[Shadowbringers] 5.0 DRK: Take five, leave five.

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Originally Posted by Beki_Bayaqad

I honestly don't understand people's dislike for tank stance or the fact the stances are a straight damage cut. I mean why the hell do you want to replace a straight damage cut for a miniscule parry boost? On top of that the tank stance boosts the tank's HP allowing them to take hits better then everyone else.

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1- Because the damage reduction (or HP boost) is easily made up for by our CDs that also happen to be as strong or stronger than the tank stance, making the "damage cut" in the damage we deal not worth it.

2- Enmity is a non-issue once you establish a lead. You only need "1" more enmity for the boss to attack you instead of the guy that's less than you by 1. Once you establish a lead so their next few actions do not beat you by 1, additional enmity is redundant. We already have a billion tools to ensure that tank is always ahead.

3- Tank stances already have a penalty of: "Not being in DPS stance" which denies tanks good offensive tools (Fell Cleave, Added hit on auto-attack, Bloodweapon), why is it compounded by an enforced additional -20% and barely ever added "good defensive tools"? Heck, PLD generates Oath Gauge in Sword Oath ~40s faster than in Shield Oath lol. How is this not hilarious?

4- Tank stances add nothing to gameplay to when it comes to decision making (to make them interesting). As mentioned in points 1 and 3, it is never worth going into tank stance for a net-gain of any sort (due to CDs doing better at no penalties) nor do we have enough locked behind stances to influence said decisions (unlike BRD that has very neat tools behind their song-stances).

5- This one is the most important one in my opinion... Stances are in place to PUNISH >ME< for doing "MY JOB" of holding hate and reducing damage taken when I can achieve the same result without them. No other role is punished for neither doing their own job or helping the other roles. SE already went through the trouble to ensure healers do not suffer from a "DPS stance" and BRD/MCH don't lose 10~20% DPS for using MP/TP regen abilities by giving them oGCD refresh and tactician instead.

So yes, people will dislike stances as long as they stay the way they are. Read: "BADLY DESIGNED".

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On topic... I saw somewhere a leak of some of the removed abilities. Dark knights are losing Dark Arts. I hope this change doesn't make DRK just another "PLD"... But I understand the decision as it is a source of design problems. Wild Fire is also going bye bye for the same reasons I believe.

I hope the list isn't exhaustive, because I didn't see Flash nor Unleash on it (but I saw heavy thrust and Thrill of Battle on it). If they stay in the game, they NEED to be changed because as they are they are just terrible moves.

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Originally Posted by Beki_Bayaqad

I honestly don't understand people's dislike for tank stance or the fact the stances are a straight damage cut. I mean why the hell do you want to replace a straight damage cut for a miniscule parry boost? On top of that the tank stance boosts the tank's HP allowing them to take hits better then everyone else.

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Because people have crunched the numbers, and the safety isn't worth the loss in damage. Savage raid DPS checks are TIGHT, and there's a lot of damage potential to a tank that does everything in DPS stance.

I don't like it either, but I see why it's a thing.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

On topic... I saw somewhere a leak of some of the removed abilities. Dark knights are losing Dark Arts. I hope this change doesn't make DRK just another "PLD"... But I understand the decision as it is a source of design problems. Wild Fire is also going bye bye for the same reasons I believe.

I hope the list isn't exhaustive, because I didn't see Flash nor Unleash on it (but I saw heavy thrust and Thrill of Battle on it). If they stay in the game, they NEED to be changed because as they are they are just terrible moves.

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Any source on this?

Yeah, I was gonna ask the same. At least post or shoot it through a PM, please! :(

Could obviously be fake but I still have fun reading that kind of thing nonetheless. No idea why.

Sometimes i wish we couldn't turn off tank stance.. I see these other tanks not being off tanks, running content out of stance putting pressure on their healers and its just hurts.. Anytime i know im going to be a targets focus ill make sure my stance is on.

A great example of this is TG Cid from Orbone.. He's hitting all 3 tanks(should be) at the same time.. If your tank isn't keep highest aggro hes not hold its auto attacks.


The way its suppose to work is, your tank is suppose to weave in and out of tank stance to deal damage. The auto attacks hit hard sometimes but generally can be handled.. When a mechanic shows up you need to have tank stance already turned on.. If your a good tank you should know the fights and be ready for each mechanic ... If your a new tank you need to stay in tank stance until you know the fight, and till you know when you can drop into dps mode.

Learn this stuff and you can weave in an out of the stance, and your healers won't have healer rage because you are 20 tank busters out of tank stance and wasted all their mp by doubling the amount they have to heal.

Sadly the person who gave me the leak cropped a photo from the post without providing the link. I think the source is being careful because he was called out by MrHappy so he's hiding his profiles. I will continue to try and get to the source. For the same reasons of speculating what will happen.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

Sometimes i wish we couldn't turn off tank stance.. I see these other tanks not being off tanks, running content out of stance putting pressure on their healers and its just hurts.. Anytime i know im going to be a targets focus ill make sure my stance is on.

A great example of this is TG Cid from Orbone.. He's hitting all 3 tanks(should be) at the same time.. If your tank isn't keep highest aggro hes not hold its auto attacks.


The way its suppose to work is, your tank is suppose to weave in and out of tank stance to deal damage. The auto attacks hit hard sometimes but generally can be handled.. When a mechanic shows up you need to have tank stance already turned on.. If your a good tank you should know the fights and be ready for each mechanic ... If your a new tank you need to stay in tank stance until you know the fight, and till you know when you can drop into dps mode.

Learn this stuff and you can weave in an out of the stance, and your healers won't have healer rage because you are 20 tank busters out of tank stance and wasted all their mp by doubling the amount they have to heal.

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As I said in my post, if you use your CDs, you will take less damage than a tank in tank stance that is not using theirs because the CDs are stronger than the stance. Tanks already take half the damage the DPS with the highest defense type does. Meaning, you take half the damage a DRG does for physical, and half the magical damage a BLM does for magical.

If you want to argue mitigation on top of mitigation is good, not necessarily, because buffs stack multiplicatively, effects reduce the efficiency of the next effect by the same percent. i.e. Shield Oath will reduce Sentinel by 20% making it a 36% effect instead of 40%. Yes, the total is 56% which is more than 40%, that won't matter because 9/10 times you will NOT save the healer GCD once you're already reducing damage by 40% because once they cast Cure 2 or save a Tetra/Bene/Excog/ED you should be full or near full health.

And again, if you know how to play your tank, no ONE should be able to take aggro off you once you have the lead. We already have a billion ways of getting enmity, a 3 times multiplier is already ridiculous. Using your example in TG Cid, I usually I am 4th or 5th top DPS on my tank, so the only risk of me losing aggro is to on of the 3 or 4 people that are above me, but those are 2 types:

1- These guys are barely beating me by 200~1,000 DPS and as such won't steal from me because of enmity multipliers and tanks not having Diversion.
2- These guys are DESTROYING my DPS by doing 2k or more than me and those happen to also know where their enmity reducing ability button is.

Now learning the fight is a different thing. Tank stances are WELL known for being useful there. But even then, part of the progression is to learn how to reduce the time you stay in tank stance. And if you're competent enough but not progressing on first week some how, just looking up a guide will let you know where you can completely drop tank stances.

When it comes to healers, healer throughput is too strong when it comes to burst healing. So let's be fair, unless you go around collecting vulnerability stacks so every auto is a tank buster and then stand in every AoE, healers shouldn't have problems healing you in Orbonne. Your tank stance has nothing to do with it.

Also what matter is NOT the amount healed, it's the number of GCDs or resources spent on healing. If they know how to put regen on their tanks, then the tanks are set between tank busters thanks to regen ticks and AoE heals and only directly heal you before and after the tank busters.

this is the list of the leak the skills that they will remove, but don't take it seriously until the pax.

https://i.imgur.com/Dv6AsSf.png

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Originally Posted by shao32

this is the list of the leak the skills that they will remove, but don't take it seriously until the pax.

https://i.imgur.com/Dv6AsSf.png

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I feel as if this was made with "the skill will be gone" regardless of if the function is used somewhere else- or if the move just changes as we know it.
As in
yeah dark arts as we know it now may be gone, but is it still there as a skill with a different effect? Or is the effect given somewhere else?
Without knowing anything about what they mean by 'gone' I just kinda chalk this up to a fat shrug.

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Originally Posted by Flatopia

I feel as if this was made with "the skill will be gone" regardless of if the function is used somewhere else- or if the move just changes as we know it.
As in
yeah dark arts as we know it now may be gone, but is it still there as a skill with a different effect? Or is the effect given somewhere else?
Without knowing anything about what they mean by 'gone' I just kinda chalk this up to a fat shrug.

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The leak only says "Spells being removed". So yes, considering how important some of them are, they are definitely being replaced by something else either by adding new abilities or changing other abilities to end up with the same functions. Regardless, I'm glad seeing some of those go away tbh. Specially on the DPS jobs side.

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Originally Posted by Flatopia

I feel as if this was made with "the skill will be gone" regardless of if the function is used somewhere else- or if the move just changes as we know it.
As in
yeah dark arts as we know it now may be gone, but is it still there as a skill with a different effect? Or is the effect given somewhere else?
Without knowing anything about what they mean by 'gone' I just kinda chalk this up to a fat shrug.

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prbably, dark arts its the back bone of DRK right now, removing it will mean they will give us something similar or better in the new levels, who knows but if they remove it complety puff, i mean i hope they don't kill DRK niche of being heavy resourced based and fast paced complex tank in the process.

other thing i catch my eye is losing diversion, this can means a few things like they reworking tak stances to make it 100% mandatory in the MT spot or they give us a enmity buff skill to the tanks, in any case meaby they will bring the full control of party enmity to tanks again? it will be nice.

You could make DRK work without Dark Arts. If Darkside consumed MP on every weaponskill/ability while boosting its damage output, it would functionally be an offensive cooldown that persisted until you ran out of MP.

Alternatively, you would need more abilities that cost MP to use (Dark Passenger and so on).

Removed actions generally have a red 'X' through them, though.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You could make DRK work without Dark Arts. If Darkside consumed MP on every weaponskill/ability while boosting its damage output, it would functionally be an offensive cooldown that persisted until you ran out of MP.

Alternatively, you would need more abilities that cost MP to use (Dark Passenger and so on).

Removed actions generally have a red 'X' through them, though.

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I suggested they do something like this, but have it fueled by Black Blood, like 5 or 10 blood every action, rather than MP. You'd have to change Delirium, Quietus, Bloodspiller and The Blackest Night to compensate the changes.
I say make Delirium restore 50 Blood, instead of cost any. Make Quietus a potent oGCD on a moderate and have Blood Price reduce the cooldown every time you're hit.
Make Bloodspiller a combo action off of Syphon Strike, probably adjusting the damage so it's not super overpowered. And TBN could probably just have the amount of blood generated reduced to 25 or something.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

5- This one is the most important one in my opinion... Stances are in place to PUNISH >ME< for doing "MY JOB" of holding hate and reducing damage taken when I can achieve the same result without them. No other role is punished for neither doing their own job or helping the other roles. SE already went through the trouble to ensure healers do not suffer from a "DPS stance" and BRD/MCH don't lose 10~20% DPS for using MP/TP regen abilities by giving them oGCD refresh and tactician instead.

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This is the biggest thing.

It feels goddamn awful to use tank stance. In the case of DRK and WAR? You lose your most enjoyable to use skills, even ignoring the damage loss aspect. And what do you get in return? Nothing really. And people wonder why tanks hate using tank stance?

I actually kinda wish they would revert it back to the way it was in 3.0. Where you could actually run out of mp and be dropped out of Darkside. That was one of the more interesting aspects of playing DRK, since you actually had to pay attention to manage your mp intelligently.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You could make DRK work without Dark Arts. If Darkside consumed MP on every weaponskill/ability while boosting its damage output, it would functionally be an offensive cooldown that persisted until you ran out of MP.

Alternatively, you would need more abilities that cost MP to use (Dark Passenger and so on).

Removed actions generally have a red 'X' through them, though.

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So basically HW Darkside, where you had a constant MP degen effect while Darkside was up, and you had to find that sweet spot between doing great damage and mitigation with your constantly lowering MP pool. Back when DA worked with...2 attacks and 3 cooldowns?

More like MCH Heat Gauge maybe? gauge UI widgets are a wildcard where they've got a lot of room for choice. Too many SB gauges are just reskinned single buff/timers whose existances are questionable.

But sure first thing I thought when I saw Wildfire and Dark Arts on that list was merging them with gauges in some way (wildfire merging with overheat for example)