Ive no faith in SE/Yoshi-P when comes to balancing healers

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm also not talking about MCH, even though it was just as garbage in 3.0 and just as broken in 3.4. The way it plays in 4.0 is trash - I'm already not a fan myself of the job, but at least leveling HW MCH was better than leveling it in SB - but they've addressed that they plan to fix it. So we'll have to just see what they do.

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Real talk, I loved HW mch, unpopular opinion but give me cast bars back

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I pulled the Alphascape logs in particular because they are the best estimation of jobs being mained by dedicated players. For example, I only run 24-mans and dungeons on MCH, most people I know don't run on their mains in 24-man. And dungeons don't usually get uploaded. "People I know/play with" is obviously a limited group and anecdotal, but evidence to base an opinion on none the less. My point isn't to ascribe what other people do on jobs they merely have capped and run with occasionally, but that I don't feel that looking at the numbers from those other encounters represents Main jobs being played. For the same reason I did not look at post-Echo numbers, because people now are more willing to play jobs they hadn't. I think the Alphascape logs are the best indication of jobs being mained...

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I'll agree with you there, but jobs being mained do not represent jobs being played, and this is what the devs have to look at as it is not just end-gamers that deal with the issues present in our jobs; they are only brought more to the surface by the meta. I haven't even touched Alphascape savage with any job, let alone my main jobs, yet here I am; along with several other dissatisfied subscribers. This doesn't mean to throw out this data, but data from all encounters have to be accounted for. It's just a matter of being thorough.

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I wasn't trying to say healers are balanced now, only that they are more balanced than tanks overall...

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They're not though. Otherwise we'd be getting a 4th healer, or at least be closer to its implementation, but this couldn't be further from true.

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...there is still a glaring concern over the desire for SCH.

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The concern that should be glaring is the desire for WHM to be more on par with its healing brethren. A glaring concern should be how over-tuned AST is. SCH should be giving you the least amount of concern if I could be quite frank because it is currently the only healer that many healer mains feel is done right. If the other two healers could be designed in such a way that they are not stepping on each other and also provide unique gameplay we would not be having this conversation.

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But I don't agree on WHM. They've been the bane of tank aggro since Neo Exdeath. I was pugging god Kefka back then and had a WHM that tanked the entire 1st forsaken phase until Trine. I just let them tank, they finally popped Lucid when they ran out of MP at the beginning of trine phase lol. One of my current healers absolutely hated AST, could not stand it whatsoever (he may have not even had it fully leveled), and would only play WHM or SCH. We cleared this tier with him on SCH and later on got one of our other friends to join who was a SCH main, so my former SCH had to switch to either AST or WHM. He had no idea how to even play AST and know he's playing it anyways, almost exclusively. So, I can't agree that WHM is actually desired.

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You're using one example to come to a conclusion and blanket WHM across DCs. Why not use me then? I wouldn't bring WHM into high-end content because I feel like I would be holding the group back. I have a severe disdain for AST due to its lack of identity and being over-tuned. So I would bring my SCH, which might clue you in to its overwhelming number in the data you provided. Trust me when I say WHM is highly desired, and again the frustrations expressed by healers concerning this job is indicative of this desire. They and I want it to be better so we don't feel like the weak link in the chain.

Maybe they genuinely want to make the healing job's terrifying learning-curve; less terrifying.

I say this with respect to people and friends I've known for quite a number of years- having played primarily a healing role in previous games; like World of Warcraft; Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot; etc, - and I've watched these same friends come into Final Fantasy XIV with Healing role aspirations, and finding themselves getting frustrated with the learning curve.

It is what makes me not want to try it myself.
Healing shouldn't be difficult to learn; it should only be difficult to master.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you read what I said, I wasn't referring to Stormblood BRD but Heavensward BRD, which went from absolute garbage in 3.0 to completely broken in 3.4. Compare it to ARR BRD, which was actually nerfed because it was too strong at launch, but which played wonderfully and didn't have casttimes. There hasn't been an expansion yet where BRD wasn't radically changed (but hopefully that stops because, as I said, they got SB BRD right).

I'm also not talking about MCH, even though it was just as garbage in 3.0 and just as broken in 3.4. The way it plays in 4.0 is trash - I'm already not a fan myself of the job, but at least leveling HW MCH was better than leveling it in SB - but they've addressed that they plan to fix it. So we'll have to just see what they do.

Also, it's 2% Crit; not 3%. And that's not why SB BRD is the best iteration of the job that BRD has seen over the course of FFXIV 2.0's life, nor is it the Repertoire mechanic. It's the way the job plays: smoothly, while actually incorporating its songs into its rotation and not costing it 10% personal damage to actually support its party members.


Not sure what you're trying to say, if I'm being honest.

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I mean it’s simple it shows you it’s either totally crap or good there is mostly no in between, the same with Astro from launch almost to heavenward end. That’s the reason I don’t trust square it’s just that simple.

That’s more or less the reason what I mean with rebalancing but it’s more or less balancing in general. Yeah it’s still playable, but if it is a joy to play the job is a completely different story and if you want to play high end content and your job is so bad people want you to switch to another job.

Now hold on a minute here. I told you SE had a horrible track record with healers and balance. You responded:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

They also had a horrible track record with regards to BRD, but Stormblood BRD turned out fine. More than fine, actually. I don’t see the need to worry until the changes are actually announced and I can see for myself how it may impact the jobs.

Ah, but I forget. That sort of practice isn’t allowed here!

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To which I responded with:

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

But what about MCH? I'm actually legitimately curious with that one, I've heard different things, and I've leveled mine but only really in HoH.

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NOW you're saying:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm also not talking about MCH, even though it was just as garbage in 3.0 and just as broken in 3.4. The way it plays in 4.0 is trash - I'm already not a fan myself of the job, but at least leveling HW MCH was better than leveling it in SB - but they've addressed that they plan to fix it. So we'll have to just see what they do.

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So... what's this about us needing to be confident in balance? Sure your job may be fine, but the job it should be balance with is described by you as "plays like trash" That... doesn't really seem like very good balance, then... does it?

And if we're being told that we can't have a new job due to balance issues, and they're acknowledging that MCH has issues that need addressing, why are they adding a new ranged dps? I mean, SCH and AST play fine, it's just the WHM that needs severe help so... how is this situation any different?

Step 1 : Give every healer a big mitigation tool for savage so shield isn't the only thing.

exemple :

SCH -> Shied specialist
AST -> Defensive stance instead of shield that give 10/15% damage reduc during aspected spell and 50/70% damage reduction with Collective Unconscious
WHM -> Invincible field for a short period of time in 15 yard zone.

Step 2 : Give every healer good oGCD and make any healer combinaison working well together. because end game is about oGCD more than gcd.

Step 3 : Give about the same "damage participation" to every healer and either you let balance card but give more personal DPS for WHM/SCH + utility buff or you just remove balance card and ajust.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Maybe they genuinely want to make the healing job's terrifying learning-curve; less terrifying.

I say this with respect to people and friends I've known for quite a number of years- having played primarily a healing role in previous games; like World of Warcraft; Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot; etc, - and I've watched these same friends come into Final Fantasy XIV with Healing role aspirations, and finding themselves getting frustrated with the learning curve.

It is what makes me not want to try it myself.
Healing shouldn't be difficult to learn; it should only be difficult to master.

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That's interesting - I would take the opposite view.

If I were suggesting a game to someone who wants to learn how to heal I would suggest FFXIV over WoW.

But of course, it all comes down to personal preference/experience - but certainly at entry level FFXIV's healing mechanics are relatively simple compared to the often manic WoW model.
Having to get into the mindset of DPSing and healing may be more of a shock to the player than the actual base mechanics - but the pace of FFXIV (and the GCD), to my mind, make it an easier transition.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Now hold on a minute here. I told you SE had a horrible track record with healers and balance.

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Your mistake here is that you are assuming I meant balance between BRD and MCH. I was just talking about SE’s track record with BRD alone, not comparing it to other jobs in the role. OP seems concerned about WHM—but the developers have shown that they CAN take a job that has poor design (e.g., HW BRD) and make it into something decent (e.g., SB BRD). We don’t know what they’re going to do. We may find ourselves surprised, or we may not. I don’t see the need to get upset about what we don’t even know, though.




I think their excuse for not having a new healer job is weak—because the same could be applied to both tanks and the physical ranged, so they sort of contradict themselves with it. I honestly think they just don’t know how to design a fourth healer without it being like AST, where it’s a hybrid of the existing healers—though I would prefer to see a melee healer that is more “advanced” in that it heals based on damage dealt, but until they let go of their idea that “healers don’t have to DPS”, we won’t see any sort of advanced healer job like that. But this is all an aside; I never mentioned anything about it.

You seem to think that I think things are fine as they are. I do not. I’m just saying there’s no need to get all riled up before they even announce what’s going to happen, and that’s what OP and a lot of others seem to be doing.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Your mistake here is that you are assuming I meant balance between BRD and MCH. I was just talking about SE’s track record with BRD alone, not comparing it to other jobs in the role. OP seems concerned about WHM—but the developers have shown that they CAN take a job that has poor design (e.g., HW BRD) and make it into something decent (e.g., SB BRD). We don’t know what they’re going to do. We may find ourselves surprised, or we may not. I don’t see the need to get upset about what we don’t even know, though.

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Uh... balance usually implies in comparrison with other classes. I mean... how do you balance just one thing? You need something to balance it with. Sure, BRD is a great class. So is RDM. I love RDM. But what has been bothering us and what we are worried about is the balance between the three healers and their competitiveness for static/raid groups in the raid tier content. This is what a lot of us have little confidence in and while the OP does have a very WHM bias, as do I somewhat since it is my preferred healer, the lack of confidence has been resounded by quite a few healers on these forums, so it's not just him/her or me.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Uh... balance usually implies in comparrison with other classes. I mean... how do you balance just one thing? You need something to balance it with. Sure, BRD is a great class. So is RDM. I love RDM. But what has been bothering us and what we are worried about is the balance between the three healers and their competitiveness for static/raid groups in the raid tier content. This is what a lot of us have little confidence in and while the OP does have a very WHM bias, as do I somewhat since it is my preferred healer, the lack of confidence has been resounded by quite a few healers on these forums, so it's not just him/her or me.

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Again. Your mistake was assuming I was talking about balance in the first place. I was simply talking about design.


If they announce Secret of the Lily III come May, rage all you want. I just don’t see the point in raging until we actually know what’s going to happen.

Problem is WHM suffers from both job design and balance problems (one leading into another). Comparing to DPS balance is ok but healing is a thing by itself.

The current endgame of healers is to... well, not heal and if you do, it's preferably in a way that won't sacrifice GCDs that could be used for DPS. So they can address WHM job problems by reducing its clipping issues and boosting a bit its oGCD healing, but that won't automatically make it balanced with Earthly Star, Indom, Fae Union, or Lightspeed, Malefic and Ruin II mobility. And it won't give it a Meta spot when AST and SCH have Cards and Stratagems.
Unless there is a kick in the healing design, WHM needs a job fix and party utility. I don't believe a huge pDPS boost for WHM would make up with the rDPS lost by having a WHM in a team.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Again. Your mistake was assuming I was talking about balance in the first place. I was simply talking about design.

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Balance is the topic of this thread. It's literally right in the topic.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Problem is WHM suffers from both job design and balance problems (one leading into another). Comparing to DPS balance is ok but healing is a thing by itself.

The current endgame of healers is to... well, not heal and if you do, it's preferably in a way that won't sacrifice GCDs that could be used for DPS. So they can address WHM job problems by reducing its clipping issues and boosting a bit its oGCD healing, but that won't automatically make it balanced with Earthly Star, Indom, Fae Union, or Lightspeed, Malefic and Ruin II mobility. And it won't give it a Meta spot when AST and SCH have Cards and Stratagems.
Unless there is a kick in the healing design, WHM needs a job fix and party utility. I don't believe a huge pDPS boost for WHM would make up with the rDPS lost by having a WHM in a team.

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"Thin Air, Presence of Mind and Divine Benison are now AOE effect"
Done.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Balance is the topic of this thread. It's literally right in the topic.

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So I suppose I was off topic for discussing job design. Apologies.

Clearly, though, you're still looking to win some sort of argument, so this is my last response to you.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

That's interesting - I would take the opposite view.

If I were suggesting a game to someone who wants to learn how to heal I would suggest FFXIV over WoW.

But of course, it all comes down to personal preference/experience - but certainly at entry level FFXIV's healing mechanics are relatively simple compared to the often manic WoW model.
Having to get into the mindset of DPSing and healing may be more of a shock to the player than the actual base mechanics - but the pace of FFXIV (and the GCD), to my mind, make it an easier transition.

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Hmmm, i feel like you may have helped spark a bit of Healer interest in me. At the very least- i could use my Squadron to see what it is like. :O

EDIT: I believe I've just always been terrified of Healing in a MMorpg, because it's the idea of being responsible for everyone in a group/party/raid, and i think i would hate myself if i allowed someone's character to die. D:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

So I suppose I was off topic for discussing job design. Apologies.

Clearly, though, you're still looking to win some sort of argument, so this is my last response to you.

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No, sorry if I came across that way. I was just confused since you were saying things that seemed inconsistent to me, especially since your initial response to me was quite aggressive.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Hmmm, i feel like you may have helped spark a bit of Healer interest in me. At the very least- i could use my Squadron to see what it is like. :O

EDIT: I believe I've just always been terrified of Healing in a MMorpg, because it's the idea of being responsible for everyone in a group/party/raid, and i think i would hate myself if i allowed someone's character to die. D:

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As long as you don't spam your most expensive heal when it isn't exactly needed and run to the tank whenever stray adds target you (and come to terms that stupidity and one-shots can never be healed), you should be okay. Our job is to manage unavoidable damage as well as keep the tanks in good standing. Don't waste your time worrying about people who constantly take super avoidable damage (not counting first timers) or die 8 million times to things they shouldn't have because you won't have mana to spend on the fight or smarter allies if you do.

Also, get comfortable with Lucid Dreaming, especially if your mp is low for the refresh.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

No, sorry if I came across that way. I was just confused since you were saying things that seemed inconsistent to me, especially since your initial response to me was quite aggressive.

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I think the point was that OP doesn't have faith that whm they will change for the better; but that's the exact sentiment brds had back with bowmage. We were wrong then, we can be wrong now.

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Originally Posted by lordcruxis

I think the point was that OP doesn't have faith that whm they will change for the better; but that's the exact sentiment brds had back with bowmage. We were wrong then, we can be wrong now.

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That makes a lot more sense, but healers have always had a problem balancing between the three. This is why I brought up MCH which I know some people have compained about a lot. I don't really play my MCH so I was legitimately asking. Bard might be fine now, but MCH isn't which means the two jobs are not well balanced, at least as far as I am aware. From what I understand it's more a rotation and lag issue with MCH than power issues. SE tends to fix one class to the detriment of another so even if WHM comes out fine in 5.0 that doesn't mean that SCH or AST won't get the red-headed step-child treatment and we'll be right back to where we started when 6.0 comes around.

If Yoshida plans on homogenizing the classes like some of his statements have implied... that could be just as bad. Then you'll just have 3 generic healers with 2 having some sort of variety of sprinkles or toppings. Which... doesn't sound all that appealing either. Could we be wrong? Sure. We could be. But we have been let down time and time again.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

That makes a lot more sense, but healers have always had a problem balancing between the three. This is why I brought up MCH which I know some people have compained about a lot. I don't really play my MCH so I was legitimately asking. Bard might be fine now, but MCH isn't which means the two jobs are not well balanced, at least as far as I am aware. From what I understand it's more a rotation and lag issue with MCH than power issues. SE tends to fix one class to the detriment of another so even if WHM comes out fine in 5.0 that doesn't mean that SCH or AST won't get the red-headed step-child treatment and we'll be right back to where we started when 6.0 comes around.

If Yoshida plans on homogenizing the classes like some of his statements have implied... that could be just as bad. Then you'll just have 3 generic healers with 2 having some sort of variety of sprinkles or toppings. Which... doesn't sound all that appealing either. Could we be wrong? Sure. We could be. But we have been let down time and time again.

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His comment on whm was deliberately vague, and he was hesitant to say even that. It's simply too early to say if it's something like homogenization or if it's getting rid of mechanics that aren't particularly easy to use optimally like lilies and plenary indulgence. This is, quite frankly, a wait and see situation, and I would suggest that people respect that stay of judgement.

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Originally Posted by CelestaRosa

I find it funny that its astralogin players who are supportive yoshi P. cant even began to understand the stress the fury white mage mains feel at current state. they dont know what it feels like getting shaft every expansion in final fantasy 14

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You need to calm down. You obviously don’t know what us Astros had to deal with when we were first added, and it took an expansion to get buffs (too many buffs if you ask me). We didn’t always get garunteed spots in static’s. You’re confusing us with sch in that regard. We get how it feels, we were in a worse position than you are now. At least you were always playable, the lack of a proper identity doesn’t change that. And I don’t understand what our starting level has to do with anything?

I mained whm in ARR, and even after maining Ast, I still have played whm quite a lot. I totally get the gripes whm mains have, as I’ve experienced them over the years. Stop throwing insults at us because you’re angry. Like it’s our fault when it’s not. We didn’t ask to get buffed into oblivion. We didn’t ask for white mage to be put on the bench. We just wanted to be fixed considering how rough we were. Don’t forget sch has been the king this whole time, always having a spot in static’s. Astros know your pain all too well. Getting buffed doesn’t change that.

This hate towards my preferred job from whms has been exhausting. I’m sorry you guys have had a rough time thanks to the devs, but calling us names, wishing us to be nerfed into the ground, trying to get buffed way more than we ever did is not the answer. We are all healers, and we should be trying to strive for balance, not to throw certain healers under the bus because you haven’t gotten what you’ve needed. It not our fault so stop acting like it is. We all enjoy healing, so we should be trying to get it so we are all desirable without anyone being broken. I’m of the opinion we should all be happy and useful. Attacking each other and asking for changes that’ll break the job balance more than it is isn’t the answer. I’d like to see another healer job added within this game’s lifespan.

So seriously calm down and start thinking rationally. I don’t have a ton of faith in the dev team, but we don’t know what the changes are yet. For all we know they could’ve made some really good changes. For all we know they’ve heard our feedback and fixed us. We don’t know. Let’s save our doom and gloom for when the information does come out. Attacking others doesn’t solve anything, it’s just petty and a wasted effort, as it doesn’t solve a dang thing. I know it makes me not want to have sympathy for you.

OP, why are you starting so many threads these days? We understand that you are salty due to the condition of WHM, but I don't think you are being entirely objective, especially seeing some of your "ideas" concerning a "WHM rework".

WHM new limited job confirmed for Shadowbringers.

I don't get what the issue is. I can heal content well enough as whm. At least when I am paying attention

After the tank balance of SB no ty.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

After the tank balance of SB no ty.

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The tanks have literally never been better balanced than they are at this immediate moment. Every tank outputs roughly the same DPS and no longer have to fear fight-specific defensive options, which means no more paladin screwed out of a raid tier because they block physical and it's all magic. That isn't to say tanks don't have a slew of other problems, such as still having jacked up accessory scaling and tank stance still being a thing for some reason, but they're hardly out of whack any more. Healers on the other hand are the complete opposite, where AST is pretty much just WHM but better in every conceivable way that matters.

"Can clear content" isn't a sterling endorsement of job design, and it should never be used to justify balance.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

The tanks have literally never been better balanced than they are at this immediate moment. Every tank outputs roughly the same DPS and no longer have to fear fight-specific defensive options, which means no more paladin screwed out of a raid tier because they block physical and it's all magic. That isn't to say tanks don't have a slew of other problems, such as still having jacked up accessory scaling and tank stance still being a thing for some reason, but they're hardly out of whack any more. Healers on the other hand are the complete opposite, where AST is pretty much just WHM but better in every conceivable way that matters.

"Can clear content" isn't a sterling endorsement of job design, and it should never be used to justify balance.

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Yes balanced dmg wise isn’t balanced at all. War and pld are to strong with group utility and drk rots in a corner with his 20 % shield that mitigates less then Intervention from pld. Atleast in theory if you can stand still whm beats astro in dmg. I would understand that if drk would deal more dmg then both of them. But talking about balanced tanks when drk has not even the half of war and pld you would think it’s obviously not good.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

Yes balanced dmg wise isn’t balanced at all. War and pld are to strong with group utility and drk rots in a corner with his 20 % shield that mitigates less then Intervention from pld. Atleast in theory if you can stand still whm beats astro in dmg. I would understand that if drk would deal more dmg then both of them. But talking about balanced tanks when drk has not even the half of war and pld you would think it’s obviously not good.

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You've forgot to mention DRKs absolutely excellent self mitigation ability on magic damage fights, with dark mind with a 60s cd, its completely unmatched by the other 2, also its ability to project a blackest night onto a party member for little cost. I personally don't feel drk is lagging behind much at all atm, does more dps than pld, less than war, and is the personal mitigation tank. Whilst that does make it less desirable I wouldn't call it incredibly unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

You've forgot to mention DRKs absolutely excellent self mitigation ability on magic damage fights, with dark mind with a 60s cd, its completely unmatched by the other 2, also its ability to project a blackest night onto a party member for little cost. I personally don't feel drk is lagging behind much at all atm, does more dps than pld, less than war, and is the personal mitigation tank. Whilst that does make it less desirable I wouldn't call it incredibly unbalanced.

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Yes ofc but the normal case is that the party dies and then the tanks. Dying from tank buster is so rare because war is the go to main tank and even if it forces you, you do still have apoca and palisade for mitigation. And pld has enough for all situations. And like i did say the party rather does to apes then tanks die to tankbuster.

Writing with the handy sucks with autocorrect-.-

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

You've forgot to mention DRKs absolutely excellent self mitigation ability on magic damage fights, with dark mind with a 60s cd, its completely unmatched by the other 2, also its ability to project a blackest night onto a party member for little cost. I personally don't feel drk is lagging behind much at all atm, does more dps than pld, less than war, and is the personal mitigation tank. Whilst that does make it less desirable I wouldn't call it incredibly unbalanced.

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DRK also occupies a good position as a switch-hitter for MT or OT, since its kit isn't really impacted by either. TBN being a worse intervention only applies on a purely defensive standpoint. The difference between TBN and Intervention is that TBN directly translates into more damage, and the damage it puts out is roughly equivalent to the MP cost of the ability. In practical terms, it means TBN is weaker on a purely numeric scale, but is available every 15 seconds and effectively costs no resources. Its power as a personal mitigation tool is a bit overrated on its own, but mixed with Dark Mind in a magic fight and you shrug off tankbusters like they're nothing.

The thing about tank balance is if they can survive a fight with equal effectiveness, and their DPS is roughly the same, then they are pretty much identical from purely balance terms. The fact that they're even this close is huge progress compared to HW or ARR, which is why I don't think a fourth tank is necessarily a bad idea now. The problem with healers is just how homogenized their kits are, and how utterly dependent they all are on OGCD healing by necessity rather than the sustained healing WHM is more suited for. The most obvious solution is to dumpster the idea of a pure healer so that WHM can finally occupy a niche, and rework AST so that it isn't a stop-gap solution between Scholar and WHM. I believe healers *can* be balanced, it doesn't take a lot, the problem is if SE is going to stubbornly stick to their guns as usual rather than admitting a flawed idea and reworking it.

One slight note with regards to tank damage balance outside of raid content.

Warrior DPS in level cap dungeons is an order of magnitude higher than DRK or PLD. It's not even remotely comparable currently, rather it's something that seems to have only ever gotten worse as the game has progressed onwards.

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Originally Posted by CelestaRosa

so they can understand what it feels like have your main nerfed to oblivion.

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Well someone has pent up anger. Not that I blame you, but still.

Haven't read replies so I don't know if someone's suggested something similar, but I'd like to see Stone get a reduction in cast time to 1.5s or 2s to allow WHM to weave OGCDs, however limited theirs might be, a bit more efficiently. I'd also like to see WHM get Bravery/Faith in SHB which increases an ally's damage dealt by 10% for 15 seconds on an 80 second recast timer.

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Originally Posted by Renthas

Haven't read replies so I don't know if someone's suggested something similar, but I'd like to see Stone get a reduction in cast time to 1.5s or 2s to allow WHM to weave OGCDs, however limited theirs might be, a bit more efficiently. I'd also like to see WHM get Bravery/Faith in SHB which increases an ally's damage dealt by 10% for 15 seconds on an 80 second recast timer.

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I’m confused as to why people thinking whms are hurting in the ogcd arena

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Originally Posted by Feidam

I’m confused as to why people thinking whms are hurting in the ogcd arena

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I am genuinely confused how you can play RDM (so presumeably you understand weaving in oGCDs) but not see how WHM doesn't have a good way to generate those windows. When your choices are clip or early refresh a hot/dot those aren't acceptable choices.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I am genuinely confused how you can play RDM (so presumeably you understand weaving in oGCDs) but not see how WHM doesn't have a good way to generate those windows. When your choices are clip or early refresh a hot/dot those aren't acceptable choices.

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I get that part, however, folks are saying WHMS are limited in what ogcd’s they have. I’m mean take the person I quoted, in regards to WHM ogcds he says to allow whm to weave ogcds, how ever limited theirs maybe. That second part has nothing to do with weaving the way it is worded.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feidam

I get that part, however, folks are saying WHMS are limited in what ogcd’s they have. I’m mean take the person I quoted, in regards to WHM ogcds he says to allow whm to weave ogcds, how ever limited theirs maybe. That second part has nothing to do with weaving the way it is worded.

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Ahh. I didn't take that post in the same way. I do think it's clear WHM's have a less valuable oGCD kit but the impact of that can be mitigated by a good cohealer. I think the focus of his point was more that WHM's may have less oGCD casts than the other healers but they still don't have enough windows to use those abilities without clipping though I could be interpreting it incorrectly.

The internet is weird.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feidam

I get that part, however, folks are saying WHMS are limited in what ogcd’s they have. I’m mean take the person I quoted, in regards to WHM ogcds he says to allow whm to weave ogcds, how ever limited theirs maybe. That second part has nothing to do with weaving the way it is worded.

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It could simply be a comparison to the other healers (not including role actions, since all healers have those).

WHM oGCDs: Presence of Mind, Benediction, Assize, Asylum, Tetragrammaton, Thin Air, Divine Benison, Plenary Indulgence — 8 oGCDs

SCH oGCDs: Aetherflow, Energy Drain, Bane, Rouse, Sacred Soil, Shadow Flare, Lustrate, Indomitability, Deployment Tactics, Emergency Tactics, Dissipation, Excogitation, Chain Stratagem, Fey Union — 14 oGCDs

AST oGCDs: Lightspeed, Essential Dignity, Draw, Royal Road, Spread, Redraw, Synastry, Time Dilation, Collective Unconscious, Celestial Opposition, Earthly Star (placement and detonation if you have to manually pop it), Minor Arcana, Sleeve Draw — 13 oGCDs (plus, every time you deploy a card, that is also an oGCD move, so I guess we could say 14, technically).


Compared to the other healers, WHM has half of the oGCDs they do, and half of WHM’s oGCDs are on a significantly long cooldown (Presence of Mind, Asylum, Benediction, and Thin Air). Meanwhile, AST does card stuff (at the very least) every 30 seconds; and SCH manages Aetherflow stacks on a 45-second rotation, so they ideally use an oGCD every 15 secs.