State of the Game: Personal Player Feedback and Stats on PvE Content [No Parsers Plz]

I’d like to see an in game parser but one that shows the player dps ONLY. I don’t want to know how the other players did. It’s not my job to judge them. Parsing in general is beginning to get out of hand. I had so whining tank parsing the EX roulette( yes and FN EX roulette) and getting snobby with people, specificity me for calling him out, about the dps because he couldn’t get his run done in 5 mins, which had nothing to do with anyone’s dps

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derio

The real question is how can this not be used as a tool to harass people?

I dont see any way it could not be.

---

Link your kill achievement in party or kick.
Link your primal weapon in party or kick.
Link a kill token in party or kick.
Link your wind-up Louisoix or kick.
Mount your Air Force or kick.
I can also branch out a little further and add silly ones such as trade blocking teleports, locking people out of their own FC house or even just being annoying via /tells and /emotes.

Welcome to an MMO, there are very few systems in this game that can't be used to harass people in some manner. If that's a problem, FFXV is thataway ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilyrian

I think that's an interesting way to come at it. But given the reactionary nature of healing it could perhaps force people into a play style or 'rotation' that doesn't fit every encounter?

---

You pretty much nailed this approaches flaw on the first pass =( Holding Assize for a few moments to hit 6 targets instead of 1 or simply not popping tetra because regen might already have everything covered would be a negative impact on your score. If the scores were vague enough it could probably be disguised to some extent (Holding Assize for 30 seconds at the end of a boss is likely still a net loss for example) but it's still an issue none the less.

I'm not really sure if having a separate damage score and oGCD/Cooldown or whatnot healing score would be better than combining the two. Could go either way with that really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

My question is still what good is telling these players they're crap or playing wrong going to be if the system isn't going to tell them why there crap or what they are doing wrong. There no constructive input there or actionable information. So again How do you expect those players to fix there issues if they don't know what those issues are?

---

Maybe I'm showing my UO/Everquest roots here. But if I wasn't sure about something, I'd either look at the tooltips, ask a friend/fc/ls or I'd google it. That's just how I expect things to work in an Massively Multiplayer Online game tbh. Don't get me wrong, it'd be fantastic if there was someway for a system like this to give accurate and relevant feedback on a players performance, but that just isn't going to happen as things are. SE won't be interested in putting in the work required to make and maintain this sort of thing.

Your approach is a lot like Musk deciding to can the whole Tesla thing because they won't go 1000 miles or run off solar power. It's not a perfect product (very few things are frankly), but it's the best that's achievable right now.

It's not a flawless solution, but in my eyes, it's the best solution that we can realistically expect SE to implement and the player base to warm up to. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Your approach is a lot like Musk deciding to can the whole Tesla thing because they won't go 1000 miles or run off solar power. It's not a perfect product (very few things are frankly), but it's the best that's achievable right now.

It's not a flawless solution, but in my eyes, it's the best solution that we can realistically expect SE to implement and the player base to warm up to. Rome wasn't built in a day.

---

I respect your opinion sure. But there's an expression in many business or academic worlds. Along the lines of there being 2 types of feedback constructive feedback. And worthless feedback. If feedback isn't constructive in some way. it's worthless basically.

If you go to a restaurant have a meal and at the end just say it was crap and leave. That is worthless feedback. It's unactionable the restaurant can't make changes to improve if it doesn't know why people think the food is crap.

If you went to that restaurant however and said the food was crap becsuse it was over cooked then thats actionable the restaurant can do something about that... its constructive and worthwhile feedback. Thus the restaurant can fix he problem and make the food better..

I kinda see a grading system in xiv the same way. If all it's going to do is slam players and say there crap without telling them why then it's really not going to help anyone. It's basically the same as an often dubbed elitist jerk being hostile and saying you suck.

And if you expect those players to go to an outside third party source and actually do research into there job how is that any different from what players already do with act, logs, you tube and various other tools?

If your not going to have constructive feedback with that ranking system then all it's going to do is belittle and slam players who play badly. Thus it won't actyally help anyone.

Your probably find they're more likely to quit than figure out why they suck. Especially if you make the information they need to improve unavailable to them...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

Your probably find they're more likely to quit than figure out why they suck. Especially if you make the information they need to improve unavailable to them...

---

I don't really understand what you are basing this stance on though. At no point has this game ever actually taught players how to play well, nor has it ever given feed back on why it just wiped you and your party in challenging content. There is literally nothing that points to the importance of maintaining a high APM, or correct clipping. Even maintaining debuffs barely gets any mention if at all. It's just an MMO thing. Good tutorials are rarely a strong point of this genre and FFXIV is a particularly bad example of this.

I appreciate what you're asking for, but it's just not viable. To write off this idea because of that strikes me as self defeating.

We need 1.0 again! <3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

I don't really understand what you are basing this stance on though. At no point has this game ever actually taught players how to play well, nor has it ever given feed back on why it just wiped you and your party in challenging content. There is literally nothing that points to the importance of maintaining a high APM, or correct clipping. Even maintaining debuffs barely gets any mention if at all. It's just an MMO thing. Good tutorials are rarely a strong point of this genre and FFXIV is a particularly bad example of this.

I appreciate what you're asking for, but it's just not viable. To write off this idea because of that strikes me as self defeating.

---

I'm not writing the idea off I'm just saying that if it's not going to provide any actual benefit to players what is it's purpose?

What is the benefit of a grade system telling a player there crap if it isn't going to give them any info they can use to improve?

Don't get me wrong I fully support any system that encourages player improvement. I just haven't seen anyone explain how a grade system would do that without providing information that explains that grade and how it may be improved.. And if it does provide that information it's fundamently impossible to do so in a simple way because off the sheer number of variables that would need to be taken Into account if that information is to be even remotely accurate.

It seems people expect players to go holy shit I got a rank d I'm terrible and then go look up videos on you tube or install act or some other third party stuff to find out what they are doing wrong... which is kinda ironic when the original idea was supposed to be avoiding such things.

If your goal is to improve as a player, you don't need this.

OP, you just want numbers to validate your improvement. But numbers don't tell the whole story, do they? If you run plenty of content, then you should already know this. As an example, let's say you're playing a healer and you run the same instance twice. Your second run shows you have increased your pDPS from the previous. But was this truly you, or because your group performed better on the second run allowing you more windows to DPS?

Healer and Tank DPS rely HEAVILY on how their group is performing, but even the performance of true DPS jobs can be hindered from crappy play from their healers and tanks. Where's the stat that says, "tank spun the boss xx times" or "healer didn't cleanse my paralysis"?

Nothing like this needs to be implemented to improve as player, and I grow tired of it being tossed around like it's absolutely necessary. Improving as a player only requires the desire and resolve to do so. They read tooltips, and learn through trial and error. They watch videos of their own gameplay and identify what they could have done differently. They hop back in the instance that just handed their ass to them even if they got a clear because they WANT another go at the mechanic(s) they failed.

Now all that said, I am actually on board with some kind of personal parser for players to look at. I believe it can be a tool that could help improve player performance. But optimal individual performances won't get you a whole lot of clears, because clears, especially the tougher ones, requires a group effort. I am definitely NOT on board with players being graded based on how much damage they are dishing out, especially healers and tanks whose performances are much harder to grade systemically.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

It seems people expect players to go holy shit I got a rank d I'm terrible and then go look up videos on you tube or install act or some other third party stuff to find out what they are doing wrong...

---

Or they could ask a friend, an fc mate, a linkshell mate, perhaps even someone in the novice network? This is an MMO after all. Eureka suggests you do this, a number of significant side quests suggest you do this. Even a few of the relic steps leave you with a 'go ask people where to find the stuff'. Is communicating with other players and people in game that much of a lost art that you continuously ignore it as an option? I've never looked at a guide, video or someone elses log to figure out roughly what I should be doing on my RDM. In my case I just looked at the tooltips and did some simple math. Granted not all jobs have it that easy (thx no dots).

I'm guessing I'm safe in assuming that you'd written the idea off from the word go and that I'm wasting my time trying to debate this with you. But just remember this discussion next time you try to suggest an improvement to a someone who immediately and aggressively rebukes your response. In their eyes, they are doing just fine, and the game client is doing nothing to suggest otherwise. But yeah, since it's not viable to give them a detailed break down of what they are doing wrong and hold their hand in trying to correct it. This is absolutely fine right?

There are a lot of players out that flat out do not realise how poorly they are performing. This is just a little easy to implement carrot to try and start the itch of self improvement, nothing more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

If your goal is to improve as a player, you don't need this.

---

And another one completely misses the point. Yay =(

This is for those that don't realise that they need to improve.

But Their point is that the ppl that don't known they need to improve is most likely to be with a lack of willingness to do, their point is that if you want to improve or you want to know if you suck you'll most likely find the informations on your own instead of waiting for them to be handed to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remedi

But Their point is that the ppl that don't known they need to improve is most likely to be with a lack of willingness to do, their point is that if you want to improve or you want to know if you suck you'll most likely find the informations on your own instead of waiting for them to be handed to you.

---

So, rather than take an admittedly small step towards trying to solve the problem, the accepted solution is to do nothing at all? Gotcha.

That is where my eagerness to try and make suggestions of positive steps for this game ends.

I dream of a system where players play only with players of comparable performance. Maybe after being surrounded by 7 other questionably skilled players some would wake up and actually bother improving. Or leave the game. Either suits me. But alas, it is just a dream.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

And another one completely misses the point. Yay =(

This is for those that don't realise that they need to improve.

---

If we're talking about players improving, then the logic is already flawed. That's what I see being missed time and time again. This logic operates on the premise on not only a player actually wanting to improve, but also and more importantly when a ceiling is even placed on a skill level.

What I am getting at here is that ALL players should strive to improve, and it doesn't matter what content you run, or how good or bad you currently are. It shouldn't be a realization based off of some presented figures shown from a log. It should just be proper etiquette and courtesy to other players to always strive to be better than the player you were yesterday.

If the point is solely improving DPS, then that is not the impression I got from the OP. DPS is one of many factors related to player skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AxlStream

I dream of a system where players play only with players of comparable performance. Maybe after being surrounded by 7 other questionably skilled players some would wake up and actually bother improving. Or leave the game. Either suits me. But alas, it is just a dream.

---

Now that was a legitimately controversial suggestion ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

It should just be proper etiquette and courtesy to other players to always strive to be better than the player you were yesterday.

---

Agreed that would be a wonderful situation to strive for, however that's also idealistic to the point of naivety to expect that out of the masses.

My point isn't solely about DPS, granted that is a fair portion of it (given that combat effectively revolves around it for the majority of this game). As I stated in an earlier discussion in this thread, the idea of using healers and tanks cooldown and oGCD usage as another metric was one that appealed to me. That's not a DPS thing, that's just good form and play. Granted it's nigh impossible to accurately reflect that in a value without some form of flaw in there.

*edit*

I'll also add, lets keep in mind that no single solution is ever going to fix the skill disparity that exists within this game. It's going to take a combination of things to help ease down the gap, and I see this as one of several things that are required. Baby steps etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

So, rather than take an admittedly small step towards trying to solve the problem, the accepted solution is to do nothing at all? Gotcha.

That is where my eagerness to try and make suggestions of positive steps for this game ends.

---

That's not what they are getting, they are saying that the approach is wrong because aside telling you that you failed a scoring without a context helps no1 if that person doesn't want to improve at all and ppl that want to improve are already doing it, so this approach doesn't really do much.

I think the best approach is idd making the mentor system not a meme and reinforcing it to be a real UI, with guides and stuff.
If SE inteded for Novice hall to be the ELI5 way of play the game and then the mentor network to be the continuation of that, by making veteran players being able to teach new players then They should make so that it's not just a chat and make it something really worth using from a new player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Agreed that would be a wonderful situation to strive for, however that's also idealistic to the point of naivety to expect that out of the masses.

My point isn't solely about DPS, granted that is a fair portion of it (given that combat effectively revolves around it for the majority of this game). As I stated in an earlier discussion in this thread, the idea of using healers and tanks cooldown and oGCD usage as another metric was one that appealed to me. That's not a DPS thing, that's just good form and play. Granted it's nigh impossible to accurately reflect that in a value without some form of flaw in there.

*edit*

I'll also add, lets keep in mind that no single solution is ever going to fix the skill disparity that exists within this game. It's going to take a combination of things to help ease down the gap, and I see this as one of several things that are required. Baby steps etc.

---

Aye. It is idealistic. Even erroneous to have such an expectation. But the logic behind it isn't flawed because it only applies to players who already strive to get better. Skill ceilings do not exist because they acknowledge that there is always something that can be improved. Combat is also practical, which means spending time away from it, or from any particular job can lead to a deterioration of skill level. The good 'ol, "If you don't use it, you lose it." psychology.

If the intention from an in game parser is to give good players another tool to evaluate their own performance, I am totally on board with it. I'm afraid though, that the only thing that is going to reduce the skill disparity are the players themselves. It is unfortunate that it seems that the solution to the problem is the very same naïve and idealistic approach to content that cannot be expected from the entire playerbase. And there lies the conundrum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

I'm afraid though, that the only thing that is going to reduce the skill disparity are the players themselves.

---

Think of a new player as being dropped in the middle of a maze. There are clues as to the way out all around them but sadly the lights are off. If something basic were implemented like the suggested PPS model I would see that as giving that new player a flashlight. It isn't going to get them out of the maze, it isn't even going to give them a map. Some people might never even turn the flashlight on!

Some people will though, and with it they'll see the clues.

No one tool could ever magically impart skills or understanding, no one is suggesting a basic meter like this would do anything that drastic, but having a tool is better than walking through a maze emptyhanded. Right now with the way you can more or less play the game all the way to the level cap and never find out you're supposed to keep Straight Shot up on BRD I think anything is better than what we have now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

snip

---

Totally off topic but I don't have another way to say it - thank you for being so awesome! I'm healing through Sigmascape now, working on God Kefka. Got a super late start. I also heal primarily with a SCH who likes to dps a lot. Your logs have been invaluable, I think they're even gonna help me figure out GK. So yeah, fangirl moment over, but thank you! <3