New ToS gives hope for official DPS meters?

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

like one provided by SE itself? As that'll be the only way I think. Anything having to do with mods are a no go by sony tho. Also cause of the Nico thing SE wouldn't do it sadly. As a PS4 player I like knowing my numbers on my Sam and monk. :c

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Yes, and they could make it so it only parses yourself and also they could add a warning when you start the parse that sharing your parse might bring in criticism as well as warning against criticizing others in a mean/belittling manner so people would be informed if they choose to use it and then choose to share it.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I'd never been harassed over it, but I felt very uncomfortable with it. Ultimately I decided to opt out just like I've opted out of telemarketing and junk mail. It's an intrusion I'd prefer to do without. What's so wrong with that?

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Then I don't see how it's an issue with parsers per se if you don't raid or do high endgame content you're not even actively hounded for your DPS or performance since the only reason you'd know is if you went to FFlogs, typed in your name, and saw you were parsed. It doesn't even mean anything in low end content/leveling what people complain about is using your actual abilities in a group setting no one cares that you were grey in an expert, no one cares that you're 100% in an expert people just gauge it because they like to see where they stand I've never seen it as a shaming tool.

Not to mention you can just hide yourself and no one will even know you exist or do any kind of battle content if you prefer that, I don't get how it's an intrusion when you don't even know if you're being parsed even if you turned it off of your profile. Besides in dungeons and such you can tell who's not pulling their weight very easily (DPS that don't AoE, Healers that spam Cure II and don't DPS, tanks that pull the world and use 0 CDs and 1-2-3 bosses) the games very team oriented just like any other MMO.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

A lot of games have leader-boards. Mainstream games like Super Mario Odyssey have online leader-boards for mini games.

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The difference is many leader boards are created by the game company. So by playing those games you are agreeing to leader board use. This isn't the case with FFLogs or a parser in FF because these are third party tools and SE have publicly stated they are against the TOS. By playing FFXIV you're actually agreeing to not use third party tools, therefore you're also not agreeing to have your combat number results become public information.

I get that combat numbers are hardly private information in the grand scheme of things but the point I'm making is there is a big difference between an official leader board, and a community generated one whose use the devs are famously against.

So while I personally don't care if I'm in FFLogs, I can understand some people who feel like "wait, this isn't even supported by the devs in any manner. I didn't sign up for this and the devs don't even want us to either. I thought I could escape parser abuse in this game."

I meant specifically in-game parsers provided by Square-Enix. That way it's fair for all clients.

I think that as long as fights have enrage timers being an important mechanic check. That it's important for players to actually measure themselves against the enrage timer.

While it's true that having rules doesn't always prevent bad behavior. The stricter enforcement of the ToS and rules 'has to have some effect' on the community, or else Square-Enix would shrug and say "well, it don't matter, why are we paying someone to write all this down?"

The fact that Square-Enix went out of their way to shore up the ToS, and put in a lot of extra effort to write it out for the players. And additional effort on the GM's behalfs to screen through all the new reports that are sure to trickle in--means that Square-Enix believes that the rules will be effective in curbing a problem. And if there's no toxicity problem--then parsers could exist without contention.

Either way, Square-Enix put in a lot of money and effort to tighten the ToS. There has to be a reason for it. I just think it'd be cool if official parsers was part of that reason.

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Personally, I'm all for parsers as long as fights have enrage checks. If they removed enrage checks then I wouldn't care.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

People who "support parse" don't say that this never happen.
As long as humans exists, you'll have people to make good or bad things with certain tools.
That's just all.

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In saying "support parsers" I am not saying every person who uses them, but the people who make threads asking for them officially, claiming they cause no issues in the community. Speak no evil is working well for the most part. However, if such a tool was to be put into the hands of everyone, an officially supported non the less, it would encourage such toxic and disgusting behavior that was displayed in the koike incident.

Stone, sky, sea is the best we are getting and it works fine. The only reason people don't like it is because it requires you to put a bit of thought into the results instead of telling flat numbers.

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Originally Posted by Endeleon

In saying "support parsers" I am not saying every person who uses them, but the people who make threads asking for them officially, claiming they cause no issues in the community. Speak no evil is working well for the most part. However, if such a tool was to be put into the hands of everyone, an officially supported non the less, it would encourage such toxic and disgusting behavior that was displayed in the koike incident.

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Yeah, but the ToS got tighter. That means even if people were toxic--they'd only be toxic once. Then they'd get banned and the only people left would be the ones who aren't toxic. And if there's no toxic people--then parsers should be accepted.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

Yeah, but the ToS got tighter. That means even if people were toxic--they'd only be toxic once. Then they'd get banned and the only people left would be the ones who aren't toxic. And if there's no toxic people--then parsers should be accepted.

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You're forgetting that enforcing the ToS often requires people to make reports, especially in cases of bad behaviour. A lot of people don't report players because they don't know how, don't know they can, are too lazy, or they feel so demoralised that they think it is pointless. The final one is sadly more common than you would think.

The ToS being tighter isn't enough. SE rely heavily on GM tickets to find problem players. The ticket and report systems would need to be far more streamlined to encourage more reports. Reporting players for RMT is easy and quick. We would need similar to report other types of bad behaviour and to have players actively using it a lot, before anyone can even begin to argue that a tighter ToS will have a noticeable effect on the amount of toxic players in the game.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

No one cares, and yet people are parsing and posting the results anyway.

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I highly doubt they are doing it out of malice. You can also set triggers while parsing, so people will run them outside of Savage to hear party buffs and act accordingly, so it's helpful from an optimization standpoint regardless of the content. Either way, it's a 24 man, so no one really cares about those parses other than the person who uploaded it manually (assuming it wasn't a live log). You can also hide your parses as well and keep them private.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

Stone, sky, sea is the best we are getting and it works fine. The only reason people don't like it is because it requires you to put a bit of thought into the results instead of telling flat numbers.

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Stone Sea Sky is a poor substitute. It's only real use is the resetting of cds for practicing openers. Most people killing the dummy just plug their %hp or time remaining into an external site to get a flat number anyway.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

Stone Sea Sky is a poor substitute. It's only real use is the resetting of cds for practicing openers. Most people killing the dummy just plug their %hp or time remaining into an external site to get a flat number anyway.

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Be that as it may as yes it is limiting. It does help on a basic level. If you're not killing the dummy then your opener and rotation arent good enough for it. Therefore your dps is not up to par. You can and do get that from it. Yes you wont get details but if you're failing you know you're failing. So in that respect it working as intended.

They're pretty indispensable tools for fine-tuning performance for high end content, and also for early clears of some content with dps checks. Yes, people can abuse them - and that ought to be the focus. I really don't see the issue with their use as long as they're not used as a hammer to bludgeon other players.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Something about an official SE streamer getting harassed live for poor performance? Somebody else will probably reply with more details. I wasn't active when said event happened but I did hear of it, which speaks of it's impact on the parser stance of both SE and the community.

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So basically a streamer got harrassed on a streaming plattform? Nothing new and honestly no reason to not allow parsers. Most streamers get targeted BECAUSE they are streaming and because some people feel cool if they can troll around in live streams.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

So basically a streamer got harrassed on a streaming plattform? Nothing new and honestly no reason to not allow parsers. Most streamers get targeted BECAUSE they are streaming and because some people feel cool if they can troll around in live streams.

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Streaming is a form of publicity and what happened in that incident isn't good publicity at all no matter what way you look at it. That was not a shining moment for the FFXIV community. Far from it. No one wants their game to become known as a place where harassment incidents are given a public platform. Even Riot clamped down on bad behaviour in LoL because the bad reputation of the playerbase was not something they wanted.

And that streaming incident happened in Japan. A place where manners, humble demeanour and not shaking the boat is very important, even online. It would have been ten times worse in the west where people are far more vocal about the performance quality of others.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

So basically a streamer got harrassed on a streaming plattform? Nothing new and honestly no reason to not allow parsers. Most streamers get targeted BECAUSE they are streaming and because some people feel cool if they can troll around in live streams.

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After reading what happened I can safely say that this official SE streamer was not only harassed about parses and had the group trolling by spinning the boss around to set her up to fail so they could make fun of her (typical junk to us), she was evidently sexually harassed afterwards. So basically it was one of the worst cases of what can happen with parses being an excuse. JP players are generally very polite and can work together better than us troglodytes over in NA who are going through things like frequent mass shootings and political unrest, so just imagine what we'd do to each other if we had even the slightest excuse.

As a culture we will bully one another and tell our victims to stop being so sensitive, encourage each other to kill ourselves, stalk each other, threaten each other, troll, grief, etc, for 'fun'. Are we acting out due to what's going on in our country right now? Are we just socialized to treat each other like trash? Who knows. But the fact that you seem to dismiss something like 'being harassed on a streaming platform' as nothing just shows how desensitized we are to this behavior.

This kind of nasty socializing has been part of our gaming culture for quite some time (cough WoW cough), but it's clear SE doesn't want that kind of thing to happen. Everyone should have a chance to enjoy the game. You should not have to deal with people harassing you, stalking you, bullying you, when you're just trying to have fun.

Since quite a lot of folks in this thread don’t know/are asking about the Koike incident, here you go.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ingame_parser/

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Originally Posted by Awful

Then I don't see how it's an issue with parsers per se if you don't raid or do high endgame content you're not even actively hounded for your DPS or performance since the only reason you'd know is if you went to FFlogs, typed in your name, and saw you were parsed. It doesn't even mean anything in low end content/leveling what people complain about is using your actual abilities in a group setting no one cares that you were grey in an expert, no one cares that you're 100% in an expert people just gauge it because they like to see where they stand I've never seen it as a shaming tool.

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See that's the thing. You don't have to understand my apprehension, and I really have nothing to justify to you or anyone else. To me, it's those not following the official TOS that need to justify to the rest of us why others should be parsed without consent and have to opt out if we don't like it. Whether it causes me any additional annoyance, harm, etc is really beside the point.

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Not to mention you can just hide yourself and no one will even know you exist or do any kind of battle content if you prefer that, I don't get how it's an intrusion when you don't even know if you're being parsed even if you turned it off of your profile. Besides in dungeons and such you can tell who's not pulling their weight very easily (DPS that don't AoE, Healers that spam Cure II and don't DPS, tanks that pull the world and use 0 CDs and 1-2-3 bosses) the games very team oriented just like any other MMO.

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Sure, and I have hidden it. Why should I have had to though? Now cue people being suspicious and claiming I have something to hide, as though having something to hide is even an inherently bad thing. I have blinds on my windows too. And if you can pinpoint most problems by just eyeballing them then what's the need of a parser anyway?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Streaming is a form of publicity and what happened in that incident isn't good publicity at all no matter what way you look at it. That was not a shining moment for the FFXIV community. Far from it. No one wants their game to become known as a place where harassment incidents are given a public platform. Even Riot clamped down on bad behaviour in LoL because the bad reputation of the playerbase was not something they wanted.

And that streaming incident happened in Japan. A place where manners, humble demeanour and not shaking the boat is very important, even online. It would have been ten times worse in the west where people are far more vocal about the performance quality of others.

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It is never a shining moment for any community when anyone gets harrassed and i never said its ok but to take this as a excuse for not allowing parsers would be unreasonable. I know that riot is officially trying to clamp that down but they are still only scratching at the tip of the iceberg and they are not really doing that much when it comes to behaviour in their game, but lets stop here because we are not talking about LoL.

Japanese people are more polite in the open but you can bet that they are as nasty as everyone else when they talk behind someones back.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

After reading what happened I can safely say that this official SE streamer was not only harassed about parses and had the group trolling by spinning the boss around to set her up to fail so they could make fun of her (typical junk to us), she was evidently sexually harassed afterwards. So basically it was one of the worst cases of what can happen with parses being an excuse. JP players are generally very polite and can work together better than us troglodytes over in NA who are going through things like frequent mass shootings and political unrest, so just imagine what we'd do to each other if we had even the slightest excuse.

As a culture we will bully one another and tell our victims to stop being so sensitive, encourage each other to kill ourselves, stalk each other, threaten each other, troll, grief, etc, for 'fun'. Are we acting out due to what's going on in our country right now? Are we just socialized to treat each other like trash? Who knows. But the fact that you seem to dismiss something like 'being harassed on a streaming platform' as nothing just shows how desensitized we are to this behavior.

This kind of nasty socializing has been part of our gaming culture for quite some time (cough WoW cough), but it's clear SE doesn't want that kind of thing to happen. Everyone should have a chance to enjoy the game. You should not have to deal with people harassing you, stalking you, bullying you, when you're just trying to have fun.

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Your first paragraph sounds like the typical behaviour of the gaming community torwards female gamers which is a pretty idiotic behaviour.

I know you all think that japanese people are always polite and stuff but you saw that they are not and if they are they are most likely only polite when they talk to you directly. You won't know what they are talking behind someones back but you can get a good guess after what happened to this streamer.

But both quoted posts just showed that it is what i wrote: a streamer got harrassed while streaming because some people are idiots. The fact that the streamer is a female and that it was the oh so polite japanese com doesn't really change a thing. Some people are dicks not matter where they live, no matter of their gender and no matter what they play.

Man, this topic is depressing for free will.

The idea that people are putting out is that parsers are bad, because people can't control themselves, and will become bullies. Inciting that parsers will cause the playerbase to be unhinged. Why do we have to assume that players are toxic and prohibit tools, because the assumption is that people are by default toxic.

We just got these new ToS rules that will punish offenders. Can't we play by 'innocent until proven guilty?"

I don't even know if I like the idea that the community would rather proactively restrict people on the off-chance they'd be toxic just to preserve some idealistic utopia. What are they going to do next? Remove our ability to type in PvP? I'd rather a gaming company treat me like a person with personal responsibility and not like a dog that needs to be muzzled, because they're distrustful of us out the gate. That's insulting to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

See that's the thing. You don't have to understand my apprehension, and I really have nothing to justify to you or anyone else. To me, it's those not following the official TOS that need to justify to the rest of us why others should be parsed without consent and have to opt out if we don't like it. Whether it causes me any additional annoyance, harm, etc is really beside the point.

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You're right I don't because I never will have to justify myself for optimizing myself in how I want to play the game and you can go ahead and play how you want to, people are going to abuse it somehow just like how people abuse ignorance is bliss by under preforming in any kind of content. There's always people breaking the TOS just because a parse that is a 3rd party tool that helps the game better for people who want to use it doesn't mean it's inherently bad, should Shaders also be shown as an advantage for people who use it as well?

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Sure, and I have hidden it. Why should I have had to though? Now cue people being suspicious and claiming I have something to hide, as though having something to hide is even an inherently bad thing. I have blinds on my windows too. And if you can pinpoint most problems by just eyeballing them then what's the need of a parser anyway?

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No one said anything about you being suspicious nor did I it's honestly on you if you want to hide it or not no ones gonna send you spam mail or any kind of harassment because you did 0 DPS as a healer in a story mode since you don't do any hard content. That's not the point that you can eyeball it and see unless you yourself are not paying attention at all it's common sense you see a SMN not use any DoTs and realize "wow this guys not using Bane and we're in the Burn!" that's not on the parsers fault that's on the person.

If you've had 0 bad interactions with parsing and no one has bugged you about it then why be against the idea of an actual parser where you can control and not have it posted online for all to see if you're that worried that way it's regulated to yourself and no one else. It's either you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, yeah you don't have to justify yourself but you don't speak for the rest of the people who want custom UIs, raid addons, PvP addons, etc should they also be thrown away at the door?

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Originally Posted by Camiie

See that's the thing. You don't have to understand my apprehension, and I really have nothing to justify to you or anyone else. To me, it's those not following the official TOS that need to justify to the rest of us why others should be parsed without consent and have to opt out if we don't like it. Whether it causes me any additional annoyance, harm, etc is really beside the point.




Sure, and I have hidden it. Why should I have had to though? Now cue people being suspicious and claiming I have something to hide, as though having something to hide is even an inherently bad thing. I have blinds on my windows too. And if you can pinpoint most problems by just eyeballing them then what's the need of a parser anyway?

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You act like people are parsing because they want to see you in particular. That's...not how it works outside of raids most of the time. if you don't raid, what is the issue? Nobody really cares outside of high-end raiding. Seriously, most people really do not care outside of it.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

Man, this topic is depressing for free will.
The idea that people are putting out is that parsers are bad, because people can't control themselves, and will become bullies. Inciting that parsers will cause the playerbase to be unhinged. Why do we have to assume that players are toxic and prohibit tools, because the assumption is that people are by default toxic.
We just got these new ToS rules that will punish offenders. Can't we play by 'innocent until proven guilty?"
I don't even know if I like the idea that the community would rather proactively restrict people on the off-chance they'd be toxic just to preserve some idealistic utopia. What are they going to do next? Remove our ability to type in PvP? I'd rather a gaming company treat me like a person with personal responsibility and not like a dog that needs to be muzzled, because they're distrustful of us out the gate. That's insulting to be honest.

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Exactly.
If players calling others on their dps are toxic, what kind of players could it be that run bots in roullette or play on split screen on two accounts doing like bottom 1-10% on the performance chart for their job, making the duty at least two times harder and longer to the others who they are playing with?
And i mean here a real thing, because it happened to me already three times on last week, dps not doing their job properly, not using aoe abilities, not throwing out buffs or debuffs, doing single rotation to single target on a trash mobs pull, by the time it will be killed you used already all of your useful CD's since healer has to pull out more sweat as well when doing dps.
Someone playing dps properly does not mind, because he could dish out so much damage it does not matter if the other dps does anything useful, but he should place himself in a boots of a tank and healer who has to keep the party up for all that time in which dps is so low, it could be lower than a tank of healer...
Thats super cheesy if you meet a ultra-gray dpses on your tank or healer, really. It never happened to me before i gave myself a break from the game, but when i came back it is now somehow rampant. I dont really believe a bad player could be that bad, maybe if he is undergeared and plays the job for 1 time then maybe he could be gray under 20%, but other than that i think most of them are simply trolling or not paying any focus on the game at all, watching something on the second screen, because why should they care, if tank is alive and healer is "good" then it does not matter for them if the run will take 10, 20 or 30 minutes longer...

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

Man, this topic is depressing for free will.

The idea that people are putting out is that parsers are bad, because people can't control themselves, and will become bullies. Inciting that parsers will cause the playerbase to be unhinged. Why do we have to assume that players are toxic and prohibit tools, because the assumption is that people are by default toxic.

We just got these new ToS rules that will punish offenders. Can't we play by 'innocent until proven guilty?"

I don't even know if I like the idea that the community would rather proactively restrict people on the off-chance they'd be toxic just to preserve some idealistic utopia. What are they going to do next? Remove our ability to type in PvP? I'd rather a gaming company treat me like a person with personal responsibility and not like a dog that needs to be muzzled, because they're distrustful of us out the gate. That's insulting to be honest.

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Have you played games online before? There is no question that this would cause more bulling. A large portion of people online will use anything they can get their hands on to make themselves look better and put down everyone else. It is human nature and the added anonym let's more people feel comfortable doing it. There are already lots of people in this game that bully and insult others or minor things( my old FC fell apart due due to somebody calling ARR and expac) why would we want to give them a new target?

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Originally Posted by spf1200

Have you played games online before? There is no question that this would cause more bulling. A large portion of people online will use anything they can get their hands on to make themselves look better and put down everyone else. It is human nature and the added anonym let's more people feel comfortable doing it. There are already lots of people in this game that bully and insult others or minor things( my old FC fell apart due due to somebody calling ARR and expac) why would we want to give them a new target?

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FFXIV isn't like other MMOs, and it's not anonymous. The ToS means that Square-Enix can jump in instantly punish anyone who breaks the rules by harassing other players. The moment someone harasses another person--they'll get suspended. People won't want to get suspended so they'll behave. And then we could enjoy DPS meters in peace. Bullies would be too afraid to lash out, because they'd lose their accounts. And those people who can't control themselves will get banned. It's really win/win.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

FFXIV isn't like other MMOs, and it's not anonymous. The ToS means that Square-Enix can jump in instantly punish anyone who breaks the rules by harassing other players. The moment someone harasses another person--they'll get suspended. People won't want to get suspended so they'll behave. And then we could enjoy DPS meters in peace. Bullies would be too afraid to lash out, because they'd lose their accounts. And those people who can't control themselves will get banned. It's really win/win.

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You seem way too innocent here -hug- But seriously, those new rules are in place because we as players failed in a way. We couldn't police ourselves so now they have to be tighter with the rules, and seeing how people trolled hardcore when blu came out I don't blame them. Apparently asking people by nature to leave each other alone and be respectable is too much to ask. Hell if it was that easy we'll never have people being banned here OR people breaking laws with minor offenseives and life seriously would be BETTER. But we don't live in that world, XIV may not be LoL but it's def not 100% sunshine and rainbows. Hell look at the tales of the duty finder thread. I rest my case. Typing on my phone sucks. Even if it is a s9 plus.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

FFXIV isn't like other MMOs, and it's not anonymous. The ToS means that Square-Enix can jump in instantly punish anyone who breaks the rules by harassing other players. The moment someone harasses another person--they'll get suspended. People won't want to get suspended so they'll behave. And then we could enjoy DPS meters in peace. Bullies would be too afraid to lash out, because they'd lose their accounts. And those people who can't control themselves will get banned. It's really win/win.

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Sorry but you're being very naive.

Tell me how will SE know about harassment if it's not reported? Not everyone reports harassment for many reasons I already told you about. SE don't have GMs hidden all over the game watching out for bad behaviour. The game doesn't magically know when harassment happens unless there is human intervention.

And what do you mean not like other mmos? Any mmo that takes your money makes the player lose some degree of anonymity, especially any with a subscription fee. I played WoW for ten years and even though back then (don't know about now) Blizzard handled harassment issues much faster and better than SE do, harassment continued to happen regularly anyway. It is frankly very wishful thinking to hope that any company could erase toxicity. The only way that would be possible is for the company to literally constantly babysit their entire playerbase.

Honestly, the whole community is depressing on this topic. I'd love to publicly use a parser as I like knowing the exact performance of my group to see who is the weak point and define how to address. Problem is the paranoia those against it have. Yet we have a thread with over 1k pages of bad DF performances. Double standards much?

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Honestly, the whole community is depressing on this topic. I'd love to publicly use a parser as I like knowing the exact performance of my group to see who is the weak point and define how to address. Problem is the paranoia those against it have. Yet we have a thread with over 1k pages of bad DF performances. Double standards much?

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Lets not imply that all bad performance is related directly to dps numbers. A lot of those posts are about people being rude, getting into silly fights, or just being terrible at doing mechanics.

And the problem with parsers isn't paranoia. The problem is the people who don't use them properly.

I got parser-related abuse in WoW because my dps was crap in a low lvl dungeon. But it was crap because everything was getting two-shot and the majority of my dps came from dots. They didn't have time to tick. Explaining this didn't help at all, they just told me to L2P. This was far from the first time I saw a dot-based dps get called out on bad numbers that weren't their fault. I once was given crap because I was playing a race that didn't have a racial that boosted my dps in a freaking lvl 20-something dungeon. Everything was dying super fast, my dps was very close to the highest, but someone decided I was a problem anyway. I saw players get kicked from lvling dungeons because they didn't have heirloom gear (which a new player won't have access to) so their dps would be "too low"...in content where things died super fast even without that gear.

If you think people are just being paranoid then I have to say that you're very fortunate to not be aware of how insanely petty and mean players can be without a remotely good reason.

Everyone who says parsers aren't the problem are right. Because they're not. The problem is people. They're the ones whose misuse is preventing their implementation into the game. So if you want to complain at someone for the lack of parsers, I suggest you direct it at anyone who is using them incorrectly as a form of harassment because they are the reason why SE are so strongly against them.

And before you say they're a minority, let me remind you that it can take just one bad egg to ruin a combat experience for everyone. I have many times seen one unwarranted dps criticism descend into an entire group having an argument.

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Everyone who says parsers aren't the problem are right. Because they're not. The problem is people

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Yeah, and if stricter rules from the change of the ToS results in a massive crackdown of toxic behavior--then we can get parsers? That's my question, lol. I know Parsers are difficult now, because we currently have toxic people. But Square-Enix wouldn;t be addressing their ToS unless they planned to strengthen their grip on toxic play. Which should make parsers usable, because all the toxic people will be suspended or paranoid of being suspended.

Oh please, of course people are the problem. I'm saying the problem people are on both sides of the fence here. Both the elitist jerks and the oversensitive pricks are to blame here.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

Yeah, and if stricter rules from the change of the ToS results in a massive crackdown of toxic behavior--then we can get parsers? That's my question, lol.

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And my question, lol, is why you think a ToS has such huge power? A ToS isn't a god-like entity that hunts for bad behaviour. Enforcing it well requires a fast and easy to use reporting system (which we currently only have for RMT), which means it relies on players first and then GMs. We would need vast improvements on the report system, likely far more GMs than there are now, and SE would need to somehow convince players that their first reaction to bad behaviour should be to report it.

You're literally skipping steps. If you want the ToS to lead the official parsers, then you need to ask for a better report system and GM service first. What we have right now is nowhere near enough for what you want.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

And my question, lol, is why you think a ToS has such huge power? A ToS isn't a god-like entity that hunts for bad behaviour. Enforcing it well requires a fast and easy to use reporting system (which we currently only have for RMT), which means it relies on players first and then GMs. We would need vast improvements on the report system, likely far more GMs than there are now, and SE would need to somehow convince players that their first reaction to bad behaviour should be to report it.

You're literally skipping steps. If you want the ToS to lead the official parsers, then you need to ask for a better report system and GM service first. What we have right now is nowhere near enough for what you want.

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That's pretty much why the new TOS didn't phase me all that much, outside from wanting clarification on a few points that seemed overly broad. While I have a lot of respect for the GMs of this game, the report feature is so lax it's almost comical. About two years ago we had someone on Balmung that made it their mission to harass a lot of people, with one person in particular bearing the brunt of it. While a lot of it was carried out outside of the game - this person also would go into Shout in the major cities multiple times and tell everyone to avoid the player they were bullying and even private message people they thought were sympathetic to do the same. On top of near weekly name changes, character changes, and FC changes to keep people confused of who they were - to the point many people on the server outright copied their lodestone ID to keep track of them. It only ended when they left for another server because they had officially pissed too many people off and good chunk of the active players had their lodestone page saved simply out of necessity to protect themselves. Not a single report was ever followed through, and believe me, many people reported them.

I do hope the new TOS is a sign that GM's are either going to take reports more seriously or will be able to work through them in a more efficient manner. However unless the GM's become more proactive or are /allowed/ to be more proactive, nothing will really come of it.

I don't see why Square Enix would go through all the effort and money to draft a a new Terms of Service if they weren't going to back it up with stronger enforcement. Unless you think it was just a scare tactic, but I don't think Square-Enix would do that.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

Yeah, and if stricter rules from the change of the ToS results in a massive crackdown of toxic behavior--then we can get parsers? That's my question, lol. I know Parsers are difficult now, because we currently have toxic people. But Square-Enix wouldn;t be addressing their ToS unless they planned to strengthen their grip on toxic play. Which should make parsers usable, because all the toxic people will be suspended or paranoid of being suspended.

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My counter to this is - there are toxic people everywhere. Let's not sit here and pretend that parsers are a large problem, because they really are not. You'll get more toxic people on average on something like the Steps of Faith, then you will elsewhere. I mean, shoot, you'll see it more often in Alliance runs, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

I don't see why Square Enix would go through all the effort and money to draft a a new Terms of Service if they weren't going to back it up with stronger enforcement. Unless you think it was just a scare tactic, but I don't think Square-Enix would do that.

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Because the ToS is a contract. It enables SE to take actions in any way they please as long as players agree to it, and they have to in order to play the game. It doesn't mean that SE are going to automatically back it all up with a new or better GM service, or a new or better report system. It simply grants SE more freedom to do more stuff. Literally nothing about updating a ToS obligates a company to change or improve their workforce or the software they use to work.

In short, you're jumping the gun. You're basically assuming some changes in how they view acceptable behaviour means they're restructuring the report and GM system in a huge way. When the most likely result is the only change we will see is that GMs will now take action in some matters they before did not, but in the exact same manner as they have been with other issues.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see restructuring and improvement across the board. But I'll believe it is happening when SE explicitly say so. A game company updating their ToS without changing any software or how their workforce is managed is actually pretty common. So unless SE say more, don't expect more.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Honestly, the whole community is depressing on this topic. I'd love to publicly use a parser as I like knowing the exact performance of my group to see who is the weak point and define how to address. Problem is the paranoia those against it have. Yet we have a thread with over 1k pages of bad DF performances. Double standards much?

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It's reasons like this that is exactly why they will never have an official parser. You're not even mentioning anything about improving your own skill, and instead want to use it for exploitative purposes to establish the weak link. Will the parser show that the lowest DPS had a prey marker, and the healer didn't heal or shield him resulting in being KO'd and his DPS plummeting? This is an honest question, not a rebuttal; unless it's true. Point being parsers don't tell the whole story.

The problem isn't the paranoia. The paranoia exists because of the problem, and the DF thread is a testament to the existence of said problem. If the exploitative properties were abused out east where they have more respect for each other, what do you think is going to happen on the DCs out west where everyone steps on each other to get to where they are going because we all think with the mindset of my time > your time?

Simply put, I truly believe personal parsers would go a long way to improve performances, but we're just not ready. There's too many toxic people out there. That's not paranoia. That's a fact.

To reply to the question, the weakest link might be me, it might be you, it might be someone else. Also yes, the parser will show he had a death and the detailed will show that this DPS received X ammount of damage and died as a result. You are the paranoia I described. Not knowing the full potential of a tool and just implying I'd use it to blame others.

Can't edit on mobile but I meant DPS received X damage from Y attack and died as a result. It's incredibly verbose.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

To reply to the question, the weakest link might be me, it might be you, it might be someone else. Also yes, the parser will show he had a death and the detailed will show that this DPS received X ammount of damage and died as a result. You are the paranoia I described. Not knowing the full potential of a tool and just implying I'd use it to blame others.

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I didn't imply it. You did.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Can't edit on mobile but I meant DPS received X damage from Y attack and died as a result. It's incredibly verbose.

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And the question wasn't if it shows "this DPS took x amount of damage from y", the question is does it show he/she had a prey marker and couldn't do jack to avoid the damage, making it the healer's fault why their DPS went down? If you can't read a post accurately, how can you be confided in reading fflogs accurately?