Please fix tank accessories already, it's been 3 patches

The problem with your rational is that you are trying to play in a way that they werent designed. The best tanking year is the highest level available. The best dps gear isn't.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

The problem with your rational is that you are trying to play in a way that they werent designed. The best tanking year is the highest level available. The best dps gear isn't.

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It depends on what you want to maximize. You can't say "it's higher ilvl so it's better" because that's only 50% true. Most high levels tanks prefer pentamelded accessories because it gives them more damage. But savage accessories are good also because it gives you more health. In both case the difference is so minimal you will barely notice it.

We don't need 2000 more HP to clear 99% of the content (can't speak about Ultimate basically), we also don't need 1% more damage to clear current content. In the end it's up to personal preferences and bandwagon'ing. Ideally, savage accs should be better than pentamelded in both damage and HP.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

The problem with your rational is that you are trying to play in a way that they werent designed. The best tanking year is the highest level available. The best dps gear isn't.

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It's pretty clear that savage isn't tuned with savage accessories in mind. The general consensus is that if you can comfortably survive a tank buster + the following auto attack, that it's much more helpful to focus on a dps increase.

No one with pentamelded fending accessories is gonna see savage accessories and go "I'm gonna equip that to increase my hp, at the loss of dps".

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

It's pretty clear that savage isn't tuned with savage accessories in mind. The general consensus is that if you can comfortably survive a tank buster + the following auto attack, that it's much more helpful to focus on a dps increase.

No one with pentamelded fending accessories is gonna see savage accessories and go "I'm gonna equip that to increase my hp, at the loss of dps".

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That doesn't change what was said. You aren't a dps class. It's pretty obviohs why they don't give you dps gear, which is why you are making other customizable tank gear into dps gear.

The argumemt seems to be that we should just get rid of the whole trinity of roles thing and stop having tanks.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

That doesn't change what was said. You aren't a dps class. It's pretty obviohs why they don't give you dps gear, which is why you are making other customizable tank gear into dps gear.

The argumemt seems to be that we should just get rid of the whole trinity of roles thing and stop having tanks.

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Let me just link you two of the items in question, since I'm not sure you fully understand the topic at hand.
Diamond Necklace of Fending
Black Willow Necklace of Fending
They're both tanking accessories, but the i350 crafted version is valued higher than the i370 version.

Tanks aren't asking for actual dps/slaying accessories, they're asking for the higher ilvl Fending accessories to actually be upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

That doesn't change what was said. You aren't a dps class. It's pretty obviohs why they don't give you dps gear, which is why you are making other customizable tank gear into dps gear.

The argumemt seems to be that we should just get rid of the whole trinity of roles thing and stop having tanks.

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That is a pretty narrowed view.

Tanks shouldn't get stronger with higher gear is like saying healers shouldn't get stronger either, yet they do!

Their damage power (INT) is now the same as their healing power (MND).
DPS is meta and the game is designed that way. Doesn't matter whether this was intended by the devs or not.

Especially in 3.x, tanks had to equip STR gear to meet DPS checks. If you didn't, you were more of a burden than a gain to the raid.

But what did VIT give you? More HP you don't need, it might be worthless in the end.
A tankbuster + AA might have killed you before, did the higher gear prevent this? Probably not.
Did it save a heal or let you take more AA? Most likely not.
How about faster kill? Absolutely NOT!

Tanks don't feel any bit stronger with higher accessories. Remove them from savage drops, and you wouldn't even notice a difference. They are worthless pieces of gear!
This should not be the case for the highest gear available!

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

The argumemt seems to be that we should just get rid of the whole trinity of roles thing and stop having tanks.

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No, the argument is fix accessories so that getting a 370 raid drop feels like an actual upgrade from the 350 crafted you bought at the beginning..

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

The problem with your rational is that you are trying to play in a way that they werent designed. The best tanking year is the highest level available. The best dps gear isn't.

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The problem with your logic here is inserting the concept of "tanking" itself. You're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand of what a tank is or isn't, even though the conversation is only about gear, specifically the accessories. A more appropriate way to make that point is the highest level tanking gear gives you the most HP, but not necessarily the most DPS.

From there we say the extra HP isn't necessary to kill the fights, so are we actually getting an upgrade from the raids? Not really. However, every other job gets to benefit from raid drops* because for every other job the highest DPS comes from the highest level gear. All we are asking for is some parity on tank gear.

* - (obviously raid drops aren't always BiS so this extends to item upgrades and tome accessories as well)


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The only real concession I'd make on the whole situation is at least tanks can be halfway to BiS in week 1, this benefits the group from both having sturdier tanks up front for prog but also frees up item upgrades to get the rest of the group geared up faster.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

From there we say the extra HP isn't necessary to kill the fights, so are we actually getting an upgrade from the raids? Not really. However, every other job gets to benefit from raid drops* because for every other job the highest DPS comes from the highest level gear. All we are asking for is some parity on tank gear.
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You also don't need the DPS crafted accessories provide to kill the fights. In fact, if you have i350 right now, you won't even need the new i380 accessories assuming they keep up the same pattern. Save your money. Or don't. I win either way.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Let me just link you two of the items in question, since I'm not sure you fully understand the topic at hand.
Diamond Necklace of Fending
Black Willow Necklace of Fending
They're both tanking accessories, but the i350 crafted version is valued higher than the i370 version.

Tanks aren't asking for actual dps/slaying accessories, they're asking for the higher ilvl Fending accessories to actually be upgrades.

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They are, just people don't want what the upgrade gives. The difference is pretty tiny so I don't think SE sees much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

They are, just people don't want what the upgrade gives. The difference is pretty tiny so I don't think SE sees much of an issue.

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You must not have any experience with maining a tank job at savage difficulty, this expansion. The pentamelded i350 accessories are, point for point, better than the i370 raid/augmented tomestone ones. The exact same happened with the previous tier of i320 crafted and i340 deltascape/creation accessories. Heck, tanks even used the i270 slaying accessories for a while because they provided more dps than the SB accessories.

Just because the accessories give a tank more health, doesn't actually make them better, since the content isn't tuned with the expectation of a tank wearing full i370 gear. It's like stacking accuracy (pre-SB) after already hitting the cap, just not worth it over getting higher dps.

I don't get why people are so against tanks getting a proper upgrade path for almost half of their gear, when this issue doesn't exist for the other roles.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

I don't get why people are so against tanks getting a proper upgrade path for almost half of their gear, when this issue doesn't exist for the other roles.

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People sell those crafted accessories, and especially the pentamelded ones, for quite a bit of Gil. Crafters and the economy get a nice boost on the back of tanks.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

People sell those crafted accessories, and especially the pentamelded ones, for quite a bit of Gil. Crafters and the economy get a nice boost on the back of tanks.

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Buddy, -everyone- buys them.

You're just the only lot that keeps them.

Looking at my local market board history for the past 24 hours:
30 sales of tank accessories (of any type).
8 sales of healing accessories.
10 dps accessories.

1/4th of the population is buying 60% of the crafted accessories in the past 24 hours. Not exactly a coincidence. I could go back up to a week based on time stamps. The situation does not get better.

Second, with the exception of my main class I don't even craft my own accessories, I just gear them from tomes and the extra savage books since with the exception of my tanks, that gear is better. Now, if your point is day 1 raiders, then yes, for their main class it is likely they will be getting crafted gear, but its optional as you have stated yourself. Even then it is then optional to pentameld that gear, as again it is optional and better gear is coming. Tanks have no reason to not be pressured by groups to spend gil and then spend more to pentameld as this is the best option available to you.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

People sell those crafted accessories, and especially the pentamelded ones, for quite a bit of Gil. Crafters and the economy get a nice boost on the back of tanks.

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You really think it's fair for tanks to have half of their gear progression be broken, just so you and other crafters can make a bit more gil?
I think it isn't, and I say that as both a tank and a crafter.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Looking at my local market board history for the past 24 hours:
30 sales of tank accessories (of any type).
8 sales of healing accessories.
10 dps accessories.

1/4th of the population is buying 60% of the crafted accessories in the past 24 hours. Not exactly a coincidence. I could go back up to a week based on time stamps. The situation does not get better.

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Of course fending accessories have the highest amount of sales, because pentamelding them allows players to keep them for the entire Sigmascape tier, as they won't have to upgrade them until the next set of crafted accessories in 4.4.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Second, with the exception of my main class I don't even craft my own accessories, I just gear them from tomes and the extra savage books since with the exception of my tanks, that gear is better. Now, if your point is day 1 raiders, then yes, for their main class it is likely they will be getting crafted gear, but its optional as you have stated yourself.

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Just because it's optional, doesn't mean it should be better than gear that's 20 item levels higher.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Even then it is then optional to pentameld that gear, as again it is optional and better gear is coming.

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You're right, better gear is coming, since 4.4 is likely adding the next set of crafting accessories. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Tanks have no reason to not be pressured by groups to spend gil and then spend more to pentameld as this is the best option available to you.

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This is kind of a conflicting statement. You first call the crafted gear optional, and then you're saying that it's okay for groups to pressure tanks into spending gil to get crafted accessories?
Did you mean "Tanks have no reason to be pressured by groups"?

At this point, I think SE should just not add a new set of crafted accessories in 4.4, if they don't intend to fix the issue before 5.0.

That's not what he meant by any of that at all.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

You really think it's fair for tanks to have half of their gear progression be broken, just so you and other crafters can make a bit more gil?
I think it isn't, and I say that as both a tank and a crafter.

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No, I don’t think this. The problem here, and you will notice this is a theme through your entire post, is reading my posts without taking into consideration the larger conversation at play. Here is the sequence:

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

I don't get why people are so against tanks getting a proper upgrade path for almost half of their gear, when this issue doesn't exist for the other roles.

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To which I respond:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

People sell those crafted accessories, and especially the pentamelded ones, for quite a bit of Gil. Crafters and the economy get a nice boost on the back of tanks.

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My answer to your point of why people would be against this, because they want to make money and BiS pieces make for an easy sale. It may be difficult to read my distaste for such a practice but if you read the bolded portion with some sarcasm you might understand my feeling on this subject.

How do I feel on this exactly? Here:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

The solution isn't even complicated. Crafted accessories are only marginally, less than a percent, better than accessories 20 ilvls above them. Upgrading to the 20 ilvl higher accessories gets you 18 more vit, 1 additional strength, and 18 more secondary stats, and that is just shy of being on par with crafted accessories.

If the strength on tank accessories increased by half of our vit stat increases (gaining 4 strength per 10 ilvls instead of 1 per 10 ilvls) we would have gear progression, tank dps wouldn't fly off the handle, and would require no changes to the damage formula or the way weakness is calculated. The solution is extremely simple and should raise questions as to why it hasn't been fixed.

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Next:

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Of course fending accessories have the highest amount of sales, because pentamelding them allows players to keep them for the entire Sigmascape tier, as they won't have to upgrade them until the next set of crafted accessories in 4.4.

Just because it's optional, doesn't mean it should be better than gear that's 20 item levels higher.

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My pointing out the sales history of accessories on my server to Kabooa is to contradict their statement that everyone is buying crafted sets. Yes, some people may want them, but if the driver is having good gear then why not go for even better gear? This is possible on every class, except tanks. Only one role having crafted BiS creates an imbalance on that role, and it is a consistent problem with each new crafted set.

To restate my opinion, again, I disagree with this practice. But you are taking a small portion of my post and not considering what it addressing, and this is causing you to reach the wrong conclusion about what I am saying again.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

You're right, better gear is coming, since 4.4 is likely adding the next set of crafting accessories. :rolleyes:

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Again, missed point. Crafted is optional for dps and healers because they can get better gear within the same patch as the crafted gear. The point, and more on this with the next part, is that this puts pressure on tanks because while “optional” its also BiS, the BiS status often translates to “expected” rather than optional. Again, this is not in a postive tone on my end.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

This is kind of a conflicting statement. You first call the crafted gear optional, and then you're saying that it's okay for groups to pressure tanks into spending gil to get crafted accessories?
Did you mean "Tanks have no reason to be pressured by groups"?

At this point, I think SE should just not add a new set of crafted accessories in 4.4, if they don't intend to fix the issue before 5.0.

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Again, you are reading my post out of context of the larger conversation in which it is happening and draw the wrong conclusion from my post. Some have made the argument that this gear is optional and so not necessary for tanks to have it. My point is that while that may be true on roles whose BiS are not crafted options, many groups will pressure their tanks for the large investment of time and/or resources for pentamelded accessories because they are BiS. I've been in groups which have specifically told tanks if you don't have crafted accessories you are being lazy and not forfilling your role to the group. The pressure is real from some players who way overvalue these pieces. This is, again, a post to refute the idea that these “optional” crafted accessories don’t create an imbalance on one role in the game.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

No, I don’t think this. The problem here, and you will notice this is a theme through your entire post, is reading my posts without taking into consideration the larger conversation at play. Here is the sequence:



To which I respond:



My answer to your point of why people would be against this, because they want to make money and BiS pieces make for an easy sale. It may be difficult to read my distaste for such a practice but if you read the bolded portion with some sarcasm you might understand my feeling on this subject.

How do I feel on this exactly? Here:

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Sarcasm doesn't translate well over text, so there was no way for me to determine that you found said practice to be distasteful. My misunderstanding could've been avoided if you had been clear on the subject.
Also, that post is almost a week old, so it had already slipped my mind.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

To restate my opinion, again, I disagree with this practice. But you are taking a small portion of my post and not considering what it addressing, and this is causing you to reach the wrong conclusion about what I am saying again.

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I only reached the wrong conclusion because you weren't clear on your opinion on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Again, missed point. Crafted is optional for dps and healers because they can get better gear within the same patch as the crafted gear. The point, and more on this with the next part, is that this puts pressure on tanks because while “optional” its also BiS, the BiS status often translates to “expected” rather than optional. Again, this is not in a postive tone on my end.

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I only missed the point because you didn't specify whether you were just talking about dps/healers, or if you were talking about all roles. That's the reason why I asked if you meant something else, since the optional part seemed to conflict with tanks getting pressured part.

If you had specified that it was optional for dps/healers, then it'd have been much more clear for me.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Sarcasm doesn't translate well over text, so there was no way for me to determine that you found said practice to be distasteful. My misunderstanding could've been avoided if you had been clear on the subject.
Also, that post is almost a week old, so it had already slipped my mind.

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I told you to read this with sarcasm because you don't know my opinion on this subject (as you also indicated), but Kabooa does because the two of us have had similar back and forth posts the last time this issue was in vogue. Prior thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Strength-Gain

The sarcasm is unnecessary to the meaning and connotation of what I wrote, simply reading that we are “boosting the economy on the backs of tanks” is itself is a negative criticism of the practice.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Now, if your point is day 1 raiders, then yes, for their main class it is likely they will be getting crafted gear, but its optional as you have stated yourself. Even then it is then optional to pentameld that gear, as again it is optional and better gear is coming. Tanks have no reason to not be pressured by groups to spend gil and then spend more to pentameld as this is the best option available to you.

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This segment, and the entire post is written in the context set in the post immediately prior to it:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Buddy, -everyone- buys them.

You're just the only lot that keeps them.

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So my position on the optional nature is in the context of everyone because that is the context set within the larger conversation at that moment. However, I am singling out one group in the last sentence, tanks, which undergoes pressure because of the BiS nature of crafted. Pressure does not mean it isn’t optional. I have multiple options and multiple pressures which help me make my decisions, but at no time does pressure mean I have no options. For example: I would like to play video games, but I also enjoy seeing friends in real life, I feel pressure in one direction and both are still optional. More to the point, for as many groups which lock out ilvl 363 BiS tanks, there are also groups who write “message me if you are an ilvl 363 tank”.

There are multiple issues with crafted accessories and crafted gear being BiS.

People who far overestimate the dps gain of crafted and demand tanks get crafted accessories.
People who don’t realize crafted is BiS for tanks and lock them out of pf for not being 370.
People who lock their pf but add messages to tanks to message them creates more confusion.
People taking advantage of the tank accessory situation to sell more.
Tank drops not being valuable gear upgrades from savage and feeling like wasted spots.

The BiS nature is just one aspect, and a design choice which, personally, I find unpleasant. Especially since it could have been avoided by making the strength gains per piece per 10 ilvls just a smidge higher (like 3 or 4 strength gained a piece per 10 ilvls over 1 and sometimes none).

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

The sarcasm is unnecessary to the meaning and connotation of what I wrote, simply reading that we are “boosting the economy on the backs of tanks” is itself is a negative criticism of the practice.

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Without beforehand knowledge of your opinion, the meaning of "boosting the economy on the backs of tanks" wouldn't necessarily be negative right away. At least that's what I could find on its meaning, as English isn't my primary language.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

This segment, and the entire post is written in the context set in the post immediately prior to it:

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Since you hadn't quoted Kabooa's post, I assumed the context of your post took more than just the previous post in mind.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

So my position on the optional nature is in the context of everyone because that is the context set within the larger conversation at that moment. However, I am singling out one group in the last sentence, tanks, which undergoes pressure because of the BiS nature of crafted. Pressure does not mean it isn’t optional. I have multiple options and multiple pressures which help me make my decisions, but at no time does pressure mean I have no options. For example: I would like to play video games, but I also enjoy seeing friends in real life, I feel pressure in one direction and both are still optional. More to the point, for as many groups which lock out ilvl 363 BiS tanks, there are also groups who write “message me if you are an ilvl 363 tank”.

There are multiple issues with crafted accessories and crafted gear being BiS.

People who far overestimate the dps gain of crafted and demand tanks get crafted accessories.
People who don’t realize crafted is BiS for tanks and lock them out of pf for not being 370.
People who lock their pf but add messages to tanks to message them creates more confusion.
People taking advantage of the tank accessory situation to sell more.
Tank drops not being valuable gear upgrades from savage and feeling like wasted spots.

The BiS nature is just one aspect, and a design choice which, personally, I find unpleasant. Especially since it could have been avoided by making the strength gains per piece per 10 ilvls just a smidge higher (like 3 or 4 strength gained a piece per 10 ilvls over 1 and sometimes none).

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Given enough pressure, some things might end up not being optional at all. Fortunately, that's not the case with fending accessories right now, as (like you've said) the dps increase is minimal.
That said, a minimal dps increase is still a dps increase, so seeing a savage fending accessory drop only makes me go "Meh, I've already got better" before hitting the pass button. Something that really shouldn't be the case when an item is 20 iLvls higher than the one I'm wearing, and isn't the case for the majority of the other jobs.

The context/sarcasm/meaning of things isn't really going anywhere though, since we both seem to want the same thing, a better upgrade path for tanking accessories without the need to shake things up completely.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

The BiS nature is just one aspect, and a design choice which, personally, I find unpleasant. Especially since it could have been avoided by making the strength gains per piece per 10 ilvls just a smidge higher (like 3 or 4 strength gained a piece per 10 ilvls over 1 and sometimes none).

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You also avoid it by simply making raid accessories come with the Strength Materia already in the stat budget.

This brings the stat deficit down to 5 strength vs something like 80 substat points, which basically means you're paying for week 1 progression premiums, just like every other Job.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Without beforehand knowledge of your opinion, the meaning of "boosting the economy on the backs of tanks" wouldn't necessarily be negative right away. At least that's what I could find on its meaning, as English isn't my primary language.

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Fair enough. The exact quote (I know I misquoted myself earlier but the quote didn't feel necessary before coffee) was:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

People sell those crafted accessories, and especially the pentamelded ones, for quite a bit of Gil. Crafters and the economy get a nice boost on the back of tanks.

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My meaning goes like this, my initial response is answering why people would not agree with us: In my opinion they are crafters who have likely made some gil off the sale of those accessories and they do not want a regular source of sales to dry up. The second sentence is that they (the crafters who want to keep crafted BiS as a practice they can make gil off of) have a regular consumer base off which they can profit even when it comes at a detriment to the people purchasing their crafts; this is what I mean when I say they get a boost on the back of tanks. Hopefully that helps us understand each other and it is more clear why I consider that a critisism.

More positive solution in my mind: I wish this game in general worked to create more meaningful bonds between crafters and raiders. For example: Imagine if the final floor dropped items which added materia slots to gear. Suddenly crafters, gatherers and raiders would all have a reason to work with eachother. But I'm just musing at this point.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You also avoid it by simply making raid accessories come with the Strength Materia already in the stat budget.

This brings the stat deficit down to 5 strength vs something like 80 substat points, which basically means you're paying for week 1 progression premiums, just like every other Job.

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There are alot of ways around it in my opinion. Some are simpler than others. As long as it achieves this: No crafted BiS, then I'm happy with the solution.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

My meaning goes like this, my initial response is answering why people would not agree with us: In my opinion they are crafters who have likely made some gil off the sale of those accessories and they do not want a regular source of sales to dry up. The second sentence is that they (the crafters who want to keep crafted BiS as a practice they can make gil off of).

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I feel this is an unfair assumption, as a peddler of those said accessories.

The majority of the sales I make are in the first two weeks, and those are exorbitant prices. We're talking somewhere in the line of (in 4.2) of a 2000% mark up, and in the cases of 4.0, near 3000%. I sell every variation in equalish amounts, it largely depends on the Substat combination of the piece on question.

Crit/Det pieces fly off the rack for jobs of every type, Crit/SS for the Black Mages and Red mages, etc etc.

Everyone buys them. Everyone. Week 1, week 2, week 12.

In fact, here you go. The last "20 items sold" on Gilgamesh using just rings of every stripe.

https://imgur.com/a/KgjCMgg

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Let me just link you two of the items in question, since I'm not sure you fully understand the topic at hand.
Diamond Necklace of Fending
Black Willow Necklace of Fending
They're both tanking accessories, but the i350 crafted version is valued higher than the i370 version.

Tanks aren't asking for actual dps/slaying accessories, they're asking for the higher ilvl Fending accessories to actually be upgrades.

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Be upgrades by being dps focused*

So you aren't claiming that those 50 accessories are better because you meld them to be dps? How was I wrong exactly?

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

Be upgrades by being dps focused*

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What else would tanks be focusing on, oh wise one?
Because health isn't worth stacking after sitting at an amount where you can comfortably handle tank busters with proper CD usage.

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Originally Posted by Cirgellon

So you aren't claiming that those 50 accessories are better because you meld them to be dps? How was I wrong exactly?

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I hope you realise that literally every meld option for tanks increases a tank's dps. Even tenacity.
By your definition, the only tanks that don't meld their accessories to be dps, are the ones that don't meld them at all.

Minus the sarcasm, I agree with Nezerius. First of all, 99.9% of melding is DPS-focused by design, the only exceptions are piety and vitality, and even piety can indirectly boost healer DPS. A tank that melds at all is melding for DPS, because that is quite literally the only thing they can meld that actually affects them. Furthermore, the idea that a 350 accessory is better than a 370 because of DPS isn't just an opinion, it's a mathematical fact. Tanks receive no benefit for boosting their health beyond what is required to survive a buster and one (maaaaaaybe two) auto-attacks afterward, as survival is completely binary and having more health will not reduce healer GCD usage, and is therefore irrelevant. Additionally the safety net the extra vitality on the 370 accessories provides is useless because you've clearly demonstrated that you didn't need it to clear the fight, hence having the accessory in the first place.

Stop trying to reinforce the idea of role purity where it simply does not exist.

even from a defense standpoint the i350 accessories pentamelded with tenacity may be better than the i370 stuff (except the i370 has capped tenacity). extra mitigation is better than extra health.

My biggest issues is ilvl sync and materia. You can be lvl 70, in lvl 70 content and lose all of your STR materia due to ilvl sync.

They really need to buff STR on Acc's so this doesn't happen.

I also have a small rant concerning this subject. If a tank players gains a higher level tank accessory, the stats should at least go up as well. There should be no reason why both the i350 and i360 tank accessories both have 43 strength. The latter should have at least one or two more strength points.

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Originally Posted by shao32

this is from a recent korean interview:

Q: Tanks require Crafted equipments much more than other roles. Please increase the value of raid equipment!

A: In terms of development standpoint, I don't think tanks should be able to to output DPS much higher than necessary. But I do however think and understand that players want to output more DPS. I understand that this is a problem right now but if we are to immediately address it, it would end up as if the solution being a forced one rather than ideal. We are always tackling on this issue here so it'll take some time before we can address this.

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Increasing Role Actions to 10 slots isn't a "forced" solution because Role Actions are currently in such an ideal spot right now

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Increasing Role Actions to 10 slots isn't a "forced" solution because Role Actions are currently in such an ideal spot right now

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

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"We should just have access to all of them."

*gives access to all of them*

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"We should just have access to all of them."

*gives access to all of them*

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I'm legit excited to finally use that AOE voke move. If nothing else its an extra voke which = more voke shirks and recovery vokes after tank deaths.

Also awareness on EVERY raw intuition. <3

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Originally Posted by Aana

I'm legit excited to finally use that AOE voke move. If nothing else its an extra voke which = more voke shirks and recovery vokes after tank deaths.

Also awareness on EVERY raw intuition. <3

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Realistically, yeah, it'll be nice being able to take all the CDs instead of having to swap them out. But still, my point stands. Bandaid fixes are OK for somethings but not for others? Come on SE

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Realistically, yeah, it'll be nice being able to take all the CDs instead of having to swap them out. But still, my point stands. Bandaid fixes are OK for somethings but not for others? Come on SE

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Well, yeah.

One is "Mandatory actions eliminate the point of the role system in its implementation"

The other is "My tanking accessories aren't DPS upgrades", and there isn't going to be a single bandaid fix, or even a permanent one, that's going to make everyone happy.

Add +3 str per 10 ilvls "Why do we still have to meld Strength"
Remove strength melding "Why don't our accessories have more strength"
Accessories get more strength but other stats suffer because Tanks already do too much damage "Why do tanks not have full scaling on all gear"

Most of the adjustments suggested tend to be paired with "But you can also do X if tank damage is getting out of hand" which just means the adjustment was ultimately pointless.

More strength, but keep the same damage.

Well, that's just pointless, and a bandaid fix doesn't apply here.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Well, yeah.

One is "Mandatory actions eliminate the point of the role system in its implementation"

The other is "My tanking accessories aren't DPS upgrades", and there isn't going to be a single bandaid fix, or even a permanent one, that's going to make everyone happy.

Add +3 str per 10 ilvls "Why do we still have to meld Strength"
Remove strength melding "Why don't our accessories have more strength"
Accessories get more strength but other stats suffer because Tanks already do too much damage "Why do tanks not have full scaling on all gear"

Most of the adjustments suggested tend to be paired with "But you can also do X if tank damage is getting out of hand" which just means the adjustment was ultimately pointless.

More strength, but keep the same damage.

Well, that's just pointless, and a bandaid fix doesn't apply here.

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I guess if we really wanted to be technical about it, strength being on accessories at all now was a bandaid fix to keep players from using HW accessories. But that aside.. A real solution would've been fixing the role actions themselves, giving us 5 extra slots is as "forced solution" as it gets lol. It doesn't make mandatory actions optional, and it's not like it was difficult to make a macro to change your role actions on the fly. Now it's set and forget, you'll never have to look at your role actions ever again. Never need to make a decision or work skills out between the roles. Less communication the better, after all.*

There's always going to be players pushing and pulling their favorite thoughts/ideas/opinions. That doesn't mean SE should throw their hands in the air and do nothing about this particular issue. We are asking for tanks to have the same, meaningful upgrade path as other jobs. I don't want to drop 20 million on crafted accessories. With enough friends hopefully I won't have to, but it's not an expense they should incur on my behalf either. It's not a difficult change to make at all, and is an extra 15-20 str on tanks really going to upset dps balance that much? Unlikely..

* reference to this thread

There have been a dozen completely viable, reasonable tank accessory changes that account for all the (stated) issues SE has talked about with tank main stats/HP/Weakness/Balance/etc and give players what they have been asking for (meaningful progression in all slots just like every other class in the game). On top of that, many of the suggestions do not even require fundamental system changes. Just number tweaks on gear.

My personal favorites are:
Option 1:
* Shuffle existing stats on tank gear between left and right side. Example (made up numbers):
Ilvl 150 gear: Total str on left side of gear is 1000. Total str on right side gear is 500. Total 1500.
illvl 200 gear: Total str on left side is 1450, right side gear is 550. Total 2000.
Fixed ilvl 150 gear: Left side total 750. Right side total 750. Total 1500
Fixed ilvl 200 gear: Left side total 1000. Right side total 1000. Total 2000.

No power creep/issue with damage. Zero affect on HP/Weakness. Every slot grows. Higher ilvl gear will beat lower ilvl gear. Requires gear number tweaks, no system fixes.

Option 2: Slightly more complex but ends up the same way.
*Boost str on accessories to match DPS str. Damage goes up by X%.
*Reduce Base Weapon Damage. Damage goes down by X%.
Properly tuned there would be virtually no change in tank damage and we get even progression between all slots like every other class. No HP/Weakness/System changes/Balance problems/etc.

There are plenty of other viable suggestions made all over these forums, I just think these are the easiest to implement (gear number changes), most straight forward, and check all the complaint boxes of players and avoid the 'issues' the devs have outwardly stated about this. At this point, there is no reason SE cannot give players what they want for minimal effort via simple gear number tweaks.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

There's always going to be players pushing and pulling their favorite thoughts/ideas/opinions. That doesn't mean SE should throw their hands in the air and do nothing about this particular issue. We are asking for tanks to have the same, meaningful upgrade path as other jobs. I don't want to drop 20 million on crafted accessories. With enough friends hopefully I won't have to, but it's not an expense they should incur on my behalf either. It's not a difficult change to make at all, and is an extra 15-20 str on tanks really going to upset dps balance that much? Unlikely.

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It might not be a difficult change, but it's also a pretty pointless one. 15-20 is just going mean that instead of being at 98% in full raid gear, you're going to be at 100%, about the same level if you still used crafted accessories.

So are you really going to tell me you're going to gamble for, at most, 20 weeks to hit your 100%, or are you still going to pay 20 million to hit that week 1?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It might not be a difficult change, but it's also a pretty pointless one. 15-20 is just going mean that instead of being at 98% in full raid gear, you're going to be at 100%, about the same level if you still used crafted accessories.

So are you really going to tell me you're going to gamble for, at most, 20 weeks to hit your 100%, or are you still going to pay 20 million to hit that week 1?

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The complaints (imo) arent really about the difference in performance. As someone pointed out above, plenty of DPS and healers also buy crafted gear because it is still REALLY good for anyone starting out. Its the frustration of raiding and your entire group lets out a collective sigh when a tank accessory drops because we all know its going on a retainer instead of helping the group move forward. It's the extra 'mandatory-ness' that tanks are pressured to spend and pentameld more than other people (as noted, some people will buy them regardless, but now it is a choice to spend boats of money for a temporary boost just like other jobs, not a socially unacceptable shunning by the raid community).

It isnt about "oh well now you have to wait 3 months to get your 2% more damage why wouldnt you want it up front!?" This is just straightforward job equality. Every single job in this game has the same relationship with accessories as with ALL crafted equipment. It's an upfront boost for a tier for a LOOOOT of money. But never the end all and thus a choice. Just like meds. You can gil toss for power, but you can also just slow and cheap your way to the finish line and not make half the gear in savage raids dead on day 1 for 3 classes.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

So are you really going to tell me you're going to gamble for, at most, 20 weeks to hit your 100%, or are you still going to pay 20 million to hit that week 1?

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I mean I've never paid to hit it week one, I ain't got that kind of gil lol. It took me probably 4 or 5 weeks to get them all crafted and even longer to get them pentamelded. And if it wasn't for my awesome co-tank I wouldn't have had them at all (well, only 1 or 2). If it were up to me then yes, I'd gamble and wait until I got either the raid drops or tome gear (at most it'd be 16 weeks since there's only 4 raid acc, realistically less because it's unlikely that all 4 would be BiS). And hey, at least it might've given me a reason to have kept doing v5s instead of skipping it for basically the last 3 months

Even if they are only going to be 1-2% apart, it should at least favor the higher level gear. Regardless of the importance of that 1-2%, there's absolutely no justification for it to be found on the gear that's 20 item levels lower than cap. For only 1 job type no less. Like, maybe, JUST MAYBE, if it was that way with all the classes I'd call it a wash. But it's not, it's just for tanks, and that's the shitty part.

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Originally Posted by Aana

It isnt about "oh well now you have to wait 3 months to get your 2% more damage why wouldnt you want it up front!?" This is just straightforward job equality. Every single job in this game has the same relationship with accessories as with ALL crafted equipment. It's an upfront boost for a tier for a LOOOOT of money. But never the end all and thus a choice. Just like meds. You can gil toss for power, but you can also just slow and cheap your way to the finish line and not make half the gear in savage raids dead on day 1 for 3 classes.

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There are two methods suggested here, aside from my own.

1. 15-20 more strength. This equalizes the gear, more or less, but then you're at the mercy of raid drops. Equalizing the gear is a pointless change because it doesn't change the fact that, for the people who care, they're still going to get the crafted accessories. The tank accessories dropping here are still less beneficial than anything else showing up. The dynamic hasn't changed: It's a bigger benefit if non-fending drops.

2. Shift the weights. Make left side less and right side more. Isn't that just terrible? Suddenly your left side pieces matter less. You haven't fixed the issue, you've merely moved it to all your pieces instead of just the accessories. You've made fending accessories more desirable to drop by making fending armor less desirable. This is already the case on specific pieces based on their sub stats, but now it's for all of them. Grand. Oh, and the kicker? You have to do this for all the gear, and to do it to the degree where Raiding Accessories are blatantly better, you severely harm Left Side weights.

Because if you shift 150 strength from Raid gear left to Raid Gear right, then you're shifting, what, 125 strength from Craft Gear Left to Craft Gear right. Any equivalent shifting of stats harms Fending leftside more than it boosts fending rightside.

You thought accessories were bad? Enjoy the more expensive pieces that you'll probably have to use now instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

1. 15-20 more strength. This equalizes the gear, more or less, but then you're at the mercy of raid drops. Equalizing the gear is a pointless change because it doesn't change the fact that, for the people who care, they're still going to get the crafted accessories. The tank accessories dropping here are still less beneficial than anything else showing up. The dynamic hasn't changed: It's a bigger benefit if non-fending drops.

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I find it difficult to believe it has to be so black and white, "raid drops are useless" and "at the mercy of raid drops" are the 2 most opposite ends of the spectrum. I don't think anyone has argued against crafting being a "leg up" for those capable of getting them the first week. There's nothing wrong with that aspect of crafted accessories. For anyone that did drop 20 mil week 1 then yea they probably aren't going to upgrade them, especially if it's only in the range of 1-2%. Again, nothing wrong here that's their choice. What I'm talking about, again I can only share from my perspective, like most serious players I eventually want to be BiS. That's half the reason I raid at all, I want to get better and better gear the more time I put in to it. It's a goal to eventually meet, obviously along with downing the content. I don't craft, I don't really gather, I don't sell content - so to me it feels like I'm being punished by wanting to be BiS because I've somehow got to come up with millions of gil that I don't care to farm instead of gearing up by running the content I love. You know, like every other job does. #becauseIamTank

And in the situation where a fending piece drops, even if str is equal between DPS and Tanks - it'd still be better for a DPS to get the upgrade because their kit is built for dealing damage, from higher potency attacks to buffs and debuffs it benefits them more. You're right, nothing has changed here.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

2. Shift the weights. Make left side less and right side more. Isn't that just terrible? Suddenly your left side pieces matter less. You haven't fixed the issue, you've merely moved it to all your pieces instead of just the accessories. You've made fending accessories more desirable to drop by making fending armor less desirable. This is already the case on specific pieces based on their sub stats, but now it's for all of them. Grand. Oh, and the kicker? You have to do this for all the gear, and to do it to the degree where Raiding Accessories are blatantly better, you severely harm Left Side weights.

Because if you shift 150 strength from Raid gear left to Raid Gear right, then you're shifting, what, 125 strength from Craft Gear Left to Craft Gear right. Any equivalent shifting of stats harms Fending leftside more than it boosts fending rightside.

You thought accessories were bad? Enjoy the more expensive pieces that you'll probably have to use now instead.

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I don't see how this is relevant. Much like the Weapon damage suggestion from Aana, the stats are what they are and we'd learn to deal with it. It's not like you can equip a DRG chest piece as a WAR, we aren't losing anything compared to other tanks. Bards had lower weapon damage throughout ARR iirc and it never affected their spot as a desired DPS, so I don't see how shifting STR around on tank gear would be any different. And I'm not much of a fan of this suggestion personally (I like the WD suggestion) but as long as the numbers are right it doesn't seem like it would be an issue. Tanks have X amount of str at max ilvl, shuffle around the numbers and they still have X amount of str. I kind of see what you're saying if there wasn't enough of an increase in stats between item levels, but I don't think crafted would be good enough to overcome all 11 pieces of gear being upgraded. There's always the possibility of 1 or 2 pieces having insanely better secondaries, and that's not far from where we are/have been in this game. I'm sure there are very few people who would willingly sit in a whole set of technically inferior gear strictly because of secondaries.