Is it weird that I like Zenos as a villain?

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Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1

Well when you're in a new body why not find the weapon that's been bathed in your power than just picking any random sword so at that time he didn't have much of a choice.

And even without the sword thing the game made it so obvious it's Zenos possessing his body,from the obvious background music to the mention of "The Hunt".....something only Zenos cared about and rarely any of his followers(even his devout nutjob worshipper Asahi) talk about.

As for the "No".....did you buy scenario skips to get to Stormblood?Cuz Elidibus isn't a new character at all.

He's been there since the days of A Realm Reborn where he met Minfillia and the Warrior of Light for the first time,played a big role in Heavensward where he brought in the Warriors of Darkness and cooperated with Urianger,and recently in Stormblood is assisting Emperor Varis using Zenos's body to establish Varis's authority over Garlemald to undermine the influence of the Populares,a group of Garleans that opposes the way the royal family's been running the empire with.

If anything he's the most active ascian out of the entire group beside Lahabrea who got offed by Thordan in Heavensward

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No, I didn't scenario skip. Nor did I say Elidibus was a new character. Nothing I have said implied that. Last I remember, White Robe was chatting on the moon with a useless character.

The Warrior of Darkness was hardly a 'useless' character. He might have only been around for a short while but the part he played revealed some pretty major lore elements. His English voice actor was also very talented.

Zenos is why everybody should be playing with Japanese voices. Whoever was in charge of the English VA work did a horrible job.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Warrior of Darkness was hardly a 'useless' character. He might have only been around for a short while but the part he played revealed some pretty major lore elements. His English voice actor was also very talented.

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Yeah, we learned that we can't ever beat the bad guys because we'll destroy the world. So we gotta put up with the Ascians as villians forever now. I could have done without that lore element.

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Originally Posted by Edax

No, I didn't scenario skip. Nor did I say Elidibus was a new character. Nothing I have said implied that. Last I remember, White Robe was chatting on the moon with a useless character.

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a useless character?Dude that's an entire patch of MSQ quests dedicated to that "useless" character and his friends in Heavensward and that wasn't even the last time Elidibus appeared in Heavensward either,after that he gives the eyes of Nidhogg to Illberd whom then would use to FREAKIN SUMMON SHINRYU THROUGH A RITUAL.

There is no way you missed ALL of this without buying scenario skips or pressing skip through every cutscene

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Originally Posted by Edax

Was it too much ask for an intriguing plot? It was interesting for me uncovering the history of Lady Iceheart and her Heretics. There was nothing to Zenos beyond the first impression.

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Allow me to assist in clearing this up a little.

During one of the interviews that Yoshi held prior to Stormblood's release, I believe he mentioned that he really wanted Zenos to be a character that players would not sympathize with (I'll have to do several extensive searches to find the media links, sources etc... but this was a well known fact at the time).

In the past, the Dev team had given us Gaius and a few other antagonists who were sort of "grey", complicated, and not pure evil... even Nael who dropped Bahamut on our heads found some sympathy. As such, as I understand it, the team developed Zenos to be unflinchingly evil, yet in a charming way that made one like the guy as a pure villain. He was vain, arrogant, unruffled, had presence like a true prince, and was just downright badness (and he even repeatedly justifies his badness)... these are some of the elements I completely liked about him because the game needed such a character.

The real clincher was that his voice acting in all the various languages were delivered quite brilliantly.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Yeah, we learned that we can't ever beat the bad guys because we'll destroy the world. So we gotta put up with the Ascians as villians forever now. I could have done without that lore element.

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I find the alternative much more dull - that the super special hero can oppose everybody who gets in their way without any real consequences. You only need to look at the real world to see that things are rarely so simple as targeting a particular leader or country and eliminating a threat. Often what replaces them is much worse and plunges that country - and others, by consequence - into chaos.

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Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1

a useless character?Dude that's an entire patch of MSQ quests dedicated to that "useless" character and his friends in Heavensward and that wasn't even the last time Elidibus appeared in Heavensward either,after that he gives the eyes of Nidhogg to Illberd whom then would use to FREAKIN SUMMON SHINRYU THROUGH A RITUAL.

There is no way you missed ALL of this without buying scenario skips or pressing skip through every cutscene

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Yeah, he wasted an entire patch. Warrior of Darkness had absolutely nothing to do with the Dragonsong War. He was a complete filler character.
/sarcasm Oh he destroyed his own world and now he wanted to destroy ours? What a compelling character!

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Originally Posted by Edax

Yeah, he wasted an entire patch. Warrior of Darkness had absolutely nothing to do with the Dragonsong War. He was a complete filler character.

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I get the feeling that a lot of the game's nuances are lost on you in general.

Heavensward may have been primarily about Ishgard and the Dragonsong War but it was hardly the only plot element to be destroyed. The Warrior of Darkness advanced a plot line that has been a part of the overarching narrative since the days of 1.0...it isn't as if a story has to focus on one plot point at a time and nothing else. That'd be rather dull.

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Originally Posted by Edax

/sarcasm Oh he destroyed his own world and now he wanted to destroy ours? What a compelling character!

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It's a good thing it isn't that simple, eh? He did exactly why Hydaelyn told him to do. The exact same thing that the Warrior of Light is doing right now, in fact...and despite doing everything correctly his world was still plunged into ruin and his life was forfeit as a consequence as well as the lives of everybody he cared for.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I find the alternative much more dull - that the super special hero can oppose everybody who gets in their way without any real consequences. You only need to look at the real world to see that things are rarely so simple as targeting a particular leader or country and eliminating a threat. Often what replaces them is much worse and plunges that country - and others, by consequence - into chaos.

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If the villains were better, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But this Organization XIII knockoff are basically Power Ranger villains when it comes to their writing. And the knowledge that we're stuck with these guys forever is the painful part. The world is a little more complicated then cultists in masks trying to bring chaos to the world.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Yeah, he wasted an entire patch. Warrior of Darkness had absolutely nothing to do with the Dragonsong War. He was a complete filler character.
/sarcasm Oh he destroyed his own world and now he wanted to destroy ours? What a compelling character!

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Ummm...you do realize that they appeared AFTER the end of the dragonsong war so yes they have nothing to do with it BECAUSE IT'S ALREADY OVER.

And like Theodric said before me....this has been a plotline since 1.0.

His plotline's existence is to send a message to the warrior of light,who btw has been doing the same thing Hydaelyn tasked them to do as he did.The fact that there are consequences to our seemingly heroic action and as mentioned before....there are lots of people we killed that have actual loved ones in their lives whom they wished to protect by doing what they thought to be the "right thing" like Livia,Rhitatyn and the knights of the Heavens Ward.

If you want this to be a classic FF story like FF1 or 3 where the heroes are always doing the right thing and they will always prevail with no consequences to anything they do......then I dunno if there is anything in 14 past ARR that would interest you if you expect a permenant solution to the ascian problem especially when the story isn't even over yet.Cuz even the defeat of Thordan shook the very foundation of Ishgard and resulted in a dozen consequences.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I get the feeling that a lot of the game's nuances are lost on you in general.

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My thoughts exactly Theo... my thoughts exactly. +1

Edax, I've tried to really understand your side of your arguments and comments; however, it seems you might have misunderstood several of the core subtleties of the game's MSQ.

Honestly of all the things I will criticize this game for, the villains wouldn't even enter the top fifty for consideration. Really my only problem with villains in this game is how the writers sometimes force otherwise competent characters to be beaten to death with the idiot stick in order to add weight and menace to villains that should be able to stand up on their own. It cheapens what are otherwise decent antagonists because you can't help but sit there, groaning as the Scions bumble through something that anyone with two brain cells can piece together when just quests before they were perfectly competent. Asahi is the perfect example of this. Whatever competency Alphinaud, Alisaie, and Hien had was thrown to the side because the writers took the short and cheap way to pull a twist anyone could have seen coming from a mile away.

When it comes to the WoD, I'd say he was actually handled fairly competently by comparison. As were Elidibus, Zenos, and Gaius; and all the main villains that weren't introduced and killed off in the secondary patches between expansions. I'd also hesitate to call him a filler character because that plot line is pretty clearly unfinished and a basis for something that might come later down the road. They're pretty clearly setting something up with the World of Light given that Minfillia went with them, and SE is loathe to fully shelve that character in spite of general fan distaste.

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Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1

Ummm...you do realize that they appeared AFTER the end of the dragonsong war so yes they have nothing to do with it BECAUSE IT'S ALREADY OVER.

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Ummm...you do realize the expansion is called HEAVENSWARD.

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Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1

If you want this to be a classic FF story like FF1 or 3 where the heroes are always doing the right thing and they will always prevail with no consequences to anything they do......then I dunno if there is anything in 14 past ARR that would interest you if you expect a permenant solution to the ascian problem especially when the story isn't even over yet.Cuz even the defeat of Thordan shook the very foundation of Ishgard and resulted in a dozen consequences.

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No, that's the last thing I want. I want better villains. I've been to Anime Expo many times, I can't remember seeing anyone dress up as an Ascian. And I can understand why, who cares about them? Look at this poor writing, so we gotta just put up with everything that Elidibus does because we'll risk destroying the world with light if we defeat him and his cohorts. So what, if he develops a spanking machine, we gotta bend over or risk destroying the world? This writing is childish! These guys can possess every World Leader if they wanted and have every city-state fight each other to the death because they have unlimited, undefined powers at this point, and we're not allowed to stop them anymore either.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Ummm...you do realize the expansion is called HEAVENSWARD.

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Which is the name of Count Edmont De Fortemp's book as shown at the end of tail-end of that particular storyline. It's also an /actual/ word, which as the name implies, means towards heaven. Which given the heavy religious themes of the expansion and two societies literally being pulled out of a thousand year war towards a brighter future is rather apt. It's a simple example of a double meaning and word play which is lost if you just take it at face value as 'oh it's just the name of the secondary villains'. Is it the best use of it? Not really, but the dual meanings for the expansion are practically beating you over the head once the Ishgard part of the storyline is over and are exceedingly hard to miss.

Also the entire set up for Ala Mhigo happened in the last two patches of Heavensward. That entire story was effectively done once Nidhogg died and the rest of the wrap up until Stormblood focused away from Ishgard's conflicts. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Enla

Which is the name of Count Edmont De Fortemp's book as shown at the end of tail-end of that particular storyline. It's also an /actual/ word, which as the name implies, means towards heaven. Which given the heavy religious themes of the expansion and two societies literally being pulled out of a thousand year war towards a brighter future is rather apt. It's a simple example of a double meaning and word play which is lost if you just take it at face value as 'oh it's just the name of the secondary villains'. Is it the best use of it? Not really, but the dual meanings for the expansion are practically beating you over the head once the Ishgard part of the storyline is over and are exceedingly hard to miss.

Also the entire set up for Ala Mhigo happened in the last two patches of Heavensward. That entire story was effectively done once Nidhogg died and the rest of the wrap up until Stormblood focused away from Ishgard's conflicts. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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You have a point there. I guess the Heavensward patches did meander for quite a bit.

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"Come at me eikon slayer"
>turns into a eikon
Idiot

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I chuckled.

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Zenos is why everybody should be playing with Japanese voices. Whoever was in charge of the English VA work did a horrible job.

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I, too, love watching scenes of people talking in a language I don't know. Definitely enriches the experience.

I think after this I'll go watch an episode of Star Trek in French, just cuz.

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Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1

(SPOILER ALERT again for both previous and current patches)


Remember the sahagin priest from ARR and how he used the echo to possess different bodies similar to what the Ascians do?

Well Zenos used the Resonant(a power that is pretty much the same as the echo) to send his soul to a different body.....that of an Elezen who was a part of the Ala Mhigan resistance.

That elezen appeared in a cutscene inside the Magitek research facility in Gyr Abania where he killed a resistance member,stole a garlean magitek vehicle and mentioned that "the hunt" must continue......using the same sword zenos used and displaying the same power zenos used.

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We've *assumed* it's the Resonance that allowed Zenos to do that.... but can't be 100% sure. (I've seen an alternate theory that it might be something to do with the sword - which seemed to initially get pointed out as 'something special' but that's never come up again... so perhaps some chance of an ancient relic being able to harbour a soul until the next unfortunate person comes along and picks it up. Compare the lore surrounding the primal Odin, which suggests the primal actually resides in the sword while the armoured rider is a tempered mortal.)


In any case, the "katana-wielding soldier" is certainly intended to be Zenos, and there are several cues.

- his choice of weapon (whether it's the exact same sword or not)

- his reference to "the hunt"

- speaking in theatrical metaphors - Zenos also did this in the scene at Ala Mhigo just before he killed himself. Possibly earlier too - would not be surprised it it's a running feature of his dialogue I didn't notice at the time. I will pay more attention when I get to replaying Stormblood!

- saying he has "lost many things, but his mind is still his own" - implying that his body is not.

- just before flying off, he smirks - and it's very much Zenos's expression on a different face.

I've made it no secret that I love him. And unlike a lot of other people I do sympathies with him. There just wasn't enough of him. I'm hopeful though that I'll see him again (not just the body) but enjoy the presence of his mind and soul.
I hated Yotsuyo with a burning passion. She was weak, disgusting and pathetic to me, and I wanted her dead as soon as possible. The fact that she took the only other character (Asahi) from the whole expansion with her in her fall surely didn't make it any better. It certainly didn't soften my annoyance overall of SE's habit of killing or ruining characters I like.
I miss them.

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Originally Posted by Edax

No. And Zenos was just picking up random weapons off the ground to use, so that doesn't even match up what that random Elezen using Zeno's katana. So that's implying that Elezen is somebody else since Zeno's defining trait was that he wasn't attached to any of his weapons.

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Yet somehow he still always used Katana. We have it not 100% confirmed as true but his talk, the way he attacks, the comment about dieing but not feeling like going for redemption and the talk about the hunt and his knowledge about Garlean technology makes it quite clear that its probably him.

About fighting alone or in a group, here are some quotes out of the lore book:

Garuda: "[..] the trio emarked upon their journey to confront Garuda." "Amidst the whirling winds the adventurer suceeded in striking down the Lady of the Vortex, only to see her rise once more [...]"

Rhitahtyn sas Arvina: "The adventurer then led a small unit into the innermost sector, and at the end of a fierce struggle, dealt [..] his death-blow"

Castrum Meridianum: "[...] the selfsame adventurer [...] once more took charge of an elite adventurer unit." "[...] Cid nan Garlond delivered the adventurer and his comrades to the stage of the final confrontation with Gaisu [...]"

Ultima Weapon: " [...] the adventurer was spared death and as the fires raged all about, he laid low both Gaius and his Ultima Weapon." (seemingly the rest has died)

Ramuh: "[...] the Lord of Levin elected to suspend judgement until the Warrior of Light himself underwent a trial by combat. Thus was he forced to strike down Ramuh [...]"

Against Nabriales: "He then tore open a dimensional rift [...] and the Warrior of Light followed. In that otherwordly void the adventurer defeated his Ascian foe and rescued Minfilia, returning all three to the Rising Stones."

The steps of Faith: "[...] that the Scions make every effort to assemble a contingent of elite adventurers - a volunteer force under the leadership of the Warrior of Light."

King Thordan: "Judgement passed the self-proclaimed god-king duly turned to leave, but not before issuing the Warrior of Light a challenge. [...] he would need to strike him and his knights down. How the Warrior of LIght managed to overcome such impossible odds that day, none can say."

This are only small examples but the lore book makes it quite clear when we are alone and when we have other adventurers with us. As far as I can see we only had them with us at the end of 2.0 against Garlemald and at the steps of faith (where we searched for adventurers even ingame). Every single primae was done solo according to lore book and some even wonder how he for example manages to slay Thordan and his knights alone. That way the story also makes sense because we simply had no time to get adventurers in most of the scenes. So for me it makes sense that ingame all the talk about having comrades is mostly just a hint for us to gather people and maybe an ingame joke about this.

About the topic: I am fine with villians like Zenos because people like him do exist in the real life too and not everyone needs some bad past to have reasons to be a certain way. I am just a bit sad that his story did not end after the fight, because I am not really sure how he can still be interesting to the story itself and I dont want someone that constantly tries to fight us either.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I don't think it's an oddity, loads of people liked him. The oddity was the fact that he was specifically created to be an unrelatable, unlikable asshat character, but yet the steps taken to make him such are what ended up endearing himself to the playerbase anyway.

Personally I just thought of him as a boring invincible Villain Sue.

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I don't think I've met anyone more aware of his own fragility than Zenos. He's hopeful, but very prepared for life to hold no promise for him. In this case, his VillainSue-ness seems to me to stem wholly from his antipathy, which he is wholly conscious of -- though also of his lacking ability or desire to force a change in. (Honestly, for a villain of any sort, or even the tragic hero archetype, he's got the makings of a catch 22 that rarely fails to sell to an audience that's not immediately dismissive (or, one that doesn't hate him just for the tropes introduced with or upon him).)

For that, I can't really brush him off. If you treat him from the start as caricature, he meets expectations, but the same is true if you treat him from the start as a real character.

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This are only small examples but the lore book makes it quite clear when we are alone and when we have other adventurers with us. As far as I can see we only had them with us at the end of 2.0 against Garlemald and at the steps of faith (where we searched for adventurers even ingame). Every single primae was done solo according to lore book and some even wonder how he for example manages to slay Thordan and his knights alone. That way the story also makes sense because we simply had no time to get adventurers in most of the scenes. So for me it makes sense that ingame all the talk about having comrades is mostly just a hint for us to gather people and maybe an ingame joke about this.

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They're definitely making a joke out of it. Take a look at the DF description for the Pool of Tribute (story Susano fight) for outright confirmation on that >_>

@OP
No I don't find it weird that you like Xenos.

I find it unfair that people compare Yotsuyuu to Xenos considering her story arc is finished and his isn't. If i remember correctly there was a tiny bit of hate towards Yotsuyuu at first because she seemed evil for the sake of being evil as well (although there were way more "step on me" memes).

I don't think I have a character I hate in this game from a "oh it's poorly written" way. They all have their role with pros and cons. Unfortunatly that also means I have no character i absolutely love. I like them all in their own ways, including Xenos.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Ummm...you do realize the expansion is called HEAVENSWARD.



No, that's the last thing I want. I want better villains. I've been to Anime Expo many times, I can't remember seeing anyone dress up as an Ascian. And I can understand why, who cares about them? Look at this poor writing, so we gotta just put up with everything that Elidibus does because we'll risk destroying the world with light if we defeat him and his cohorts. So what, if he develops a spanking machine, we gotta bend over or risk destroying the world? This writing is childish! These guys can possess every World Leader if they wanted and have every city-state fight each other to the death because they have unlimited, undefined powers at this point, and we're not allowed to stop them anymore either.

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Duh I know.....I'm just differenciating between the name of the expansion and Thordan's Knights who btw ARE ALSO CALLED THE HEAVENSWARD YET YOU CONFUSED THE TWO.

Also I'm not defending the ascians by any means and beside Elidibus they're my least favorite aspect of the game so don't take me defending other elements as a defense of the ascians

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Originally Posted by Enla

Honestly of all the things I will criticize this game for, the villains wouldn't even enter the top fifty for consideration. Really my only problem with villains in this game is how the writers sometimes force otherwise competent characters to be beaten to death with the idiot stick in order to add weight and menace to villains that should be able to stand up on their own. It cheapens what are otherwise decent antagonists because you can't help but sit there, groaning as the Scions bumble through something that anyone with two brain cells can piece together when just quests before they were perfectly competent. Asahi is the perfect example of this. Whatever competency Alphinaud, Alisaie, and Hien had was thrown to the side because the writers took the short and cheap way to pull a twist anyone could have seen coming from a mile away.

When it comes to the WoD, I'd say he was actually handled fairly competently by comparison. As were Elidibus, Zenos, and Gaius; and all the main villains that weren't introduced and killed off in the secondary patches between expansions. I'd also hesitate to call him a filler character because that plot line is pretty clearly unfinished and a basis for something that might come later down the road. They're pretty clearly setting something up with the World of Light given that Minfillia went with them, and SE is loathe to fully shelve that character in spite of general fan distaste.

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Honestly I wasn't too fond of the scions in ARR either especially Minfillia in particular cuz I can't stand her.It was why I was glad in Heavensward they were barely there

As for the villains....again my taste is weird(and probably a garbage taste by most standards).

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Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1

Duh I know.....I'm just differenciating between the name of the expansion and Thordan's Knights who btw ARE ALSO CALLED THE HEAVENSWARD YET YOU CONFUSED THE TWO.

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Actually, while the game - and Edmont's book - is titled "Heavensward" (ie. "towards the heavens"), Thordan's knights are the "Heavens' Ward" (intended to be "guard of the heavens", I think, though I'm not sure the grammar is right).

The game title is multilayered of course, between "heavensward", the Heavens' Ward and perhaps also us being a ward of House Fortemps.


Also, no need to shout. It adds nothing to your argument and makes you come off as really aggressive.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Actually, while the game - and Edmont's book - is titled "Heavensward" (ie. "towards the heavens"), Thordan's knights are the "Heavens' Ward" (intended to be "guard of the heavens", I think, though I'm not sure the grammar is right).

The game title is multilayered of course, between "heavensward", the Heavens' Ward and perhaps also us being a ward of House Fortemps.


Also, no need to shout. It adds nothing to your argument and makes you come off as really aggressive.

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Sorry for the shouting.....I just got aggrevated when out of all of what I said he nitpicked that one bit and ignored the rest

Nothing wrong with liking Zenos, though I personally don't. I didn't find him or Yotsuyu engaging. Fordola was the only one of the three main antagonists I had any interest in. Zenos was made intentionally unsympathetic, and while Yotsuyu's story could have been a compelling tragedy, the way it was handled just made 4.2 and 4.3 msq crimge worthy for me.

With Zenos maybe if there was more time exploring what made him the way he is, or if he had more nuance or even just a more entertaining personality maybe I'd have liked him. But I just had nothing to latch onto as a character. He had a fun boss fight and good voice actor but those couldn't save him from the writing for me.


4.4 spoilers

SE has a second chance with Zenos now but it's too late for them to make Yotsuyu engaging.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

They're definitely making a joke out of it. Take a look at the DF description for the Pool of Tribute (story Susano fight) for outright confirmation on that >_>

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We also have Lyse in the 4.1 fight against Lakshmi saying 'it takes more than three to kill a primal.' If the WOL was soloing primals left and right we wouldnt' have even needed Arenvald and Fordola there, except for the first bit to protect people from being tempered.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Nothing wrong with liking Zenos, though I personally don't. I didn't find him or Yotsuyu engaging. Fordola was the only one of the three main antagonists I had any interest in. Zenos was made intentionally unsympathetic, and while Yotsuyu's story could have been a compelling tragedy, the way it was handled just made 4.2 and 4.3 msq crimge worthy for me.

With Zenos maybe if there was more time exploring what made him the way he is, or if he had more nuance or even just a more entertaining personality maybe I'd have liked him. But I just had nothing to latch onto as a character. He had a fun boss fight and good voice actor but those couldn't save him from the writing for me.


4.4 spoilers

SE has a second chance with Zenos now but it's too late for them to make Yotsuyu engaging.

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I good nuanced villain would have been compelling from the start. When I saw the previews of 4.2 and 4.3, I cringed and avoided the MSQ for many months. I could see they were trying to make Yotsuyu sympathetic, and I just wasn't having any of it. I do not want to sympathize with someone who attempts to purge villages for no reason. In my eyes, you don't come back from genocide. I suppose Yotsuyu's story could have been a critique of Japanese culture, where her parents were the monsters living next door and everyone knew it and did nothing about it and for that were now paying the price for minding their own business. But I see little to no evidence that the story was trying to make that point. They regretted that her parents were awful and shrugged it off in Doma. The story was an attempt to sympathize with a monster like Stalin, whose father did savagely beat him as a child, and perhaps turned him into the monster of history. But this is not a compelling story, and I do not feel sorry for Stalin because of all the pointless suffering and murders he caused. It's the same reasons I did not feel sorry for Yotsuyu. In fact, using Identity Amnesia was really lame, practically an ancient soap opera trope to goes back to the beginning of television. But I know I form the minority opinion on this since I've seen many people praising Yotsuyu's story.

I know people say Zeno's story isn't over yet, and that we're not supposed to judge, but first impressions are important, and he's done nothing compelling for all of Stormblood so far. Waiting until the last second to become well-written is not actually good writing. The moment we saw the Pope in Heavensward, we knew there was more to the story already then first impressions. The moment after we confronted Lady Iceheart, we knew there was more to the story then the first impressions we were given. They were examples of better writing. Apparently I was wrong and Zenos is an Elezen now, but what element of Zeno's story is being built upon here? Did he even have a story to continue? Or is it just the character continuing to exist for longer?

I don't hate Zenos as an antagonist, but he's not my favorite one either. Still, I guess I like him well enough.

I like his English voice, though more while he's actually voicing Zenos himself, not as Elidibus in Zenos' body. ElidiZenos sounds so stilted in English for some reason. Anyway, I've been highly curious what part he has yet to play so I could grow to like him more depending on how things play out.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Snip

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Hindsight is 20/20 but I think that Yotsuyu's story could have been much better with a few tweaks.

1. No murdering villagers for her own amusement or coercing them into murdering eachother. Have her be a brutal occupier, sure, but get rid of the over the top sadism and cruelty.

2. Make her older. Have abuse have been before the imperial occupation. Having suffered from the worst pits of doman society pre occupation, build the foundation that she doesn't think domans are fit to rule themselves and require order imposed by the empire. Have this play into Hien's arc where he recognizes that not all was well in Doma before the occupation and vowing to build a better nation where people like Yotsuyu don't fall through the cracks. Have the imperial rule be oppressive enough that the player still sides with the rebellion and winning freedom, but without the sadism so Yotsuyu's perspective makes more sense and isn't driven just by revenge. Have her truly believe that Doma is better off under the yoke of the empire.

3. With the above, get rid of the cheap childish amnesia Tsuyu thing. You don't need it anymore, because now you have a villain where you can use to explore some moral ambiguity. With a less bloodthirsty Yotsuyu, you wouldn't have to play with convenient amnesia when asking if she could be redeemed. You can still have her betray Doma for the empire, still have her driven to becoming a primal, but no need for plot device amnesia. You could simply have her consider the possibility of helping to build a better doma with Hien and then rejecting the idea, going along with Asahi's plan because she ultimately cannot bring herself to trust her countrymen.

Zenos' story could have been better if we say, got an echo vision or two seeing a younger Zenos and seeing what shaped him into a monster. Lyse says at the end of 4.0 that even Zenos wasn't born a monster but we don't know as of yet what made him one, despite having seen more of Yotsuyu and Fordola's backstories for how they ended up as they did.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Zenos' story could have been better if we say, got an echo vision or two seeing a younger Zenos and seeing what shaped him into a monster. Lyse says at the end of 4.0 that even Zenos wasn't born a monster but we don't know as of yet what made him one, despite having seen more of Yotsuyu and Fordola's backstories for how they ended up as they did.

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It's pretty heavily implied that he was experimented upon, which led to him losing any sense of empathy. Though it's more from context clues and never outright confirmed that the experimentation was what did it. Given that they're bringing him back it's likely we'll eventually get our answer one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Hindsight is 20/20 but I think that Yotsuyu's story could have been much better with a few tweaks.

1. No murdering villagers for her own amusement or coercing them into murdering eachother. Have her be a brutal occupier, sure, but get rid of the over the top sadism and cruelty.

2. Make her older. Have abuse have been before the imperial occupation. Having suffered from the worst pits of doman society pre occupation, build the foundation that she doesn't think domans are fit to rule themselves and require order imposed by the empire. Have this play into Hien's arc where he recognizes that not all was well in Doma before the occupation and vowing to build a better nation where people like Yotsuyu don't fall through the cracks. Have the imperial rule be oppressive enough that the player still sides with the rebellion and winning freedom, but without the sadism so Yotsuyu's perspective makes more sense and isn't driven just by revenge. Have her truly believe that Doma is better off under the yoke of the empire.

3. With the above, get rid of the cheap childish amnesia Tsuyu thing. You don't need it anymore, because now you have a villain where you can use to explore some moral ambiguity. With a less bloodthirsty Yotsuyu, you wouldn't have to play with convenient amnesia when asking if she could be redeemed. You can still have her betray Doma for the empire, still have her driven to becoming a primal, but no need for plot device amnesia. You could simply have her consider the possibility of helping to build a better doma with Hien and then rejecting the idea, going along with Asahi's plan because she ultimately cannot bring herself to trust her countrymen.

Zenos' story could have been better if we say, got an echo vision or two seeing a younger Zenos and seeing what shaped him into a monster. Lyse says at the end of 4.0 that even Zenos wasn't born a monster but we don't know as of yet what made him one, despite having seen more of Yotsuyu and Fordola's backstories for how they ended up as they did.

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I completely agree.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Hindsight is 20/20 but I think that Yotsuyu's story could have been much better with a few tweaks.

1. No murdering villagers for her own amusement or coercing them into murdering eachother. Have her be a brutal occupier, sure, but get rid of the over the top sadism and cruelty.

2. Make her older. Have abuse have been before the imperial occupation. Having suffered from the worst pits of doman society pre occupation, build the foundation that she doesn't think domans are fit to rule themselves and require order imposed by the empire. Have this play into Hien's arc where he recognizes that not all was well in Doma before the occupation and vowing to build a better nation where people like Yotsuyu don't fall through the cracks. Have the imperial rule be oppressive enough that the player still sides with the rebellion and winning freedom, but without the sadism so Yotsuyu's perspective makes more sense and isn't driven just by revenge. Have her truly believe that Doma is better off under the yoke of the empire.

3. With the above, get rid of the cheap childish amnesia Tsuyu thing. You don't need it anymore, because now you have a villain where you can use to explore some moral ambiguity. With a less bloodthirsty Yotsuyu, you wouldn't have to play with convenient amnesia when asking if she could be redeemed. You can still have her betray Doma for the empire, still have her driven to becoming a primal, but no need for plot device amnesia. You could simply have her consider the possibility of helping to build a better doma with Hien and then rejecting the idea, going along with Asahi's plan because she ultimately cannot bring herself to trust her countrymen.

Zenos' story could have been better if we say, got an echo vision or two seeing a younger Zenos and seeing what shaped him into a monster. Lyse says at the end of 4.0 that even Zenos wasn't born a monster but we don't know as of yet what made him one, despite having seen more of Yotsuyu and Fordola's backstories for how they ended up as they did.

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There is still a potential for that to happen...I mean a glimpse at Zenos's past cuz since his storyline isn't over yet

Tho I absolutely agree with you on Yotsuyu,the over the top sadism on display made her irredeemable for me no matter how sad and cruel her past was .When she died I felt sorry for poor Gosetsu instead who just had to be reminded of the death of his family again through her

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Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1

There is still a potential for that to happen...I mean a glimpse at Zenos's past cuz since his storyline isn't over yet

Tho I absolutely agree with you on Yotsuyu,the over the top sadism on display made her irredeemable for me no matter how sad and cruel her past was .When she died I felt sorry for poor Gosetsu instead who just had to be reminded of the death of his family again through her

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He probably thought it was all cringe worthy. Last we saw him he was like "Welp, that happened. I'm gonna wander the land and do Gosetsu things, you all have fun being terribly written."

(This isn't what was actually said)

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

He probably thought it was all cringe worthy. Last we saw him he was like "Welp, that happened. I'm gonna wander the land and do Gosetsu things, you all have fun being terribly written."

(This isn't what was actually said)

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Funnily enough, to me, he really did have that look in that particular scene where he's just done with all this nonsense.

That arc made me dislike Yotsuyu as a character. Once again, SE has to play the contrived 3dimensional card on a character that just can't be a simple sadist bitch.

Zenos was okay. He was too much of a Saturday morning Shonen antagonist to really wow me though. Seeing him completely and effortlessly smash my character during their first encounter was a nice change of pace though. The WoL comes dangerously close to being a Mary Sue at times.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

He probably thought it was all cringe worthy. Last we saw him he was like "Welp, that happened. I'm gonna wander the land and do Gosetsu things, you all have fun being terribly written."

(This isn't what was actually said)

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K..........xD

Guess that's one way of seeing it xD

But yeah I'm not too fond of how Yotsuyu was written either.Tho trust me she is far from being the worst written Final Fantasy character.....that honor(or dishonor) belongs to the entire cast of FF13 throughout all games in that trilogy

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Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1

that honor(or dishonor) belongs to the entire cast of FF13 throughout all games in that trilogy

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Never speak of those gaming atrocities. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Never speak of those gaming atrocities. Ever.

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But "Heroes Never Need plans" don'tcha know xD *says Snow Villiers as his dumbass causes the death of like 50+ people*