Performance-based roll system

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

For the regular 8 man and the 24 man raids, I think a system where you get a bonus to your roll based on how many times you've done it that week would work.

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Sort of like a bad luck protection. Something this game sorely needs.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

Any ideas on how we can make rolling on loot somewhat performance-based? I'm mainly talking about the non-savage duty funder type stuff like dungeons, normal raids, trials, etc. It would be nice to reward people who perform with a +20 to whatever they would've rolled so that there's an incentive to do your best instead of letting people carry you. It's kind of annoying to see players die to easy mechanics 4 times, contribute nothing, and then win the loot with a 95 roll while the people who actually did the work lose out.

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I don't think it'd work very well with anything that doesn't have granular rewards, especially without an accurate by-ilvl benchmark comparator.

Consider: you're trying to get actual gear from the dungeon. A Savage raider is also attending, looking for some glamour pieces. Having 50% more ilvl beyond the base for a level 70 than you do, he also does some 40% more throughput. You both roll what would have been 50s. He gets the loot. That wouldn't feel great.

And then there are the less just but still obvious issues. The truly bad players aren't going to be encouraged not to slack off by this. Unless they are almost literally prevented from getting loot -- at which point they throw a (in a significant way, deserved) fit here and/or unsubscribe -- they'll just do more runs, likely chalking it up to RNG as always. So, we just get to experience that poor play for more runs, while getting good players for fewer runs, accentuating the skill pyramid.

Should there be other ways to better encourage our players towards competence and some modicum of effort? Certainly. This just isn't one of the viable ways.

If anything, we probably just ought to see some silent normalization via bad luck protection, better player training and in-game support therefor, a more reasonable and continuous difficulty curve, and the like.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

For the regular 8 man and the 24 man raids, I think a system where you get a bonus to your roll based on how many times you've done it that week would work.

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Would that mean that at the end of the week, right before reset, everyones rolling 95+ every time and anyone who hasnt been grinding it all week doesnt have a chance?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Would that mean that at the end of the week, right before reset, everyones rolling 95+ every time and anyone who hasnt been grinding it all week doesnt have a chance?

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Well, the idea is more that people don't grind it all week, because they will eventually get their loot. It's more an idea to limit the grind.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

Any ideas on how we can make rolling on loot somewhat performance-based? I'm mainly talking about the non-savage duty funder type stuff like dungeons, normal raids, trials, etc. It would be nice to reward people who perform with a +20 to whatever they would've rolled so that there's an incentive to do your best instead of letting people carry you. It's kind of annoying to see players die to easy mechanics 4 times, contribute nothing, and then win the loot with a 95 roll while the people who actually did the work lose out.

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That won't happen because everyone is paying money to play the game and SE doesn't want a huge shitstorm or people quitting aka loosing money over something like that.

Honestly OP even though I kinda agree with the idea behind it (because there is nothing more frustrating of having someone who was dead the whole run get nearly everything of the loot at the end) I doubt that this can be implemented in a way to be fair. How will the system judge if you have done good or not? It would need at least three different ways (for Tanks, healers and DDs) and then what would be the right way? Increase the chance if you are just doing your job by simply tanking or healing? Or would they need to DPS too? What happens if a healer or tank let people die on purpose to let it look like they are not carrying their worth? Or just simply a bad healer that lets the others die from unavoidable damage.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well, the idea is more that people don't grind it all week, because they will eventually get their loot. It's more an idea to limit the grind.

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But if everyone is playing it multiple times to get better roll chances, then you're likely to encounter other players who have also run it multiple times and have also got the roll bonus, which results in you not actually having any advantage against them.

If you haven't run it multiple times this week already, and you're paired with people who have, which would be likely, then you'll have less chance to roll, and depending on how great a bonus it is or how much it stacks, you could be guaranteed to not be successful on your first or first few runs.
You will need to run it multiple times to 'build up' your roll bonus, before you even have a shot at winning your loot, before taking into account that you need that loot to drop in the first place.

Basically you will need to grind it out, in order to get back to square one. So this will only enforce more grinding.


The only viable solution I can see, is that if the party consists of enough people who have run it multiple times, then the raid actually drops more loot.

When the squadron will be able to do all leveling duties, the loot problem solves itself.
Surely cannot ask to have all and every duty implemented tomorrow, but starting with the ones that today are the most farmed for the loot will be a good start.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

At least, people who didn't participate at all, like being outside the boss arena the entire fight, should not be able to get loot from this boss.

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Do they get loot now?

It's bad enough that this used to happen regularly when high-level players would start a boss battle in the Praetorium while all the new people were still trying to get through the cut-scenes (and the annoyance of skipping cut-scenes) only to end up on the wrong side of that purple line.

Does the concept of "the rich get richer" mean anything to you by any chance, OP?

I would maybe be down if they somehow made it so that someone who literally doesn't even try to contribute (note that this is not necessarily the same thing as "dying repeatedly to 'easy' mechanics") can't roll for loot, but anything beyond that is probably going to step on toes.

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Do they get loot now?

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Yes, they can, although it's obviously considered bad form and I've found most people will respectfully pass on this loot (assuming they didn't just wimp out of the fight on purpose; people unintentionally missing a fight is a lot less of a problem nowadays with that warp feature they implemented not too long back)

The only time the game doesn't let you lot is if you enter the instance after the fight was won and loot is still in the pool (as in you're replacing someone that had left)

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Yes, they can, although it's obviously considered bad form...

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Yep, happened to me a couple times, enter an in progress duty to just witness the last hit and loot drop. Always passed it. And thanked everyone for the fastest roulettes I ever did.

The RNG system in this game is absolute garbage as it is, this would just add another layer of annoyance to those that are super casual players.
Some are older players or have disabilities so does that mean no loot at all for them because they may not be as proficient?
Sure it is clear some people love getting carried but this would not be the best solution.

Why do you think the RNG system is garbage? It's literally rolling random numbers 0-99. What did you expect? If you'd like, it could be more like FFXI where it was 0-999. Getting beaten by a 998 when you rolled a 996, now that was fun.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Why do you think the RNG system is garbage? It's literally rolling random numbers 0-99. What did you expect? If you'd like, it could be more like FFXI where it was 0-999. Getting beaten by a 998 when you rolled a 996, now that was fun.

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Because RNG is simply a frustrating way to extend content doesn't matter if you have to roll 999 or 99.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Because RNG is simply a frustrating way to extend content doesn't matter if you have to roll 999 or 99.

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So what? Win everything you want the first time so you're done with all content in the first day?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

So what? Win everything you want the first time so you're done with all content in the first day?

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There are enough ways to do that without RNG like tomes with weekly caps and so on. But nice try to put words into my mouth.

I stated the RNG system in this game is garbage. Other games have bad rng but the system SE decided to go with is one of the worst.

maybe you should just like.... not play the game if you don't like it so much?

Having a crappy loot system is not something that will stop me from playing, it is about the only aspect of the game i do not like. The jobs, storyline, etc.. i like and have been playing for a little over 5 years

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

maybe you should just like.... not play the game if you don't like it so much?

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Yeah why criticize something that you don't like? Everything SE implements into the game is perfect, no need for changes on anything. ;)

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

Any ideas on how we can make rolling on loot somewhat performance-based? I'm mainly talking about the non-savage duty funder type stuff like dungeons, normal raids, trials, etc. It would be nice to reward people who perform with a +20 to whatever they would've rolled so that there's an incentive to do your best instead of letting people carry you. It's kind of annoying to see players die to easy mechanics 4 times, contribute nothing, and then win the loot with a 95 roll while the people who actually did the work lose out.

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It would never work and would be impossible to implement.

Can you imagine if only 2 players stacked for a shared damage mechanic and both died as a result. That death would then impact there performance especially if for some reason they weren't raised super fast.. and have a massive chunk of downtime as a result. Blocking them out of loot rolls while everyone else who failed to do that mechanic gets to roll on loot at the end...

Its be a nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

But if everyone is playing it multiple times to get better roll chances, then you're likely to encounter other players who have also run it multiple times and have also got the roll bonus, which results in you not actually having any advantage against them.

If you haven't run it multiple times this week already, and you're paired with people who have, which would be likely, then you'll have less chance to roll, and depending on how great a bonus it is or how much it stacks, you could be guaranteed to not be successful on your first or first few runs.
You will need to run it multiple times to 'build up' your roll bonus, before you even have a shot at winning your loot, before taking into account that you need that loot to drop in the first place.

Basically you will need to grind it out, in order to get back to square one. So this will only enforce more grinding.

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I do suppose it would very much leave people who don't start doing the raids on tuesday at a disadvantage, it is pretty much impossible to create a perfect system for the loot, the RNG will leave people running the raids way more than they should but other non-RNG systems either wouldn't work with the duty finder or could backfire.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The only viable solution I can see, is that if the party consists of enough people who have run it multiple times, then the raid actually drops more loot.

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More loot would also very much help with getting weekly runs on the raids, at least the 8 man ones.

mostly the system is the way it is because it's not going anywhere and most stuff can be run ad nauseum. it's all a matter of your own personal patience.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The only viable solution I can see, is that if the party consists of enough people who have run it multiple times, then the raid actually drops more loot.

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This. More or less. At minimum, it will take half as many runs as there are players -- total playerbase, not just one party -- who wish to get an item, not counting remainders unable to form a party. At most, it will take the same number of runs as there are players -- again, total playerbase.

You increase the loot, you decrease the required ratio of runs.

Now, you can do this in a couple ways. It can be a literal increase (chance at a bonus chest), or you can include some sort of token currency per run such that one is able to generate further loot (i.e. cash the tokens for a reward of their choosing).

Something occured to me while running Alliance raids today.
Have the Alliance that deals the most cumulative damage rewarded with an additional treasure coffer, or they get an upgraded coffer with three peices of loot instead of two.

The DPS of a party is reliant on everyone doing well, you cant screw other people over, lack of healing, poor emnity control, or deaths, will reduce overall damage output, so everyone just has to play their jobs to their best.
It'd be a flat out three-way competition, a team endurance race of sorts.

There's still an element of luck, you can be paired up with poor performers, but it would give more incentive for everyone to try their best, without being so important that it leads to toxicity against poor performers, its only one or two extra peices of loot after all.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Something occured to me while running Alliance raids today.
Have the Alliance that deals the most cumulative damage rewarded with an additional treasure coffer, or they get an upgraded coffer with three peices of loot instead of two.

The DPS of a party is reliant on everyone doing well, you cant screw other people over, lack of healing, poor emnity control, or deaths, will reduce overall damage output, so everyone just has to play their jobs to their best.
It'd be a flat out three-way competition, a team endurance race of sorts.

There's still an element of luck, you can be paired up with poor performers, but it would give more incentive for everyone to try their best, without being so important that it leads to toxicity against poor performers, its only one or two extra peices of loot after all.

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Like a lot of the ideas posted upthread, the intent is good but I fear that the reality would result in "That dps on our team who barely meets the ilvl requirement and is running this raid for gear upgrades is holding us back, let's kick him and roll the dice on getting a geared replacement."

Loot rolling is fine as is so long as they don't try what they did with Ridorana Lighthouse by making loot rolls greed only. This was quickly fixed (and the backlash was severe) so I'm assuming it's probably not something they'll risk again. It has worked fine since 2.0 launch. No sense in changing it or even making your suggestion an option. Something tells me a lost loot roll brought this on. We've all had that happen. It sucks, but that's just the way it goes. Random will be random.

https://media.giphy.com/media/G5X63GrrLjjVK/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Something occured to me while running Alliance raids today.
Have the Alliance that deals the most cumulative damage rewarded with an additional treasure coffer, or they get an upgraded coffer with three peices of loot instead of two.

The DPS of a party is reliant on everyone doing well, you cant screw other people over, lack of healing, poor emnity control, or deaths, will reduce overall damage output, so everyone just has to play their jobs to their best.
It'd be a flat out three-way competition, a team endurance race of sorts.

There's still an element of luck, you can be paired up with poor performers, but it would give more incentive for everyone to try their best, without being so important that it leads to toxicity against poor performers, its only one or two extra peices of loot after all.

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As a red mage main, it would only incite me to never rez players of the other alliances, even at the risk of screwing up the whole raid. Don't rage at me if i continue to dps the boss over your corpse : you want competition ? You have it XD

There is already enough dps epeen contests in savage, please dont bring me that in casual content meant to be played in cooperation with other people, and not against them.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

As a red mage main, it would only incite me to never rez players of the other alliances, even at the risk of screwing up the whole raid. Don't rage at me if i continue to dps the boss over your corpse : you want competition ? You have it XD

There is already enough dps epeen contests in savage, please dont bring me that in casual content meant to be played in cooperation with other people, and not against them.

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Sorry but i have to be the one that says it. The biggest part of the RDM's you'll get in DF won't raise anyway because they don't care or because they didn't read the tooltips.

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Originally Posted by Emstidor

Like a lot of the ideas posted upthread, the intent is good but I fear that the reality would result in "That dps on our team who barely meets the ilvl requirement and is running this raid for gear upgrades is holding us back, let's kick him and roll the dice on getting a geared replacement."

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Kicking and waiting for a replacement would hurt the party's dps more, they'd be better off sucking it up and running it again.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Sorry but i have to be the one that says it. The biggest part of the RDM's you'll get in DF won't raise anyway because they don't care or because they didn't read the tooltips.

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It's also very difficult for controller players to target other alliances anyway. We target by scrolling through the party list.
If you're in another alliance, I'll never find your corpse in the sea of flailing weapons, spells and fireworks.

I would say keep rolling numbers independent from performance. But we can reward the entire party with extra loot to roll on at the end of the fight if they clear it with no deaths.

Clear with deaths = 4 items.
Clear with no deaths = 5 items.
We can be generous and say no more than 2 deaths = 5 items.
This is in case of normal 8 man raid.

I don't think people will stress out and kick other players in order to get the 5th chest. Because in the end, they might not win any loot, it's still RNG.
The extra chest is only there encourage people to play better.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Kicking and waiting for a replacement would hurt the party's dps more, they'd be better off sucking it up and running it again.

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If you're standing around right after a wipe, your DPS is 0 then anyway. DPS before kick and replacement = 0. DPS after kick and replacement = 0

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It's also very difficult for controller players to target other alliances anyway. We target by scrolling through the party list.
If you're in another alliance, I'll never find your corpse in the sea of flailing weapons, spells and fireworks.

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It can be tricky to find someone not in your party, definitely. However, for alliances you can hold L1 and then use left and right D-pad to go through the displayed alliance list. (And the same L1 allows you to use up and down to go through the enemy list which also comes in handy sometimes.) Still somewhat finicky, but pretty doable most of the time.

Instead of loot I'd rather have good performance reward more gil, tomes and experience depending on the duty.

So like have the game grade your performance at the end of each duty as either Bronze, Silver or Gold. Bronze gives you the same rewards we have now while Silver would maybe get you like +50% of the total rewards and Gold would give +100%

Maybe exclude capped tomes from this system just for the sake of fairness, but if it's just gil, exp and outdated tomestones then it's a nice bonus and incentive to play well while also not locking anyone out of super important loot

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Sorry but i have to be the one that says it. The biggest part of the RDM's you'll get in DF won't raise anyway because they don't care or because they didn't read the tooltips.

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I don't raise people when I know it's going to be a pain for my mana. Just because we can chain raise does not mean that we should. Two raises back to back is a huge amount of mana, even with Lucid dreaming. Plus considering manashifts to Bards / healers.

Just avoid to die. :)

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Loot rolling is fine as is so long as they don't try what they did with Ridorana Lighthouse by making loot rolls greed only. This was quickly fixed (and the backlash was severe) so I'm assuming it's probably not something they'll risk again. It has worked fine since 2.0 launch. No sense in changing it or even making your suggestion an option. Something tells me a lost loot roll brought this on. We've all had that happen. It sucks, but that's just the way it goes. Random will be random.

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Well, the greed only loot for 24 wasn't THAT bad of an idea... But combined with other problems with the 24 man raid's loot, it was a terrible failure.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Sorry but i have to be the one that says it. The biggest part of the RDM's you'll get in DF won't raise anyway because they don't care or because they didn't read the tooltips.

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Even if that was true (it might just be you having no luck ending with bad/selfish rdms) that's not a reason to make that even worse by inciting people of thinking of their group dps only.

I did take that as an example, but we can imagine players with aoes markers going on purpose near other groups players, so that their heals gets busy healing them rather than doing more dps. Or for the same purpose tanks turning the boss towards other groups when a big cleave is coming. No tanks wanting to be the main defensive one because "my dps". A full roster group in 400+ stuff getting the bonus despite not needing such low level stuff, while the two others less geared groups who actually need more drops will in fact get less. Players with parsers leaving the raid when they see they will not get more drops. And so on. I am sure that there is tons of other points that will make 24 man raids way more toxic if you bring competition between players into them, instead of keeping them as as a common goal to reach together.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It's also very difficult for controller players to target other alliances anyway. We target by scrolling through the party list.
If you're in another alliance, I'll never find your corpse in the sea of flailing weapons, spells and fireworks.

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I don't play with a controller so i wouldn't know but from what SpiritMuse it is not impossible so i can't let this count as an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I don't raise people when I know it's going to be a pain for my mana. Just because we can chain raise does not mean that we should. Two raises back to back is a huge amount of mana, even with Lucid dreaming. Plus considering manashifts to Bards / healers.

Just avoid to die. :)

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Dude come on don't exaggerate. 2 raises are no issue except you died before.
But yeah its a good idea to not die and the next thing that a healer will say to everyone in the party is: "nah i won't heal you i have to do dps myself, just avoid to take damage"

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Even if that was true (it might just be you having no luck ending with bad/selfish rdms) that's not a reason to make that even worse by inciting people of thinking of their group dps only.

I did take that as an example, but we can imagine players with aoes markers going on purpose near other groups players, so that their heals gets busy healing them rather than doing more dps. Or for the same purpose tanks turning the boss towards other groups when a big cleave is coming. No tanks wanting to be the main defensive one because "my dps". A full roster group in 400+ stuff getting the bonus despite not needing such low level stuff, while the two others less geared groups who actually need more drops will in fact get less. Players with parsers leaving the raid when they see they will not get more drops. And so on. I am sure that there is tons of other points that will make 24 man raids way more toxic if you bring competition between players into them, instead of keeping them as as a common goal to reach together.

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Uhm you'll discover RDM's like this frequently in 24 and 8 man DF content, that has nothing to do with my "bad experiences" because i'm very often also on RDM and i see that people won't get a raise from any RDM when i'm not able to raise.

I know you did take this just as an example, but its not the best. Stuff that you've just described already happen, not often but there is sometimes one of these players amongst the 23 other players. I also get what you want to say and i agree that people would become more egoistic if this system would be in the game, but it will not happen because SE doesn't want to chase a large group of customers away.

People already took their pitchforks out when we could only roll greed. Now imagine what would happen if a big part of the community wouldn't even have the chance to get loot because of this system.

People with disabilities would be punished for this. Anyone who is partially blind, mentally challenged, and/or physically unable to play easily would be brutally punished.

Keep this kind of system in savage/extreme/ultimate if it is ever implemented.