Devs, Stick to your guns or remove Viera all together.

Boggles my mind people are using the "my lore" excuse to justify this.

The situation with Ronso/Viera absolutely reeks of, 'we didn't have enough time to finish this'. So I wouldn't at all be surprised if they did, or didn't get proper counter-parts of the other sex.

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Originally Posted by Videra

The situation with Ronso/Viera absolutely reeks of, 'we didn't have enough time to finish this'. So I wouldn't at all be surprised if they did, or didn't get proper counter-parts of the other sex.

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It feels like they wanted to please two different camps at the same time, the one who wanted Viera and the market for furry races? I guess. In turn they didn't really please any of the sides 100%. Both are bummed out by the limitation and to hear they even have gear limitation is like another punch in the face. They could have said okay no Viera we do the Ronso, case closed. People wouldn't be happy but at least they could have made peace with that decision and the dev team could have taken their time making a full new race. Or do the same with Viera and said; that is the new race, end of story. They tried to compromise here and it just didn't worked for most people.

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Originally Posted by Videra

The situation with Ronso/Viera absolutely reeks of, 'we didn't have enough time to finish this'. So I wouldn't at all be surprised if they did, or didn't get proper counter-parts of the other sex.

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It's not likely they'll make ip the time later though, it's just a huge workload they're not currently prepared to invest in.

Adding a new race with different proportions (which these do have despite people parroting "its just a hyur with ears/roe with lion head") means remodelling all prior equipment, and creates an additional variant for all future equipment.
It's why they said we'd only be getting one more race.

So they had one more race to fit in the game, but there were two races fans have been asking for, Viera and Ronso.

They made a choice to attempt to please everyone, which is obviously impossible when you can't provide everything.

Comments about "male bunnies are weird" or "the lore says..." are red herrings. They were probably factors in the decision process to some extent, lending more weight to them thinking 'Viera&Hrothgar' was a better choice than 'Just Viera' but not the main issue.

Okay, I disagree with people attacking, making personal insults etc. I also know this is normal for a forum for an MMORPG and the internet in general, so it's not a Viera/Hrothgar outrage exclusive. However, it's not really a healthy way to get a point across. I will also add that the OP has been pretty inflammatory with their choice in threads. The reactions are expected when you take a trollish approach. The cynical part of me says that was on purpose to get a reaction so he can say "there, see!"

Anyway, to address points. People keep bringing up lore. This is not Final Fantasy XII, even if it is connected to it on some level, we're not even in that time period. Cultures change, they evolve, circumstances change, people find ways of making peace, whilst there are those who believe in sticking to old ways, but there are often times when there are forward thinkers who bring change, sometimes fringe groups form and build societies of their own. Some may remain stuck to the old ways, but it's plausible that there are those who do not. In lore we have the Mhachi and Amdapori as absolute sworn enemies in the War of the Magi and yet for them to introduce Red Mage they added to the lore a fringe group of Mhachi and Amdapori who set aside their differences and formed a new group. We have beast tribes forming fringe groups so that they're not hostile so that they can give us beast quests. It's not ludicrous for Viera fringe groups to be a thing, when it seems the choice method for SE to accommodate new things.

It also did not matter when it was lore than only the warrior of light was the exception to the rule on White Mages and we have a lot of White Mages running around. This was a hot topic in the early days in the RP community.

We also have Feols in Ivalice lore, the easiest possible cop out they could use is to introduce Feol as the subrace choice and genderlock for non-Feol Viera. And boom, nobody can complain about lore. Though I still think "but lore says no" is a bit of a cop-out. But if SE's hands were tied on this, then make Foel a subrace. Every race has two types in the game after all. Like Raen and Xaela, Seekers and Keepers and so on.

The lore argument doesn't make sense once we look at Hrothgar, because they're a new race and a new race based on a race in another Final Fantasy game where there is an abundance of females. So I am not sure what lore they're pulling from to genderlock this.

We're also talking about a game that's written BS lore to accommodate a whole range of out of place things, often to favour marketing, like Lightning Returns and Monster Hunter World. Now we have Final Fantasy XV and Nier on the way. And I'm surprised we've yet to see Final Fantasy XIV: Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry Series.

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Originally Posted by Videra

The situation with Ronso/Viera absolutely reeks of, 'we didn't have enough time to finish this'. So I wouldn't at all be surprised if they did, or didn't get proper counter-parts of the other sex.

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I think the community would be more understanding if they admitted this. Development takes time and effort and when you have deadlines to meet, some things won't get done. I'm a developer in another industry, we just communicate what we can and can't get done for a deadline and if we intend to add something in future, we'll be transparent to help manage expectations and avoid complaints like "but you didn't add this on this patch, we need that" and when could be coming in the next patch.

It also gives them room to say either:
"If there is enough demand we'll pool resources to make it happen"
or
"We didn't have time, but we will add them in the future."

Instead they've gone with, "we've not done this because of the lore". Which is pretty final.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

So since we're gonna be disrespecting the lore just so male Viera can be playable (excluding Hrothgar for now because we don't know what lore reason they have to not be playable yet), can this mean other Beastmen like Kobolds, Vanu Vanu, Amalj'aa, etc can be playable?

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The lore for Male Viera is basically "they exist and like to keep out of sight". You don't need to break that lore to say "other than that one Echo-bearing guy who left the forest and became the WoL". Other PCs are not canon maybe other than the number of warm bodies you go into certain duties with.
In comparison, playing as an Amalj'aa would be noticeably more difficult because you're not even allowed to get close to a city state without being attacked. The lore the devs hide behind for male Viera and the lore keeping beastmen from being playable are not comparable in the least.

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At least with the Beastmen, we know they exist.

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We also know male Viera exist, lord knows they spent enough time worldbuilding them in the Ivalice raids. Fran outright said "they're here, watching, and the only reason they haven't torn you apart yet is that I'm here with you".

The SDS Fenrir also went against lore initially but then lore got over itself and the SDS managed to find itself in the Mogstation.

As for Viera it was said that in the 24 man raids are not in the same version of Ivalice as the one in FFXII.

Sure I would have like to have the option of a male Viera but I am not overly disappointed about it. I just don't like that they are using lore as a shield when it is obvious that it is not the reason.

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Originally Posted by New_Game_Plus

Boggles my mind people are using the "my lore" excuse to justify this.

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Just because a vase has cracks in it, it doesn't mean you should pick up a hammer and create more cracks.

Just because they have other lore problems, it doesn't mean they need to create more.

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Originally Posted by Raiu

Just because a vase has cracks in it, it doesn't mean you should pick up a hammer and create more cracks.

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They should be called out for their hypocrisy regarding it. I can't wait until Dancer and/or Gunblade have lore that restricts them to basically only you like so many other jobs, but you'll still see them all over the place.

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Just because they have other lore problems, it doesn't mean they need to create more.

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A single male Viera (by canon, other PC should be ignored) leaving the forest to answer Hydaelyn's call really won't break canon. Saying it would is an exaggeration.

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Originally Posted by BigTough

If fans can't respect the lore then just remove Viera all together

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Fair request. Even female Viera only rarely leave their forest. Having ten thousand or so suddenly appear and go adventuring conflicts with the Lore too. So to truly stick to the Lore female Viera must be deleted or limited to 50 per server.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I think the community would be more understanding if they admitted this. Development takes time and effort and when you have deadlines to meet, some things won't get done. I'm a developer in another industry, we just communicate what we can and can't get done for a deadline and if we intend to add something in future, we'll be transparent to help manage expectations and avoid complaints like "but you didn't add this on this patch, we need that" and when could be coming in the next patch.

It also gives them room to say either:
"If there is enough demand we'll pool resources to make it happen"
or
"We didn't have time, but we will add them in the future."

Instead they've gone with, "we've not done this because of the lore". Which is pretty final.

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Actually, I believe I heard in the FanFest mention of time constraints or something when they talked about the locks...

Though, to be fair, I'm only passably good at understanding Japanese.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

So since we're gonna be disrespecting the lore just so male Viera can be playable (excluding Hrothgar for now because we don't know what lore reason they have to not be playable yet), can this mean other Beastmen like Kobolds, Vanu Vanu, Amalj'aa, etc can be playable?

I've gone through years of being told that they could not be playable due to lore reasons. Sure, I now have the Hrothgar to look forward to (thank you, SE), but I'm greedy and would like more options.
At least with the Beastmen, we know they exist.

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You're in luck!
There's a new Beast tribe coming with shadowbringers...
You can even play as one!

They're called Dwarves!

Seeker Males are common, Keeper Males however are almost never seen. The lore states that they're so rare that almost nobody outside Keepers have ever seen one. As they're held prisoner and used as sex slaves.

However, that being said, lore still states they exist albeit rare. In the game there is 2 or 3 Keeper males in the entire world for NPC's. The PC is one character, so seeing a lot of PC Keeper males is fine.

The lore states nothing about male Vierras at all. That is the difference as to why it's a poor comparison.

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Originally Posted by BigTough

If they decide to implement male/female Viera and Hrothgar, we're going to lose out on future content due to time constraints. I guarantee it! These requests don't come without a cost.

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I don't think people would be so unwilling to pay that price, and IF Square Enix were honest they could frame it like this:

"We're working on fixing the matters presented to us, however it will require some time to properly address this, so please understand that we guarantee these changes will be made, but you'll have to wait."

There, now they have quelled the spirits of those who wanted that to be the case, while also not committing to strenous time constraints.

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Originally Posted by Finnky

Nobody asked for BLU. It's cool, it's fun, but nobody asked for it. Neither did anyone asked for Eureka or Diadem, and these two are probably universally hated by the player base.

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People were asking for BLU. I'm surprised though that you haven't drawn the parallel between what's happening here and why it would be an alerting trend though.

We've been given the same treatment, people asked for BLU but they NEVER envisioned the "limited job" system we have now to be there. They imagined different implementations but ultimately a FUNCTIONAL job like the rest, because BLU is one of the most malleable jobs at their disposal that didn't have a clear-cut identity/theme other than the one mechanic.

People have been given a half-hearted product.
With genderlocking, being one of those things where Square Enix OFFICIALLY stated they weren't going to introduce in the future.

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Originally Posted by VillainQueen

Oh yeah next time I fly my rathalos or drive a car in FFXIV on my way to a raid with Androids I make sure to wave to every male Miqo'te along the way, because nothing weird to see here. But oh boy male Viera who exist just really few and secluded, no there is no way some could have left the forest and became adventurers because other races are not allowed to have any agency whatsoever.

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This is my favorite quote ever. Hold on let me go get Lightning and I'll dress up in my GARO gear with my Dragon Quest minion so we can go and face YorHa. We can fly over with my Yo-Kai Watch mount.

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Originally Posted by BigTough

The lore is really important to some of us and it could be immersion breaking.

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Could be?
It already is my dude.
*flying away on my garo mount*

Not that lore scaricity should matter (White Mages, Red Mages, Summoners... Au Ra off of the steppe, Male Miqote, 1.0 Highlander and Roe lore, not to mention the dozens of lore unfriendly crap) but if you're going by lore it's a pretty bad lore reason

Female Viera: Never leaves the forest because of social and culture pressure by their civilization, despite this some few members leave and as a consequence lose the right to ever live with their people again
Male Viera: Never leaves the forest because of cultural pressure from a civilization they only partake in every couple of years, as a consequence of ending their self imposed exile they'd... be able to live among people. Despite having more to gain and less to lose than their female counterparts they abolsutely never leave.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Actually, I believe I heard in the FanFest mention of time constraints or something when they talked about the locks...

Though, to be fair, I'm only passably good at understanding Japanese.

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I expect that time restraints are indeed a thing. If what you say is true, then it's even more silly it's put down to "lore".

They could commit to the idea if they have the ability to put resources aside and if the is enough of a demand, then they'll implement it. If ultimately that's what the issue is, then this would be a good way of dealing with the disappointment. Granted people may still not like it, but it should alleviate it, because people can at least recognise that they have to manage their resources and prioritise what they work on and that dev team aren't closed to the idea and are happy to do it.

However, I would be interested in how much of the money that we put into the game goes back into the development budget.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

You're in luck!
There's a new Beast tribe coming with shadowbringers...
You can even play as one!

They're called Dwarves!

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/0BjUog5.jpg

That was mean!

Well looks like male viera is in FFXIV. The lore of one game is not the lore of others.

It looks like necromancy has been added as well.

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/80171025.jpg

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Originally Posted by manickitty

How pathetic. You KNOW this argument is worthless. If you actually cared about lore then delete the male miqos and add female Ronso.

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I thanks god everyday that players like op mindset are not, and never will be, ceo of square enix.

look...i never liked souls games and never will have one, but also, you will never see me asking souls developers to remove those kinds of game from stores, games that many players love it.
play as mutch souls game as your heart content, just dont gift one of it to me.

So, i know this is really hard to understand but we have to take into consideration that the player character is the protagonist of the story. Which means the player character is by itself a SNOWFLAKE under snowflakes. Thus the player gets to choose his own origin of choice.

I mean, you fellas really think a primalslaying overlord of doom who can master thousand jobs and is the hero of the world can't be a male bunny that just left his forest cause of reason XYZ. Is that really more crazy than being blessed by hydaelyn itself and being pumped with so much crystal meth that we can travel to other shards?

And yes we also talk about other male bunnies, right? The ones that aren't WoL. Well, jokes on you SE never said they will implement now thousands of male bunnies into the story etc. There won't be millions of bunnies running around as NPCs. And our playercharacters are unique protagonists who can have as exotic origins as we wish them to have. Cause they are unique and if thousand players choose to hop around as male viera that doesn't mean bunnies are now super common. It just means that many players choose this unique style of protagonist that is unique in their own version of the game which doesn't mean that male viera are lorewise now common since it's is ONE WARRIOR OF LIGHT since we don't share this story SE gives us.

So my hot take here is OP has no clue how storywriting and lore works and is literally a doomsday preacher that fits perfectly into endwalker. !0/10 would like to see OP as a NPC in Endwalker that screams about Hydaelyn dying cause of bunnies.

Its hard to argue using "Lore!" and "Immersion Breaking!" points when you have people driving cars, robots, flying dragons, robo-dragons, chocobo carriage, lol, etc etc around, while there are also people with thongs, frog costumes, chocobo costumes, running around and can even join you fighting big bad evils, lol.

old thread is old, but it can still entertain

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...dontgivein.jpg

Lore is always used as a smoke screen to hide what they truly mean.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Lore is always used as a smoke screen to hide what they truly mean.

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But what about the women and children?!?1

Some people think their desire for you to NOT have something is equal to your right to have it.

I don't get why it's so hard to realize that all the other players aren't canon to your experience.
This fixes 2b glam wearing Roes, Chocobo Suits, Limsa ERPers, Miqote, Viera, WHMs, and so on.. just... stop.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Some people think their desire for you to NOT have something is equal to your right to have it.

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You don't have a right to have it. You have a desire, same as the other person.

I'm fine with Male Viera, although I do hope they retcon the lore a tad to make them a better fit, but this is a pretty poor argument.

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

I don't get why it's so hard to realize that all the other players aren't canon to your experience.

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Because they never really give that impression, the exact opposite really, with the early game explaining that other adventurers exist and are reasonably common, and that forming parties is an in-world thing that said adventurers do.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I'm fine with Male Viera, although I do hope they retcon the lore a tad to make them a better fit, but this is a pretty poor argument.

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They're a perfect fit already, same as a member of any other race might leave to go adventure in the wider world. I don't think the "lore" ever stated de facto 100% that literally every single male viera in existence was bound for life to their duty or whatever so it's perfectly reasonable to have them as adventurers and therefore player characters. No problem here.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

You don't have a right to have it. You have a desire, same as the other person.

I'm fine with Male Viera, although I do hope they retcon the lore a tad to make them a better fit, but this is a pretty poor argument.

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i don‘t think thats needed. we know little about the males, you can make it work easy with the lore we have now. i‘m excited to hear more about the males, and im sure the team has done a wonderful job explaining things.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Because they never really give that impression, the exact opposite really, with the early game explaining that other adventurers exist and are reasonably common, and that forming parties is an in-world thing that said adventurers do.

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well then you would need to retcon many, many other things that would make no sense if we see other adventurer’s jobs and races as canon.

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Originally Posted by Aurida

They're a perfect fit already, same as a member of any other race might leave to go adventure in the wider world. I don't think the "lore" ever stated de facto 100% that literally every single male viera in existence was bound for life to their duty or whatever so it's perfectly reasonable to have them as adventurers and therefore player characters. No problem here.

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An "additive" retcon maybe, where it becomes apparent the dramaturge was not getting 100% reliable information, would be more than adequate.

I'd just like some little nod to their sudden appearance. Like how Au ra got the refugee crisis and the Viera/Hrothgar had rebellions erupt in and around their home regions.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

An "additive" retcon maybe, where it becomes apparent the dramaturge was not getting 100% reliable information, would be more than adequate.

I'd just like some little nod to their sudden appearance. Like how Au ra got the refugee crisis and the Viera/Hrothgar had rebellions erupt in and around their home regions.

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well yeah that makes more sense. the end of the world is coming „closer“ with endwalker. could be a possibility why we see the males leaving the woods to join other forces. as i said before, i‘m excited to see the reason that drove some of the males out of the forest.

I think both sides are the problem with this issue.


First off, you got sickos that weaponize lgtbq, or real life personal issues to get what they want. These morons threaten and pressure developers to get what they want. They are the shame of the world, and they are sick in the head. Anyone who takes this game that serious, and uses it to escape so much that they feel that strongly on a fantasy race in a video game. We should call them out to seek help. Ignoring them is not good enough because they are a stain on the community in the worse way. It is a mercy to let them know they need help.


Now that I got that out of the way. On the other side of things. Lore can be changed, claiming "Lore" as a reason to not do something is not only silly, but it is also limits the creative power of the developers. As a consumer, asking for something that would make the service more enjoyable is not only alright, but is welcome by the developers. So acting like you are a victim of bad lore or choices by the makers finding a way to add something people want, is about as dumb take as you can get.



So in other words. Both sides need to do better.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

You don't have a right to have it. You have a desire, same as the other person.

I'm fine with Male Viera, although I do hope they retcon the lore a tad to make them a better fit, but this is a pretty poor argument.



Because they never really give that impression, the exact opposite really, with the early game explaining that other adventurers exist and are reasonably common, and that forming parties is an in-world thing that said adventurers do.

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Adventurers exist, yes.. who would've thunk, they're not the WoL just faceless nameless merry group much like how Azem used to get things done back in the day. Even then the amount of times we are canonically gathering allies is rare. Also there is nothing to retcon, a viera that abandons the forest is an exile regardless of gender, it's not like they were bound in chains.

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Originally Posted by Fukuro

well yeah that makes more sense. the end of the world is coming „closer“ with endwalker. could be a possibility why we see the males leaving the woods to join other forces. as i said before, i‘m excited to see the reason that drove some of the males out of the forest.

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I feel like I read somewhere they said they wouldn't really go into the how and why of their sudden appearance, but I can't find a source so now I'm not sure anymore?

Either way though, Viera life is pretty restrictive for both the men and the women so it's not hard to imagine why some would leave.

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

Even then the amount of times we are canonically gathering allies is rare.

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Not really, the majority of duties say that you're going with allies.

Oh! I think I remember this one :D

Don't mind me, just /doze'ing about zzz