What is a "bad player" to you?

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Originally Posted by Arrhin

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I am a prophet!

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Originally Posted by Starflake

In my experience, it is always the people who yell elitism and screech the word 'toxic' so often that are terrible players. I just finished my final Tank mount and have done this by doing almost exclusively normal mode SB content (raids). I just expect the basics. But the amount of people who do not even understand the basics of their class, present almost every run. No shirks, no Diversions, terrible DPS, insane amounts of overhealing, there are just so many people in this game, at level 70 and experienced that have such a poor playstyle that it's actually quite sad. For me, a bad player has nothing to do with ridiculous fluff like "being toxic" or "not seeing that this game is for fun". That is a behavioural "issue". A bad player is someone who progressed levels on their class but does not take out the time to hit the striking dummy for a bit, to take 10 minutes to look at a guide video, to not even read tooltips, don't come prepared to raids and generally waste the time of all other people involved. And there are plenty of these people.

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I actually agree with this take of what a bad player is. I personally think that it's quite common to mix behavioural issues with one's skill. I've met very nasty players, that would talk others down, they are super narcissistic, but they are very skillful, know the game from A to Z, have all the existing content down. I don't disregard their level of skill because of their attitude. While I wouldn't like to be paired up with these players, it has nothing to do with what a "Bad player" is, imo. As the example I posted earlier, a football player, no matter how cocky he is, if they get wins for their teams, beat goal records and bring trophies home... yeah, they are a good player. If we don't like them as a person, that's a different story.

Oh damn a ffxiv player is really asking this? Someone hasn't been paying attention.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

No i mean the asian domino game that came from domian

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Mahjong?

You know that's a real game right? That's existed since 500 BC and has been very popular in Asia since its inception?

A bad player is someone that doesn't know the absolute basics of their role, doesn't want to know them, doesn't want to be told how to do better, yet queues for content anyway. They're a waste of everyone's time.

There are plenty of ways to be a bad person in addition to the above, but the above is the purest definition of a bad player I can provide.

Good or bad player is separate from good or bad person.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

I actually agree with this take of what a bad player is. I personally think that it's quite common to mix behavioural issues with one's skill. I've met very nasty players, that would talk others down, they are super narcissistic, but they are very skillful, know the game from A to Z, have all the existing content down. I don't disregard their level of skill because of their attitude. While I wouldn't like to be paired up with these players, it has nothing to do with what a "Bad player" is, imo. As the example I posted earlier, a football player, no matter how cocky he is, if they get wins for their teams, beat goal records and bring trophies home... yeah, they are a good player. If we don't like them as a person, that's a different story.

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I think the analogy only partially works, though. That football player will run into issues if their cockiness is dragging the rest of the team down, after all, and really good football players usually are going pro in some form, meaning they won't be paired up with players of wildly varying skill levels like what can happen in this game. Even if a player is highly skilled at this game and does amazing, I'd still consider them a bad player if they actively harass or abuse other players, as that can lead to those players not working with them or leaving the game outright.

Someone who's not respecting their teammates, ignoring mechanics, don't know their class AND - and that's the most important part - is NOT willing to learn and improve themself.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Are you really offend over a opinion?

And idc if they can clear all content in 48 hours with no deaths its disrespectful 2 ff

In series you should respect the series by playing all i literally didn't know what dark souls was till last year and when i found out i did research bought all games.

Y because it is respectful 2 both the series and the old fans...

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It's hard to fathom people like this actually exist. You're literally telling people to go through 15 40+ hour single player games because they are somehow disrespecting the franchise. The only this disrespectful here is your assault on the english language.

I've found theres 4 major sub-types of "bad players". Each has their own reasons for being bad, and some wont stay bad.


The Inexperienced Player

This player isnt well-versed on specific mechanics or intricacies. This could be because they are brand new to the game, brand new to the fight or brand new to the mechanics.

Hell, I've done a few primals once or twice. I would probably look absolutely awful at them until I remember exactly wtf is going on.

This kind can learn, and ends up either graduating out of bad player, or turning into one of the other kinds of bad players.

The Distracted Player

This player has kids that scream. A lot. Or kids that are playing around and get stuck in the dryer. Or they have to chase after the kids to stop spraying febreeze in each others mouths. Or the kids got stuck between the wall and the couch. Or they're stuck in a hamper. Or their house is sick and their dog is on fire.

These are real stories, except that last one, which is also a real story, but for a different reason. This happened in progression raiding in EQ and WoW. I had a ventrilo speech hotkey that asked "Countdown is imminent, are your kids drinking febreeze?".

Kids and progression raiding dont go well together.

Are they good? Maybe when they arent distracted. They can certainly also be not so very good when not distracted. I raided with someone who was fantastic until it was one of those nights he had to watch the kids. He was then auto-benched unless we absolutely needed him, because he was absolutely terrible (and shouldnt have been trying to raid anyway...)


The Purposefully Clueless Player
The Legitimately Bad Player
Theres a lot of overlap between these two, but they differ by mindset.

The Purposefully clueless Player KNOWS when they fuck up. they know when they should be doing something they arent. They know when they arent doing something they should. They just dont care. Its not their problem.


Melding doesnt do anything for me, so I'm not going to bother.

I looked up rotations and i dont like how they work, so im going to hit this combo a lot and you can adjust for my inability to play properly.

You dont pay my sub.



The legitimately bad player doesnt or cant understand. They dont have any idea how to prepare for upcoming abilities, or that a mob with a pull-in followed by a run away or run in closer will require a different action on each of those follow-ups. They cant grasp, no matter how many times you tell them, that they have to esuna debuffs in higher floors of HoH, or look away from eyeballs staring at you (unless they have ?'s sometimes).

A legitimately bad player will do the same content over and over and over and never learn how or why they are failing.

A purposefully clueless player will tell you they dont need to be bothered to learn, because of reasons that make sense only to them.

I think the community as a whole often times labels casuals instantly as bad players.

They claim "Doesn't improve or won't" as a reason. Like half the posts here, but their definition of improving differs from the other players definition.

I've been yelled at and harassed as a healer for not doing enough damage. I was yelled at by tanks for keeping them at full health. That's not improving myself. It's not making be better as I want to be better. When I play a healer, I do just that, play a healer. I loathe magic damage with a very firm passion. My overall least favorite anything in the game.

As a tank, which I've stopped doing, I don't know most dungeons. I don't tell people either. Why? Because going into a dungeon you're forced to do at 58 and saying you've never been here and don't know anything about it just means half the group will leave instantly.


This community thinks that they're the greatest in MMO gaming, but they're not. They're in fact, worse than other mmo's. Because only in this game do tanks and healers get harassed for lack of damage in addition to their core role.

Honestly for me it's a rude player above all else. Players who just don't know how to do something and mess up can be helped and I mentally file more under "inexperienced" than bad, since they can always learn.

Main point of FFXIV as a game, to me, is to have fun. Even if you're dealing with a frustrating challenge, it should be fun to keep trying on some level. When players are actively rude, whether by being nasty or deeply inconsiderate (ex. ditching newbies who are watching a story-based cutscene for the first time even when they mention that's what's going on or ask for patience), to me that compromises the ability of other people to have fun while playing. More than that, it ruins fun to a degree that is way worse than just needing to be patient or dealing with some inconvenience.

It's like getting smacked in the face by someone you thought was friendly. Douses cold water on everything.

Edit: Aaaand I just saw previous pages debates lol. XD Honestly it seems like "bad player" might be semantically too broad for the different stuff people focus on. There's skill focus and there's overall experience focus as two different aspects of playing I think. My sense is people might be putting different levels of emphasis on skill versus overall experience. This seems almost like there's an unspoken question of "is it worse to be unskilled or to be mean" in a way, which people do seem to disagree on.

As a 2 cents thing... skill focus, for me, is more of a real life point. It's something I apply really hardcore to my work, which I love, but which remains on a completely different level compared to gaming. I like to be skilled in games, but it's not why I personally play. It's important to git gud and all haha, but when I see people get really serious about it to the point that they get honestly mad about lack of skill it feels like they're missing the point of a game and lack perspective. Games are literally there to make you happy. They don't get you a better paycheck, a better house. They can sometimes lead to real life friendships or relationships but that doesn't happen because of your skill level.

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Originally Posted by Zer0

1. I've been yelled at and harassed as a healer for not doing enough damage. I was yelled at by tanks for keeping them at full health. That's not improving myself. It's not making be better as I want to be better. When I play a healer, I do just that, play a healer. I loathe magic damage with a very firm passion. My overall least favorite anything in the game.

2. As a tank, which I've stopped doing, I don't know most dungeons. I don't tell people either. Why? Because going into a dungeon you're forced to do at 58 and saying you've never been here and don't know anything about it just means half the group will leave instantly.

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Just Focusing on these two things here.

1. This is a damage centric MMO, you healing is designed to be pretty goddamn powerful to facilitate dealing as much damage as possible on healing classes, if you "just want to heal", I'd maybe suggest another MMO, or not playing healer, cos healers in this game are designed to deal damage. Doing more damage is the defacto way to improve yourself as there's no other valuable metric to judge by.
2. Ive seen this happen a handful of times in my many years with this game. The only time I see people leave at the start is some tanks auto leaven aurum vale, or people leaving when they inspect a tanks gear and see its an expansion out of date in the vault.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Just Focusing on these two things here.

1. This is a damage centric MMO, you healing is designed to be pretty goddamn powerful to facilitate dealing as much damage as possible on healing classes, if you "just want to heal", I'd maybe suggest another MMO, or not playing healer, cos healers in this game are designed to deal damage. Doing more damage is the defacto way to improve yourself as there's no other valuable metric to judge by.
2. Ive seen this happen a handful of times in my many years with this game. The only time I see people leave at the start is some tanks auto leaven aurum vale, or people leaving when they inspect a tanks gear and see its an expansion out of date in the vault.

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No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

Being that this is an MMO, presumably centered around player interaction. I would probably put attitude and overall disposition at the forefront on whether or not a player is "bad."

I don't personally care all that much about how that person performs as long as they got a good attitude about it and are open to suggestions. You may not play well, but if you play well with others, you're alright in my book.

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Originally Posted by Zer0

No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

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Erm...If your only metric to being a good healer is "did people die?", chances are you are a bad player to many players. Tanks only need as much HP to survive the next hit, anything that pushes them over after the fact is meaningless except if it's to prep for a mechanic or such. I often go into fights without healing for 20-30 seconds at a time, relying only on my sustain from Storm's Path combo and mitigation rotated properly. I will concede that healers are usually reliant on how their party play to be seen as good but just going "nobody died so I'm doing great" is just doing a disservice to yourself and all your future parties and partners.

I understand that with any player base there are many types of playstyles and varying degrees of skill. Typically, as long as someone is a decent person, I don't particularly care what their skill level is. But when it comes to certain pieces of content where there is very little room for error and someone simply can't or won't comprehend what they're being told...I have very little patience for that, admittedly. Sometimes people simply can't get it, and that is alright. Not everyone is meant for every piece of content in the game. If I get frustrated enough I will typically leave without saying a word, the whole "don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" sorta deal. If I need to vent it is done outside the game through my own mouth where I can say whatever I want to myself. lol Just because someone isn't up to par doesn't mean they're a bad person or player per say, they just don't have the skill required to complete the content they're attempting. My definition of a "bad player" is someone who could in all likelihood improve themselves, but simply won't. That or someone who's a straight up jerk. My experience has been most of the time that they both go hand in hand.

Someone who:

• is rude without provocation
• puts down others in order to elevate themselves
• expects more of others than they would expect of themselves
• acts like they were never a new player who also made mistakes
• acts like they're an expert on raiding just because they know what "the meta" is, even though they know little else about raiding
• will take any opportunity to display their superior knowledge or skill
• acts like "casual" is a synonym for "bad"
• flags themselves as an english, german, french and japanese speaker to get faster DF queues but then gets annoyed if they meet people who don't speak the language their game client is in
• wears a mentor crown in DF and then gets annoyed when they're expected to mentor. If you don't want to mentor, turn off your crown.

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Originally Posted by Zer0

No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

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This right here would be a good example IMO.

The kind of player who, when confronted with an opposing opinion, immediately feels attacked and lashes out and resorts to name calling.

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It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

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A few answers to this:

If you're one of the healers who doesnt dps, and just heals, and a significant amount of healers actually do damage and keep parties alive while doing it, you are, in comparison to the whole, a bad player. If you spend multiple cooldowns to do what you can do with 1, you are, relative to the whole, a bad player. And if you KNOW you can do it with less, and free up more time to optimize your output, but choose not to, you're square in the "willfully ignorant" pile.


Additionally, if you've played MMO's (or games in general), you'd learn not to take things people say about their content as gospel.

I've been assured, by Sony, Blizzard, Squenix, Nintendo, and others, that "x is working correctly" or "x content is not bugged" or "x is intended" only to see those be hotfixed, patched, removed, re-broken, swapped out or re-implemented.

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Originally Posted by Zer0

I've been yelled at and harassed as a healer for not doing enough damage. I was yelled at by tanks for keeping them at full health. That's not improving myself. It's not making be better as I want to be better. When I play a healer, I do just that, play a healer. I loathe magic damage with a very firm passion. My overall least favorite anything in the game.

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While I in no way, shape or form condone any level of harassment you are literally admitting that you want to be a better player/healer but you aren't willing to do what it takes to become a better player.

There isn't any reason to keep spamming healing spells onto people every time they take damage, there is not enough consistent damage going out to be doing that, all you are doing is wasting mp and over-healing like crazy. Pure healing roles don't exist in this game, there is no reason to be a pure healer nor any benefit to it outside of your personal distaste for dealing damage.

It honestly depends on what your mind set is when you decide to be a healer, you can either decide to just keep spamming your heals when healing isn't needed or you can decide that you want to be as helpful to your group as possible by throwing out damage when healing isn't required. The latter is what separates mediocre healers from great healers.

If you honestly want to aim to improve yourself you will strive and adapt to play your class to the best of your abilility that you are capable of doing. That's really all there is to it if that's your goal.

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Originally Posted by Zer0

No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

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This attitude right here it's why you don't improve. And that's why people will keep "harassing" you in DF. Keeping people alive is the bare minimum for a healer.

Bad players are:
Adrenaline junkies who don't care about story, lore, or worldling, and only play RPGs because they don't quite have the reflexes for FPSs.
People who buy story skips and level boosts for their first character.
People who only do what they need to gear up for and complete the latest raid and say there is no more content when they have only done 1% of it.

Those are all filthy, stinking casuals in my book.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

1. This is a damage centric MMO, you healing is designed to be pretty goddamn powerful to facilitate dealing as much damage as possible on healing classes, if you "just want to heal", I'd maybe suggest another MMO, or not playing healer, cos healers in this game are designed to deal damage. Doing more damage is the defacto way to improve yourself as there's no other valuable metric to judge by.

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I just want to piggyback on this and ask the name of the MMO where you're a healer that JUST heals because I want to know where people got this weird idea you're supposed to do nothing but spam HP restoration skills. I've played; Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Tera, Aion, Asheron's Call 2, Dungeon and Dragons Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Wakfu, Ragnarok Online, Vanguard, Wildstar, Archeage, and at least a half-dozen other MMOs I've forgotten the name of. In not a single one of them was the 'healer' expecting to do nothing but heal. It's driving me insane, where is the idea that 'I play a healer I should only heal' come from!?

In terms of the topic itself, first thing that comes to mind are people who refuse to use no-cost (as in an ogcD that doesn't reduce their output at all) aggro-reduction skills and strip aggro from the tank like you're proving a point that you're outdamaging their aggro generation.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

This attitude right here it's why you don't improve.

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If they're clearing the content they are queueing for, why is it bad if they don't want to "improve" (which really means be optimal). Lots of people play this game entirely as a casual leisure activity, they aren't looking to be the number 1 players in their area, they're just looking to do the content for fun, and as long as they aren't actively hindering people from doing content I don't see why that makes them a "bad player" it just doesn't make them a raider.

On the flip side I have 100% had content fail because people got toxic over other people not doing their job "properly" and quitting dungeons mid dungeon, yelling at people getting them to quit, etc. That actively does cause people to fail content that should honestly never be failable and wastes everyones time. If people can't deal with the fact that not everyone has the same mind set as them in a game like this, they should go play single player games instead.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

A few answers to this:

If you're one of the healers who doesnt dps, and just heals, and a significant amount of healers actually do damage and keep parties alive while doing it, you are, in comparison to the whole, a bad player.

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So are they bad players even if they keep everyone alive without risking the well-being of the party? I would be slow to call them bad because they can clearly do their primary role just fine. I would merely call them serviceable. Like a boring cheap car. It gets you from A to B but it's nothing special. I wouldn't bring them to savage for similar reasons why I wouldn't bring that unremarkable car to a F1 race. But for normal stuff both are fine even if they're not ideal.

A bad healer is someone who either cannot heal a normal combat situation effectively even when they try, or someone who plays their class as if they're in a savage team who carefully planned their healing spells and mitigation so they could pump out as much dps as possible, even though they're with a pug who made no such plans...and they continue to do so even though it's clear that more healing needs to be done.

Both of these are far worse than a pure healer who can keep everyone alive. Yes it's annoying when the healer does no dps when they clearly have time to, but healer dps is far from a requirement in normal mode content. I prefer to do things a bit slower and be confident that everyone will stay alive, rather than be stressing out because the healer acts like only mobs can lose hp. These healers are the bane of my existence when I play rdm. It's annoying that I have to stop dpsing and toss out heals to keep the tank alive because they're too busy pretending they're an all-star savage player to do the most basic requirements of their role properly.

The few times I have been curious enough about these players to look them up in fflogs, each time none of them had anything resembling impressive savage kills as healers, if any at all. Which is why I say "too busy pretending". Likely they read a healing guide intended for top tier savage raiding, and they lack the presence of mind to realise that this particular playstyle can be destructive if you just blindly do it all the time. This is definitely a definition of a bad player. Someone who copies what top tier savage raiders do without thinking about whether it's appropriate for the given situation or not.

Basically to me, two things.

-A player who refuses to adapt, listen or learn. You can be a fast learner or a really slow learner, that's fine. If you're willing to improve, you will make progress. If you refuse to improve, either by arrogance, putting the blame on others, expect a carry because "lul it's easy" or unwillingness to contribute, you never make progress.

-A player who refuses to offer help or advice, abuses other party members or is generally impatient, rushes because "lul it's easy" or leaves on the first wipe. This sort of player can have an Ultimate clear under their belt and be just as harmful or worse to the team than a new sprout who stands in the fire. They wreck team morale, cause wipes and mistakes by rushing due to other members being unprepared, ruin the focus of the group, contribute no help. You flat out don't want this type of player in your group.

To me a Bad player isn't someone who tries but rather the opposite. We all have off days or are new to something now and then and the stress level amps up when it seems like somethings going wrong. A Bad player is someone thats overconfident in thier abilities and wind up being far too lax in thier approach to thier role to the point that they will wall to wall pull and due to that lose aggro because their healer has to spam cures and sheilds like no tomorrow and then when the healers are low on mp go and pull more to the pile.

Lets not forget the healer that over DPSes and loses track of healing this happens alot more often than people think it would.

And then theres the DPS thats in such a rush that they wind up facepulling more mobs thinking the tank and the healer will pick up the raid pass often not realising that the tank is past thier safe limit or that the healer is running low from bad healing choices.

Not only these things but these selfsame players then have the gall to start berating and insulting other players usually sprouts for not doing it right. These are bad players noone else.

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Originally Posted by ltsquigs

If they're clearing the content they are queueing for, why is it bad if they don't want to "improve" (which really means be optimal). Lots of people play this game entirely as a casual leisure activity, they aren't looking to be the number 1 players in their area, they're just looking to do the content for fun, and as long as they aren't actively hindering people from doing content I don't see why that makes them a "bad player" it just doesn't make them a raider.

On the flip side I have 100% had content fail because people got toxic over other people not doing their job "properly" and quitting dungeons mid dungeon, yelling at people getting them to quit, etc. That actively does cause people to fail content that should honestly never be failable and wastes everyones time. If people can't deal with the fact that not everyone has the same mind set as them in a game like this, they should go play single player games instead.

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I disagree.

It's not about clearing the content or not, because yeah, you can spend 90 minutes in that dungeon and clear it, but I can assure you the majority of the players don't want that. It's about using all your tools. I beg of you, don't use extremes as an example. A healer that DPS isn't aspiring to become the #1 of the bunch, an elitist top tier raider that got lost in a dungeon with a bunch of casual. It's a player that realizes they have more buttons than Cure II and Medica and they want to support the party with these skills. It's the same thing than a DPS using their utility. Why should they do that? Their job is to DPS, not to regenerate your MP, not to mitigate the mob's damage, not to benefit the party with increased healing. It's the same: You have tools, use them. Healers have a huge arsenal of DPS skills and a lot of downtime when healing. So they can definitely pull this off. A tank doesn't have to remain at 100% of their HP ALL the time.

It is a bad player. I won't sugar coat this. FOR WHATEVER REASON YOU WANT, they are not using their class at with all their available tools.

Reminds me of this meme:

https://img.fireden.net/v/image/1490...0423290088.jpg

Also, if you read the person I quoted closely, they complain that they can't improve because they get "harassed". But if you explain to them how the game has been played for the past 5 years, they snap at you, calling you elitist wannabe and throw a fit how "I play my way". They were lacking the "You don't pay my sub" for the full meme. The advice of asking people that want to perform well to go and do pre-mades work both ways, by the way.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Lets not forget the healer that over DPSes and loses track of healing this happens alot more often than people think it would.

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I've had it happen maybe 1% of the time. Most healers in the game have been pretty good. I've honestly done well over 1k dungeons as a tank and it's not been an issue. Also, why would it be happening a lot more than people think it's happening? We're all playing the game, aren't we? Our collective perception IS what happens in the game.

One time I accidentally joined a DF as a Marauder instead of a Warrior. I felt really bad that I messed that up, but the other players were really nice about it. We managed to get through it though. I love it when other people offer advice on how to play my classes. It makes the game more lively!

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I've had it happen maybe 1% of the time. Most healers in the game have been pretty good. I've honestly done well over 1k dungeons as a tank and it's not been an issue. Also, why would it be happening a lot more than people think it's happening? We're all playing the game, aren't we? Our collective perception IS what happens in the game.

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I just got out of an Orbonne run where this happened to a healer during the trash before Cid. Wasn't really a big deal tbh because, as you said, it honestly just doesn't happen very often. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen it. I teased them about it momentarily and moved on. It's funny when it does happen, at least imo.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

I disagree.

It's not about clearing the content or not, because yeah, you can spend 90 minutes in that dungeon and clear it, but I can assure you the majority of the players don't want that. It's about using all your tools. I beg of you, don't use extremes as an example. A healer that DPS isn't aspiring to become the #1 of the bunch, an elitist top tier raider that got lost in a dungeon with a bunch of casual. It's a player that realizes they have more buttons than Cure II and Medica and they want to support the party with these skills. It's the same thing than a DPS using their utility. Why should they do that? Their job is to DPS, not to regenerate your MP, not to mitigate the mob's damage, not to benefit the party with increased healing. It's the same: You have tools, use them. Healers have a huge arsenal of DPS skills and a lot of downtime when healing. So they can definitely pull this off. A tank doesn't have to remain at 100% of their HP ALL the time.

It is a bad player. I won't sugar coat this. FOR WHATEVER REASON YOU WANT, they are not using their class at with all their available tools.
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I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the healer doesn't DPS while everyone else stays solid, that's at most, 5 extra minutes tacked onto the dungeon. 90 minutes doesn't happen if things are going right, even if it's slow.

If I see the attitude of the group slowly turn for the worse due to repeated wipes I just leave the instance as there is nothing beneficial that can be said at that stage.

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the healer doesn't DPS while everyone else stays solid, that's at most, 5 extra minutes tacked onto the dungeon. 90 minutes doesn't happen if things are going right, even if it's slow.

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No.

I meant the dungeon can take up to 90 min and still be cleared. I didn't imply that the healer contribution would make such an absurd difference. My point was that contribution matters, using your full toolkit is something that you should get used to, no matter what role you play. If you can shave 5 min off a run? Then why don't you do it? It adds up. Everyone pushing their DPS helps the party as a whole. You can skip phases that force a downtime, you can kill things faster before the tank runs out of CDs, you can help the melee DPS specifically to go ham on AoE damage and since everyone is helping, things would die faster before they run out of resources. You can even carry said DPS not contributing as much as they should.

See? This is my issue right here. Everyone is "memememe' and don't even think or they completely oversee the fact that their contribution is helping the group and, ultimately, yourself. Lack of teamwork was repeatedly mentioned here as a trait of a bad player.

I'll also add that I'm perfectly happy even if it's a LITTLE bit of extra damage. Even tossing an aero or the SCH DoTs is fine and dandy. Hell both WHM and SCH (and I assume AST too) have literal free OGCD damage skills in Assize and shadow flare so it would be pretty difficult to not do at least some damage.

Honest question. Players who only want to share parties with people who are experienced and know their class cold, who follow their rotation by the book... why not just use party finder and include a small note that says you prefer to play with very experienced players who are confident in their rotation?

It's not reasonable to expect everyone to play this particular game the same way. It's not as simple as tic-tac-toe. Some people go in with an RP focus. Some people go with lore or glamour focus. Some go with mechanics focus. Some like a little of everything. You're only going to be disappointed if you go into duty finder and expect everyone there to conform to what you're looking for, and if your reaction to disappointment is to lash out then not only are you going to have a bad time, so will the other people there. Why do that when you have a better chance of getting what you want and not making others miserable in party finder?

This isn't a matter of whether you're allowed to give critique or not give critique. But there's a difference between going "hey X, you should be using Grit here" and going "GDI X stop being such a shitty dark knight and put Grit on you're slowing the whole party down". Having someone react badly to the former? Yeah, that's obnoxious. But the latter even if the critique was valid is going to wreck things all around when it didn't have to.

Again, I mean this all sincerely. If there's a reason party finder wouldn't address the problem I'd like to know. If it might address the problem but hasn't been tried then that's less frustration for everyone.

Any player who purposely leeches (your cat is destroying your room in the background is fair enough reason to have to step away for a second lol, I mean people who enter with that purpose), and anyone who demands and requires others to carry their weight. Those two overlap a bit but sometimes you have someone who's like "yeah I don't use tank stance" and they have awful gear and cannot hold aggro against a single spell and you ask for tank stance and they're like "nah just do less damage" (or insert whatever problem here, I'm not picking on tanks). Bad gear happens sometimes on accident and people can adjust a bit usually to compensate- I'm talking about something like a healer refusing to leave cleric stance back when it nerfed healing and had bad heals due to bad gear in the first place.. . . . . . Ima cry.

If someone doesn't play very well but doesn't expect others to carry them (trying to play, even if it's not great) then we're going to have a fun time struggling together, but if you're like "I died because the healer didn't heal me enough, they sux vote kick them" meanwhile they refused to dodge any aoes or didn't use any abilities beyond "1". . . yeeeh..... lol.

Now the standards go up a bit for savage/ex content but imo that's different. Bad to me is just someone who doesn't care about playing in any sense and expects others to play for them, often with a bad attitude.

Don't need to be a skilled player to be a "good" player in my mind. Nice + trying to play = I'm happy, let's play together!

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the healer doesn't DPS while everyone else stays solid, that's at most, 5 extra minutes tacked onto the dungeon. 90 minutes doesn't happen if things are going right, even if it's slow.

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It's not really about that though. It's about being courteous to the other players in your group. When you do not have to perform the primary function of your role, this is considered 'downtime', and all roles are not created equally. What this means is that due to the nature of their role, DPS have zero downtime. They have some non-damage/supportive skills but these are typically ogcds that are weaved between their gcds. Tank downtime is when they no longer need to generate aggro. They acquire it quickly, and adding more enmity when it is not needed is a waste of their DPS potential, which is quite respectable in DPS stance. Healer downtime on the other hand, is when no healing/cleanses/raises are required. Without question they have the highest amount of downtime out of the three roles. What this all translates to is that a healer who stands around waiting to heal up damage is quite literally doing far less than everyone else. It just isn't cool.

Believe me, I totally understand wanting to heal and it being what you signed up for when choosing this role. But let me also so say this, content that requires a ton of healing is very stressful. Not only do you have to worry about the unavoidable stuff, you also have to take care of yourself and anyone else who takes unnecessary damage. When players are learning and having trouble with certain mechanics, this is the type of stuff that drives people to Homer Simpson levels of baldness. I love me a good schitefest, but there are limits to it. It is true that healer DPS is not factored into even the toughest of clears, but what this does is allows healers to help push very valuable and helpful DPS. It is greatly appreciated from all members of the group and will lead to the healer getting tons of comms.

My advice is to at least try. No one is expecting savage raid levels of optimization of your DPS kits with the exception of a few random doucherockets, but ignore them. Toss out some DoTs, stones, malefics, and broils here and there. It makes more of a difference than you think.

Just ran into what I'd call bad players:

Queued for Doma Castle as a Paladin and eats food buff. We get to the first boss. Takes 10 minutes to kill the first boss and I was legitimately TP starved.

[12:48 a.m.](Me) So.. you guys know how to play your classes? D: I've never had a dungeon boss take so long to kill.
[12:48 a.m.](Me) Genuinely asking.
[12:49 a.m.](Black Mage) yes i know how
[12:49 a.m.](Samurai) reported
[12:49 a.m.](Samurai) bullying
[12:49 a.m.](Me) I'm not bullying, but I am asking so I can help as another player.
[12:49 a.m.](Samurai) im gonna kill myself

Samurai proceeds to pull the Vanguard and run back to me. I grab the add and just watch what they do. Black Mage proceeds to cast only Fire III and then Blizzard when they are at about 20% MP left. Samurai is not keeping Shifu and Jinpu buffs up; only skill I've seen them put up is Higanbana (no Tenka Goken for adds, no AoE in general for 4+ enemies, and no Midare Setsugekka).

[12:52 a.m.](Me) Okay, well, just watching this last fight, the two DPS could use work. I'm going to dip out under difference of playstyle. You guys enjoy your run. :3

I ate the leaving penalty. I have no problems with teaching players how to fight properly - I did this for a tank I wind up in an expert with years ago. However, even as a mentor, I did not sign up to encourage this kind of mentality the two above showed. I gave them both a chance to ask questions and let them know I knew something was wrong. From other mentor encounters, I've forcibly accepted that if players don't ask for or want help if you offer it, you're often wasting your time.