PvP and its Popularity

Well... Maybe people are just not into PvP and devs can't do anything about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by RareItems

Try playing BDO at least for a month. You'll understand what i'm talking about :D.

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If you're referring to it's "hack n slash" targeting, like the other poster said tab targeting isn't the main issue with the PvP here, there's too many mmos with fun PvP that are tab target. If you're talking about BDO's combo system that would call for a complete overall which isn't happening.

Remember you don't slot BDO's skills, you combo them

Having to wait to get 24 people into a match is what causes the 30 min long queues.

They need to tone it down somehow to 4 people in a team. Change the objectives accordingly.

Or do an 8 v 8 capture the flag mode.

the modes are pretty much already known to work styles.
the 3-way system is largely what makes frontlines turn into a massive mess. Holding multiple fronts is kind of beyond a random mass of peoples strategic ability and even if someone skilled steps up to be a commander a ton of people just ignore
Rival wings is just... eff those stupid robots... the objectives and DOTA style was all fine until you add in "lets have a bunch of robots that damn near one shot anybody in a massive AoE and move like lightning"
and wolves den has a strangely unique problem of the rewards are so incredibly limited and exclusive that a small group of people make alts and get all the rewards on every data center just because they can do it so easily and there is no way to work towards the rewards. It's either you already have the skill and lock your position during the initial two week rush or you sit for ages waiting for matches that will never happen and never even have an opportunity to raise through the ranks. Kind of a demoralizing system

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Originally Posted by Repulse97

Do any of you have any ideas you wanna drop down that you think would help make PvP more popular? 5.0 PvP used to be super fun but I guess it was because I played Bard/MCH and they were beastly. Then came the job nerfs inside PvP and it just seems a little too bland. As a dps, I sit in queue for Ranked Feast for sometimes 30+ mins, and I feel that's when you know a feature needs renovation. What they did with Frontlines (rotate the maps daily) was great. Queues are typically short, even if you don't have Freelance clicked.

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Fix the underlying physics engine and netcode so that engaging combat is actually possible.

Revise the jobs, aiming for deep gameplay and versatility of purpose within relatively few keys.

Move PvP away from the GCs; each GC will have their own tactics, gears, tricks and tips, and the reward systems would aim to keep a balance between them, but combat is now a single team vs. a single team.

Insure that PvE elements augment the PvP, rather than PvP seeming simply the barrier to the real, PvE elements.

Develop PvP modes that actually feel distinct, rather than each being just a new skin and slightly more PvE-oriented version of another.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Well... Maybe people are just not into PvP and devs can't do anything about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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You know what we call a game no one is into? A shit game.

Could be PvE. Could be PvP. Could be the equivalent of house decoration. If no one plays it, it's almost certainly not a good game. All the more so when players have had ready access to try it, yet don't go back for seconds. Even in a nominally PvE-focused take on the genre, like XIV's, player participation absolutely should be taken as a sign of quality.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You know what we call a game no one is into? A shit game.

Could be PvE. Could be PvP. Could be the equivalent of house decoration. If no one plays it, it's almost certainly not a good game. All the more so when players have had ready access to try it, yet don't go back for seconds. Even in a nominally PvE-focused take on the genre, like XIV's, player participation absolutely should be taken as a sign of quality.

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Pretty much this and they wanted to make it an E sport which idk why they even tried or even have Culling Time when honestly no one plays it due to all the issues it already has which makes it less appealing to the masses, they even tried to make it safe by removing the "toxic" chat lmao like let's be real here that was a huge mistake. The quality has been steadily declining more and more everyday I wish SE would realize this.

The other thing that makes it decoration is there's no progress outside of blind ranked Feast, all you get is Wolf Seals for glamours and mounts you don't actually progress you spend your seals and call it a day in WoWs PvP it's structured so you can get upgrades and rewards you with gear as you arena or do ranked BGs. It's great that you can throw on whatever gear you want and look pretty but after that the gear is just glamour fodder at the end of the day at least with the Garo gear you could gear up some alts to tie you over in PvP since there was an ilvl sync option at the time and you could mix and match gear to get the stats you wanted.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You know what we call a game no one is into? A shit game.

Could be PvE. Could be PvP. Could be the equivalent of house decoration. If no one plays it, it's almost certainly not a good game. All the more so when players have had ready access to try it, yet don't go back for seconds. Even in a nominally PvE-focused take on the genre, like XIV's, player participation absolutely should be taken as a sign of quality.

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Yeah. I'm hoping that eventually they'll get it right, but every time I see a new Feast season announced this is pretty much my reaction:

https://media.giphy.com/media/TGxyQDB2XuQ3S/giphy.gif

What good is it whenever barely anyone in the player base will even touch it, much less hope to win anything? Seems counter productive to me. They need to focus on the core of the problem, and that is that it's not overly exciting and the rewards for PvP as a whole aren't entirely equal to the time required to get them.

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Originally Posted by Repulse97

Do any of you have any ideas you wanna drop down that you think would help make PvP more popular? 5.0 PvP used to be super fun but I guess it was because I played Bard/MCH and they were beastly. Then came the job nerfs inside PvP and it just seems a little too bland. As a dps, I sit in queue for Ranked Feast for sometimes 30+ mins, and I feel that's when you know a feature needs renovation. What they did with Frontlines (rotate the maps daily) was great. Queues are typically short, even if you don't have Freelance clicked.

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FFXIV's battle system and netcode isn't suited for pvp. As long as it ll remain that way, pvp will never be popular in this game.

They need to seriously reconsider the e-sports thing. I mean, the winning team gets tickets to fanfest, but even then, it took a LONG time for 10 teams to even appear on the leaderboards!

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

They need to seriously reconsider the e-sports thing. I mean, the winning team gets tickets to fanfest, but even then, it took a LONG time for 10 teams to even appear on the leaderboards!

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If they would take the e-sports thing serious they wouldn't have ended up with a faceroll system because e-sports goes more torwards skill.

Weird minor tangent, does it strike anyone else as odd that they don't seem to have used the blood sands for anything pvp related? I always wondered why they went with the wolves den etc instead of something with the Colosseum, seems like it would be a natural fit. Or maybe they did use it for something pvp related and I overlooked it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You know what we call a game no one is into? A shit game.

Could be PvE. Could be PvP. Could be the equivalent of house decoration. If no one plays it, it's almost certainly not a good game. All the more so when players have had ready access to try it, yet don't go back for seconds. Even in a nominally PvE-focused take on the genre, like XIV's, player participation absolutely should be taken as a sign of quality.

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I don't know, I don't care at all about PvP in this game cause if I was looking for PvP I'd play a PvP focused game where PvP is the main attraction. FFXIV totaly is a PvE focused game and PvP is just a bones for the minority of PvP player to chew on, they gives reward to avoid the "I play PvP for nothing" rant and justify the waste of ressources it is. What a waste to lock mount, gesture and haircut in this niche feature.

All the "e-sport" thing is just them surfing the current wave of popularity, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

I don't know, I don't care at all about PvP in this game cause if I was looking for PvP I'd play a PvP focused game where PvP is the main attraction.

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Which honestly begs the question: What even IS the main attraction in FFXIV?

Is it the PvE combat? The story? The housing? The crafting? The gold saucer (lol)? Just dressing up via glamour? As a theme park, FFXIV isn't much of a focused game at all, it just throws a bunch of half-assed systems your way and hope some stick, each of them being considerably worse than what a dedicated game could offer in that same area. PvP is just particularly terrible because it's an off-shot of a shallow PvE combat system that's already mediocre at best.

Well, its a Final Fantasy game. Like in every Final Fantasy game I know the main attraction is its story, its universe and by extension the PvE fights so what did you expect ? You live an adventure, you fight the environnement, the only real opposing faction is garlemald and its not a playble one, its part of the environnement where we live. I can't even remember a single Final Fantasy where PvP was a thing.

Syncing the jobs was a good move. Condensing abilities was good on paper: less focus on playing the job and more focus on playing the match with who and where you target.

In practice, NOBODY actually plays to the match, so it fell flat. Nobody actually tries to win in PvP (except Maelstrom), or if they do, it's one person out of 24, so it doesn't matter. I've tried calling shots, and I get ignored or told to shut up. Everybody just runs around shooting each other while Mael takes another win.

In Feast, you'd think it would be better. But still people just do the same thing, run around aimlessly.

PvP could be good, but this community makes it garbage.

I think that's the point I would reiterate, actually: PvP could be good, but this community makes it garbage.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I think that's the point I would reiterate, actually: PvP could be good, but this community makes it garbage.

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Pretty much this, I remember mentioning on a forum that PvP needs more modes and maybe some high ilvl gear rewards again, and you know what I got? Someone saying that more PvP would make this game like WoW, and since Wow is toxic, FFXIV would become toxic.
They literally thought more PvP in FFXIV would make the entire game more toxic *face-palms*

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Pretty much this, I remember mentioning on a forum that PvP needs more modes and maybe some high ilvl gear rewards again, and you know what I got? Someone saying that more PvP would make this game like WoW, and since Wow is toxic, FFXIV would become toxic.
They literally thought more PvP in FFXIV would make the entire game more toxic *face-palms*

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WoW is such a boogeyman to this community I genuinely don't know what to tell people sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

This can be said for Chaos too except for the bot part. People just don't know how to play / don't care and are mostly just there for the wolf marks (I'm one of this kind, call me bad for it I don't care). The ones really caring about winning mostly join maelstrom which results in their high win ratio.

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bad, np don't care, i also do frontlines for the wolf marks and to teabag people

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Originally Posted by RareItems

If PVP didn't require 10min-2 hour wait queue time more ppl would play it xD. Instant queue instanced PVP like in Eureka would make it work.

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wow you never played season 2, gg

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Originally Posted by van_arn

WoW is such a boogeyman to this community I genuinely don't know what to tell people sometimes.

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Thats because the people here judge by hearsay or 1 time events.

I've only been playing PvP fairly recently, so I can't comment on or compare it to the pre SB system, but I personally find it's pretty fun and fairly balanced.

Having to focus down healers encourages party coordination.
Streamlined abilities makes it accessible and evens the field in terms of skill level.

I'm not sure I'd be playing it if it used the full skill set from PvE, as PvP moves way too fast in comparison.

I do wish tanks had perhaps a little more CC and less damage though. Even just a slight reduction on their CC cooldowns, and a 200 potency reduction on their combos would be enough, to simultaneously increase their value as a leader while reducing their appeal in terms of personal kills.

Its true that I started playing PvP for the rewards, but I'm sticking around for the experience.
I'd love more maps and more frontline modes.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I've only been playing PvP fairly recently, so I can't comment on or compare it to the pre SB system, but I personally find it's pretty fun and fairly balanced.

Having to focus down healers encourages party coordination.
Streamlined abilities makes it accessible and evens the field in terms of skill level.

I'm not sure I'd be playing it if it used the full skill set from PvE, as PvP moves way too fast in comparison.

I do wish tanks had perhaps a little more CC and less damage though. Even just a slight reduction on their CC cooldowns, and a 200 potency reduction on their combos would be enough, to simultaneously increase their value as a leader while reducing their appeal in terms of personal kills.

Its true that I started playing PvP for the rewards, but I'm sticking around for the experience.
I'd love more maps and more frontline modes.

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pre SB pvp was naught but slow, single players had way more carry potential than now, jobs were a bit unbalanced, there were actual stats that influence damage dealt and taken, way more CCs and debuffs of all kinds, and so on.

Back then you would notice immediately the difference and gap in skills, it was more noticeable, imagine healers being literally immortal while keeping the whole team alive the whole match, then imagine sudden deaths out of nowhere from dpses or tanks, imagine multiple kills (AoEs were there, they still here).
I personally prefer the old one, but I don't mind what we have right now.

Back then you had all your pve skills, with 5-6 pvp skills which were really good. The good thing was, do you know your pve drg opener? use that on pvp as full burst, see how things die.

PvP wont be popular ever again except they give us the 3.X PvP System back or Throw in another Garo-Like Event with Tons of Rewards. Its as easy as that.
Botters, Hackers, Rankingsellers EVERYWHERE and seemingly nothing is done about it. No one takes it seriously anymore and 3.X will be remembered as the golden time of FFXIV PvP

Lot of positivity is this thread. /s

But seriously though, as a console player, I greatly prefer the current system. Even from my FC buddies who plays on PC, number one issue during 3.x were that it had too many buttons for PvP. Followed by having the same hotbars as PvE and PvP exclusive actions in addition to your PvE actions.

I think PvP could be more popular if they released more Frontline/Rival Wings maps. Like one map every patch. Feast isnt for everyone but I think Frontline/Rival Wings attract more people since it's more casual. They give tomestones or EXP if you aren't max level so they will always be relevant.

I will gladly trade 1 dungeon every even-numbered patch if it meant we could get more PvP maps.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

Lot of positivity is this thread. /s

But seriously though, as a console player, I greatly prefer the current system. Even from my FC buddies who plays on PC, number one issue during 3.x were that it had too many buttons for PvP.

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Yes, the old System required skill to be able to be an outstanding player. You had to be able to use all those buttons correctly and skillgaps were very noticable. 1 skilled Bard, Warrior or literaly anyone with skill could kill 3 unskilled people on his own. Square Enix then made the mistake of trying to remove the "im so bad feeling" for those new or Casual players. All they did was to Remove the " I feel good!" feeling for Players who practiced months over months to "git gud". Now everyone feels bored.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Pretty much this, I remember mentioning on a forum that PvP needs more modes and maybe some high ilvl gear rewards again, and you know what I got? Someone saying that more PvP would make this game like WoW, and since Wow is toxic, FFXIV would become toxic.
They literally thought more PvP in FFXIV would make the entire game more toxic *face-palms*

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I think I've seen less toxicity in a couple thousand WoW Battlegrounds than in some fifty XIV Feast/Frontlines matches.

I think they skewed it to be TOO simple. We need some of our signature moves back (carnal chill, testudo, etc). I mostly played tank at that time so those are the ones I remember, but having those seemed to make every battle unique and a lot more engaging than just button-mashing.

I don't know why, but I expect in 5.0 we'll finally see some PVP changes.. or maybe pvp will go the way of Diadem, which I sincerely hope it doesn't :(

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think I've seen less toxicity in a couple thousand WoW Battlegrounds than in some fifty XIV Feast/Frontlines matches.

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I have a theory about that, people tend to get more toxic when losing, and since in frontlines, only one team wins, you get more toxicity from the 2 losing teams, (plus one team gets mad when another team completely ruin both their chances at winning, adding to toxicity. ) Wow BGs have more diversity, so it entertains players for longer, players who are having fun are less salty :P

Too much toxicity happens in Feast because even though your highest rating is counted at the end, you still lose points, and have to build those lost points back up - and you can have a string of losses which means sitting in queue THAT much longer with poor matchmaking... it's like an avalanche of really bad odds, so I can see why people get salty about losses there.

With frontline, losses don't matter *as much* because you can just queue up again - no harm done.