Concise Tank Balance Changes

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Reprisal and Haymaker are not direct analogs. Haymaker was a counter attack, but a poor choice of one in most pve party settings. It was a dps loss, the slow didn't apply to most enemies, and cost a GCD which lowers the feel of it being a counter-attack.

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We'll disagree here.

Retaliation was just another button and I frankly don't miss it in its old iteration. It is no different to me than current Dark Arts: Hit button, more potency. The damage reduction was just a bonus, but given the high uptime, we can just assume that all bosses moving forward are balanced with the assumption that current Retaliation will be used and prevent just as much damage. Same as we can assume all bosses moving forward are balanced around the lack of Strength and Int Down, and Damage Down from the Tank combos that are no longer present.

But from a flavor point it is basically Haymaker. It's a defense trigger with a defensive debuff.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Retaliation was just another button and I frankly don't miss it in its old iteration. It is no different to me than current Dark Arts: Hit button, more potency. The damage reduction was just a bonus, but given the high uptime, we can just assume that all bosses moving forward are balanced with the assumption that current Retaliation will be used and prevent just as much damage. Same as we can assume all bosses moving forward are balanced around the lack of Strength and Int Down, and Damage Down from the Tank combos that are no longer present.

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You can of course "balance content" (a claim I have never seen justified anywhere) by removing player choice and just build it in, but there were numerous examples of how you could use reprisal both defensively and offensively in HW, particularly in savage content, and that choice and planning was what gave the skill flavor and made it enjoyable. Was it perfect? No, but it did give dark knight flavor over the options on paladin and warrior.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But from a flavor point it is basically Haymaker. It's a defense trigger with a defensive debuff.

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Haymaker: Nearly ever used, when used has little effect.
Reprisal: used as often as possible unless there were strategic reasons to hold it.

Two abilities which can be generalized into a similar general statement doesn't make a similar flavor, just as food and dirt are both just an arrangement of atoms yet I prefer putting food in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Scourge in our current climate would be fire and forget.

Retaliation was the counter attack with a debuff.

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Symptom of larger issue: Overly costly Grit-swapping and reduced defensive spendability. The player climate will only streamline with time to avoiding tank stance. The more (ridiculously) costly the tank-stance, the less it can synergize with pacing elements.

Retaliation? I don't think that was a thing? In WoW, yes, but XIV? I don't think even 1.x had a skill by that name.
Pre-SB has historically had Reprisal, Shield Bash (mentioned above), and Haymaker, but the last was a weaponskill, not ability, and was only ever effectively used by Bard in the Thordan fight for the stronger-than-Heavy-Shot instant cast despite WM. Its only use by its native job was to, if the stars aligned just right on a rotation misaligned by exactly one GCD, to resync your stance cycle when both ToD and Fracture were already up, or to co-tank dungeons when no real-tank was present and the whole party was undergeared. Reprisal, on the other hand, stacked beautifully with SP and Virus, rivaling Divine Veil. Its debuff was NOT, outside of dungeon spam, an accidental byproduct. And it is the only one of the debuffs that affected bosses or even elites, i.e.... was a debuff.

I guess the greater question is, though... why prune them rather than doubling down on their benefits? Having only PS and SE consume DA, with PS being rarely used and SE always having the DA-less option of DL, made the rotation far smoother. The removal of Low Blow and Reprisal from the DRK repertoire homogenized its oGCD usage to the point that one of its most satisfying skills became a source of disgust. The removal of Reprisal largely excused the waste in DA-DD, and in later builds the removal of DD itself. With that then came the removal/transfer of DRK's core unique mechanic, defensive spending of a shared resource, now seen only --and arguably not as satisfyingly-- in PLD's Holy Spirit vs. Clemency.

Between Scourge, Reprisal, and Low Blow's reset mechanic, DRK excelled at focus-target damage in AoE fights. Its Scourge, baseline, hit for slightly more than a Fell Cleave, and it was one of only three melee DoTs (the only others being ToD, which had to be used in specific amounts not to desync rotation, and Mutilate, which was noticeably lower value) to require no pre-combos. That was a valid and enjoyable little niche. Now, we can only attempt to reach Warrior's shoulder in AoE and only when enter an AoE fight with full Blood and Mana with Blood Weapon and Delirium at the ready, without need of self-preservation, against 14+ targets for DA-Quietus spam. Now, I love that particular gimmick of BW-Quietus refunding itself. It feels mighty, even when hitting for a third of what WAR does, but... we didn't need to lose our cleave potential just to have middling mass AoE. In terms of relative strength, we were actually stronger even in mass AoE previously. We were gutted in one regard so we could be trimmed in another.

Black Blood, Bloodspiller, and Quietus were not mutually exclusive to any of that stuff. We didn't need the hotbar space reclaimed. Paladin certainly had no such reclamations. So... why were they removed? Integral, satisfying gameplay removed... for no dependent advantage.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Haymaker: Nearly ever used, when used has little effect.
Reprisal: used as often as possible unless there were strategic reasons to hold it.

Two abilities which can be generalized into a similar general statement doesn't make a similar flavor, just as food and dirt are both just an arrangement of atoms yet I prefer putting food in my mouth.

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Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.

A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same. Throw Dark Arts in three different places and change their icon via Macroicon for maximum nostalgia.

You want to make the Dark Knight unique and different, I am all for it, but you don't do that by taking three steps back and just plotting on the two fluff damage OGCds and the bleed that everyone had.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Between Scourge, Reprisal, and Low Blow's reset mechanic, DRK excelled at focus-target damage in AoE fights. Its Scourge, baseline, hit for slightly more than a Fell Cleave, and it was one of only three melee DoTs (the only others being ToD, which had to be used in specific amounts not to desync rotation, and Mutilate, which was noticeably lower value) to require no pre-combos. That was a valid and enjoyable little niche.

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Mutilate
Phelbotomize
Fracture
Touch of Death
Scourge

Paladin and - Oh, look, it was just paladin who was out there, for the Melee. I mean, none of the Ranged DPS jobs had a tacked on DoT that had no real bearing on the gameplay other than a maintenance dot-

Lead Shot.

I don't think "DoT that's stronger potency per GCD than a Combo Line" was the niche here. If anything, -not- having one of these was the bigger niche. That's just the standalone DoTs independent of a Job's mechanics, -and that's nearly half the Jobs- available at Heavensward. I didn't include Black Mage, Arcanist and the derivatives, or Bard because they all directly interact with their other mechanics.

And it seems unfair to include White Mage and Astro, as without them they have 1 other offensive spell. Hell, they might be the only two jobs who should have kept all the ranks of their DoTs, just so they have a bit more variety in what they press.

And again, when it comes to gameplay, this is opinion. This is why I said we'll disagree.

OGCD attacks are one of the biggest detriments in their implementation to job diversity. You know what the difference between Circle of Scorn and Elixir Field is? Animation and potency. They are otherwise identical in consideration and use. As often as possible, as many in buff windows as possible.

There is no weight to them compared to one another. Really, you could fold Contra Sixt and Fleche into each other and the Red Mage doesn't change at all.

This is the position I'm coming from. There is no difference between Elixir Field or Circle of Scorn to me in execution or consideration. There is no difference between Fleche or Gauss Round.

You know what sort of OGCDs -do- change things up?
Quick Reload. Do you hit it the moment it comes up, or do you wait to run your other ammo out so you can force another clean shot? The RNG nature of Machinist shots makes Quick Reload a minor but important decision in its use. Forcing another clean shot outweighs 25 potency, but only if done in a certain time frame.

Leylines. Commit, baby. 2000 IQ plays. See the future. Everything about getting a full Leylines off when you had no right to -feels fantastic-.

I hate Summoner, but respect where it's due. Trance feels fantastic, but that might be the Jelly Legs Black Mage speaking.

Any gap closer. Mobility feels good. Hitting things feels good. Hitting things while mobile feels -great-. Distance control is something I hope we see more of, and the Paladin not having an ally target variant will forever be a sore point for me.

And just for the counter intuitive one as well: Bard's fantastic because of one subtle aspect. It puts you into the beat, the songs it sings. How? Every time your poison procs you instinctively know the server tick timing. I can't tell you how badly I want that on Black Mage, but it's easy to lose, and who even watches DoTs, right? Bard's entirety is built around internal melody, and even though it's just a giant walking example of "Spam this !@#%ing OGCD", that one aspect alone is enough for it to get a pass. As stated: Respect where it's due. The OGCDs are directly related to that internal tune.

These are the types of abilities I want. Stuff that actively changes your approach, in that one moment.

Reprisal? "I either hit it now or within the action window"
Low Blow? "Oh it's up, I should hit it so I don't waste a proc"
Scourge? "There's less than 5 targets and this isn't on that guy".

These are the last on my list for what I'd want for Dark Knight. Good riddance to them.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same.

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No; no, you really couldn't.

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Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

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For functionality, sure. For gameplay? For identity?

For what is your reprisal if you are not attacked? Why is it better not to have synergy between skills, like a Parry chance increase to go with your parry-based counter attack?

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But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

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I'll agree that the longer duration deemphasized skill-gap. But there was still enough that some of us knew when to hold onto it even in more casual content as to need a healer GCD fewer, without losing a use within the fight.

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It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

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Bhavacakra is an oGCD, with a CD that could cause holding onto it to cost you a cast within a fight. Yet most NINs do not invariably blow it on CD; they wait for their raid buffs and/or TA window if they're near enough to sync unless they're party performance has proven that they need to cast it immediately to get that extra cast in within the fight.

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Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything.

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Now this I'll totally agree with. Yes.

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It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.

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It was 20% and not affect the rate of specials, making it useful only against casters and purely auto-attack based physical mobs. Because auto-attacks continue to recharge over downtime, its effect was practically nullified by/during stuns and/or kiting, both of which you'd want to use in the same situations at which Haymaker would become at all useful (though not much even then).

Prior to the SB changes, 170 potency was the lowest ePot of Monk's entire toolkit. Snap Punch was 180. True Strike was 190. Bootshine was an effective 225, diminishing with Crit. Even a Dragon Kick and two GCDs other than with Demolish or Twin Snakes and three GCDs (or two with the full ticks of Demolish) outperformed it. If a Monk wanted to use no-positional stanceless GCD, it'd be more likely to use Impulse Drive, if taken, unless short on TP, as it was more reliably available. Haymaker's use over alternatives becomes more likely when co-tanking dungeons as Monk, as you'll want to keep Keen Flurry, Skull Sunder, and maybe even Hawkeye if low on accuracy for frontals.

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A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

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It had a low-metric impact that made it more open to faith than to science. Nonetheless, some did use it for a time, science-ing it out, and we did have the data to prove that it scarcely mattered except against very particular mobs in very niche situations.

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This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

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Data. We can have difference in uses and difference in goals. Neither will change its optimal performance, which is objective.

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Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

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People do not project your low-effort play onto any and all DRK players. Both were often vital parts of my survival, and I used them accordingly. Please do not use false ultimatums; Bloodspiller, Quietus, and TBN are not mutually exclusive with the HW forms of Low Blow and Reprisal.

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I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

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Which hole is that, specifically? I miss the concept of Haymaker, too. But I'd miss its place in the actual game a whole more if it hit like a truck relative to its cost as it did in 1.x--to the point I could and did viably tank 8-man content--but I, too, like the idea of melee being able to take advantage of being in the thick of it, and if only for brief moments, take advantage of calling attention onto themselves.

But, as it was, it supplied nothing to that theme. I could tank as well, if not better, without it. TP as a resource was essentially "how little must have to use Haymaker to TP when I need it?" And the answer was usually... about twice in the longest of pulls. If I absolutely needed to skip a stance without DoTing, while holding enmity, I could Skull Sunder for an effective 465 enmity-potency. Unless I was low TP and riding a sufficient margin to keep the mob off the healer and ensure specials were aimed out, I could only afford not to use it, but I couldn't well afford to use it.

tl;dr: While it's true that implementation of Low Blow and Reprisal could have been better to ensure their advantages were more visible to a broader audience, you're heavily projecting your own negligence or misunderstanding and asking us to be content with the fallout of changes made in ways that favored your personal preferences. Expect others to be a bit peeved. (Unless, you're just defending the development decisions... for the sake of it... despite that, again, there is nothing mutually exclusive between what already worked in HW and the successful DRK additions of Stormblood.)

Could just be me, but I understood that post to mean "Don't copy over actions on to jobs simply for the purposes of giving that job a competitive equivalent." Which is very different from "Don't create an action that in any way resembles another action already in the game."

The former actually makes sense. Let's use the change to Shake it off in 4.2 as an example. The problem wasn't that Divine Veil was already in the game. If anything, I feel like Veil's design could be further improved on by taking notes from Shake it off, just like Shield Swipe was improved on by taking notes from HW Reprisal. If something works well from a design perspective, it makes sense to take note of it. The problem was that players went to the devs with Shake it off and said "We don't like this action, where is our Divine Veil equivalent?" The correct response to that is: "Why do you always need to have an equivalent?" The problem wasn't the end point. The problem was in the process.

The latter, of course, is so absurd that it's not even worth expending the effort of posting counter-examples. I think you actually made it harder for yourself by forcing yourself to prove that Reprisal was identical to Haymaker. The reason you had to omit mentioning Shield Swipe (which is the more obvious analogue than the obscure Haymaker) was because Swipe ended up being changed to become closer to Reprisal. The whole thing was an unnecessary stretch.

What was the easier response? Well, Reprisal, Delirium, and Scourge are all Actions. You press a button and something happens. Didn't other jobs have those first?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I don't think "DoT that's stronger potency per GCD than a Combo Line" was the niche here.

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Why... why are using quotes, for something the person you're responding to never said nor implied?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Its Scourge, baseline, hit for slightly more than a Fell Cleave.

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Fell Cleave. Y'know? That thing that was supposed to feel like a truck-sized hit? Felt really, really satisfying? I was not measuring Scourge against combo skills. Fell Cleave. Again? Fell Cleave.

EDIT: ...You even included the quote that said as much before strawmanning it. That's very disadvantageous to your strawman.

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You know what sort of OGCDs -do- change things up?
Quick Reload. Do you hit it the moment it comes up, or do you wait to run your other ammo out so you can force another clean shot? The RNG nature of Machinist shots makes Quick Reload a minor but important decision in its use. Forcing another clean shot outweighs 25 potency, but only if done in a certain time frame.

Leylines. Commit, baby. 2000 IQ plays. See the future. Everything about getting a full Leylines off when you had no right to -feels fantastic-.

I hate Summoner, but respect where it's due. Trance feels fantastic, but that might be the Jelly Legs Black Mage speaking.

Any gap closer. Mobility feels good. Hitting things feels good. Hitting things while mobile feels -great-. Distance control is something I hope we see more of, and the Paladin not having an ally target variant will forever be a sore point for me.

And just for the counter intuitive one as well: Bard's fantastic because of one subtle aspect. It puts you into the beat, the songs it sings. How? Every time your poison procs you instinctively know the server tick timing. I can't tell you how badly I want that on Black Mage, but it's easy to lose, and who even watches DoTs, right? Bard's entirety is built around internal melody, and even though it's just a giant walking example of "Spam this !@#%ing OGCD", that one aspect alone is enough for it to get a pass. As stated: Respect where it's due. The OGCDs are directly related to that internal tune.

These are the types of abilities I want. Stuff that actively changes your approach, in that one moment.

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So do I. I absolutely love those kinds of abilities.

But you're still applying a false ultimatum. None of those things added consequent to the removal of oGCDs that at least those posting to that effect here (or in so many other DRK threads made in complaint to such changes) DID already enjoy. Something with at least some benefit was removed. Nothing of benefit was added as a result of that. There were certainly no wonderful GCDs added in its place. Even the least direct potential merit, reduced button bloat, never panned out; by the end, it was increased. So why remove something of benefit without a compensating consequent benefit?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

What was the easier response? Well, Reprisal, Delirium, and Scourge are all Actions. You press a button and something happens. Didn't other jobs have those first?

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Shield Swipe's current iteration is actually my problem with OGCDs in general. "If it lit, hit." Shield Swipe in its old iteration was a stopgap, used primarily to manage TP with minimal potency loss (As it was less than the average). The pacify was useful, but like most other interesting effects, most things were and are immune to it.

That is why I used Haymaker. Shield Swipe just became the ability i want to see less of. Blind spam whenever it's up. I can't say "Well it should have been like Shield Swipe" because even Shield Swipe decided it didn't want to be Shield Swipe. Haymaker at least had the grace to bow out completely.

And it's both. We need action diversity, and with those diverse actions, they should hold up to one another. Though thinking on it, you technically could put Scourge back in and it'd be "unique" if only because all the others got removed too, but I don't find anything all that interesting about hitting a DoT every 30 seconds.

Butthat'sjustmyopinionman.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why... why are using quotes, for something the person you're responding to never said nor implied?

Fell Cleave. Y'know? That thing that was supposed to feel like a truck-sized hit? Felt really, really satisfying? I was not measuring Scourge against combo skills. Fell Cleave. Again? Fell Cleave.

So do I. I absolutely love those kinds of abilities.

Even the least direct potential merit, reduced button bloat, never panned out; by the end, it was increased. So why remove something of benefit without a compensating consequent benefit?

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"Hitting slightly more than a Fell Cleave" is also a strange qualifier. That's a weird niche, don't you think? That was my thought. That was how you wanted to qualify them. I instead chose mine. "DoTs stronger per GCD than a combo line" because that's what every other comparable, stand alone, sans mechanic non-combo DoT is.

They did compensate. But whether or not that compensation is wanted is another matter.

So I apparently have to say this again.

This is my opinion.

Reprisal in its current form is superior. It removed the inherent conflict of offense vs defense in a game that has been moving towards as much offense as possible. Separating the damage from Reprisal was the best decision to maintain the ability's purpose. (Debuff the enemy) The loss of an actual counter attack is notable, they are, almost universally, one of the Tank archetype's defining skills, but the actual impact it had on the kit was minimal. It was a shiny button. That's it. Its loss is no more or less than Rage of Halone's or Storm's Path debuff.

Low Blow ultimately fit this theme a bit better, and I will say I miss it more than Reprisal, because it required a little bit more attention. You didn't get a blinky light, and you had a very real chance of wasting it.

So my apologies. Thinking back on it, Low Blow was an engaging ability in Dungeons and made for quick-in-the-moment decisions. It fits my qualifier, so I'll rescind that Low Blow was 'just another button'.

Low Blow in raids I steadfastly hold my ground we aren't losing anything with its loss.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Shield Swipe's current iteration is actually my problem with OGCDs in general. "If it lit, hit." Shield Swipe in its old iteration was a stopgap, used primarily to manage TP with minimal potency loss (As it was less than the average). The pacify was useful, but like most other interesting effects, most things were and are immune to it.

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Agreed. I so badly wanted them to do just about anything else with Shield Swipe. I feel like it was so close to living up to at least something, especially in dungeoning. Even before, at a 2.4 GCD, it would allow you not to clip your Goring Blade (previously 24 seconds' duration), which was at least of mild use. Instead it really did become almost obligatory to hit it as soon as possible, as long as you wouldn't have to wait 25% of its CD to give it another use within Fight or Flight. (Admittedly, I did get a tiny little grin out of the third use in the FoF window if I got (the old version of) Spear.)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

And it's both. We need action diversity, and with those diverse actions, they should hold up to one another. Though thinking on it, you technically could put Scourge back in and it'd be "unique" if only because all the others got removed too, but I don't find anything all that interesting about hitting a DoT every 30 seconds.

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It's less that it was a DoT, and more that it hit for a ton. Think of it like Deathflare: It's pretty, it's huge damage, and it gave a niche advantage. (SMN briefly became the god of (wasteful) PvP burst and remained the god of AoE. And of most things caster-related. DRK, in turn, became the master of cleave-damage among tanks; Decimate was barely a bonus, and Fracture extremely limited, and Paladin's FoF-Goring Blade spread and 10 AoE pps off Circle of Scorn were no joke, exactly, Salted Earth, Scourge, and Dark Passenger let DRK revel in lower-count AoE.)

I think that is our primary disconnect.

When it comes to the tanks, I don't care much for the potency. I care about impact. Thinking on it further, that is the bigger sin with Reprisal compared to Low Blow. The impact isn't noticeable. It's a Dark Arts hit, and a damage debuff, but if the reduction doesn't save a healer GCD or prevent a death, it's not all that different from a Veil that breaks but you're still at 95% health.

I am an old mind tank. I'll play the tank they want me to here, but I wont' like it.

I won't lie and say big numbers don't get some childish glee (Black Mage For Life) but in this regard, Scourge fails. Because it's a DoT. It adds up to a big number, sure, but ultimately it's just a lot of little numbers.

Honestly, bring Scourge back as a 500 potency aoe Weaponskill that costs like 500 TP and I'll take that. If you found it fun to be a Cleave tank, then by golly, I'll sign off on that. The animation lines up for it, and it gives Dark Knights a TP dump between Blood and MP dumps.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"Hitting slightly more than a Fell Cleave" is also a strange qualifier. That's a weird niche, don't you think? That was my thought. That was how you wanted to qualify them. I instead chose mine. "DoTs stronger per GCD than a combo line" because that's what every other comparable, stand alone, sans mechanic non-combo DoT is.

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Okay. But that's not remotely the topic I was discussing, and I believe I made that clear. Fell Cleave was a sort of "gold standard" of damage to be dealt in a single GCD. It was iconic. I did not pick the analogy arbitrarily.

I'll admit, I could have been clearer when discussing the other open DoTs available to melee. My point was that few others are so often able to flex their use of their DoT. Touch of Death and Mutiliate are both low pps advantages, allowing them to be delayed a few GCDs if it means securing greater potency elsewhere in their rotation. Phlebotomize, being strong, but rigidly bookended by the rotation, could not be, which is why I did not include it. It is not, in practice, an open DoT. Once work has started on a focus target, it was part of the DRG's combos, firmly embedded in its rotational string (HT, ID, Db, CT, FC/WT; Pb, TT, VT, FT, FC/WT) until playing in low-count AoE with a GCD of 2.33 or less (for extra Geirskogul from 3x CT management and dropped Pb).

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

They did compensate. But whether or not that compensation is wanted is another matter.

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Mind the italics. Consequent. There was no consequent compensation. No part of what we got had anything to do with what was taken.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Low Blow in raids I steadfastly hold my ground we aren't losing anything with its loss.

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Fair enough. I personally liked its synergy with Anticipation and Dark Dance (whereas Bulwark could provide no such gameplay for the CD-bound Shield Swipe), but I'll wholly admit it turned into pure oGCD damage there, which was a bit disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I think that is our primary disconnect.

When it comes to the tanks, I don't care much for the potency. I care about impact. Thinking on it further, that is the bigger sin with Reprisal compared to Low Blow. The impact isn't noticeable. It's a Dark Arts hit, and a damage debuff, but if the reduction doesn't save a healer GCD or prevent a death, it's not all that different from a Veil that breaks but you're still at 95% health.

I am an old mind tank. I'll play the tank they want me to here, but I wont' like it.

I won't lie and say big numbers don't get some childish glee (Black Mage For Life) but in this regard, Scourge fails. Because it's a DoT. It adds up to a big number, sure, but ultimately it's just a lot of little numbers.

Honestly, bring Scourge back as a 500 potency aoe Weaponskill that costs like 500 TP and I'll take that. If you found it fun to be a Cleave tank, then by golly, I'll sign off on that. The animation lines up for it, and it gives Dark Knights a TP dump between Blood and MP dumps.

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Alright. Yep. I get that. I too prefer impact, but, for now, most of our impact will be through damage, so I'm taking what I can get, and finding enjoyment in the nuances of that where I can.

I'd like to see one of the tanks a lot MORE focussed on reactive procs. Reactive procs on being hit are one of the best ways of balancing the DPS output of a tank class, as you can load them up with high damage reactives to keep their DPS up when they're facing a boss, but then this DPS component gets taken away when they're just DPSing the back of a boss waiting to tank-swap in.

I'd like to bring up the design of the Guardian class in Lord of the Rings Online (at least how it was designed when I played it on release). I always felt like it was a very elegantly designed tank class as it solved a big problem with how you can have a tank hold threat when turtling but also do great damage solo without making DPS classes irrelevant. The Guardian was designed to use a Sword and Shield when tanking, and a two handed weapon when soloing. It had a large number of reactive skills that would only light up when you Blocked or Parried an attack.

The thing was, all of the "After a Block" skills were high threat, medium damage abilities that often used the shield to bash the target, whereas "After a Parry" skills were all high damage skills with no bonus threat. The choice was simple. When soloing you'd use a 2h weapon and your personal DPS was increased due to parrying attacks and using the parry reactive. However, you couldn't tank with a 2h weapon because so many threat-holding abilities needed you to be blocking with a shield. Also, because you needed to be attacked to proc a lot of these, you'd only hit your max dps output soloing when things attacked you. You couldn't take the DPS spot in a party because your damage would be lower when attacking things from the back. Conversely, when tanking you would be both blocking and parrying constantly, and it opened up the gameplay of "do i use a high threat block reactive or a high damage parry reactive".

A system like the above would work fantastically for a Paladin Oath redesign and a DRK grit redesign, as a possible alternative to feeling obliged to tank in Sword Oath or without Grit. A lot of people like the thematic idea of Sword Oath actually making the paladin put his shield on his back and use his sword in "hand-and-a-half" style, losing access to blocking and block reactives but gaining the sword oath procs. What if the Paladin was given enough high damage or high threat Block Reactives that they'd push out more dps tanking in Shield Oath than Sword, provided they were attacked frequently enough. You could even have entire combos of TP-efficient on-GCD skills that open up after blocks rather than just an off gcd push-when-it-lights-up button.

Parry Reactives for DRK just seem to be a thematic part of the class somehow... Reprisal may not have seemed interesting but it gave DRK an identity. If you wanted to get rid of Grit feeling like the crappy stance it is, make it simply an off-gcd toggle that only boosts threat, nothing else, or remove it entirely and make Blood Price generate threat when used. Then to make up the damage reduction loss, why not have a parry reactive that gives a personal damage reduction like Inner Beast. This would create an interesting dynamic where DRK doesnt necessarily have a "tank stance" - but when being attacked as long as it can force parry procs it can sustain an average damage reduction self buff. This would contrast with the Paladin's always-on Shield Oath reduction and the zero reduction for a Warrior that gets solved due to the "heal it back more easily" of Defiance.

Reactives are a GOOD THING, as long as they're done in an interesting and meaningful way, because they solve so many tank design issues:
- they translate defensive stats into offensive power. Block/parry more? Do more reactives. You could legitimately replace Tenacity with block/parry chance and have people want to use them.
- they allow tanks to do more damage when actually tanking so their design doesnt require them to output as much DPS as a DPS class on a static target
- they give variety and things that light up in a rotation that is always much simpler than DPS classes as tank kits have to be filled with "rarely used tools" like Sentinel and Divine Veil.

I 100% agree that the current implementation of Shield Swipe is boring. That doesnt mean that Reactives in general are bad. I think whilst Warrior has a really nice rotation that doesn't really need them, both PLD and DRK feel very clunky when it comes to swapping out of tank stance, and both of them feel thematically suited to being given 2-3 meaningful reactive skills each.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

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Your memory seems to be incorrect. I looked back in time at a physical fight on a 3:45 second fight I had 7 uses of reprisal, seems we parried more often than you think. We couldn’t parry magic, and that was a justifiable issue for that iteration of the ability, but dark mind only has a 1 minute cooldown for a reason. Of course, a number or people suggested fixes for this based on expansions of our current kit.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

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Sure, of course that 20 seconds can sometimes include autos, cleaves, and raid wides all of which can benefit from additional mitigation in particular for the party.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

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Unless holding it for 5 seconds stops a use it isn’t necessarily a dps loss, and if it helps heal through a critical time, or saves a dps from a hard hitting dot then why wouldn’t that be worth it? Of course you need to plan it out but blanketing it with holding it for any duration is a dps loss isn’t the picture either. Yes, most of the time it was up use it, but it felt good to weave and make that split second decision.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.
A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

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This whole paragraph seems to way over romanticize a skill that is even more useless with the addition of true north allowing you to do your entire rotation on an enemy facing you. However, since I see haymaker as only ever being useful in solo content which dies so fast it is hardly worth mentioning I’m just going to move on.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

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Again, I disagree that reacting to procs isn’t fun and adds an element to the class. Its why we have oGCDs, just pressing a GCD action every 2.5 seconds would get stale quickly. You are allowed to have your opinion, but what you are saying applies to every oGCD action but only seems to justify getting rid of certain ones, there has to be more.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

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Like how reprisal added fluff mitigation for a dark knight that also doubled as raid utility in physical fights? Like how Monk has true north as a role skill to specifically to ignore positionals?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same. Throw Dark Arts in three different places and change their icon via Macroicon for maximum nostalgia.

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Great lets do that, while we are at it lets also include the differences in potency, effects, durations, proc mechanics and resets. Might need some updates to bundle the SB additions as well to make it seems alike a cohesive whole.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You want to make the Dark Knight unique and different, I am all for it, but you don't do that by taking three steps back and just plotting on the two fluff damage OGCds and the bleed that everyone had.

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I agree, build on what was so that the job feels like an evolution rather than a tear down and rebuild. Stormblood should have brought additions and built on these systems rather than trashing them.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

This whole paragraph seems to way over romanticize a skill that is even more useless with the addition of true north allowing you to do your entire rotation on an enemy facing you. However, since I see haymaker as only ever being useful in solo content which dies so fast it is hardly worth mentioning I’m just going to move on.

Again, I disagree that reacting to procs isn’t fun and adds an element to the class. Its why we have oGCDs, just pressing a GCD action every 2.5 seconds would get stale quickly. You are allowed to have your opinion, but what you are saying applies to every oGCD action but only seems to justify getting rid of certain ones, there has to be more.

Like how reprisal added fluff mitigation for a dark knight that also doubled as raid utility in physical fights? Like how Monk has true north as a role skill to specifically to ignore positionals?

Great lets do that, while we are at it lets also include the differences in potency, effects, durations, proc mechanics and resets. Might need some updates to bundle the SB additions as well to make it seems alike a cohesive whole.

I agree, build on what was so that the job feels like an evolution rather than a tear down and rebuild. Stormblood should have brought additions and built on these systems rather than trashing them.

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1. Probably why Haymaker was ultimately removed. Unless I'm mistaken, we didn't have an iteration of True North until Stormblood. But I'll say that moving into leveling in Stormblood as a Black Mage, I would have given anything for that 20% slow they took away with Lethargy.

2. Purely reacting to procs itself is muscle memory. Procs that force thought are fun. Reprisal did not do this for me. Thundercloud does it for me because I'm working against multiple considerations. Shot procs do it for me as it inherently changes the value of Quick Reload, and to a lesser extent Reload. Low Blow in dungeons did this for me because you could literally make a Paladin blush at the sheer amount of damage you stop, for effectively no cost.

Low blow in raids, pfft. Hit the button. No considerations. Dark Arts by Gucci.
Reprisal? Hit the button. 7 times over 3:45 seconds means you basically slammed it on cooldown, with a variance of 5-6 seconds between proc and use. That could be "tactically holding it to use to ensure maximum coverage", or "I just didn't !#%ing parry that time."

3. Well, you still have that "Raid utility", only now it's weighted better. Also pfft. "I forgot how to punch this guy's face despite doing it for 15 seconds."

4. Make them interesting and sure.

5. Sure. I think we can all agree Tanks in general need a bit more to them. I'd prefer that direction go into active decision making than blindly smashing Low Blow whenever your 20% to parry procced the 20% chance to reset.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

1. Probably why Haymaker was ultimately removed. Unless I'm mistaken, we didn't have an iteration of True North until Stormblood.

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I believe that you are lamenting the loss of a skill which was replaced with something far better for the exact same reason.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But I'll say that moving into leveling in Stormblood as a Black Mage, I would have given anything for that 20% slow they took away with Lethargy.

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This has nothing to do with the conversation so far. Are you trying to say Lethargy is now an equivalent of reprisal as well?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

2. Purely reacting to procs itself is muscle memory. Procs that force thought are fun. Reprisal did not do this for me. Thundercloud does it for me because I'm working against multiple considerations. Shot procs do it for me as it inherently changes the value of Quick Reload, and to a lesser extent Reload. Low Blow in dungeons did this for me because you could literally make a Paladin blush at the sheer amount of damage you stop, for effectively no cost.

Low blow in raids, pfft. Hit the button. No considerations. Dark Arts by Gucci.
Reprisal? Hit the button. 7 times over 3:45 seconds means you basically slammed it on cooldown, with a variance of 5-6 seconds between proc and use. That could be "tactically holding it to use to ensure maximum coverage", or "I just didn't !#%ing parry that time."

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Way to completely ignore the context. You said parry procs din't happen because parry was a bad stat, I give evidence of being able to parry without slotting it in HW. You want timed uses of reprisal? See o6, o7, o11, and o12s. Also its 110 potency more than dark arts. Lets get rid of salted earth as well for exactly the same reasons you are giving. You aren't saying anything doesn't apply to nearly every oGCD. Work FoF into the GCD potency along with spirits within and requiscat, work the damage of inner release into the potency of Fell Cleave along with upheaval, take the potency off plunge so that it can be used as a gap closer, just tweak the potency of Dark Arts. Why is Dark Arts appealing? Why not take that away and just work the potency into the GCD.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

3. Well, you still have that "Raid utility", only now it's weighted better. Also pfft. "I forgot how to punch this guy's face despite doing it for 15 seconds."

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I would not agree that the 10% down on a tank buster, cleave, auto's and a raid wide is made up by tbn or the 5 seconds on current reprisal. You are making this claim and as I said earlier not providing any back up for it.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

4. Make them interesting and sure.

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Ah, now we have strings attached. Does it also have to be interesting to you or do the numerous people already asking for them back count enough to say they found them interesting? You are entitled to your opinion that they are not interesting, but enough with the continuous reposting of you not personally finding them interesting. We got it, and I'm positive others found it plenty interesting.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

Reactive procs on being hit are one of the best ways of balancing the DPS output of a tank class, as you can load them up with high damage reactives to keep their DPS up when they're facing a boss, but then this DPS component gets taken away when they're just DPSing the back of a boss waiting to tank-swap in.

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I strongly disagree. Players will inevitably lean towards maximizing the tanking uptime of the reactive tank, and how effective that strategy ends up being will have to depend upon the fight. Take O10S, for example. If the reactive tank happens to get more or less phases to tank, then its DPS will fluctuate accordingly; that's not balanced.

Reactive damage can be fun and interesting, but an over-reliance on it will inevitably cause major imbalance depending on the fight.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

I believe that you are lamenting the loss of a skill which was replaced with something far better for the exact same reason.

This has nothing to do with the conversation so far. Are you trying to say Lethargy is now an equivalent of reprisal as well?

Way to completely ignore the context. You said parry procs din't happen because parry was a bad stat, I give evidence of being able to parry without slotting it in HW. You want timed uses of reprisal? See o6, o7, o11, and o12s. Also its 110 potency more than dark arts. Lets get rid of salted earth as well for exactly the same reasons you are giving. You aren't saying anything doesn't apply to nearly every oGCD. Work FoF into the GCD potency along with spirits within and requiscat, work the damage of inner release into the potency of Fell Cleave along with upheaval, take the potency off plunge so that it can be used as a gap closer, just tweak the potency of Dark Arts. Why is Dark Arts appealing? Why not take that away and just work the potency into the GCD.

I would not agree that the 10% down on a tank buster, cleave, auto's and a raid wide is made up by tbn or the 5 seconds on current reprisal. You are making this claim and as I said earlier not providing any back up for it.

Ah, now we have strings attached. Does it also have to be interesting to you or do the numerous people already asking for them back count enough to say they found them interesting? You are entitled to your opinion that they are not interesting, but enough with the continuous reposting of you not personally finding them interesting. We got it, and I'm positive others found it plenty interesting.

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1. Yes, I'm lamenting the loss of a counter attack with gameplay weight behind it. Just like I lament prior Shield Swipe. It's almost like these two actions represent a category we need more (Actions that take some thought) while old Reprisal and New Shield Swipe represent what we need less of (It lit, hit).

2. !@#% in stormblood !#@%ing hurt. A 20% slow is significant when you aren't plodding around in plate armor. I used lethargy because I -didn't- MSQ stormblood as monk, so the amount of my face being punched was on -Black Mage-, but one can easily extrapolate that desire to wanting something to punch you in the face less to another Job that had an appropriate response to said face punching.

3. I said parry procs aren't guaranteed to happen. Which is why you -likely hit the ability the moment it flashes up-. At most waiting until the end of the current timer. Which based on the amount of times you hit the ability in the time frame given is likely what happened. "Context."

4. Given the absurdly high uptime on it, we can move forward in Stormblood knowing that encounters are designed around the lack of near permanent 10% reductions. Reprisal in its current form is superior as it no longer relies upon parries to activate, it is useful against all damage, and it can be tailored specifically around where your party struggles most.

5. Salted earth functions in an enemy centric fashion that Leylines does to Black Mage. It creates a specific area you play around and work with. The target's movement and mechanics that in turn force you to move play around this -gameplay-, that this zone you have thrown down is of interest to you for whatever reason, and -adds consideration-. It is entirely possible to miss some or all the benefit by hitting Salted earth the moment it comes up.

Reprisal is "It's lit, hit". Your own anecdote shows that. Even if you missed a tank buster, or a raid wide, or a high auto attack segment, odds are as long as you hit the button you gained almost all the benefit regardless of the timing.

You could remove the Potency of Plunge, but Plunge itself remains an integral and interesting part of the Kit. It can be utilized as a gap closer and in other ways to effectively cheat Mechanics that others can not. Now if you said "remove plunge" we'll !@#%ing riot.

Reprisal is "It's lit, hit."

FoFi and Reqqy Cat can be removed without any real detriment, sure, but that's more equitable to Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and otherwise any other % increase than it is to Dark Arts. They really just serve as giant signs saying "Do this now." and if they didn't exist, Paladin would still play the same, just like Dragoon and Bard would play the same sans Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes.

Darks Arts by contrast is ultimately part of the Dark Knight's resource management game. FoFi is not. I personally wouldn't say Reqqy Cat is of the same importance to Paladin's, mainly because if Reqqy Cat didn't exist, you'd still cast the same number of Holy Spirits, just at different times. (But probably still all in Trick Attack windows so what really changed)

Reprisal? "It's lit, hit."

Here's the thing. -I don't find Dark Arts spam appealing-. I just don't see the merit in moving the button press two slots over and calling it something else. This is at best a lateral shift and at worst regression.

6. This discussion is between you and me, so those other people should not factor in. Because "Numerous people" who do and numerous people who don't want them back exist here, as well as numerous people who don't care one lick one way or the other, and numerous people who didn't like HW Dark Knight, and numerous people who did, so on and so forth.

So for you, you don't need all that. You think it was interesting enough on its own. That's your opinion. I disagree with it.

I need more than that. I don't think it was interesting enough on its own. That's my opinion. You (and others) disagree with it.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

1. Yes, I'm lamenting the loss of a counter attack with gameplay weight behind it. Just like I lament prior Shield Swipe. It's almost like these two actions represent a category we need more (Actions that take some thought) while old Reprisal and New Shield Swipe represent what we need less of (It lit, hit).

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Haymaker had 0 weight behind it and you are once again over exaggerating this skill. I quickly polled a few people who main monk, of the 10 people I asked 7 I had to remind what it was, 2 of the remaining thought it was still in the game but didn’t realize because they wouldn’t put it on their hot bar, and 1 went as far to say oh yeah, that trash move that was removed.
Real engaging gameplay. I’m sure we could make a monk post on a dps forum and see how many people want the move back, I’m almost positive no one misses it besides you.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

2. !@#% in stormblood !#@%ing hurt. A 20% slow is significant when you aren't plodding around in plate armor. I used lethargy because I -didn't- MSQ stormblood as monk, so the amount of my face being punched was on -Black Mage-, but one can easily extrapolate that desire to wanting something to punch you in the face less to another Job that had an appropriate response to said face punching.

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I have 4 alts all of which have made it through stormblood. No, it doesn’t hurt, and its really easy to get through all the content. Eureka you can make a case for things hitting hard and needing to get away. Yet another exaggeration.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

3. I said parry procs aren't guaranteed to happen. Which is why you -likely hit the ability the moment it flashes up-. At most waiting until the end of the current timer. Which based on the amount of times you hit the ability in the time frame given is likely what happened. "Context."

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The context isn’t what you make it up to be, its what was said. Since you seem to forget what you say so easily here is the quote I refer to.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

… especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

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I used an example of getting 7 reprisals in a 3:45 second to dismiss this idea that it was difficult to get the majority of them. The point of this is not to prove that it is not just a “use it skill” it is to show that it is way more reliable than you are making it out to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

4. Given the absurdly high uptime on it, we can move forward in Stormblood knowing that encounters are designed around the lack of near permanent 10% reductions. Reprisal in its current form is superior as it no longer relies upon parries to activate, it is useful against all damage, and it can be tailored specifically around where your party struggles most.

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A good part of this is useless information: (1) you could always try to save it to put it up for where you needed it and (2) it was always useful against all damage so neither of these points are meaningless except as fluff. Current reprisal is good because you don’t need to set it up or plan for it in advance. You can use it, it is convenient and easy. That’s it. Old reprisal covered more damage when used properly.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

5. Salted earth functions in an enemy centric fashion that Leylines does to Black Mage. It creates a specific area you play around and work with. The target's movement and mechanics that in turn force you to move play around this -gameplay-, that this zone you have thrown down is of interest to you for whatever reason, and -adds consideration-. It is entirely possible to miss some or all the benefit by hitting Salted earth the moment it comes up.

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Ah so if the gimmick is keep the enemy in the circle it is engaging, if it is work out where to plan to use it and work to set it up then its useless. I find it ironic that you don’t see how arbitrary your lines are.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Reprisal is "It's lit, hit". Your own anecdote shows that. Even if you missed a tank buster, or a raid wide, or a high auto attack segment, odds are as long as you hit the button you gained almost all the benefit regardless of the timing.

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Again, my point was to refute your idea that parry procs were somehow rare and we were unlikely to get the proc. There are multiple examples of turns where you would consider delaying your reprisal set up to line up with a mechanic or 1 minute and 3 minute buffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

FoFi and Reqqy Cat can be removed without any real detriment, sure, but that's more equitable to Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and otherwise any other % increase than it is to Dark Arts. They really just serve as giant signs saying "Do this now." and if they didn't exist, Paladin would still play the same, just like Dragoon and Bard would play the same sans Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes.

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The point being that pressing and timing these buttons in play is enjoyable to people. You might not like it as you have said multiple times but your logic will essentially reduce the game to removing all oGCD actions that aren’t “push now” buttons. While fine the GCD will come out as slow boring and get stale quick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Darks Arts by contrast is ultimately part of the Dark Knight's resource management game. FoFi is not. I personally wouldn't say Reqqy Cat is of the same importance to Paladin's, mainly because if Reqqy Cat didn't exist, you'd still cast the same number of Holy Spirits, just at different times. (But probably still all in Trick Attack windows so what really changed)

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More arbitrary lines. There is no reason dark knightneeds to manage mp. We manage mp simply by the design of the game, this could just as easily be removed and replaced with anything else much like blood is spent through mostly GCD actions, the only exception being delirium.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Here's the thing. -I don't find Dark Arts spam appealing-. I just don't see the merit in moving the button press two slots over and calling it something else. This is at best a lateral shift and at worst regression.

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(1)Broke up spam of dark arts (2) had other uses besides damage (3) did involve some planning and shifting at higher levels of play. Just because you didn’t doesn’t mean others did the same.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

6. This discussion is between you and me, so those other people should not factor in. Because "Numerous people" who do and numerous people who don't want them back exist here, as well as numerous people who don't care one lick one way or the other, and numerous people who didn't like HW Dark Knight, and numerous people who did, so on and so forth.

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Yes, and yet you continue to come back with just flat wrong information and exaggerations of the usefulness of abilities like haymaker.
First we couldn’t have reprisal because its just a haymaker clone (it isn’t and even if it was it was done better than haymaker in terms of actually being put to use).
Then it was just bonus fluff built into the encounter damage formula and so made useless. A fact that you provide no back up for.
Now it’s a “just use immediately” button that had no other purposes. I point out that it does have other uses (holding briefly to time the hit, delaying to line up with buff windows, and oGCD enmity when needed) and that goes ignored. Its not just about opinions, opinions should be based on something.

All of these reasons boil down to “I don’t like it because I used it this way”, perhaps the issue wasn’t the skill, perhaps it was the way it was being used. Personally, I enjoy the multipurpose tool, and I enjoyed trying to time may abilities to fit into certain windows that would have more impact on my raid with reprisal. I enjoyed the not knowing it would proc and having to actively look for procs and resets. I enjoyed HW dark knight. I would like to see a class like it make a comeback. HW dark knight didn’t have super hard hitting windows, what it had was multiple little hits that ended up adding up, and that was a playstyle I enjoyed. Much like Monks enjoy that fast nature of GL, that play style of multiple oGCD actions lighting up and resetting at different times was entertaining and even at times felt chaotic as I tried to double weave.

You are allowed to want something different, you are allowed to want something streamlined to just be 1 button spamming. Others are allowed to ask for the old style to be returned. Yes, they are often times mutually exclusive. But lets at least not pretend its because haymaker is the only viable counter attack with debuff allowed in the game and it is a tragedy that its been removed.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

You are allowed to want something different, you are allowed to want something streamlined to just be 1 button spamming. Others are allowed to ask for the old style to be returned. Yes, they are often times mutually exclusive. But lets at least not pretend its because haymaker is the only viable counter attack with debuff allowed in the game and it is a tragedy that its been removed.

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That's the point of a discussion. You say a thing, I say a thing. At the end, the end goal of that discussion varies. I like the discussion. It is interesting to see how people view the same aspect of the game. I go in wanting to hear what you have to say and if you do change my mind, victory for you, victory for me. I learnt a thing.

The tragedy isn't that it was Haymaker that got removed. The tragedy is that it was actions -like- Haymaker that got removed. Like Shield Swipe got changed. Beneath all the pomp and performance, FF14's selection of Actions the players use is extremely limited, despite the fact that the engine is capable of much more.

I care about actions that give additional options. That change what you can do, that force considerations onto the field, that give you control. Was old shield swipe spammed every time? No. Because you didn't always need it. Using it when it was available was a choice you made, in place of another GCD, that in turn was based on what you needed, and that had a few considerations as well.

What about Shield Swipe now? Could you say it holds that same weight? Is it a better ability, or a more effective one? Because in my opinion, you could fold that potency into Circle of Scorn or Spirits Within and get rid of Shield Swipe, and Paladin wouldn't lose anything worth noting other than a neat animation and a Gladiator capstone quest reward.

That is the state of Reactives, what little of them remain. That if they were gone, the Job they were attached to lost nothing. You could have made Haymaker worthwhile again, you could have Shield Swipe really feel like this bracing shunt-and-bash counter attack, but no. One got removed, one got changed to Reprisal, and Reprisal went the way of the dinosaurs, which is basically just paving the way for every other Reactive currently in game.

That's the tragedy.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

That's the point of a discussion. You say a thing, I say a thing. At the end, the end goal of that discussion varies. I like the discussion. It is interesting to see how people view the same aspect of the game. I go in wanting to hear what you have to say and if you do change my mind, victory for you, victory for me. I learnt a thing.

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Usually when engaging in discussion the thing I say is related to the thing you say, and the thing you say next is related to that. Sometimes new elements are added in, but typically the discussion evolves from those points. This is not evolving.

You say a thing like "the damage debuff from reprisal is balanced by changing the equation" to which I might respond like "I don't see this justified anywhere" to which I recieved the reply "lethargy is something I miss on blm".

Or you might say "Old Reprisal was a hit when lit skill" to which I might respond "Delaying it strategically was actually a thing for raid buff windows as well as high damage periods" to which I'm only recieving the reply "Hit when lit".

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The tragedy isn't that it was Haymaker that got removed.

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Reprisal being a "haymaker clone" is literally what started this.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The tragedy is that it was actions -like- Haymaker that got removed. Like Shield Swipe got changed. Beneath all the pomp and performance, FF14's selection of Actions the players use is extremely limited, despite the fact that the engine is capable of much more.

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This is a point which has evolved from the post history. I'm going to make a conjecture that what you felt good about with shield swipe and the rare use of haymaker wasn't that it is a skill which you used rarely, I instead have a feeling your pleasure from using these skills actually comes from recognizing niche situations in which using these abilities was actually beneficial. And as I have tried to repeat several times, reprisal had those weird situations as well, but rather than using a rarely used skill a skillful use of reprisal was recognizing when it could be used in more efficient ways than hit it when lit.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I care about actions that give additional options.

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See above point.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

That change what you can do, that force considerations onto the field, that give you control. Was old shield swipe spammed every time? No. Because you didn't always need it. Using it when it was available was a choice you made, in place of another GCD, that in turn was based on what you needed, and that had a few considerations as well.

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Using shield swipe to save on TP or extend goring blade was not all that interesting. The debuff was useless in most cases, the increased enmity was unwelcome since back then part of our dps combo was in an enmity combo, and it was not a potency gain unless extending goring or preventing you from running dry on TP. It is a button which took up room, but was infrequently touched but needed to be kept visible.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

What about Shield Swipe now? Could you say it holds that same weight? Is it a better ability, or a more effective one? Because in my opinion, you could fold that potency into Circle of Scorn or Spirits Within and get rid of Shield Swipe, and Paladin wouldn't lose anything worth noting other than a neat animation and a Gladiator capstone quest reward.

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Yes, its like old reprisal except less potent, up more frequently, and presents a reward for using sheltron effectively to mitigate damage. However, it presents less decision making than reprisal since it has just 1 function. This argument also folds back into that this also applies to spirits with in which could easily be folded into circle damage as well. Removing more and more oGCDs will make the rotation stale. And on paladin, which is a fairly rigid class, I find random shield swipes to be a nice touch of randomness even if very small.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

That is the state of Reactives, what little of them remain. That if they were gone, the Job they were attached to lost nothing. You could have made Haymaker worthwhile again, you could have Shield Swipe really feel like this bracing shunt-and-bash counter attack, but no. One got removed, one got changed to Reprisal, and Reprisal went the way of the dinosaurs, which is basically just paving the way for every other Reactive currently in game.

That's the tragedy.

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This feels like a slippery slope argument. I don't see reactives being removed from the game.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

This is a point which has evolved from the post history. I'm going to make a conjecture that what you felt good about with shield swipe and the rare use of haymaker wasn't that it is a skill which you used rarely, I instead have a feeling your pleasure from using these skills actually comes from recognizing niche situations in which using these abilities was actually beneficial.

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That conjecture isn't wrong. Conflicting priority on what action to use and how to maximize use is what makes the otherwise bland-at-a-glance Black Mage an actively engaging job.

Where I disagree is where you paint Reprisal as having similar considerations. Where we got a disconnect is where I mentioned parry rates. It's not that you -don't parry. It's that you can't guarantee your parries. Because you cannot guarantee your parries, this forces your hand regarding Reprisal. Because it has no relative cost (It's OGCD), because it's primarily an offensive tool (Substantial potency), and because the debuff is just so absurdly long, the window of error is minimal and its opportunity cost nonexistent.

It's not that Reprisal didn't have optimal use, it's that the difference between optimal use and just plain use was small. Practically indistinguishable due to variance in when it was available. (Cuz parry)

It would be an identical tool as a literal counter attack button. Push button, parry and strike back the next attack in 3 seconds. 30 second cooldown, 220 potency, the whole shebang. The exact same effect, but the window is smaller, and the control is all yours.

I'd literally have no problem with that. A little extra oomph for Dark Knights, a thematic defensive option comparable to both Shelltron (Defend) and Inner Beast (Ignore), and active use. I couldn't ask for more, and it's really just the simplest of changes, putting the control and onus of activation onto the player instead of the dice.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

This feels like a slippery slope argument. I don't see reactives being removed from the game.

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I 100% see shield swipe being changed again or being removed.

I see Seigan being removed as it is, because throwing the threat reduction on Merciful Eyes removed any potential want to use Seigan.

And...that's all the reactives as we've been defining them. The Samurai has more reactives than the Tanks combined.

We could potentially add Riddle of Earth, Eye for an Eye, and Arms Length to the list, but those really aren't in the same field. They have a reactive effect, but aren't "reactives".

Why not give DRK the ability to give the entire party a lifesteal buff?

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Originally Posted by Daigosama

Why not give DRK the ability to give the entire party a lifesteal buff?

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Because it won't save the party from a super raidwide attack.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

That conjecture isn't wrong. Conflicting priority on what action to use and how to maximize use is what makes the otherwise bland-at-a-glance Black Mage an actively engaging job.

Where I disagree is where you paint Reprisal as having similar considerations. Where we got a disconnect is where I mentioned parry rates. It's not that you -don't parry. It's that you can't guarantee your parries. Because you cannot guarantee your parries, this forces your hand regarding Reprisal. Because it has no relative cost (It's OGCD), because it's primarily an offensive tool (Substantial potency), and because the debuff is just so absurdly long, the window of error is minimal and its opportunity cost nonexistent.

It's not that Reprisal didn't have optimal use, it's that the difference between optimal use and just plain use was small. Practically indistinguishable due to variance in when it was available. (Cuz parry)

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I think this is why you'd find so many posts asking for a modified DA-DD back in Heavensward. The dodge mechanic was strong but counterproductive. Without Reprisal and Low Blow being modified to also use dodge chance, which would then synergize perhaps overly powerfully with DA-AD and DA-DP together, and Blood Price gaining from attacks attempted against you rather than solely attacks to hit you (still better than Monk's Riddle of Earth, which cripples Monk dps whenever a SCH shield causes you not to take damage, because that condition is all so sensible...), it could actively hurt survival. At a 30% parry buff that could be stacked with cross-classes Awareness, baseline Dark Dance was still decently strong and was ripe for improvements to offset the more extreme or emergency option of the anti-synergetic DA-DD, but, easier changes being easier changes, instead it was left flawed until just being removed outright.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Because it won't save the party from a super raidwide attack.

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You mean like Charybdis + White Hole? Heartless Archangel? Earthquake + Accretion?

Besides, anything that has the potential to save healer GCDs is useful. It's all about finding the minimum amount of effort to hit the required HP threshold.

DRK would need to have some sort of group mitigation. Group lifesteal would not work.

The point of veil and shake is that they mitigate damage from big group heavy hitting attacks.

I would think that a lvl 70+ skill in the expansion will give us a group mitigation tool for DRK. Otherwise they would have failed in the rework.

What about soaking up some or all damage? Like cover but party wide.

How is a goddamn balance thread that I posted at 3 AM over a month ago still active. There have gotta be better threads.

I personally think that changing how each tank works is necessary. Right now it feels a lot like we can just take any two tanks we want and just have them do the exact thing. It creates a sense of monotony and the jobs feel very similar despite their differences. In my opinion, making it so that they at least have their core component be different should be the first step. After that we can talk on balance. Otherwise it's pretty much just pasting numbers and abilities from other classes. This is also a current problem with healers and Astrologian's identity crisis.