Would you be ok with no new tank or healer in 5.0?

If they need to do things for "balance", then we do need more tanks and healers for a different kind of balance: the total number of classes available.

Currently we have (at best) three tanks, three healers and eight DPS classes - or two healers and nine DPS if people want to level summoner rather than scholar.

The average dungeon queue is made up of people leveling their various classes.

Dungeons need a ratio of 1:1:2 for the classes, and yet the actual ratio of classes is not in line with that. (Even before factoring in that tanks level faster than DPS classes due to near-constant EXP bonuses for being in need.)

So....

Ideal ratio: (and number variants)
1:1:2
3:3:6
4:4:8
Let's say that the number of DPS should be equal to the number of tanks + healers.

What we have:
3:3:8 --- (33% over ideal number of DPS)
3:2:9 --- (80% over ideal number)


With one extra of each role added:
4:4:9 (12.5% over ideal)
4:3:10 (43% over ideal)

So if I've done my maths right (I am very tired though) that seems like it should make quite a difference to the ratio of how many DPS to other classes there are.

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Originally Posted by SoleilAlphi

no I won't be ok. Counting the choices we have for playing tank/heal/dps, tanks and healers don't have the variety that dps have to switch jobs within the role. I like to play healer as secondary role, and I'm stuck with just three choices when I have nine for my primary role, dps. It makes things stale, and as for balance... as someone said above, if they didn't manage to balance jobs in 2 years, they won't this time.

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Broadly yes. But in more detailed terms.

If you wanna be a tank you have 3 choices
If you wanna be a healer you have 3 choices. If you wanna be a caster you have 3 choices. Off you wanna be a melee you have 4 choices. Ranged. You have 2.

Doesn't really matter what you want to be there isn't much choice..

The problem they have is that basically every job within a set is pretty much the exact same thing. How can you make a new healer feel different. If it doesn't do the same stuff the current 3 healers can do it's either going to be gimped or OP as hell depending on what it does instead.

Same goes with tanks and well everything really... they're to obsessed with balance to allow diversity and that's why everything is the same

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Originally Posted by Iscah

If they need to do things for "balance", then we do need more tanks and healers for a different kind of balance: the total number of classes available.

Currently we have (at best) three tanks, three healers and eight DPS classes - or two healers and nine DPS if people want to level summoner rather than scholar.

The average dungeon queue is made up of people leveling their various classes.

Dungeons need a ratio of 1:1:2 for the classes, and yet the actual ratio of classes is not in line with that. (Even before factoring in that tanks level faster than DPS classes due to near-constant EXP bonuses for being in need.)

So....

Ideal ratio: (and number variants)
1:1:2
3:3:6
4:4:8
Let's say that the number of DPS should be equal to the number of tanks + healers.

What we have:
3:3:8 --- (33% over ideal number of DPS)
3:2:9 --- (80% over ideal number)


With one extra of each role added:
4:4:9 (12.5% over ideal)
4:3:10 (43% over ideal)

So if I've done my maths right (I am very tired though) that seems like it should make quite a difference to the ratio of how many DPS to other classes there are.

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Also this has been proven to be wrong. ARR had 2 tanks for example. and comprised something like 16% of the player pool.
HW added dark night and tanks still only made up something like 16% of the player pool.

adding dark didnt magically mean more people playing tanks. it just meant the number of people playing tanks was split across 3 jobs and not 2. but the number of tanks in circulation remained largely the same..

yoshi published some numbers on this in one of the live letters when he was explaining why they werent adding a tank in 4.0.

they could add 10 shiny new tanks in 5.0 but the number of people playing tanks would still be exactly the same

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Originally Posted by Iscah

If they need to do things for "balance", then we do need more tanks and healers for a different kind of balance: the total number of classes available.

Currently we have (at best) three tanks, three healers and eight DPS classes - or two healers and nine DPS if people want to level summoner rather than scholar.

The average dungeon queue is made up of people leveling their various classes.

Dungeons need a ratio of 1:1:2 for the classes, and yet the actual ratio of classes is not in line with that. (Even before factoring in that tanks level faster than DPS classes due to near-constant EXP bonuses for being in need.)

So....

Ideal ratio: (and number variants)
1:1:2
3:3:6
4:4:8
Let's say that the number of DPS should be equal to the number of tanks + healers.

What we have:
3:3:8 --- (33% over ideal number of DPS)
3:2:9 --- (80% over ideal number)


With one extra of each role added:
4:4:9 (12.5% over ideal)
4:3:10 (43% over ideal)

So if I've done my maths right (I am very tired though) that seems like it should make quite a difference to the ratio of how many DPS to other classes there are.

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Ratios don't matter if no one plays the jobs.

As a healer main who is getting bored of the current healers, I would not be very happy. I would probably just find a DPS to main for the next expansion to spice things up or not play as much. The game is getting stale to me so I need something new to play with.

I would like to see no new dps in 5.0 and only a new tank and healer.

They'd bankrupt Ala Mhigo's salt industry if they didn't add any new tanks or healers.

I’d be a bit disappointed if there weren’t. Not the end of the world, but definitely would be a disappointment.

I would be happy with just DPS as I don't play Healer or Tank...but i feel they will add one or both. I wish this game had room for a nice support job a real support like in FFXI.

I really want to see the dancer class as a melee healer or Blue Mage as a rng Tank. ; . ; But everyone is leaning on Geomancer as a healer since its mentioned in Storyline constantly. So I know its eventually going to show up. So I really doubt healers are going to get shafted. If they do bring another DPS that's incredibly fine. But if they do they should consider loot factoring and perhaps add another dps to the group role fulfillment. 1 tank, a healer and 2 dps aren't going to cut it if they are going to keep adding more and more dps. But that's just me.

I'm still betting on BLU dps, DNC healer, and GUN tank, but I suppose we'll see ^^. I don't think we'll actually see Geomancer in game, but they've thrown us off before.

Oh wow, got my post deleted and banned for some reason, maybe it was because of the throwaway f-word that wasn't directed at anyone and someone was apparently salty enough to report me for it.

Don't cuss. Can get you into serious trouble with the mods.

When DRK was introduced in 3.0 the tank population did rise. However it didnt jump as much as the dev team expected. The jump was roughly 2% increase which was way below their target goal. However I think any increase is good one.

Although I do hope they dont base it off of pure numbers where SB sold more copies than HW due to them advertising 2 dps jobs rather than a tank and healer job.

I'll speak from a healer perspective as I have limited knowledge about tanks.

I would be very disappointed if they don't release a new healer. Balance issues aside, I am hoping the release of a new healer would put the healer issues right in the spot light and force the developers to address the current inadequacies of healer identity and balance.

If they didn't release a new healer, that means they're too afraid to step outside their comfort zone regarding healers and given their track record for healer kits, put an even higher negative stigma towards the healer developers.

No.

Theres no reason not to add new tanks and healers if they're adding new classes.

Tank and healer balance is still eh, and they added two new dps despite dps balance being pretty eh as well.

They either need to figure out what ratio of tanks to healers to dps they want (it's either 1:1:2 for most content or 1:2:5 for larger scale content) and get to that number and balance it correctly from there, or go the ff11 route and add more classes to say they added more classes and some of them are just going to be horrible in relevant content.

I would be very surprised if they do not introduce a healer and tank in 5.0.

My guess --> Blue Mage Tank
Dancer Healer

Honestly why do we need balance with Tanks? I don't play healing jobs, but i know how often i have seen "Adventurer in need" being Tank. If you want to make the role more attractive, then the fun factor must be raised. Sometime balance isn't what is needed.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I would be very disappointed if they don't release a new healer. Balance issues aside, I am hoping the release of a new healer would put the healer issues right in the spot light and force the developers to address the current inadequacies of healer identity and balance.

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This is something to consider. A new healer would mean that they have to work harder to differentiate the healers and make them unique. Right now, every healer can do pretty much everything without any drawbacks (with the exception of WHM and aoe mitigation). Perhaps a new healer will help them realize that the current ones are just too solid for their own good.

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Originally Posted by Annah

I would be very surprised if they do not introduce a healer and tank in 5.0.

My guess --> Blue Mage Tank
Dancer Healer

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Tank will probably be gunblade.

They need some job to build the hype like DRK did.

I am borderline on this topic as yes I would like to see a new healer and tank. But at the same time they need to get the current tanks and healers balanced out. So I would prefer they skip adding new tanks or healers especially since it will do nothing but cause more complaints about balance.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

But at the same time they need to get the current tanks and healers balanced out.

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They had an entire expansion to do that. So I'd like my options increased instead of being on the short end of the stick for a second expansion in a row.

*bangs pots and pans together loudly*

Let us have Dancer!!

But in all honesty, if we don't get a new healer and/or tank in 5.0, I'd be surprised. Disappointed as well, but mostly surprised.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

They had an entire expansion to do that. So I'd like my options increased instead of being on the short end of the stick for a second expansion in a row.

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Willing to give SE two expansions of no complaining about Balance in return for those classes?

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Willing to give SE two expansions of no complaining about Balance in return for those classes?

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No, not really. If they actually stuck to keeping their promises that'd be one thing.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Willing to give SE two expansions of no complaining about Balance in return for those classes?

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Easily, won't be hard to complain if people are going to unsub. I'll be honest, if they don't release a new healer and tank next expansion, I'll just drop my sub in a heartbeat and never come back.

It's easy to say that we should wait, but you also have to keep in mind that those tanks and healers mains will feel extremely left out if they don't get something new for two expansions in a row. How do you keep players? Give them new things, give them something new to toy around with.

What else did you want to add? Two more DPS jobs, again?
But what would happen then? I bet a lot of Healer and Tank mains will shift to DPS if they were left out again and the queue times would be even worse.

Balanced or not, they had Stormblood to figure something out, that's one of the reasons we didn't get a new tank or healer, they can't use the same excuse again because that means that they did jack to balance it in Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

No, not really. If they actually stuck to keeping their promises that'd be one thing.

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No such thing as promises in game development. Developers only talk about what they want and would like to do with a game as promises are like advertisements it backs them into a corner.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

No such thing as promises in game development. Developers only talk about what they want and would like to do with a game as promises are like advertisements it backs them into a corner.

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Then they'll learn the hard way as noted by the post above yours. FFXIV isn't the only game a lot of us can play and most don't require a monthly sub.

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Originally Posted by Kinazu

Easily, won't be hard to complain if people are going to unsub. I'll be honest, if they don't release a new healer and tank next expansion, I'll just drop my sub in a heartbeat and never come back.

It's easy to say that we should wait, but you also have to keep in mind that those tanks and healers mains will feel extremely left out if they don't get something new for two expansions in a row. How do you keep players? Give them new things, give them something new to toy around with.

What else did you want to add? Two more DPS jobs, again?
But what would happen then? I bet a lot of Healer and Tank mains will shift to DPS if they were left out again and the queue times would be even worse.

Balanced or not, they had Stormblood to figure something out, that's one of the reasons we didn't get a new tank or healer, they can't use the same excuse again because that means that they did jack to balance it in Stormblood.

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If they add new classes then the communtiy better grow a pair and accept blame if it throws things further out of balance. Blame SE for the current classes not being balance but dont blame them if new classes added at your request make it worse..

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Then they'll learn the hard way as noted by the post above yours. FFXIV isn't the only game a lot of us can play and most don't require a monthly sub.

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No developer makes promises sub or no sub..

Absolutely not. Seeing as there should be as many tanks as healers and tanks+healers should be as close to the number of DPS as possible, we absolutely need more tanks and healers.

Also, argument that "it's for the balance" is just plain stupid. What's the point of balancing the classes at lvl70 if they will no longer be balanced at lvl80?! To balance the classes they'd need to not bring any LEVELS, not jobs. It's impossible to properly balance the classes at the new level cap without the game going live for several months. And just about the entire two years with the way they decide to release content that is actually needed to gather data on the jobs balance. So there's NEVER going to be a time to add new healers/tanks...

And as was said before, DPS are more broken than tanks/healers. If any group shouldn't get a new representative for balance, it's the DPS.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Broadly yes. But in more detailed terms.

If you wanna be a tank you have 3 choices
If you wanna be a healer you have 3 choices. If you wanna be a caster you have 3 choices. Off you wanna be a melee you have 4 choices. Ranged. You have 2.

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That's convenient omission...

If you wanna be a DPS you have 9 choices.
Out of that, if you want casters you have 3.
If you want ranged you have 2.
If you want melee you have 4.

If you wanna be a tank you have 3 choices.
If you wanna be a caster you have 0.
If you wanna be a ranged you have 0.
If you wanna be a melee you have 3.

If you wanna be a healer you have 3 choices.
If you wanna be a caster you have 3.
If you wanna be a ranged you have 0.
If you wanna be a melee you have 0.

Don't compare sub-categories to categories. It's a tree. The tree is divided into three which are then further divided...but only DPS have any variety altogether.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

They need some job to build the hype like DRK did.

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Blue Mage would be more "hype" than Gunblade. Along with healer it's the most asked for class. It would also be the first "mage" tank, and it'd allow "<Color> Mage" to fill every spot in a party.

Gunblade on the other hand is not really a class that existed ever before. Heck, a Blue Mage COULD be a gunblade job, seeing as that class have changed their weapon numerous times, from sabers, through whips all the way to forks...

I'd be fine with no new jobs at all.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

This is something to consider. A new healer would mean that they have to work harder to differentiate the healers and make them unique. Right now, every healer can do pretty much everything without any drawbacks (with the exception of WHM and aoe mitigation). Perhaps a new healer will help them realize that the current ones are just too solid for their own good.

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I mentioned this in one of the many myriad of healer threads but what I'm hoping for, if S-E remains dead set on this "main healer" and "mitigation healer", I am hoping that the injection of a fourth healer would mean we have two clearly defined "man healers" and two "mitigation healers" so healers are balanced between two instead of three. Bonus points to S-E if they can make a particular pair of main healer and mitigation healer compliments each other well, and the remaining pair also compliments each other well so there are some natural synergies to work with.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

If they add new classes then the communtiy better grow a pair and accept blame if it throws things further out of balance. Blame SE for the current classes not being balance but dont blame them if new classes added at your request make it worse..

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1. SE are staffed by big boys and girls who should know how to accomplish what they get paid to do- we can absolutely blame them if healers are still imbalanced on the cusp of a new expansion.
2. We have every right to call foul if they decide to not add healer/tank jobs due to the same imbalances that they claimed mea culpa for before SB launched over two years ago.
3. We all know by now that SE does not take fan requests seriously unless the staff feels they can manage it, so if they take on the task of adding new class options and can't balance around them, then they probably should find new day jobs.
4. Why in the world are players not allowed to complain if SE mucks it all up and lets us down? They're a major game company with the resources to float the #2 MMO in the world- I have no pity if they can't even match f2p titles when they charge a sub + buying the game at a minimum.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

1. SE are staffed by big boys and girls who should know how to accomplish what they get paid to do- we can absolutely blame them if healers are still imbalanced on the cusp of a new expansion.
2. We have every right to call foul if they decide to not add healer/tank jobs due to the same imbalances that they claimed mea culpa for before SB launched over two years ago.
3. We all know by now that SE does not take fan requests seriously unless the staff feels they can manage it, so if they take on the task of adding new class options and can't balance around them, then they probably should find new day jobs.
4. Why in the world are players not allowed to complain if SE mucks it all up and lets us down? They're a major game company with the resources to float the #2 MMO in the world- I have no pity if they can't even match f2p titles when they charge a sub + buying the game at a minimum.

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Community is also big boys and girls who know balance is off and is asking for something they know may throw it off further. Balance is a open wound and your asking them to dump lemon juice: new classes on it knowing it may hurt. When it does hurt you turn around and scream at them for dumping juice on the wound when you asked them too. They can't seem to solve the balance issue but its ok lets make it worse and add new classes..

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Community is also big boys and girls who know balance is off and is asking for something they know may throw it off further. Balance is a open wound and your asking them to dump lemon juice: new classes on it knowing it may hurt. When it does hurt you turn around and scream at them for dumping juice on the wound when you asked them too. They can't seem to solve the balance issue but its ok lets make it worse and add new classes..

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Gee it sure would be great if they worked on an expansion that didn't include any tanks or healers for the sake of balancing the ones we do have. Oh...

Look how well that turned out? Do we go 2 expansions of no new healers and tanks? 3? 4? When do we expect this "balance" you speak of? To be fair the balancing is better than it was but DRK and WHM still need a looking at but it isn't as doom and gloom as you speak of. They just need to dig themselves out of this hole they've dug when it comes to mitigation and raw healing which again is something they've had years to solve.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Also [balancing the ratio of jobs] has been proven to be wrong. ARR had 2 tanks for example. and comprised something like 16% of the player pool.
HW added dark night and tanks still only made up something like 16% of the player pool.

adding dark didnt magically mean more people playing tanks. it just meant the number of people playing tanks was split across 3 jobs and not 2. but the number of tanks in circulation remained largely the same..

yoshi published some numbers on this in one of the live letters when he was explaining why they werent adding a tank in 4.0.

they could add 10 shiny new tanks in 5.0 but the number of people playing tanks would still be exactly the same

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What is the 16% stat based on though? People playing tank in any instance in the game? Leveling? Endgame? People who would say on a poll that they choose to play tank?

I'm thinking in terms of people leveling all their classes over time. I don't consider myself a tank player, but I've leveled all my classes. I've had to run enough roulettes to level my tank classes - and my healers, and a lot to level my DPS. Because there are more of them and they get less EXP per roulette without the 'in need' bonus.

I don't know what proportion of players do level everything versus sticking with one or two classes, but for every person that does it, the ratio of time spent playing the different classes is inherently skewed to needing more time spent as a DPS.

When I get my tanks to max level, I stop playing them. Give me an additional tank class and I will spend more time playing tank.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Gee it sure would be great if they worked on an expansion that didn't include any tanks or healers for the sake of balancing the ones we do have. Oh...

Look how well that turned out? Do we go 2 expansions of no new healers and tanks? 3? 4? When do we expect this "balance" you speak of? To be fair the balancing is better than it was but DRK and WHM still need a looking at but it isn't as doom and gloom as you speak of. They just need to dig themselves out of this hole they've dug when it comes to mitigation and raw healing which again is something they've had years to solve.

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How can they dig themselves out when people are asking for them to dig deeper? Or do you consider them adding new classes digging themselves out? Never spoke of doom and gloom either just pointing out the hypocritical nature present in the thread. Can spin it however you want, there is no escaping that you are asking them to increase balancing difficulty by adding more classes.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

How can they dig themselves out when people are asking for them to dig deeper? Or do you consider them adding new classes digging themselves out? Never spoke of doom and gloom either just pointing out the hypocritical nature present in the thread. Can spin it however you want, there is no escaping that you are asking them to increase balancing difficulty by adding more classes.

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To which I say: if they can't balance the jobs, they don't deserve thier jobs. Also you are making a very wrong-headed assumption in that SE dev team will bend over backwards to accommodate player demand to the detriment of the game as a whole. This is definitely not the case or else we would have houses for everyone, super customizable character appearances, unlimited inventory, a much more robust glamour system, etc. ...

SE will introduce what they feel the game needs and they are capable of balancing. They certainly don't need you to pre-emptively defend them from hypothetical backlash because some players want nice things despite some imbalance in the game's current state. There will always be cries of IMBA and BETTER BUFF WAR/SCH, those types of complaints won't stop any competent developer from adding more variety.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

How can they dig themselves out when people are asking for them to dig deeper? Or do you consider them adding new classes digging themselves out? Never spoke of doom and gloom either just pointing out the hypocritical nature present in the thread. Can spin it however you want, there is no escaping that you are asking them to increase balancing difficulty by adding more classes.

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You can spin it however you want too. See? I can say that too! They've had YEARS to fix this nonsense for the classes that currently exist. One could say there's been balance problems since as far back as 2.0. They still added ninja, dark knight, machinist, astrologian, samurai and red mage.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Blue Mage would be more "hype" than Gunblade.

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Not really when Squall and Lightning exist