Tank Stance

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Originally Posted by shao32

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Yeah but if SE intended for tanks to use nothing but tank stance, why would Shield Oath not be at 30, or even 15 like I mentioned? Why even have Sword Oath before 50 if there's no content requiring 2 tanks before that point?

And SB release was just a mess for many classes, I think it's safe to say the devs did a lot of experimenting that didn't pan out quite like how they envisioned it.

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Originally Posted by AppleJinx

Pressing diversion is too hard! Must blame tank for not tanking right.

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Pfft, diversion such a wasted role skill. :P

I'm kinda old school and my opinion may not be popular but... to me, a tank's job (in pretty much every game I've played) is to 1) keep aggro and 2) mitigate incoming damage. Dps is a very distant 3rd. If the tank can't do those first two things then the tank is not good imo. A tank that can't keep control of the mobs is worse than worthless, they are a liability, and no amount of tank dps output makes up for that.

Tank dps means squat if they can't hold threat. Sure the dps should use their threat mitigation tools too, but if the tank still can't hold threat outside of tank stance then I feel they should turn it on. Personal tank dps means nothing when the actual dps in the party can't do their job because the boss is beating them upside the head. Dps threat mitigation tools aren't exactly on short cooldowns nor are their durations overly long. They aren't designed for consistent/continuous threat management... that's what a tank is for.

Diversion is on a 2 minute cooldown and lasts 30 seconds. If the tank can't hold aggro for those other 90 seconds when not in tank stance, then what good are they?

Bottom line... if you are a tank that can't hold aggro, you're not doing it right as far as I'm concerned. Of course that is merely my subjective opinion.

Well Nicodemus, nobody is saying anything to the contrary.
The thing is DPS is much more important than you may currently value. But of course the first two always apply.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

How does a skill like Decimate help your job as the off tank at all?

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I'm not sure its there to help, as opposed to prevent you from restoring health via steel cyclone. DRK still has it, but dark is very limited by MP generation since its insanely expensive to da+ drain constantly. PLD my only guess is they figured its enmity generation and mitigation was fine until 40, but most people do think it was a wtf decision anyways.

I mean too, why is enmity generation crippled in dps stance? what's the point of defensive boosts if everything is meant to be tanked without them?It's not even really stance dancing, you flip it on at the start and never leave dps stance if possible after. I think it's just their intent didn't match the way people played after a bit, because players are really good at finding ways to game systems, aka eureka fate trains.

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Originally Posted by Nockvryca

You can really say the same thing about every role in this game, I have run multiple dungeons that the dps are just not really doing damage and dungeon run takes what feels like an eternity. Why do a big pull if the dps are just going to single target? You are going to run into this alot in game, but I have had more good runs than bad runs. People just really only remember the bad rujs, then come to the official forums to complain about their one bad encounter.

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I don't really get what your trying to say here? Anyway, if the dps are crap then they're crap at least they're trying to dps and fulfil there purpose. If a tank doesn't try to maintain enmity then they are not fulfilling theirs. I don't know what pulling has to do with anything? Also I wish it were ONE bad encounter.

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Originally Posted by addz3

Also I wish it were ONE bad encounter.

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There is the old saying: if everywhere you go smells like poo, maybe you should try checking your shoe.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

There is the old saying: if everywhere you go smells like poo, maybe you should try checking your shoe.

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/sigh

I'm guessing your a warrior who just loves to dps. Frankly idc what you or other tanks do as long as they control enmity, try and get off your pedestal.

A simple fix to stances would to just add an enmity bonus to both. I agree with previous posts; they are a little outdated.

@addz - id love to talk to you.... in private....over this.

Look me up when you get the chance.

Want to pick your brains.
You just became my FC's latest assignment. (We're a school)

PS: your idea to nerf however isn't entirely in the right place.

Wow, you're bad and getting bad groups so nerf all tanks? Let's ruins EVERYONES fun for the transgression of 4 lower tier players. Why don't we remove all damage spells on healers in group play then? Or all utility on DPS classes? People should just do their primary role and only that after all!

I fully understand the the whole maxing tank dps out thing but i'm pretty not using tank stance for any reason ever isn't the right to do it not to mention most of the people I've run into in df that try it can't actually pull it off

Sure u do and enjoy your 1h+ Q time for any group content. Lol, if you want things get done by your way do it yourself.

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Originally Posted by addz3

I don't really get what your trying to say here? Anyway, if the dps are crap then they're crap at least they're trying to dps and fulfil there purpose. If a tank doesn't try to maintain enmity then they are not fulfilling theirs. I don't know what pulling has to do with anything? Also I wish it were ONE bad encounter.

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Crap is crap, trying hard crap won't make it any better (lol on that "at least", git gud or get out). If you don't care about others they don't care about you, tanks are the role in demand not a dps. Crying baby just cry.

To mirror what everyone else is saying to some extent, if your tank gets aggro established in the beginning of a fight and dps/healer hit diversion/lucid/etc. as needed, there usually isn't going to be any huge problems if everyone is on the same page.

Why punish the masses when there are a few bad apples scattered in the group? Sometimes you get good tanks, sometimes you don't. It's a fact of life unfortunately. Not every encounter will be tailored to our wants and wishes (much as anyone would love).

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

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You are totally right and we fully agree. However go back and read op's post again, what he was saying is: I met a bad tank in dungeon so just nerf the tank DPS stance and make all tanks play the way I want them to be...and if a dps (lol OP?) is bad at least he's trying to do his role and dps...badly (pathetic) and I don't care about others.

I have seen far too many tanks get killed in situations where the extra mitigation from tank stance would have saved them.
But nope, it's better to die than to compromise your damage output apparantly.

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Originally Posted by addz3

This has probably been said a 1000 times but I'm going to say it again. I've just finished doma castle on the leveling roulette and have experienced some of the worst tanking in recent memory. The WAR would not use defiance for the last boss, and when I commented on that fact he says dps should use diversion!? Wtf. When both dps and healer are the top 3 enmity list maybe use the godamn tank stance. This is why you are here...

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The tank was absolutely in the right—enmity management is the responsibility of all party members. You should always be using your enmity management skills; espeically Diversion since they buffed it to 90% reduced enmity for 30 seconds in 4.2; it’s ridiculously good now. I honestly get pretty tilted when I don’t see DPS using Diversion (especially MNK/SAM, for whom Diversion was buffed to the moon for initially anyways, and who got even MORE enmity management tools with Patch 4.3 in Purification and Third Eye/Merciful Eye); this is coming from a burst job (BRD) that could use a queller like Diversion but has to settle for enmity dumps that are supposed to be used for support purposes first and foremost instead.

All DPS (and healers) should be using enmity management skills: Diversion, Lucid Dreaming, Elusive Jump, Refresh, Tactician, Smokescreen, and Shadewalker. All tanks should be Provoke+Shirking in 8-man content, and using an aggro combo if necessary. However, in a run where everyone is actually managing their own hate, the latter is not generally needed. If you were refusing to quell your own aggro out of a crusade to get the tank to switch into tank stance, I’m sorry but you’re in the wrong.

Regarding the tank himself—was there a massive discrepancy in gear? Even in tank stance, with huge discrepancies, DPS can still rip off of a tank even with their enmity management tools. Same thing if the tank is just bad—I remember doing a Dzemael Darkhold on my alt a few days ago where the PLD, even with Shield Oath on and doing the occasional Flash/RoH was not enough to keep the SCH (!!!!) from ripping hate; the PLD was in Shire gear.

There isn’t enough in this story to paint the tank as the “real” bad guy here. Yes, you claim aggro was an issue the entire instance, but in the same breath you also said that enmity wasn’t your concern. Why make enmity even harder by ignoring the tools the developers gave you for it? If the tank was being bad, that’s on him, but you were also being bad by ignoring your own responsibilities.

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I find that more than not, warriors are the worst tanks for actual tanking in their tank stance. Is there some trait in the warrior tool bag that makes the player an arrogant douche that I wasn't aware of?

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Because Fell Cleave is just that amazing, and is locked to Deliverance. Not to mention WARs can do insane amounts of damage for tanks; espeically if the WAR is really, really good. If everyone is doing all they can to manage enmity, there is zero need for tank stance in most things outside of mass dungeon pulls or prog during high-end content (and that’s simply for the extra mitigation, and the extra healing with regards to Defiance—it doesn’t have built-in damage reductions).

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I would like to ask SE to take out the dps stance for group play. NERF the shit out of it so it's mainly for solo play like cleric stance back in the day. Before they increased enmity for tank moves this would of been more welcome but at least tanks would be.... err....tanks. Or just make WAR a dps.

Bring on the onslaught of pro dps for tanks, idc. Tanks should tank and not be worrying about dps. Save the rhetoric of dps = enmity and dps should manage enmity and all that. We've heard it all before.

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No, thank you. That’s a very fast way to reduce the number of tanks in duties even further. Again, enmity management is incredibly simple in this game. The recent changes to DRK in terms of their enmity multipliers mean that some can pull without Grit even on if everyone is managing their own hate. Enmity is not just the responsibility of the tanks; it is the responsibility of everyone.

Removing DPS stance in group content will also cause issues in 8-man and 24-man content, as there can only be one Main Tank at a time. What about the OTs? Are they to just not use a stance? They aren’t needed in terms of main tanking, and usually exist for things like tank swaps, adds, shared busters, taking over in the sad even the MT dies (which may or may not even happen), or Provoke+Shirking. Why not let them utilitize a DPS stance since that’s the majority of why they’re there anyways—they aren’t main-tanking, so they might as well deal damage.

As for Cleric Stance, well considering they made healer DPS even easier with Stormblood (no need for stance-dancing; all healer damage scales off of MND now), they already realize that this is a playstyle a lot of players enjoy (which is why they removed it, aside from just making it easier overall). After you’ve established hate and healed all there is to heal, there is nothing better to do than contribute to DPS. You certainly don’t stand around; I don’t know how people can do that because I personally find it incredibly boring to just wait for people to take damage.

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Originally Posted by Jekyll

Specifically related to Doma Castle, WAR doesn't have it's full 70 kit yet that allows them to play comfortably w/o tank stance when pulling a single target. So sure, he should've dropped a single enmity combo w/ Defiance + Deliverance.

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The only thing WAR would be missing (assuming he was level 68 or synced to level 68) is Inner Release. Which is a beautiful thing, but certainly not needed in terms of maintaining enmity and stance-dancing. You can start stance dancing as soon as you get Deliverance (level 52) so long as you know how to properly do it.

In Doma Castle, if you have a NIN, you can pull off a scummy WAR opener of Shadewalker (pre-pull) > Tomahawk > Equilibrium (for overheal+enmity generation) > optional Heavy Swing > Deliverance. I’m a garbage tank and I’ve managed to pull that off. With no NIN, one or two Butcher’s Block combos should be enough to solidify hate, then you can go into Deliverance and start rotating Path/Eye, and weave in your Berserks. Onslaught is also good for snap enmity, if you have to use it. But it also helps if DPS jobs are also managing their own aggro, as well as over-zealous healers.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

..your healer doesn't have diversion, they have a tool that refreshes their MP, which they use to offset the expensive cost of aoe dps. if you force me to use it on pull, thats a waste and reduces my dps overall. Using tactician or diversion on pull is a waste cause you need it for bursts, and tactician is clumsy as hell...its prime purpose again is to offset the tp cost of aoe dps. I mean just click tank on while you run, you aren't dpsing the mobs any while you do it. Click it off while at the end of the pull, thats ok, but ugh, i might want to benison or tetra you during a long pull, and no tank stance can mean it comes back to me.

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While I’ll agree that the premise of using a support/self-sustaining tool for enmity is flawed (BRD main here, so I know what you’re talking about), healers shouldn’t be generating enough aggro to rip if the tank is rotating between mobs and using Unleash/Abyssal Drain/Flash/Overpower spamming to hit all of them and establish enmity in the first place unless the healer is blatantly overhealing when there is absolutely no need to be healing. You don’t need tank stance for establishing initial threat on trash packs or bosses—tank stance is there merely to mitigate the brunt of the oncoming damage, or, in WAR’s case, provide extra healing potency in trash packs. The extra mitigation typically isn’t needed for bosses unless the tank or healer are woefully undergeared and cannot keep up with the damage output.

If you’re ripping with Tetra, then the tank is doing something incredibly wrong that using tank stance alone is not going to rectify.

Tactician is also not clumsy, by the way...it’s an oGCD that you can literally weave between Heavy Shots. Or between combo GCDs/Split Shot spam on MCH. Which, if you’re ripping hate doing AOE, it’s still a gain since you’ll probably need the TP anyways.

i mean diversions great and all but there are some tanks that are so bad diversion isn't enough

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Originally Posted by Pyro2hell3

i mean diversions great and all but there are some tanks that are so bad diversion isn't enough

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While that is true, there’s no way of knowing if this tank was one of those tanks, and he wasn’t wrong when he said enmity is the responsibility of the entire party (that would also include himself, but I’m speaking purely on the side of DPS that refuse to use their enmity management skills here). And it doesn’t excuse the fact that OP is still in the wrong for blatantly refusing to use Diversion themselves when aggro was apparently already an issue without it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

As for Cleric Stance, well considering they made healer DPS even easier with Stormblood (no need for stance-dancing; all healer damage scales off of MND now), they already realize that this is a playstyle a lot of players enjoy (which is why they removed it, aside from just making it easier overall).

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I'm not sure enjoy is the right word. It's more the battle system for healers is so anemic you need dps for filler than anything. I like healing more outside of normal pve, like eureka or pvp, because the speed of the damage eliminates all the filler dpsing. Spamming stone IV isn't fun gameplay.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I'm not sure enjoy is the right word. It's more the battle system for healers is so anemic you need dps for filler than anything. I like healing more outside of normal pve, like eureka or pvp, because the speed of the damage eliminates all the filler dpsing. Spamming stone IV isn't fun gameplay.

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I’d rather spam Stone IV than be force to stand and wait around for people to take damage, to be quite frank. There’s also more to WHM than just that—you still have DoTs to manage, and the ever-lovely skill Assize to use off-cooldown (unless you’re saving it for an incoming raid-wide damage). Yoshida also explained that the reasoning for removing Cleric Stance/scaling healer DPS off of Mind was because he was aware that people enjoy that gameplay, and wanted to make it simpler (since Cleric Stance was notorious for being over-sensitive to double tapping, and it locked you into it for 5 full seconds). Those were his words, not mine.

Most of the healers that DPS will tell you they do so because standing around and waiting for incoming damage is boring gameplay, and that they actually enjoy contributing to the party in another meaningful way. You’ve read the healer DPS debates. Sure some do to conform to some META, but a lot do because they enjoy it/want to. You’re again applying your definition of “fun” or “interesting” gameplay to everyone—what’s fun (or not fun) for you doesn’t apply to others. Same for what is fun (or not fun) for me. But I’m going off of what countless other healers have said in the myriad of healer DPS debates this forum has seen.

But this thread isn’t about that; it’s about a supposed bad tank who, while he may or may not have actually been bad, was not wrong when he said enmity management is also the responsibility of DPS jobs. Use Diversion. Use Tactician.

I said it because there aren't as many people who like it as you think. Yeah, the game is where everyone has to dps, but I don't think it should be said that it is attractive gameplay to a lot of people. Especially if you come from other games, this game's healing takes a bit of getting used to and is not one of its strongest points.

As for the tank, eh. I'm seen way too many primadonna tanks in DF; usually the first one to abandon anything is a tank, so I kind of lean to the OP a lot more. And again, Lucid dreaming is more valuable for me to restore MP than a enmity down tool, especially if its something where there is a risk of dying or needing to raise others.l The tank if he stays in DPS stance needs to keep an eye on the enmity list and make sure they are using enough enmity combos per the amount of hate the other dps use. If you have to burn tactician early, that means the pty will lose a decent amount of dps too in non-boss situations.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

As for the tank, eh. I'm seen way too many primadonna tanks in DF; usually the first one to abandon anything is a tank, so I kind of lean to the OP a lot more. And again, Lucid dreaming is more valuable for me to restore MP than a enmity down tool, especially if its something where there is a risk of dying or needing to raise others. The tank if he stays in DPS stance needs to keep an eye on the enmity list and make sure they are using enough enmity combos per the amount of hate the other dps use. If you have to burn tactician early, that means the pty will lose a decent amount of dps too.

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As I said, I can understand with regards to Lucid, but you also have to consider the alternative, which will result in you dying more than likely. There could be better ways for healer enmity to be managed—right now, it seemed to only be WHM that struggles with it. AST has built-in enmity quelling in their Sects, and SCH doesn’t suffer as bad because their enmity is split between them and their Fairy.

With regards to the opening post/Tactician debate, if you’re dealing with a single-target (as was the case mentioned explicitly in the OP—it was the final boss of Doma Castle), Tactician will not be a DPS loss for anyone. You ripping aggro and dying, however, will be—both BRD and MCH are very burst heavy, especially in their openers, and sometimes you can rip off of even good tanks if they aren’t expecting your burst to be as high as it was (speaking from experience). In trash-pulls, everyone should be AOEing, so TP should not be an issue—you can generally rotate between Invigorate and Tactician between trash pulls. If it is, then someone isn’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing. The only times where I’ve noticed people struggling with TP are instances where they are the only one actually doing AOE damage, while the others are single-targeting.

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Originally Posted by addz3

Never mind the tank not using an ability created for the job? Wow.

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Funny how you'll blame the tank for not using a tool in his job, but when the healers and dps don't use theirs, it's completely okay.

If you all did use your enmity controlling and still all had more threat then him, then yes it's his fault. If the dps doesn't diversion though, then they're liable to tank. ALL dps have access to some form of enmity control (Even BRD and MCH, even though they're meant for resource help.)

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Originally Posted by addz3

People tank because they want fast queues. Would people stop play tanks because a stance gets taken away or nerfed in dungeon content?

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It's hard enough to convince me to even tank in the first place already, and the ability to max out my dps is what makes them fun and enjoyable when I actually do. Take that away, I'll delete my DRK alt on the spot, because you'd take the only reason I'd play a tank.

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Originally Posted by addz3

This has probably been said a 1000 times but I'm going to say it again. I've just finished doma castle on the leveling roulette and have experienced some of the worst tanking in recent memory. The WAR would not use defiance for the last boss, and when I commented on that fact he says dps should use diversion!? Wtf. When both dps and healer are the top 3 enmity list maybe use the godamn tank stance. This is why you are here...

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Context is important here. Assuming the tank pulled in Defiance and at least did Tomahawk/Heavy Swing + Equilibrium, they should hold aggro without issue unless the DPS aren't using Division/Lucid Dreaming or their gear isn't comparable. Bear in mind, this is absolutely a shared responsibility. Telling a Warrior to sit in Defiance because you can't be bothered to use Diversion is moronic. We're talking over 1,000 raid DPS throw away for literally nothing.

I find that more than not, warriors are the worst tanks for actual tanking in their tank stance. Is there some trait in the warrior tool bag that makes the player an arrogant douche that I wasn't aware of?

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Originally Posted by addz3

I would like to ask SE to take out the dps stance for group play. NERF the shit out of it so it's mainly for solo play like cleric stance back in the day.

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I hope you're ready to wait over an hour for DF queues because the overwhelming majority of tanks will never look at the role again. Without a focus on DPS, tanks and healers have nothing to strive towards. Mitigation, enmity and healing all have a threshold. Once reached, they are entirely redundant. Hence why people focus on their respective damage, especially Warrior. Make the game less damage centric, implement far higher outgoing damage—essentially reward defensive play, and people will adapt more readily. Of course, then you have lesser skilled players crying at how difficult the content is. Which is why dungeons are ultimately brain dead easy.

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Originally Posted by addz3

Save the rhetoric of dps = enmity and dps should manage enmity and all that. We've heard it all before.

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Evidently, you were ignoring it. DPS lose literally nothing pressing Diversion, Lucid Dreaming or Refresh/Tactician. Tanks lose 20%. So no, I am not going to sacrifice thousands of raid damage because you're lazy. Now if the tank sucks despite you utilizing these aforementioned abilities, that's another story.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Lucid dreaming is more valuable for me to restore MP than a enmity down tool, especially if its something where there is a risk of dying or needing to raise others.l The tank if he stays in DPS stance needs to keep an eye on the enmity list and make sure they are using enough enmity combos per the amount of hate the other dps use. If you have to burn tactician early, that means the pty will lose a decent amount of dps too in non-boss situations.

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Using Lucid Dream early, means it will be available earlier. A very common mistake healers make is holding onto it until they're nearly spent on MP, which is terrible usage. I will always get two uses from it unless I'm aoe spamming. As for Tactician, this is scarcely an issue outside boss encounters because tanks typically stay in tank stance longer due to massive pulls. Ironically, dungeons force tank stance more than even Savage due to pull sizes. Kind of ridiculous it takes upwards of 6-10 mobs hitting me before I actually need tank stance consistently active. And this only applies to healers who DPS. If they do nothing but heal, you can and should rotate your stance because the damage simply won't be high enough to kill you, assuming you know what you're doing.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

..your healer doesn't have diversion, they have a tool that refreshes their MP, which they use to offset the expensive cost of aoe dps. if you force me to use it on pull, thats a waste and reduces my dps overall. Using tactician or diversion on pull is a waste cause you need it for bursts, and tactician is clumsy as hell...its prime purpose again is to offset the tp cost of aoe dps. I mean just click tank on while you run, you aren't dpsing the mobs any while you do it. Click it off while at the end of the pull, thats ok, but ugh, i might want to benison or tetra you during a long pull, and no tank stance can mean it comes back to me.

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Use Lucid when your MP dips below 80% or thereabouts. If you actively DPS and don't stand around doing absolutely nothing, you will get the full benefit. And in what universe is Tactician clumsy? Quick Nock (Tactician) -> Quick Nock. If you can't do that...

Benison will not rip from a tank pulling, if you time it after they aoe a pack and keep going. You never Tetra during pulls. Not only is that a complete waste of an oGCD, you'll rip by virtue of overhealing for little to no reason.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

If tanks were never meant to leave tank stance why would they have specific abilities they can only use while not in tank stance?

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She means whoever has the boss' attention should be in tank stance. Or rather that was how the developers envisioned it. I actually believe her because even Xeno talks about how much flack he took for trying to optimize tank DPS as the MT back in ARR. Likewise, JP, apparently, took it as being disrespectful if the MT went into DPS stance or both healers were in Cleric because it was too risky for no reason. Of course, times have since changed and damage has long become the focal point due to, in my opinion, poor design. Healing is absurdly powerful, thus you simply don't need to play defensively. Likewise, content does pitifully low damage relative to the cooldowns available. Even Savage suffers from this to varying extents. Yoshida mentioned in a previous interview his disappointment so few Warriors want to use Defiance. To which I say, "Give me a reason outside bad players or Ultimate. And I will."

Eh, if the tank wasn't holding aggro, then he should have adjusted, and same with the healers and dps.
This is a team game after all.
For example, I heal more and dps less if dps stand in aoes. Is it the dps's responsibility to not stand in aoes? Yes, but healers can flex and make up for their mistakes. Healer over-healing (to be honest even with heal spams, I havn't been able to rip aggro in SB, when I could in HW), then the tank has to tank more, to make up for the healer's mistakes. Healer need mana help? Give them some mana with bard and rdm. Tank not using defensive cooldowns? Healers use shields (where applicable) and keep them topped up at all times. And of course, use emnity reducing abilities before/when you rip aggro from the tank.

That being said, a tank's primary role is keeping emnity. It wouldn't be good form for a healer to dps and let their teammates die because they didn't heal, so tanks should really make sure they are actually tanking the adds comfortably before switching to dps stance.

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Originally Posted by addz3

I find that more than not, warriors are the worst tanks for actual tanking in their tank stance. Is there some trait in the warrior tool bag that makes the player an arrogant douche that I wasn't aware of?

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There are loads of bad players. I've mostly only ever met bad PLD's.

When I play warrior I tend to stay in defiance for monsters and go to deliverance for bosses so I can fellllll cleeeaaave. :)

I find if I swap more often with monsters I have to trust the healer and fight more for aggro as more often than not, the dps don’t bother to manage their aggro. :)

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Funny how you'll blame the tank for not using a tool in his job, but when the healers and dps don't use theirs, it's completely okay.

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For most dps and healers, those tools are not "mandatory", while all of a tank's enmity tools are baked into their kit. Now, I cross both Diversion and Lucid like a good little dps because I run agro happy jobs. But you know what I don't need when I take my RDM into a PotD solo run? Diversion. So here I am in a boss fight in a dungeon with a party and I have Drain instead. Is it my fault for forgetting? Absolutely, for all the good it does the party in the middle of the fight I realized it on. Should the tank still refuse to use their enmity tools in that situation?
Admittedly this is more a complaint about role actions than anything else.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

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That depends on whether or not you actually let the tank know you forgot the skill.
Communication is important, otherwise it's impossible to tell apart someone who forgot to slot Diversion and someone who just plain wouldn't even use it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

That depends on whether or not you actually let the tank know you forgot the skill.
Communication is important, otherwise it's impossible to tell apart someone who forgot to slot Diversion and someone who just plain wouldn't even use it in the first place.

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While I generally agree, most really rotten apples will chew into me even after saying so, no matter that Diversion will be back on the hotbar as soon as the fight's over and I probably spammed Lucid... And that's assuming they don't Shirk me out of spite altogether.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

And that's assuming they don't Shirk me out of spite altogether.

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If a tank shirked you out of spite in a 4-man dungeon they should really think twice about judging others for their cross-role skills :>

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Originally Posted by addz3

/sigh

I'm guessing your a warrior who just loves to dps. Frankly idc what you or other tanks do as long as they control enmity, try and get off your pedestal.

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I sure am, and if even half the tanks out there were as entitled and DPS-happy as me instead of getting pushed around into an unfun playstyle by people who can't be bothered to use tools at their disposal to help, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a tank shortage in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

I sure am, and if even half the tanks out there were as entitled and DPS-happy as me instead of getting pushed around into an unfun playstyle by people who can't be bothered to use tools at their disposal to help, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a tank shortage in the first place.

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Solution: Delete Shield Oath, Grit, and Defiance. Make it so the only stance is DPS stance. Problem solved. No more tank-stance happy tanks. :D

(N.B. I am not being serious here)

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Removing DPS stance in group content will also cause issues in 8-man and 24-man content, as there can only be one Main Tank at a time. What about the OTs? Are they to just not use a stance? They aren’t needed in terms of main tanking, and usually exist for things like tank swaps, adds, shared busters, taking over in the sad even the MT dies (which may or may not even happen), or Provoke+Shirking. Why not let them utilitize a DPS stance since that’s the majority of why they’re there anyways—they aren’t main-tanking, so they might as well deal damage.

As for Cleric Stance, well considering they made healer DPS even easier with Stormblood (no need for stance-dancing; all healer damage scales off of MND now), they already realize that this is a playstyle a lot of players enjoy (which is why they removed it, aside from just making it easier overall). After you’ve established hate and healed all there is to heal, there is nothing better to do than contribute to DPS. You certainly don’t stand around; I don’t know how people can do that because I personally find it incredibly boring to just wait for people to take damage.

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The developers intent is pretty clear. They removed Cleric Stance because it was not being used correctly, extremely error prone, not lag friendly, and was a large source of hostility and numerous "lazy healer/heal-only" arguments from players that use raider meta on all content. It was only supposed to be used for Solo play, hence why skills were balanced that way. So when they got rid of it, they rebalanced the healer DPS skills so that they're permanently nerfed relative to a DPS player, and thus playing solo content now takes twice as long, and things like Eureka and PotD are generally a pain to solo. MSQ solo content is balanced against a healer being able to clear it.

The Tank stance is different, the intent is to be able to tank swap. All 4-player content the tank should be in tank stance the entire time, by design. There are practical reasons why you'd want to turn off tank stance, and that is mostly due to overgearing. The tank storylines don't even need you to be in tank stance. For all intents you can play the MSQ exactly the same as a DPS player would, and it would be a faceroll due to wearing better gear.

SE has no way to "get rid of tank stance" like they would cleric stance, because then there would be no way to invoke the tank swap mechanic. Likewise, you can usually get past all trash mobs in duties without the tank by doing babypulls, and some bosses that don't have tankbuster mechanics can be tanked by the healer spamming their basic heal repeatedly, since they will have always have all the enmity without the tank.

What SE could do in the same idea of getting rid of tank stance dance is by removing the ability to switch out of tank stance unless their HP is full (switching into tank stance would always be possible.) That ensures that the player taking damage doesn't turn tank stance off until they've stopped taking damage and another player has taken enmity from them. But that's probably just more annoying than useful.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I said it because there aren't as many people who like it as you think. Yeah, the game is where everyone has to dps, but I don't think it should be said that it is attractive gameplay to a lot of people. Especially if you come from other games, this game's healing takes a bit of getting used to and is not one of its strongest points.

As for the tank, eh. I'm seen way too many primadonna tanks in DF; usually the first one to abandon anything is a tank, so I kind of lean to the OP a lot more. And again, Lucid dreaming is more valuable for me to restore MP than a enmity down tool, especially if its something where there is a risk of dying or needing to raise others.l The tank if he stays in DPS stance needs to keep an eye on the enmity list and make sure they are using enough enmity combos per the amount of hate the other dps use. If you have to burn tactician early, that means the pty will lose a decent amount of dps too in non-boss situations.

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This is not a game where everyone has to DPS, that is just raider meta being taken too seriously. The design is pretty clear. Yoshi-P stated that they design every fight without healer DPS taken into account. They removed the bonus points with this intent as well, and the ability to put "wrong materia" on gear was also nerfed so that tanks can't be better DPS.

The worst thing this game did was come out with PotD with no role composition requirement. This has resulted in players being told to level in PotD by DPS zerging their way through the floors and not really being able to use more than their two basic DPS skills since the mobs are all made of tissue paper. Then when it comes to actual content, surprise, they have to do more than press two buttons.

If you're playing the roles as designed, the enmity reduction skills are things that you shouldn't need to use, because you only get to use them once then they're on a cooldown, where as the tank's basic skills all generate more enmity than DPS players basic skills. Hence they are designed for a mechanic where the tank can not get enmity immediately (Eg add phases), and not for the tank to sit there in DPS stance to minmax their DPS. If a tank is telling you to use your enmity reduction skills in lieu of them actually tanking, then the tank is a bad tank. The only bad tanks I run into are those that are undergeared, because, again, PotD.

That's why players need to be careful what they ask for, because if they get it, will come at the expense of a rebalance of their other skills so the net result is no additional DPS. I'm an advocate that players should be allowed to play their roles (eg tank, healer or dps) without having their arms twisted by players who want to minmax their dps. That means that actions that are designed for solo play are not be necessary during party play if players are actually playing their roles.

The minute you start telling players to play a role in a way they didn't sign up for, is the minute they stop playing that content, and hence why there is a perpetual shortage of tanks, and the number of actually good tanks is few and far between (the leveling queue is pretty much guaranteed the worst tanks from players who want to farm cracked clusters.) That minmax DPS meta does not work for tanks, and does not work for healers, and thus if you want a tank or healer in the party, just be quiet and take when you get from the duty finder.

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

You are totally right and we fully agree. However go back and read op's post again, what he was saying is: I met a bad tank in dungeon so just nerf the tank DPS stance and make all tanks play the way I want them to be...and if a dps (lol OP?) is bad at least he's trying to do his role and dps...badly (pathetic) and I don't care about others.

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Huh? That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that ifvtank stances were changed we could get away with this must max dps over controlling enmity that a lot if tanks have (imo mostly warriors). Most of the time I tank, all 3 are maxed with 360 gear and I manage to hold hate and push dps as much as I can. Unfortunately some just prefer to see dps rather than fulfill their primary role. Secondly diversion isn't really the be all and end all for enmity control. It's like a 2 min CD isn't it? And any dps is going to out dps a tank, that's why they have enmity boosting combos and stances. If they aren't used then they are a bad tank. End off.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

I have seen far too many tanks get killed in situations where the extra mitigation from tank stance would have saved them.
But nope, it's better to die than to compromise your damage output apparantly.

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This is what I'm trying to say.

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Originally Posted by addz3

If they aren't used then they are a bad tank. End off.

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If you use it too much you're a bad tank.
There's very rarely a need to use your tank stance outside of your rotation, believe it or not tanks also have enmity boosting skills which can be used outside of tank stance and in Warrior's case are actually part of their main DPS rotation (which is why they end up being the best main tank out of the three).

Tank stance and aggro combos should be a last resort in case things go haywire, not a part of your main rotation.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Funny how you'll blame the tank for not using a tool in his job, but when the healers and dps don't use theirs, it's completely okay.

If you all did use your enmity controlling and still all had more threat then him, then yes it's his fault. If the dps doesn't diversion though, then they're liable to tank. ALL dps have access to some form of enmity control (Even BRD and MCH, even though they're meant for resource help.)



It's hard enough to convince me to even tank in the first place already, and the ability to max out my dps is what makes them fun and enjoyable when I actually do. Take that away, I'll delete my DRK alt on the spot, because you'd take the only reason I'd play a tank.

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Not at one point have I said enmity isn't a group thing or that dps and healer weren't using their enmity abilities. They were as was I.


So you play tank to max dps? Excellent. Imo it sounds like you prefer dps and short queues, that's why you tank. And again imo that attitude is what's wrong with tanks who care more about dps than their primarru role. I have no problem with tanks who can do both, just those that sacrifice enmity control to max dps. It's not helpful for the actual dps to lose dps so the tank can knock out a bit. It's counter productive....

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Originally Posted by Ameela

If a tank shirked you out of spite in a 4-man dungeon they should really think twice about judging others for their cross-role skills :>



I sure am, and if even half the tanks out there were as entitled and DPS-happy as me instead of getting pushed around into an unfun playstyle by people who can't be bothered to use tools at their disposal to help, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a tank shortage in the first place.

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To much assumption on your behalf. Never said others weren't using their tool kit. Just the warrior

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The Tank stance is different, the intent is to be able to tank swap.

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Actually, I think the stances for tank were designed the same as Cleric Stance. Keeping a somehow low DPS in group content while not making solo content too tedious.

For tank swap, now that you have Provoke, Shirk, and no reason to ever use any enmity enhanced WS when you're not tanking, swapping is not really a problem even if both tanks use their stance.