Concise Tank Balance Changes

[DaulBan]

First things first: Remove Shake and Veil.

Unless you're in early prog or are speedkilling at high levels you probably don't use these abilities optimally. They either A) save someone's life or B) give you limit gauge. In that way they give damage or save GCDs (which in turn become damage). You will still clear content just as easily with healer and party mitigation. If you really need it paladin can keep Passage.

They removed reprisal and path, they didn't need to bring them back for SB in new forms.

Second things second: WAR sustained DPS nerfs.

Itemization means DRK and PLD are very close to WAR in terms of DPS right now, but under most circumstances (ie. the past two tiers) the job has been squarely ahead of both. This is mostly due to how easy it is to play and do decently with (imo) but also has to do with the fact that its burst allows it to compete in fights with minimal penalty for not being able to attack. To even this out in low uptime fights; Path/Eye to 260, Maim to 190.

Slashing stays.

Not a change, but notable for it's remaining. With limited slashing WAR maintains some of its use thanks to bringing slashing to parties that are otherwise occupied with other DPS. In a MNK/DRG melee comp WAR is much better than either DRK or PLD just for buffing the other tank. It would be less powerful in other situations, but you gotta roll with the punches.

Crits go away.

Incoming crits, that is. Notably this is rather good for WAR because that would mean that Raw wouldn't have any drawback, and while this is a straight buff to the job it will probably need to maintain its edges when it's third highest DPS.

That's it. Objective? Bring DRK/PLD DPS squarely over WAR and give you a reason to keep bringing it. Slashing alone has value, but with its better mitigation toolkit than other tanks (primarily through Holmgang) and burst opportunities it still give it some reasonable advantages.

Why? The playerbase gravitates to more or less easy jobs, as well as strong ones (or ones they think are strong). WAR would still see a strong player count due to party constraints and how easy it is, with the latter possibly being the greatest factor. DRK could see a rise just from people playing it over WAR in parties with SAM or NIN, which could mean it would see a fair uptick in higher-end parties, while WAR might be the more popular casual pick.

[Mirch]

i agree, totally, nice one

[Reynhart]

They removed reprisal and path, they didn't need to bring them back for SB in new forms.

The didnt removed Reprsal, they spread it to all tanks. As for path, the reason why it was removed is that some people found too tiresome the concept of maintaining a constant debuff. That's also why Delirium was removed and RoH was changed.

In the end, party mitigation is a nice thing, it bring utility. It's just not very well balanced between the three tanks for now.

For the WAR DPS, yes, it would be a good thing. Having the highest burst can be very important for skipping some mechanics so the drawback of that should be a less sustained DPS.

[Lyth]

There is no justification in retaining slashing and piercing. These are flat, 100% uptime buffs that penalise you for not bringing certain jobs. They do not influence gameplay decision-making. They force your team to always bring certain jobs, which restricts diversity. The reason why effects like INT down and Storm's Path were removed was based on the same reasoning. If you're going to force every party to bring either a WAR or a NIN, then you might as well force every party to bring either a DRK or a MNK. That was, and still is, bad design.

Slashing isn't the only reason you want to bring a WAR to a party, nor should it be (if it is, the job has serious problems). WAR has phenomenal enmity generation and burst. It has the highest mobility and the most flexible stance swaps. Even if you restricted WAR's strengths to these specific areas, it still would be a valuable pick on most tiers without actively restricting groups who want to run PLD/DRK.

Veil and Shake are not problems in themselves. Veil was present throughout Heavensward, and wasn't nearly as much of a gamechanger that Path and Reprisal were. You're comparing a two minute recast buff to nearly 100% uptime. If anything, I'd like to see Veil function more like how Shake presently does (barrier shield which doesn't require a heal to trigger and also applies to yourself), and I'd like to see Shake apply temporary HP instead, in line with WAR's other thematic abilities (how does a non-spellcaster create a magical barrier that absorbs damage?) But the limit-gauge generation associated with Veil and Shake needs to be removed. These abilities were intended as a defensive buff, not an offensive tool.

Anything that forces you to bring a specific job is intrinsically problematic. Raid dps buffs are one example of this. 100% uptime buffs are another. No tank should have them. If you want to see variety in tank comps, differences between tanks should feel situational nice to have, without feeling essential.

[whiskeybravo]

Is there more?

If not, you should consider changing the title to Concise Warrior Nerfs

As of this morning there are 2,000 more PLD logs than WAR. DRK is considerably behind by 20,000. (looking at total amounts, not turn specific)

PLD has the lowest DPS but the highest amount of logs. You suggesting increasing PLD DPS will increase their numbers? They are already the highest...

Again, looking at the entire zone, max DPS for 75th DRK is only 62 DPS behind WAR. 62 DPS

You are suggesting that by increasing DRK DPS, while simultaneously nerfing WAR and to a lesser degree PLD too, that somehow 10-15,000 more players are going to flock to DRK/PLD comps for that sick 62 DPS. I'll forget about the fact you haven't mentioned any changes to DRK, so it's still going to have the same playability problems that exist now for many people.

Which leads to my overall point, I still find myself cringing after reading threads like this. Instead of making the tanks better all around with respect to one another, all people can think of is just cutting off Warrior's limbs to make the other tanks more desirable.

[shao32]

The highest numbers of parsers don't represent job effectiveness, swords are more popular than axes, in HW DRK was the most used tank despite WAR was the broken one, popularity of the jobs depend more of aesthetics and gameplay when are comparable in performance.

On the other extreme the lowest played jobs are always the ones who suffer from gameplay/balance problems, WAR is the strongers tank atm but not all love axes and PLD can compete against then with a most popular weapon.

[whiskeybravo]

Those statements are full of contradictions. First, I didn't mention numbers to illustrate any indication of effectiveness. It simply is what it is - the indicators we have access to would suggest PLD is the most played tank job and DRK is the least played tank job. It's kind of frivolous to suggest PLD numbers need to be boosted when they are already the highest played - DESPITE being the lowest DPS among the tanks. So let's nerf Warrior DPS because - clearly - the lowest DPS tank will be the least played. Yes, you could attribute some percentage of PLD having the highest number of players to job aesthetics (especially for the game overall). But, in regards to raiding groups, let's be real here - it has very, very little to do with aesthetics - and everything to do with how much versatility they bring to a raid group.

As for HW DRK, you seem to be discounting the fact the PLD was complete trash. Just like we have either PLD/WAR or PLD/DRK now, most groups had a DRK instead of a PLD, resulting in overall higher play numbers. DRK was actually in a good spot both with both performance and playability. But let's blame Warrior for taking away their advantage in mitigating Magic Damage and stealing Reprisal, utterly guttering their unique advantage as a tank job.

You know, it might be worthwhile to check up on the MCH complaint threads. Not a single one suggests nerfing Bard, even though it outclasses MCH in nearly every category. No, they want SE to fix MCH and make it fun to play again, make it compete effectively with Bard. It's too difficult to take this approach with DRK?

[shao32]

Don't being played as much as a PLD don't give WAR the right to have the status they have or avoid nerfs, popularity and balance are 2 different things, PLD have clear disaventages compared to WAR who Excell on every enviroment.
Popularity of a job depend of many things, gameplay, lore, aesthetic and impact on combat.

In resume when several jobs have equal performance and good gameplay feelings the pick rate are highly impacted by personal preferences and aesthetics like WAR and PLD now despite WAR being superior in everything but the things that PLD are inferior are pretty much irrelevant on raid or can be fixed with planification.
On the other hand why a popular job like DRK or MCH in HW fall this expansion? For aesthetics? No, for performance issues and low impact in combat, when a job have such low pick rates compared to they conterparts are always for performance issues and need being fixed.
And if a job who is cleary superior on almost everything is not pick like his brother it's not bcs the other is better, it's bcs ppl don't like the rampage axe madman style.

[whiskeybravo]

PLD has one clear disadvantage compared to WAR - that's the GCD & Mana cost associated with swapping stances. Anything else is a murky debate.

Furthermore, many people on this very same forum argued that PLD DPS should have been lower given all their utility. People are making the same argument that DRK DPS should be highest because they have the least utility. You can't have it both ways. Asking to make WAR the lowest DPS tank is a direct contradiction to what the community claims is balance (utility vs dps). It doesn't bother me in the slightest if they decide to increase DRK DPS - what does bother me is the sentiment that WAR should be lowest when it's obvious the PLD should be lowest based on the sheer amount of utility they possess. Sorry, gotta roll with the punches.

No one is claiming WAR has the "right" to the status they current have. That's SE's fault mainly. No warrior was advocating for Rampart or Reprisal. Only 1 Warrior advocated we should should have automatic direct critical hits. Shake it off was a trash high-level ability, and most people wanted it to simply act like an AOE thrill of battle (which we already have from Bard, anyways). SE gave us rampart. SE gave us Reprisal. SE gave us and AoE Shield. Direct Critical hits. One button gameplay. None of that was advocated for, it is what it is.

Some one, or some group of people, at SE decided that DRK needed no unique identity as a tank. They didn't need an exclusive raidwide mitigation ability. That they didn't need to niche at mitigating magic damage. That they didn't need an interesting proc based or energy draining mechanic. Nah, clearly it's all Warrior's fault.

[shao32]

i will argue PLD have more disaventage compared that WAR like aoe department, selfsutain/dps cost and MT opener apart of the tank stance swap as you point.

Which leads to my overall point, I still find myself cringing after reading threads like this. Instead of making the tanks better all around with respect to one another, all people can think of is just cutting off Warrior's limbs to make the other tanks more desirable.

most of my post was around this in particular, i dint say daulban was correct in any moment either.

the most hilarious thing about this is DRKs tried this all this expansion and whe be taking down by mostly main WARs all the time with "DRK is fine" (i dont say you are one of them) and as many times lyth as point there is no posible balance without nerfing WAR.

balance come first, popularity and pick rate come second, Daulban point that WAR is a must have due his toolkit with have nothing to do with PLD popularity and pick rate and he look for equal niches (indepent of how good or bad are his suggestions)for all since WAR domain all the fields.

WARs dint ask for rampart i grant you that, but all the rest they get was asked and granted bcs SE favoritism.