Just a interesting artcile about FFXI (and XIV)

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Beastmaster was intended to be a solo job, primarily. I'll have you know that just for fun, I made a group of RDM BRD BST BST PUP PUP once versus Greater Colibri. We had a blast. It's just the fact that, like it's been so many times now, people are lazy and rely on the cookie-cutter far too much.

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You can argue here that the cookie cutter in this party was that: healer, DPS, tank (pets would tank). or, you can argue that the cookie cutter here was that you had a RDM healer. Why can't you have a WHM or SCH healer? Hell, even a SMN healer should be as effective as a RDM healer.

Balance... just sayin.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

honestly if one party make up is way easier... people are going to gravitate towards that and shun the other classes
Knowing that people aren't going to change... the fights could be made to encourage more varied groupings of classes

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How is SE and/or design responsible for what you and others simply negate to do? You two both seem like the victims of a vicious cycle and train of thought: I got quick invites on Samurai, (because everyone thinks it's the best in all situations), and slow to non-existent invites on other jobs, thereby re-inforcing your belief that the jobs are imbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Benediction

You can argue here that the cookie cutter in this party was that: healer, DPS, tank (pets would tank). or, you can argue that the cookie cutter here was that you had a RDM healer. Why can't you have a WHM or SCH healer? Hell, even a SMN healer should be as effective as a RDM healer.

Balance... just sayin.

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because then THAT would require some seriously innovative game design...
And the cost effective approach is to be only as innovative as you need to be to pull in as many subs as possible
i.e. developers want to put in less effort and yet appeal to more people
Thats why so many games clone a certain MMO

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Originally Posted by Xoo

How is SE and/or design responsible for what you and others simply negate to do? You two both seem like the victims of a vicious cycle and train of thought: I got quick invites on Samurai, (because everyone thinks it's the best in all situations), and slow to non-existent invites on other jobs, thereby re-inforcing your belief that the jobs are imbalanced.

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whether its the chicken or the egg... its got to stop somewhere...
And we are more likely to see a design change than a change in the mindset of players everywhere

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Originally Posted by Benediction

You can argue here that the cookie cutter in this party was that: healer, DPS, tank (pets would tank). or, you can argue that the cookie cutter here was that you had a RDM healer. Why can't you have a WHM or SCH healer? Hell, even a SMN healer should be as effective as a RDM healer.

Balance... just sayin.

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I didn't say you couldn't, but obviously SCH WHM or SMN would not have been great in this situation. A WHM (SCH SMN) NIN THF RNG COR SAM could make it most excellently. By the way, Summoner is a pet class and was never really intended on playing the main heal role.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

How is SE and/or design responsible for what you and others simply negate to do? You two both seem like the victims of a vicious cycle and train of thought: I got quick invites on Samurai, (because everyone thinks it's the best in all situations), and slow to non-existent invites on other jobs, thereby re-inforcing your belief that the jobs are imbalanced.

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lol sure it might be reinforced that way, but how many times have you been in a party (that you didn't form) and undesirable job vs desirable job were seeking and the leader (obviously) picked the diserable job? Your scope of reference seem to be only on what you experienced through forming parties, rather than step back and see the overall system.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

I didn't say you couldn't, but obviously SCH WHM or SMN would not have been great in this situation. A WHM (SCH SMN) NIN THF RNG COR SAM could make it most excellenty. By the way, Summoner is a pet class and was never really intended on playing the main heal role.

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lol this is pretty funny...

Why's that?

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Originally Posted by Rydin

because then THAT would require some seriously innovative game design...
And the cost effective approach is to be only as innovative as you need to be to pull in as many subs as possible
i.e. developers want to put in less effort and yet appeal to more people
Thats why so many games clone a certain MMO

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Several other MMO's did it, I'm sure SE could do it as well.

Cost effective or not... the amount of effort you put into your work has no bearing on how much you'll be paid at the end. Put in a little or a lot... you're still going to get paid for any work you do. But your effort has an effect on whether your product is attractive to subscribers.

So, put in a lot of effort > innovative product > sales for the company > recieve a promotion or fame > more money for you

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Originally Posted by Benediction

Several other MMO's did it, I'm sure SE could do it as well.

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yea... they can... but I don't know if they will

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Having certain classes be unusable is the opposite of depth...

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Not necessarily, just like in the shooter genre, some weapons work better than others in certain situations and yet they can still be pretty deep in terms of execution because you could either embrace the weakness and try to overcome it or just cop out and pull out a rocket launcher.

The former (embracing and trying to overcome weakness) is what depth is, using what's given to you and utilizing it in different ways and situations, as in making you think. The latter, pulling out a rocket launcher, is what FFXIV and almost all new MMOs are like, no thinking and just plain facerolling.

For example in FFXI the only balance issue in terms of jobs were player contrived because humans in general want the easiest way out and quickest way to things, which is why when ToAU rolled around and people found out Colibri were the next best thing, guess who they turned to after years of "LOL GTFO MY GAME YOU GIMP?" That's right, Dragoons. You know what changed between 2004 and 2006 for Dragoon? Absolutely nothing that redefined the job.

That is what creates imbalance, you didn't have to target colibris as there were plenty of other targets from even 2002 that made a viable camp, but because ToAU was easier and quicker, people went to that instead.

So as you said, people will gravitate to one thing and it doesn't matter what the developer does, the players are the ones who can and will always shoehorn things, even when you had absolute freedom with your classes in XIV, it was always expected you had a, b, c, and d classes leveled for certain skills even if you didn't want to, for example DoW was always expected to have LNC, MRD and PUG skills at bare minimum, as well as DoW spells like Protect, Stoneskin and Cures for certain situations.

So no matter what happens, there will always be an "imbalance" as long as there's humans playing this game.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

yea... they can... but I don't know if they will

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Well, I guess that's why some of us are here because we hope that SE will do that.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

stuff

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Well, as you said that's assuming that classes are balanced... so yeah people will gravitate to something easy or popular. Like you said, it's just human nature.

But the focus is to make them balanced to give that freedom. You can only do so much with what you are given with.

Sure I can go to parties and present myself as a SMN healer (with the system that SMN is given with), but how effective would I be compared to a RDM? I guess I could put in more effort to be almost as effective... but if I want to be a healer, I'd rather go to a job that takes less effort to be more effective.

You can really tell the reading comprehension of this forum sometimes. When he said "forced partying" is a bad thing, he meant, someday you sat with your flag up, YOU WERE paying for a game, that you could not actually play at the time. You start the game when the population is lower, eff u, you won't get crap done. Now its not like that, and I hate the new version of XI. But they never marketed XI or XIV outside of Japan that much, which meant new players were low, there wasn't always a base for the leveling you need. Pre level sync you had to have a static to level up, and everyone knows there's that one dick in the static who levels up sneaky without you all the time just to ruin exp.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

You can really tell the reading comprehension of this forum sometimes. When he said "forced partying" is a bad thing, he meant, someday you sat with your flag up, YOU WERE paying for a game, that you could not actually play at the time. You start the game when the population is lower, eff u, you won't get crap done. Now its not like that, and I hate the new version of XI. But they never marketed XI or XIV outside of Japan that much, which meant new players were low, there wasn't always a base for the leveling you need. Pre level sync you had to have a static to level up, and everyone knows there's that one dick in the static who levels up sneaky without you all the time just to ruin exp.

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Thumbs down for lazy people.

HEY EVERYONE! I'M ONLINE! SHOW ME THE MONEY!!

(And lol @"Had to have a static group to level up" ... just lol.

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Originally Posted by Benediction

No, it's definitely a design flaw. The classes were way too unbalanced; mostly showing their bias by favouring Samurai and barely providing effective healers other than White Mage or Red Mage. For the longest time, Dragoon was at the bottom of the list of jobs to invite to groups.

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I agree with you in principle, but at the same time this is a Final Fantasy title. I'll give you an example from FF X. Auron was a great DD vs hard shelled opponents, but vs. flan you used Lulu's magic spells, for fast oponents you used Tidus, and vs. flyers you used Wakka. In X if you wanted to clear the harder boss fights you used a specific party setup and some characters didn't get used except maybe once to steal or to learn a spell.

When they created the class balance in XI they were just doing what FF games have always done in my experience. Up front I will admit I haven't played them all. In XI what was frustrating was you spent months leveling and gearing 1 job just to find out you needed another job for one particular fight, or that in endgame you had to level a wanted job to get gear for an unwanted one.

As I see it class distinction must be there in a FF game, but big events should have content for all classes and jobs. It will be interesting to see Hamlet defense because this will be the first event content that is made for DoL, DoH classes in addition to DoW, DoM classes. If they pull this off it's a sign of things to come when we get real endgame content.

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Originally Posted by Xoo
Beastmaster was intended to be a solo job, primarily. I'll have you know that just for fun, I made a group of RDM BRD BST BST PUP PUP once versus Greater Colibri. We had a blast. It's just the fact that, like it's been so many times now, people are lazy and rely on the cookie-cutter far too much.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

honestly if one party make up is way easier... people are going to gravitate towards that and shun the other classes
Knowing that people aren't going to change... the fights could be made to encourage more varied groupings of classes

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you mean kinda like how Ifrit is Gla con con thm thm thm thm thm or moogle is gla con con thm arc arc arc arc ?

Xoo you need to take a step back at look at how the player base at large operates. Player will choose the path of least resistance and stick with it in what ever they do.

Can Ifrit be defeated with a variety of set ups? Yep. is it easier? Nope. Are people open to it? mmm.... Not as much as you think. How long would you stay in an Ifrit PT if you set up was Gla Con Con Pgl Lnc Mar Arc Thm and it was taking 20+ mins to kill, or was a very hairy fight? 2/3 fiights tops?

It was the same in XI. And just so you know, I just didn;t sit aroudn in Jeuno waiting for an invite to come my way. I would actively recruit for parties. In fact the majority of my progressiion came from me forming my own parties. It was RARE that i would get an invite as a drg. And of course i'm talkign about the time before ToAU, and merit parties. I'm talkign about CoP and prior.

So you can chalk it up to players being lazy if you want, but there are things SE can do to balance the content to the classes.

for example. It's not that melee are poor performers in damage output on ifrit. It's the fact that in order for melee to be within attack range they are also in sear range and get hit often by it. then the fact that to keep up damage output combos are needed but it becomes too dangerous to perform those combos after a certain point on ifrit.

The solution: ranged attackers with high damage potential without the need of positional combos. Consequently this is the very reason why Arc is prefered over melee in moogle figth as well.

Design flaw or player laziness? I'm leaning more toward design flaw.

Fairly, I don't need to take a step back and look at anything. Firstly, the game in subject was FFXI. Secondly, what the hell does attack distance (Sear) have to do with job balancing? Thirdly, yet again, what does animation lock have to do with the price of tea in China?

And, I've played through Ifrit with all sorts of jobs on wins, losses and everything in between. It doesn't bother me to lose - even if a lot.

Groups who go with the most efficient setup are weak because they take the path of least resistance. Fine for pickup groups where you don't know what to expect from its members. Or, it could mean you're the type of player that wants to blaze through everything without knowing what can be done and probably could care less.

Anyhow, regarding FFXIV and everything outside of Darkhold/Ifrit/Moogle, with the exception of Gladiator and Conjurer, it really doesn't make a damn what you fill the gaps in with as every battle will consume the same minute amount of time. With this game, I think the jobs could stand a few more defining characteristics.

Oh how I miss the days of forced grouping. Now i'm forced to endure this.....torture.

I agree with the article dude.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Fairly, I don't need to take a step back and look at anything. Firstly, the game in subject was FFXI. Secondly, what the hell does attack distance (Sear) have to do with job balancing? Thirdly, yet again, what does animation lock have to do with the price of tea in China?

And, I've played through Ifrit with all sorts of jobs on wins, losses and everything in between. It doesn't bother me to lose - even if a lot.

Groups who go with the most efficient setup are weak because they take the path of least resistance. Fine for pickup groups where you don't know what to expect from its members. Or, it could mean you're the type of player that wants to blaze through everything without knowing what can be done and probably could care less.

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Are you F'ing kidding me?

1) Pgl and Mar requite an extreamly close attack position to perform AA to gain TP. w/o TP they can't output the damage. Sear will slowly dwindle down thier HP which will require either a mage to heal or the DD to heal themselves which reduces their damage output.

2) Animation lock is the HARDEST part of Ifrit. in order for a melee to keep up with the damage they need to do 3 step combos. It becomes extreamly dangerous after hell fire to the point that risking death isn't worth it.

3) THms can 2 step their thunder combo for 700+ damage, while remaining at range and not having to worry about animation lock as much as a melee.

the content isn't balance to the classes.

Just because you can defeat the content with any of the classes = balance. It should be just a difficult for a mana burn PT to clear ifrit as it is for a melee burn if it were balanced.

Expect incoming nerfs to base magic potency. Or mobs that build resistance to one type of damage if used excessively.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Are you F'ing kidding me?

1) Pgl and Mar requite an extreamly close attack position to perform AA to gain TP. w/o TP they can't output the damage. Sear will slowly dwindle down thier HP which will require either a mage to heal or the DD to heal themselves which reduces their damage output.

2) Animation lock is the HARDEST part of Ifrit. in order for a melee to keep up with the damage they need to do 3 step combos. It becomes extreamly dangerous after hell fire to the point that risking death isn't worth it.

3) THms can 2 step their thunder combo for 700+ damage, while remaining at range and not having to worry about animation lock as much as a melee.

the content isn't balance to the classes.

Just because you can defeat the content with any of the classes = balance. It should be just a difficult for a mana burn PT to clear ifrit as it is for a melee burn if it were balanced.

Expect incoming nerfs to base magic potency. Or mobs that build resistance to one type of damage if used excessively.

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No, I'm not fucking kidding. You're equating the particulars of a single NM's abilities/nuisances to job balance.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

No, I'm not fucking kidding. You're equating the particulars of a single NM's abilities/nuisances to job balance.

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the content isn't balanced to the classes

the content isn't balanced to the classes

the content isn't balanced to the classes

the content isn't balanced to the classes

the content isn't balanced to the classes

Class balance has always been an issue with SE. People were always flocking to the flavor of the month job on FFXI, which would then get some nerfs and people would complain. Sad to say that FFXI and now XIV has usually had a history of something is easier to do with X so we only want to take X to do it. You can do it with Y but it just makes it harder so lets just take X.

Oh, it isn't? Then why don't you stop referring to Ifrit alone as the basis for your argument?

HOLD THE PHONE! IFRIT'S AOE BROKE THE JOBS!

EDIT: Can anyone out there with a parser vouch that either PGL or MRD can = / > THM damage? I can't say firsthand, but I'm sure it's been done time and time again. I'd be surprised otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

EDIT: Can anyone out there with a parser vouch that either PGL or MRD can = / > THM damage? I can't say firsthand, but I'm sure it's been done time and time again. I'd be surprised otherwise.

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My ls kills Ifrit faster when I am on thm than whem I am on marauder. That's as close as I can come. My ls doesn't stop me from coming marauder if that's what I am playing.

P.S. you might want to remove or at least abbreviate the cus word from your post above before someone reports it to a moderator.

Batraal aoe ghost dmg preventing Melee from actively taking part in a large portion of the fight

I haven't been into moogle myself, but i know the community at large prefers stacking archers because they don't have the positional modifiers to complete their combos. so along with staying at range to avoid AOE they also keep high damage output with their 3 step combos.

Again I'm not saying that it's impossible to win using other tactics. But clearly the content isn't balanced to the jobs when 1 class can out perform another in the limited major content that is available.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Batraal aoe ghost dmg preventing Melee from actively taking part in a large portion of the fight

I haven't been into moogle myself, but i know the community at large prefers stacking archers because they don't have the positional modifiers to complete their combos. so along with staying at range to avoid AOE they also keep high damage output with their 3 step combos.

Again I'm not saying that it's impossible to win using other tactics. But clearly the content isn't balanced to the jobs when 1 class can out perform another in the limited major content that is available.

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Dude. Dude. DUDE. In all seriousness, you're toppling your own argument with the points you're bringing up. You say THM is best for Ifrit; Archer's best for Moogle, etc. OK, do you really need an NM for every job out there to say that they're balanced? The strengths are proven in the abilities found in the jobs, their exclusives, and NOT NOT NOT from the situations they get involved in.

It's as basic as no class is going to out-cure a CON. No class is going to out-nuke a THM. No class is going to out-parry a MRD. No class is going to match the defense of a GLA. No class is going to endure like a PGL. No class is going to strike first and hard like an ARC. No class is going to out-poke a LNC.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you were sitting around waiting for parties in XI you were doing it wrong. Any decent player was utilizing that time to do something efficient.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Class balance has always been an issue with MMORPGs.

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Fixed for accuracy. You can only do so much in terms of balance without making everyone the exact same.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Dude. Dude. DUDE. In all seriousness, you're toppling your own argument with the points you're bringing up. You say THM is best for Ifrit; Archer's best for Moogle, etc. OK, do you really need an NM for every job out there to say that they're balanced? The strengths are proven in the abilities found in the jobs, their exclusives, and NOT NOT NOT from the situations they get involved in.

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He isn't "toppling" anything. Although the triple "dude" with one capitalized seems a bit toppling.

Anyway

If you read your own post you see where you supported his point. if you notice the classes your mentioning as well are the ranged classes. Thats where the majority of the discussion of balance, intentional or unintentional, is based.

Your LNC reference was a little on the stupid side. The CoN reference was pointlessly redundent due to the fact that we hae no other healing class, and only CON can utilize the "trait" for healing. PGL would seem more fitting to be made reference to there evasion, as I see it MRD and GLA by far out "endure" PGL.

Anyway. Like it or not, due to CON/THM/ARC ranged abilities, and the manner in which the raids are designed at this point, gives them a great advantage. Do we need an NM for every job, no, of coarse not. One that DOESN"T greatly favor the the ability to stay at a ranged distance, on the other hand.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Fixed for accuracy. You can only do so much in terms of balance without making everyone the exact same.

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We are not discussing all MMO's. Also, balancing is a far greater issue in FFXIV in my experience, then is it in other MMOs.

You sir, Coglin, have not made one bit of sense in your post. Neither have you spelled 8/10 words correctly. All I took from it was that Thaumaturge and Archer are ranged attackers. The rest is wrought full of opinion.

(Posting as Kaetara Sagitta)

I have to agree with Xoo. And I have to ask Benediction why, in the name of all that is holy, should a SMN healer be as effective as a RDM healer, or a SCH healer, or a WHM healer? First off, SMN has no native curing skill apart from what they can manage with their Blood Pacts. Therefore, taking in context from a Lv75 cap, why do you think for any reason that a Lv37 WHM should perform healing duties as well as a Lv75 RDM? If they could, THAT would be unbalanced.

Every job should have some sense of self identity that sets them apart from other similar jobs. If all Marauders and Pugilists and Lancers were alike, then what incentive is there for a player to level one over the other except for aesthetic appeal? Every job needs to have strengths to make them appealing, and weaknesses to offset their strengths that make other jobs appealing.

Also, Xoo is making the most valid point: Many different party schemes can work for things like Ifrit and Moogle, but the players have restricted it to where the easy way is the only right way. People won't try alternative setups that use Pugilists and such because the nuances of the fights make them less appealing and more troublesome. Rather than allow the Pugilists and such to face those obstacles and try to surmount them, they tell the Pugilists and such that they need to level an entirely different job to receive an invite. This isn't the game's fault. It's the players that make those "house rules".

Why should a Pugilist or Marauder perform as well at range as an Archer? What point then would there be to play Archer?

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Originally Posted by Kyri

(Posting as Kaetara Sagitta)

I have to agree with Xoo. And I have to ask Benediction why, in the name of all that is holy, should a SMN healer be as effective as a RDM healer, or a SCH healer, or a WHM healer? First off, SMN has no native curing skill apart from what they can manage with their Blood Pacts. Therefore, taking in context from a Lv75 cap, why do you think for any reason that a Lv37 WHM should perform healing duties as well as a Lv75 RDM? If they could, THAT would be unbalanced.

Every job should have some sense of self identity that sets them apart from other similar jobs. If all Marauders and Pugilists and Lancers were alike, then what incentive is there for a player to level one over the other except for aesthetic appeal? Every job needs to have strengths to make them appealing, and weaknesses to offset their strengths that make other jobs appealing.

Also, Xoo is making the most valid point: Many different party schemes can work for things like Ifrit and Moogle, but the players have restricted it to where the easy way is the only right way. People won't try alternative setups that use Pugilists and such because the nuances of the fights make them less appealing and more troublesome. Rather than allow the Pugilists and such to face those obstacles and try to surmount them, they tell the Pugilists and such that they need to level an entirely different job to receive an invite. This isn't the game's fault. It's the players that make those "house rules".

Why should a Pugilist or Marauder perform as well at range as an Archer? What point then would there be to play Archer?

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which is why there needs to be content that allows each class to shine
And I don't mean each particular boss should be geared more towards a certain class... I mean each boss fight should have objectives that include every class so it isn't necessary to have every class to complete it, but the more variety you have in your party, the easier the fight will be

Oh, hello pretty kitty! :D

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Originally Posted by Rydin

honestly if one party make up is way easier... people are going to gravitate towards that and shun the other classes
Knowing that people aren't going to change... the fights could be made to encourage more varied groupings of classes

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Flying all the way back to page 4, let me say this.

I believe not many groups ever strayed from the norm because:

A. Few people fully understand the capabilities of all the jobs.
B. Even fewer people can form a group that is aimed at the target's weakness.
C. Fewer still don't want to lead parties.
D. Not many are willing to go out on a guinea-pig party.
E. Word gets around fast as to what produces the biggest numbers, and proven once, becomes forever instilled as just awesome enough to inhibit further experimentation.

I've honestly been through some really retarded situations. Take for instance stun-pulling Imps (Imps again!) with BLM. I can't remember exactly why I was doing this, but I was doing it to try and alleviate the fact that no other job in the party was fit to do it. It wasn't the fastest EXP I've ever seen, but it wasn't at all bad either. Nobody left or complained because of it.

(Remembered why I was doing it! I didn't like soloing, and Black Mage wasn't highly regarded on imps, so I found a way to make myself useful - Pull, Rest MP, Firaga III?, Pull.)

Without getting into all the gory details, the article is pretty spot on coming from a White Mage at English launch of FFXI. Don't really follow the FFXIV part of it though.

Different opinions, different experiences. Forced party mechanic was a definitely downer in both FFXI and EQ. (Playing a heavy support and healing role, you're dependent on it).