Yotsuyu, Fordola, syndrom of "a good writting"? (spoil)

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Originally Posted by Cidel

I'm not a fan of how they handle and write most of their villains. It's true, Yotsuyu and Fordola have a few clichés that I can't help but feel like were shoved in our faces to try and morally conflict us to make them seem "deeper." But still, I do think these two characters are more well-written than a lot of their other "enemies of the week." Remember their portrayal of the Warriors of Darkness? "Oh look, it's the Warrior of Light." *sinister face* "Oh there was a twin, no wonder my poison arrow seemed like it had no effect" *smug sneering* "Oooh, you beat us! Pity our situation." *sadfaces* - Yeah, that was how "deep" those villains who had been built-up for some time came across.

Personally, I think Fordola's situation seems more worth seeing-through. There are similarities between Yotsuyu and Fordola (probably intended), but Yotsuyu was pretty much sociopathic and the only thing really keeping her from being a total hatesink was her convenient amnesia, which as somebody already pointed out, her and Gosetsu's role in the story was more impactful if they had ended in Doma Castle's collapse. But unfortunately, as the writers prove time and time again, they have an incredibly tough time leaving any significant story characters truly dead, and we frequently find out mere patches later that "but wait- not really!" The writers seem to love using the Not Quite Dead trope to the point that it's not even a plot twist anymore and any time somebody "dies" (and hasn't already come back before) I'll expect them to make an appearance back into the story eventually and will be pleasantly surprised if they actually don't.

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Yes of course

after i dont eat 150 serial from HBO or netflix, so maybe those character speak to me because i dont meet this so often, still i find them so better than minfilia and lyse, so for me that is enough. i hear your critic, but i say that story of Yotsuyu bring very mature topic about traditionnal society in asia, and i think it has the deserved to be here, i m even astonish that japanese, which are a very very patriarchal society, want to approach those topic in a game. After i like yotsuyu befor her back, because she goes to the end, and never give up, she was so better wrote than gaius for example. her back is more played on symbolism i think, we see her as child, childhood she never get, and to finish as a goddess, maybe to highlight the importance to have faith when all society is against you.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

She should, at the very least, be imprisoned for the rest of her life. Instead, she gets to go on adventures with Arenvald while occasionally having reminders of her past misdeads.

Fordola is a monster, and the game keeps asking us to, if not forgive her, at least condone her.

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Wut? When did this happen? In 4.1, she assisted us in fighting Lakshmi and then once that was over, went straight back to prison (I'm also pretty sure she even requested that she go back to prison).

Yup. "It's done. Take me back to my cell."

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Warriors of Darkness had the full weight of an entire world on their shoulders. I can't really condemn them for being smug and desperate - especially when the protagonists frequently cheer, nod enthusiastically and bump fists when preparing to slaughter countless enemy combatants. Many of whom are conscripts/individuals forced into dire situations due to just how horrible and messed up a setting Hydaelyn actually is.

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never trust "god"

Hydeylyn make me more and more think to the "elder" in soul reaver

you know you start the game, the elder is your mentor, he allow you to get revenge, and you are his angel of death, just the same way Hydelyn start with your character, so you progress thinking that the god is with you, you are the warrior of light or whatever, and more you progress more you figur out that this "god" play his on sheet and you are just pawn to him. (or her)

Lessons to keep, god are not good or bad, they just do work on another dimension, which mean for simple human, maybe many suffering and death.

The elder, was the plag of nosgoth, the wheel of life was created by his own hands to allow him continue to be fed. And hydelyn make me think close of him on her behaviour, after all we know nothing of her and i dont think she care much about human live (or life in general) remember that was her fault if the world shatterred in 13 part.

on that side i dont cosidere ascien as bad, but among those two , human are few thing i fear.

The world being "shattered" (really it's just 13 alternate worlds. Similar to the Source, but different... though I guess technically 12 worlds since the Ascians messed up and turned the 13th into a void. Warriors of Darkness messed up on the 1st, but Hydaelyn sent Minfillia there to siphon the Light) was because Zodiark was getting greedy, which had Hydaelyn banish him to the moon (3.2 cutscenes in the Antitower). We don't even know if there was life on the world before she sealed him away and the first lore book kinda implies that.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Wut? When did this happen? In 4.1, she assisted us in fighting Lakshmi and then once that was over, went straight back to prison (I'm also pretty sure she even requested that she go back to prison).

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It's in the Tales of the Storm thing, a serie of short stories around Stormblood, and there's one about Fordola being in an army regiment, being heroic and all. Quite lame in my opinion.

I liked Fordola, precisely because she is a monster. I think I talked about that some time ago and said something I wanted to sound witty like "If you actually feel something for a character, good or bad, then it's a good character". Fordola has a sad background, she grows evil and her only contact to reality is heroic (what she thinks so at least) combat. That's why she was a good soldier for Gaius, then Zenos, and now wherever she has been placed. Otherwise, she is constantly enduring her harsh past and her evil decisions. She's tragic in a way, and she trapped herself in this cycle. I did not feel the game was forcing us to forgive her or anything, she's most likely silenced past 4.1 when they awkwardly showed the "good" within her. I'm ok with that.

While now that we are facing different baddies... Solus is the stereotype of mad funny villain (Joker from Batman etc.), which I find dull. But Varis gained a bit of depth in that context.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Oh yeah, Yotsuyu is similar in that we see the Warriors of Darkness smugly act evil as they attempt to commit mass genocide, then at the end the story wants us to feel sorry for them and the Warriors of Darkness start making sad faces. It's was so hamfisted. I get the very strong impression these character aren't fully written out so the attempt to add dimensions to these villains in a later patches come off as retcons. What did the Warriors of Darkness stand to gain by acting smug and condescending? The fact that they never seem conflicted or regretful in their attempt at mass genocide made them completely unsympathetic in my eyes.

Yotsuyu never choose redemption, she was inflicted with brain damage caused by her own malicious actions. So what's the surprise when Yotsuyu choose to be herself? What was at stake? Yotsuyu was never sympathetic in my eyes. She attempted to purge a fishing village, one whom hadn't done anything to her. She never regretted these actions, especially when she had amnesia. Yotsuyu never goes through a character arc, she goes from being herself, to being brain damaged, then back to being herself. There's a reason amnesia is considered hack writing.

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I m not agree

we can consider brain damage due to her past, tell me who grow up with a saint mind in this condition? I remember you that kind of case exist in our world, there is many of it, (so this story first deserve to approach this topic that make a good point for me) I dont find her sympethetic, at start i was bored to see another cliché, like a femal version of zenos, but after seeing her background i found that more interesting. Yotsuyu has been tortur and captiv by two very criminal person who deserved 150 time their fuking death. Of cours he doesnt excuse her own crime, i dont excuse my father crime because he got an asshole as father too, but still we can understand. And the major problem showed by yotsuyu, is the fact that the society did nothing to save her at all, and today this might be highlight some probleme of this kind on our current society.

How many people heard their neighboor beat their wife or children, and do nothing?

i see her story like an social idea from the author and an criticism of traditionnal society in asia, from what i heard from south korea japan or even china, this is not surprising. So i think we better see yotsuyu story like an engage from the writter on this topic, more than something to be "original" or deeper narrativ.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

I liked Yotsuyu and hate Fordola. They are both absolute monsters who are utterly irredeemable. The only difference is in how they're perceived by themselves and others.

Yotsuyu knows that she's a monster, she just doesn't give a crap. The world hurt her, so she's going to hurt back. That's obviously a terrible excuse, but at least she's honest with herself. Perhaps more importantly, none of the other story characters ever forgave her for her myriad of crimes. The only reason they didn't just instantly execute her is because while she was in their custody, she was arguably a completely different person.

Fordola is just as big of a monster, but she tries to hide her monstrous deeds behind a mask of honor. She's somehow convinced herself that siding with the empire and killing her own people is not only morally justified, it's actually good for the Ala Mhiggans! But unlike Yotsuyu, Fordola gets to live on, and in relative freedom at that. The story tries to paint her unjustifiable crimes as just a mistake of youth. "Oh you killed, beat and imprisoned your countrymen for years? And for what turned out was literally no reason at all? That's okay, we all make mistakes!"

Yotsuyu is a villain, and I can respect her as a villain. Fordola is just as bad, but she's supposed to be this weird anti-hero, and I can't respect her at all.

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yes i understand

but that why i like fordola too, it because she doesnt hold back her decision, and go to the end, yes we can see her view like a way to l ie on herself, but that not important for me, the most important is the way how she act and assume her decision.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

It's in the Tales of the Storm thing, a serie of short stories around Stormblood, and there's one about Fordola being in an army regiment, being heroic and all. Quite lame in my opinion.

I liked Fordola, precisely because she is a monster. I think I talked about that some time ago and said something I wanted to sound witty like "If you actually feel something for a character, good or bad, then it's a good character". Fordola has a sad background, she grows evil and her only contact to reality is heroic (what she thinks so at least) combat. That's why she was a good soldier for Gaius, then Zenos, and now wherever she has been placed. Otherwise, she is constantly enduring her harsh past and her evil decisions. She's tragic in a way, and she trapped herself in this cycle. I did not feel the game was forcing us to forgive her or anything, she's most likely silenced past 4.1 when they awkwardly showed the "good" within her. I'm ok with that.

While now that we are facing different baddies... Solus is the stereotype of mad funny villain (Joker from Batman etc.), which I find dull. But Varis gained a bit of depth in that context.

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Ah, I see. So she's basically given the choice to work for the Immortal Flames (life threatening work) and serve out her sentence (likely impossible to clear due to her past actions), or to be put to death. Not exactly "going on adventures with Arenvald" as Beckett worded it. I guess this means we'll be seeing her in 4.55 MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

Who knows, we have one more major patch in Stormblood, we may get to see what becomes of Fordola. I bet she'll be redeemed somehow; probably through sacrificing herself to save Princess Peach.... er Lyse. (seriously Lyse has only been useful in terrifying some Namazu)

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oh yes

and now i skip all scene where she is, i cant see her face anymore, i want to slap her face , dam how can a caracter bring me so much hate by be so dumb and useless. so now i dont consider her as a character belonging to the lore, she doesnt exxist for me , i just ignor the character in all scene.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

That's far more inline with Yotsuyu's way of thinking. Some Ala Mhigans did her harm, therefor all Ala Mhigans must suffer.

But that's not actually what Fordola's motivations are. She makes her countrymen suffer under the guise of helping them. Killing, imprisoning and allowing the rape of her own people while convincing herself it's for their own good is, even in the most positive light, extremely foolish. And it's okay to have a story where characters do foolish things, but it's not okay when those characters don't get proper punishments for their actions.

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well i would like that someone punish lyse to be dumb

and for now fordola has nothing and no freedom, so that sound a kind of punishment for me, even, be beated by this dumbass lyse the most horrible punishment we could make to her.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I guess this means we'll be seeing her in 4.55 MSQ.

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I hope, actually! Back then in 4.3's "cliffhanger", I was sure Fordola would get some love because of Gaius' return. But my hopes are getting thinner: 4.56 will have to deal with a lot of things (the Call, the fight with Zenos, possibly a bit more info on the path to Shadowbringers), I don't see a spot for Fordola. But I could be wrong (and I hope I am!).

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Originally Posted by Nestama

The world being "shattered" (really it's just 13 alternate worlds. Similar to the Source, but different... though I guess technically 12 worlds since the Ascians messed up and turned the 13th into a void. Warriors of Darkness messed up on the 1st, but Hydaelyn sent Minfillia there to siphon the Light) was because Zodiark was getting greedy, which had Hydaelyn banish him to the moon (3.2 cutscenes in the Antitower). We don't even know if there was life on the world before she sealed him away and the first lore book kinda implies that.

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Yes i know, but i didnt get the other word to express myself, you see what i meant

but this story is weird, those 13 world materialy existe or are just some spiritual place? that i dont get,

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Originally Posted by Mansion

It's in the Tales of the Storm thing, a serie of short stories around Stormblood, and there's one about Fordola being in an army regiment, being heroic and all. Quite lame in my opinion.

I liked Fordola, precisely because she is a monster. I think I talked about that some time ago and said something I wanted to sound witty like "If you actually feel something for a character, good or bad, then it's a good character". Fordola has a sad background, she grows evil and her only contact to reality is heroic (what she thinks so at least) combat. That's why she was a good soldier for Gaius, then Zenos, and now wherever she has been placed. Otherwise, she is constantly enduring her harsh past and her evil decisions. She's tragic in a way, and she trapped herself in this cycle. I did not feel the game was forcing us to forgive her or anything, she's most likely silenced past 4.1 when they awkwardly showed the "good" within her. I'm ok with that.

While now that we are facing different baddies... Solus is the stereotype of mad funny villain (Joker from Batman etc.), which I find dull. But Varis gained a bit of depth in that context.

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well for solus, it deserve to entertain me instead to be original, so i wont ask more. Yes for Varis, which is funny in a way, dam his full armor is just so stupid, when there is the "pourparler" with league of eorzéa, i find him ridiculous. They should make him more simple like solus, he would gain in charism i think. And i think the same way for fordola, while caracter like lyse make me really sick to be stupidly dumb and useless.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Wut? When did this happen? In 4.1, she assisted us in fighting Lakshmi and then once that was over, went straight back to prison (I'm also pretty sure she even requested that she go back to prison).

Yup. "It's done. Take me back to my cell."

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https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../#sidestory_07

Edit: Whoops, should have fully caught up on the thread.

You might not want to skip everything with Lyse in it as she'll end up in a few with others and actually brings up a good point or two.

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Originally Posted by Kazhim

Yes i know, but i didnt get the other word to express myself, you see what i meant

but this story is weird, those 13 world materialy existe or are just some spiritual place? that i dont get,

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The other worlds are like alternate realities with their own balance of light and dark. On the first there's not a lot of darkness and so the forces working for Zoidark were weak. This is why when the WoDs came over they were so smug and seemingly being more powerful than even we were. Every rejoining breaks the barriers between a shard and the source and makes Hydalin weak in the process and making her suck in one of the other worlds. Now the 13th shard had the opposite of the first where there wasn't a lot of light and a lot of darkness so it lost and got swallowed up in a flood of darkness. Which as we've been told makes it unable to be rejoined. We don't know if some of the other worlds are more advanced than us or not. Of course a lot of the information we've gotten about how all of this works are from those who are causing these calamities which there have been seven.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

You might not want to skip everything with Lyse in it as she'll end up in a few with others and actually brings up a good point or two.

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sorry but she killed my patienc, bringing her whole asia like an unbraim american turist girl bored me a lot. i gave her a luck, now i wil save my time
this was befor she had to become something
now i dont care that is just too late.
she doesnt deserve to become leader of ala migho, she did absolutely nothing for it, where many other character struggled hardly.

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Originally Posted by Kazhim

sorry but she killed my patienc, bringing her whole asia like an unbraim american turist girl bored me a lot. i gave her a luck, now i wil save my time
this was befor she had to become something
now i dont care that is just too late.
she doesnt deserve to become leader of ala migho, she did absolutely nothing for it, where many other character struggled hardly.

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I'm not sure if you're caught up in the storyline or not, but she's in a few cut scenes with all the other leaders that info dumps things we know about as players. Things that our characters and our allies don't know about until then. She's also most likely will be in a few other ones coming up later this month when we finish the msq as she was shown in a fight scene with others from the trailer for 4.5. I mean skip them if you really can't stand her that much that not even other npcs and possible important plot point might get missed.

Fordola I liked well enough, she was really the only one of the three main antagonists that I had any investment in for SB. Not great but I was able to latch onto something. Oh and Grynwaht finally grabbed me during the last encounter with him. That was it as far as villains I latched onto this expansion.

Yotsuyu irritates me because she had such great potential but the way they executed her was just awful IMO.

I kinda was fine with Fordolas redemption arc after showing us what she is going through with the fake echo. Constantly getting all these visions and on top of that helping out with primals makes it at least feel like she does atone. At least that may make up for all the things she has done. And her past made it at least understandable even if it was still wrong. Also people thanked her when she saved them from Lakshmi but still held some grudge towards her which I found to be the most human reaction for them.

Yotsuyus part was something I did not like. First showing her to us as this pure evil lady that kills and tortue people just for fun and her own amusement..then trying to make a bit of a redemption by taking away her memories in an accident that should have killed her and Gosetsu (and would have been the better ending imo for both of them). Her getting a second chance as this innocent person just doesnt feel right for me..no matter how hard your past was, its still your own choice how to react to that. She chose to take it out on all of Doma, even on those that did not even live when it happened to her. It was a nice way to show that all was not right with Doma in the past too and maybe a good hint at what they still need to change but honestly no country will ever be perfect in that way because you cant controll every single person living there. If she had just taken revenge on exactly those that wronged her, then fine it would have been more understandable but she was kinda punishing a whole population for the mistakes of a few and that is a big "No no" for me. At the end I was happy that she still died because at least she got her revenge but also no easy redemption by amnesia..(and wow the people of Namai seemingly forgive quite fast)

So one was growing on me over time but the other was imo a bad attempt at redemption.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Stuff like dungeon mobs can be left open to interpretation, so I make it a point to separate gameplay elements from the story. For all we know the WoL could've just incapacitated most non-major characters instead (same way that if you die in a dungeon you don't actually die, you just got knocked out).

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Exactly. We have no idea how many we truly kill and most of them are probably in self defense. We do not go around and kill for the joy of it. We also cant forget that the animation for death and passing out is often the same and I kinda doubt that we for example went through training dungeons or the trial of the white dragon and kill all of these NPCs or even his children..I dare to say that our white dragon (can never spell is name..) would not go with us if we just slaughtered his children like that. We also often fight against monsters in dungeons. Any Garlean soldier we fought could be either killed or just knocked out and still those are soldiers not civilians. Which is the big difference between us and for example Yotsuyu.

The thing about Yotsuyu and Fordola is, while I can't forgive the awful things they've done, I understand why they did what they did. I mostly pity them more than anything else. The main problem I have with their character arcs is more the problem I have with the story pacing of Stormblood in general. I think a lot of things suffered by jumping back and forth between Doma and Ala Mhigo.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

That's far more inline with Yotsuyu's way of thinking. Some Ala Mhigans did her harm, therefor all Ala Mhigans must suffer.

But that's not actually what Fordola's motivations are. She makes her countrymen suffer under the guise of helping them. Killing, imprisoning and allowing the rape of her own people while convincing herself it's for their own good is, even in the most positive light, extremely foolish. And it's okay to have a story where characters do foolish things, but it's not okay when those characters don't get proper punishments for their actions.

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The writers have shown the Ala Mhigan are not nice people. They prey on the weak, attack the defenceless and commit war crimes. Remember when they dressed in the uniforms of other nations to provoke a war that could kill countless innocents? What is to be done with these people?

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Originally Posted by Kazhim

I m not agree

we can consider brain damage due to her past, tell me who grow up with a saint mind in this condition? I remember you that kind of case exist in our world, there is many of it, (so this story first deserve to approach this topic that make a good point for me) I dont find her sympethetic, at start i was bored to see another cliché, like a femal version of zenos, but after seeing her background i found that more interesting. Yotsuyu has been tortur and captiv by two very criminal person who deserved 150 time their fuking death. Of cours he doesnt excuse her own crime, i dont excuse my father crime because he got an asshole as father too, but still we can understand. And the major problem showed by yotsuyu, is the fact that the society did nothing to save her at all, and today this might be highlight some probleme of this kind on our current society.

How many people heard their neighboor beat their wife or children, and do nothing?

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And do note that NOBODY takes responsibility for their in-action. Nobody changes from this story, nobody has an arc, nobody has learned a lesson.

Anterograde amnesia is the inability to create new memories due to brain damage
Retrograde amnesia is inability to recall memories before onset of amnesia.
Post-traumatic amnesia is generally due to a head injury (example: a fall, a knock on the head). Traumatic amnesia is often transient, but may be permanent or either anterograde, retrograde, or mixed type.
Lacunar amnesia is the loss of memory about one specific event.
Childhood amnesia (also known as infantile amnesia) is the common inability to remember events from one's own childhood.
Transient global amnesia (TGA) is a neurological disorder whose key defining characteristic is a temporary but almost total disruption of short-term memory with a range of problems accessing older memories
Source amnesia is the inability to remember where, when or how previously learned information has been acquired, while retaining the factual knowledge.


Yotsuyu's Amnesia doesn't fit any of these. It's the soap-opera brand of amnesia, drama resulting from hack writing.

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Originally Posted by Edax

The writers have shown the Ala Mhigan are not nice people. They prey on the weak, attack the defenceless and commit war crimes. Remember when they dressed in the uniforms of other nations to provoke a war that could kill countless innocents? What is to be done with these people?



And do note that NOBODY takes responsibility for their in-action. Nobody changes from this story.

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yes so how do we interpret this?

1 : they do the change but the story sound suddendly naive and happy ending
2: they do not, and show how society can be cold and not affected by this kind situation, showing a certain reality.

2 sounds more an idea to be realist, and maybe make think the player about.

here is my point

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Originally Posted by Kazhim

yes so how do we interpret this?

1 : they do the change but the story sound suddendly naive and happy ending
2: they do not, and show how society can be cold and not affected by this kind situation, showing a certain reality.

2 sounds more an idea to be realist, and maybe make think the player about.

here is my point

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I'm sorry, your grammar is very poor.
I'm assuming you mean
1: Domas learn a very bitter lesson about complacency that cost thousands of lives. I don't see how this could be a happy ending.
2. Doma doesn't change, and we learn that the people are morally corrupt and that they ruined their nation with their own hands.

The first is at least a realistic lesson about "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good to do nothing".

The second is also realistic but it calls into question whether Doma should have been saved to begin with. That would be a very dark and grim theme, but I suppose they could have pulled it off. At least the then the story would be about introspection and not about the villain of the month. It may even prompt a change in the characters, perhaps prompting Hien to try and reform Doma. This could serve as the impetus for a character arc for Doma as a whole. We've already seen this happen with Ishgard.

But instead, nobody learned anything and nobody changed. The events just "happened" and then it was over. Almost like a fanfic.

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

The thing about Yotsuyu and Fordola is, while I can't forgive the awful things they've done, I understand why they did what they did. I mostly pity them more than anything else. The main problem I have with their character arcs is more the problem I have with the story pacing of Stormblood in general. I think a lot of things suffered by jumping back and forth between Doma and Ala Mhigo.

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This pretty much reflects my thoughts on them and SB. If there is anything I am invested on with Fordola is the budding relationship between her and Arenvald. There's a connection there, and their upbringing along with the both of them frequently being at the same place at the same time isn't something I can ignore. They've been on both the opposite and same sides on the battlefield. She might be able to be redeemed through him much like Yotsuyu was headed with Gosetsu before her half brother came along and threw a monkey wrench between the cogs.

She's far from redeemed, but I am hard pressed to call her a true monster. She's not made of pure evil and has not let the monstrous side of her personality to consume her entirely. She's a very interesting character and I am glad she is still around. She is well on her way to filling the anti-hero slot. Many lives were lost as a result of her actions, but all of them were soldiers and this is war. I'm not saying this justifies her actions, but she was clearly conflicted with firing upon her own men because she's knows right from wrong and monsters don't care about this. She would sooner abandon her allegiance to whomever to save a civilian than take his or her life.

I pity Yotsuyu because she has been deprived of choice her entire life, so much so that when it is actually given to her, she still feels she doesn't have one and must act in a way that suits her image. I pity her because she's so beautiful on the outside, and just so very rotten within. Like opening up a fresh cantaloupe only to find maggots at the core. I pity her because she never will never know what friends, family, love, compassion, empathy, and kindness are. All of it was taken from her and witnessing them herself is foreign or alien. Just so very, very sad.

I'm with ChaoticCrimson on this. On paper, I like how all of these characters work. I like Lyse just fine as the character SB was trying to make her be. In fact, I'd say she more a victim of fandom hate for a character she isn't even trying to be then anything else at this point. Fordola is a great "stuck in the middle of two cultures with no good options" character. Yotsuyu is one of the few characters I've seen who does the amnesia tropes well. I like that in the end she gets her revenge on the people who really did make her life hell (her aunt, uncle and cousin) while it's made obvious that how she got mad and took it out on the rest of Doma wasn't right.

Unfortunately, Stormblood's overall pacing, especially in 4.0, was really bad. The writers tried to cram too much plot into the expansion so they could get to 5.0. The characterization of many of the characters, not just these three, suffered from that a lot. I never felt like we got a long enough time spent anywhere unless I slowed down and did sidequests. Taken out of the rushed plot, many of the characters work a lot better. The rest of the 4.x series doesn't feel so rushed compared to 4.0, so the characterization feels a lot better.

Some things to consider.

1. Yes some ala mhigans like Ilberd and his followers did some very bad things. However, most of these people were driven to the edge after 20 years of a brutal occupation. They were desperate. That doesn't excuse everything they did, but there's more to it than 'they were just bad people' as well.

2. Not all of them are like that. The ones that followed Ilberd in particular were almost all wiped out at Baelsar's wall and the resistance faction we work with didn't support or condone what Ilberd did. There are plenty of good ala mhigan characters we meet in Stormblood. Saying that 'ala mhigans aren't nice people' as a whole is like saying 'Ishgardian's aren't nice people' as a whole.

For Yotsuyu, she would have been a decent enough arc villain I guess if they'd just killed her in Doma Castle. But I hated her story in 4.2 and 4.3 so much with the cheap amnesia bs that I wish they hadn't brought her back at all. The only good thing I have to say about her arc in 4.2 and 4.3 is that she took Asahi with her. I'm sorry but having a character introduced as coercing innocent villagers into murdering each other is going to need more than a tragic backstory to make me entertain the idea of redeeming them or feeling sorry for them like it felt like 4.3 wanted me to do. Yotsuyu had the potential to be a GREAT character but they handled her so poorly her story is the worst part of the entire msq from 2.0 to 4.5 for me.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

I'm with ChaoticCrimson on this. On paper, I like how all of these characters work. I like Lyse just fine as the character SB was trying to make her be. In fact, I'd say she more a victim of fandom hate for a character she isn't even trying to be then anything else at this point. Fordola is a great "stuck in the middle of two cultures with no good options" character. Yotsuyu is one of the few characters I've seen who does the amnesia tropes well. I like that in the end she gets her revenge on the people who really did make her life hell (her aunt, uncle and cousin) while it's made obvious that how she got mad and took it out on the rest of Doma wasn't right.

Unfortunately, Stormblood's overall pacing, especially in 4.0, was really bad. The writers tried to cram too much plot into the expansion so they could get to 5.0. The characterization of many of the characters, not just these three, suffered from that a lot. I never felt like we got a long enough time spent anywhere unless I slowed down and did sidequests. Taken out of the rushed plot, many of the characters work a lot better. The rest of the 4.x series doesn't feel so rushed compared to 4.0, so the characterization feels a lot better.

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The very start of Heavenward was genius. It reduced all the characters down to the Warrior of Light, Tataru Taru and Alphinaud before introducing new characters.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Some things to consider.

1. Yes some ala mhigans like Ilberd and his followers did some very bad things. However, most of these people were driven to the edge after 20 years of a brutal occupation. They were desperate. That doesn't excuse everything they did, but there's more to it than 'they were just bad people' as well.

2. Not all of them are like that. The ones that followed Ilberd in particular were almost all wiped out at Baelsar's wall and the resistance faction we work with didn't support or condone what Ilberd did. There are plenty of good ala mhigan characters we meet in Stormblood. Saying that 'ala mhigans aren't nice people' as a whole is like saying 'Ishgardian's aren't nice people' as a whole.

For Yotsuyu, she would have been a decent enough arc villain I guess if they'd just killed her in Doma Castle. But I hated her story in 4.2 and 4.3 so much with the cheap amnesia bs that I wish they hadn't brought her back at all. The only good thing I have to say about her arc in 4.2 and 4.3 is that she took Asahi with her. I'm sorry but having a character introduced as coercing innocent villagers into murdering each other is going to need more than a tragic backstory to make me entertain the idea of redeeming them or feeling sorry for them like it felt like 4.3 wanted me to do. Yotsuyu had the potential to be a GREAT character but they handled her so poorly her story is the worst part of the entire msq from 2.0 to 4.5 for me.

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It illustrators the point of why Fordona would not commit to the Ala Mhigan cause if so many of the people were a bunch of predatory thugs. Note that a lynch mob forms to try and murder a defenceless Fordona as well and so many got blood on their hands for stoning Fordona's father to death. Sure, not all of them are like such as Raubahn, but the story has shown us that most of Ala Mhigans are like this. Even before the Empire occupied Ala Mhigo and made them desperate, the lore says it was an aggressive nation, invading Eorzea. Would you fight for these people? At the very least in Heavensward, there were houses and factions that took side within Ishgard. There was actual politics in the city. All that stopped Fordona from being lynched were main characters that didn't live in Ala Mhigo. Can you name a political faction in Ala Mhigo beyond "The Resistance"?

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Some things to consider.

1. Yes some ala mhigans like Ilberd and his followers did some very bad things. However, most of these people were driven to the edge after 20 years of a brutal occupation. They were desperate. That doesn't excuse everything they did, but there's more to it than 'they were just bad people' as well.

2. Not all of them are like that. The ones that followed Ilberd in particular were almost all wiped out at Baelsar's wall and the resistance faction we work with didn't support or condone what Ilberd did. There are plenty of good ala mhigan characters we meet in Stormblood. Saying that 'ala mhigans aren't nice people' as a whole is like saying 'Ishgardian's aren't nice people' as a whole.

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Look back a bit further than the past 20 years and you have the despotic rule of Theodoric. As lesser nobles, Fordola's family would have been on the chopping block real soon as he continually expanded who he thought would usurp him. Of course they were going to find Garlean rule preferable to the guy in charge is actively trying to kill us. Garlemald didn't even have to remove places of worship, Theodoric took care of that for them since in his insane paranoia he went to war with the state religion. The royal guard became a band of cut-throats for hire and then highwaymen who assaulted and robbed refugees, their own people, as they made their escape when the king was taken out.

Fordola is 19, we were maybe 5 years into occupation when the people found it reasonable to try to kill toddlers in the streets of the capital. And that's under Gaius, a man who completely buys into colonies ability to rise up and self-regulate. When we get there we see life under Zenos, whose entire MO is to ramp up oppressive measures until the locals fight back for kicks.

Ala Mhigo has a long history of aggression, they were the enemy nation that the original Eorzean Alliance was founded to defend its members against. Ala Mhigo was being cut out of trade because of seafaring trade taking off, so they did the completely reasonable thing of try to violently annex Gridania and this appears to be why the Elementals refuse the settlement of many of them to this day.

These were a people full of aggressive, unearned pride and the whole point of the Skulls was to drag them kicking and screaming into a better world since lashing out was all their history paints them as being able to do.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

She's far from redeemed, but I am hard pressed to call her a true monster. She's not made of pure evil and has not let the monstrous side of her personality to consume her entirely. She's a very interesting character and I am glad she is still around. She is well on her way to filling the anti-hero slot. Many lives were lost as a result of her actions, but all of them were soldiers and this is war. I'm not saying this justifies her actions, but she was clearly conflicted with firing upon her own men because she's knows right from wrong and monsters don't care about this. She would sooner abandon her allegiance to whomever to save a civilian than take his or her life.

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I am not sure anymore but I do think I kinda saw Fordola as quite monsterous (but never in the depth of Yotsuyu) before getting more information about her current situation. Her just getting the echo visions alone would not have been that great but her having to fight against primals thus putting her skills to work and her saving that person when she could have used it to flee was at least a nice change thus in the end I do like her redemption. But we should not forget that she did not just attack soldiers. We know that her group was quite ruthless with normal civilians too, we saw it first hand with some of them hitting that poor man. The big difference to Yotsuyu was imo that she did not enjoy it (or at least did not show it) but she still was not quite nice to a lot of people.

- Fordola

Fordola turned out to be to me probably the most interesting character introduced with Stormblood. I've seen her described as evil, a monster, or irredeemable, but I really don't think that's the case at all. To me, intent is the greatest factor into whether one qualifies as being evil, and Fordola's goals were admirable: She wanted to save Ala Mhigo, in SPITE of what Ala Mhigans did to her family. It's certainly the case that the stoning hardened her, made her a lot less likely to take pity on Ala Mhigans who resist Garlean occupation, whether overtly (the Resistance) or passively (folks who are delinquent in paying their tithe). I see her as a well-intentioned extremist; she has a noble goal, and is willing to get her hands dirty to achieve it. In her mind, resisting the Garleans is both hopeless and pointless. They are an unstoppable force who cannot be beaten, and the only way for a nation to survive is to bow to them. (And she still has not been proven wrong! Our victory at Ala Mhigo was exceedingly unlikely, and came in no small part because Zenos was more interested in paving the way for us to come fight him than he was in actually defending the territory. That bought Ala Mhigo a temporary freedom - and now the Garleans are back in force, and they plan to raze everything to the ground, this time. It's exactly as Fordola feared. It remains to be seen whether we'll be able to stop them as usual, or whether the game will turn down a very dark path with Ala Mhigo's annihilation.)

Her actions, well-intentioned or not, are certainly criminal, and she deserves to be punished for them. What's less clear is how severely she deserves to be punished. Certainly the individuals who were hurt by her would like to see her killed, or at least imprisoned for life - but those options, I think, should be reserved for individuals incapable of rehabilitation. Fordola HAS shown herself willing to play ball with the Alliance. This may be because she still hopes to save Ala Mhigo, and knows that what desperate chance it has left depends on the Alliance, or it may be that she's honestly starting to recognize that there are other options than servitude to Garlemald. Either way, the fact that the Alliance is choosing to make her part of their anti-Primal strike force is not for HER benefit. She's doing hard labor to atone for her transgressions, and the work she's doing could potentially save many lives.

That said, I don't think she should be allowed her freedom for many years yet, and, unfortunately, I think it's all too likely that the story writers will choose to free her from servitude much sooner than she should, whether it be by dying in some kind of noble sacrifice, or her captors deciding that she's "earned it" way earlier than they should. Neither option is appealing, but the best case, in my mind, would be for her to fade into the background: We know she's out there, paying for her crimes, and may one day be forgiven for what she's done, but it will be a long, hard road. Writers in general, not just in Final Fantasy, tend to be very reluctant to leave threads permanently unresolved in this way, and I'm afraid they'll do something hasty!

In short, I feel like Fordola did a lot of bad things but for noble goals, and that should be taken into account when deciding her fate. It's not as cut-and-dried as "she hurt a lot of people and must pay". It's way more complex than that.

- Yotsuyu

I was less happy with Yotsuyu's character, although I think they did a decent job of bringing her character arc to an end. Yotsuyu was introduced as a horrendous monster, who lived for little other than making others suffer. Naturally, she had a reason for it, but the problem was that I just couldn't swallow it.

So, she was terribly abused by her foster family as a young girl, sold into a loveless marriage and eventually into prostitution. Therefore, all Domans must suffer? I might have had some sympathy if the game had gone to any lengths to show that what happened to Yotsuyu was condoned by Doman citizens in general, but it didn't. The only Domans we saw taking part in Yotsuyu's suffering were those DIRECTLY COMPLICIT in the wrongdoing. We were never shown other Domans accepting that what happened to her as being right and natural. There were never laws pointed out that showed her sale as being legal. We can assume these things are true - or, we can just as easily assume that they are not, that the actions taken by Yotsuyu's family were NOT socially or legally condoned, that they were done in secrecy. Because of this uncertainty, the logical fallacy that "Parents are evil and parents are Domans therefore Domans are evil" just paints Yotsuyu as being a lunatic.

It was clear, too, that she KNOWS where the true fault lies. It was made pretty clear that her foster family topped her revenge list (but were previously untouchable, being Garlean citizens), so her torture of random Domans was even less justified.

I wasn't happy when her amnesia arc began. Amnesia is rarely handled with any sort of realism in fiction, and this was no exception. That said, I found myself grudgingly pleased with how it progressed, with Yotsuyu being given the opportunity to experience actual affection, to be valued and protected, to then recover her memories, and then reject the opportunity for redemption in favor of seeing her vengeance through to the end - but not without a moment of wistful longing. Her execution of her parents, and especially her brother, were most satisfying, as all three of them quite clearly felt no remorse regarding their past misdeeds or any intention of reforming.

To sum up, Yotsuyu annoyed me with her anti-Doman mindset, as I felt the game did not give good enough justification for it, and my eyes were rolling during the amnesia arc, but I was pleased with how it resolved and felt that Yotsuyu got a worthy end.

- Lyse

While not the subject of this thread, I thought I'd say a word or two about Lyse. I don't hate Lyse, but neither do I much like her. I felt the same way about Yda. But something that I DO appreciate is that when they changed Yda into Lyse, there was still plenty of Yda left in her. She's still not the brightest, and prone to silly assumptions and behaviors. She didn't suddenly transform into a great leader, just because they made her a leader - quite the opposite. She recognizes that she's not really qualified for the role, and accepted it primarily because the people of Ala Mhigo needed a figurehead and she was the daughter of a great revolutionary. I was quite pleased that they didn't transform her into some kind of Mary Sue who could do no wrong just because she took her mask off.

Frankly, I think that the Ala Mhigans promoting Lyse to leader was a bit of a stretch, and that she isn't really suited to the role. What's important, though, is that the writers seem to realize it, as well. I think they've done a good job of keeping her in-character, and to me that's more important than whether I actually LIKE that character.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Yotsuyu's Amnesia doesn't fit any of these. It's the soap-opera brand of amnesia, drama resulting from hack writing.

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It fits the Post-traumatic amnesia you described, and given that Yotsuyu seemed to have acquired it during the collapse of Doma Castle (head trauma) and that it did turn out to be temporary, that seems to be exactly the type the writers were going for. Of course, I don't deny that it has the whole soap opera twist of removing just the right memories for the plotline they wanted. Even so, I don't think it's fair to say that her amnesia doesn't fit any of the listed types.

Soap opera amnesia exists because Post-traumatic amnesia really is a thing. They just stretch the bounds of what PTA is actually likely to do.

I think another thing that really singles out the level of hopelessness and indoctrination to the idea that Garlemald will always rule is that random teens not even in the army or anything, complete noncombatants, attacked the Warrior of Light AFTER several major wins for the Resistance including the liberation of Doma to try to appease their rulers.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It fits the Post-traumatic amnesia you described, and given that Yotsuyu seemed to have acquired it during the collapse of Doma Castle (head trauma) and that it did turn out to be temporary, that seems to be exactly the type the writers were going for. Of course, I don't deny that it has the whole soap opera twist of removing just the right memories for the plotline they wanted. Even so, I don't think it's fair to say that her amnesia doesn't fit any of the listed types.

Soap opera amnesia exists because Post-traumatic amnesia really is a thing. They just stretch the bounds of what PTA is actually likely to do.

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Well, Post-traumatic amnesia manifest as either anterograde, retrograde, or mixed type. Since Yotsuyu is remembering things after the event, it has to be Retrograde amnesia. The problem is that Retrograde amnesia isn't a regression of personality, it's a loss of identity. A person with Retrograde amnesia might wake up thinking it's 15 years in the past but they don't become a child, but instead become overwhelmed at how everyone has changed. Yotsuyu would not "forget" her brother when she met him, instead she'd be shocked by how much he had aged. Yotsuyu would also remember Gosetsu, just perhaps from a different time so the whole story is junk food.

But since you agree, it is soup opera Amnesia. The kind Spiderman 3 did with which got a bunch of eye-rolls. Amnesia can be an overwhelming problem for people so the way Yotsuyu just goes on carefree with her amnesia is just not giving the disability the proper gravitas. Yotsuyu should know she could not recall personal memories and she should have been terrorfied and overwhelmed, not simple and happy.

I actually loved Fordola's character and found myself sympathizing with her. I hope she's reintroducing into the story now that Gaius has made his return. I'm liking the sounds of their father/daughter dynamic that the MSQ hinted at.

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Originally Posted by waifugenerator

I actually loved Fordola's character and found myself sympathizing with her. I hope she's reintroducing into the story now that Gaius has made his return. I'm liking the sounds of their father/daughter dynamic that the MSQ hinted at.

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...let's just hope it isn't the same sort of father/daughter dynamic that Gaius had with Livia!