Trying to understand the complaints about DRK

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Not my ideas, but:

DA affect GCDs only. This would help reduce double-weaving of oGCDs which some people have problems with depending on latency, and is a somewhat contradictory design considering the main effect of Blood Weapon. (oh you like double weave? How about double weave with HASTE lol)

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If you have been following, we are currently talking about how to make the DA effects more impactful without breaking balance.

What you are talking about pretty much amounts to “I’m too slow to push buttons, please fix”.

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Originally Posted by Zeyd

If you have been following, we are currently talking about how to make the DA effects more impactful without breaking balance.

What you are talking about pretty much amounts to “I’m too slow to push buttons, please fix”.

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I think its pretty reasonable. Nothing he said was wrong. Blood weapon on a job that needs to double weave like hell is very counter intuitive for high ping players. DA can be more impactful while still lasting for several GCD's.

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Originally Posted by Saeno

I think its pretty reasonable. Nothing he said was wrong. Blood weapon on a job that needs to double weave like hell is very counter intuitive for high ping players. DA can be more impactful while still lasting for several GCD's.

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Just to add on to this, having a GCD version of Dark Arts also allows freedom to do things like increase the Haste effect on Dark arts, which right now such a haste buff is probably not viable with double weaving.

As far as dark arts effects that would have meaning without potency: Mana cost reduction buff. On a third combo you could add a mana cost reduction that lasts for x duration as a dark arts effect. It's something you will want to manage and keep up when spending mana heavily and gives dark knight a small buff while giving some variation in rotation. It isn't potency, but still very desirable.

Its something you would want to have up for raid buffs or whenever you are ready to spend lots of mana, which plays into the dark knight game play, and a button you want to avoid hitting during raid buffs, since it could have 0 potency added of if you are running dry on mana. Such a buff, lowering your mana costs by x%, means it would break even in 100/x dark arts and would be a gain on any more dark arts used or combinations of dark arts and TBN. Its a flexible effect that centers around mana management, but is not necessarily a 100% uptime buff as it depends on your mana playstyle.

At the same time if you are mana floored, then this may not be a buff you want to put up immediately as you may not be able to make the most out of it.

While the changes have made Dark Knight feel and play better, it doesn't change the baseline problem that it's shallow, but that's hardly just a Dark Knight problem.

Drks problem is a mixture of bad synergy.

It has an attack speed increase buff with forced double weaves, any future instant skills with desired affects or high damage boosts will add more forced double weaves exasperating the issue.

It has a invuln skill that requires healing but has no self healing skills, an iconic hp drain skill for drk is being used as a mage role skill collecting dust.

For the amount of effort required to perform the blood weapon, maximize gcds and proper cooldown rotation with doubleweave perfection... its not feeling rewarding in terms of dps output.

All in all, unless you enjoy the small rush from bloodweapon or the aesthetics/lore of drk, it doesnt have much going for it.

I got alot more i would say about drk but i feel like the 3 i listed are its core issues for me.

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Originally Posted by Zeyd

If you have been following, we are currently talking about how to make the DA effects more impactful without breaking balance.

What you are talking about pretty much amounts to “I’m too slow to push buttons, please fix”.

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Indeed, and I considered adding the caveat that if you are the type of player that just likes mashing buttons then making it so there are less buttons to mash would be a negative change for you.

It seems you're still having a hard time with this. Let me share a piece of my past:

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It's fairly obvious that SE intended to decrease tank damage output. From the locking of accessories to removal of abilities like Internal Release to the changing of the damage formula itself. The addition of a "cost" for swapping stances is being perceived as punishment, but in reality it's congruent with the additional changes they made.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4294874

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This was back before they made the initial changes to WAR about beast gauge halving upon stance change. I was very adamant about defending the devs decision to make changes to reduce tank dps, and tried to convince others it was in line with their objectives. Needless to say the community at large wanted the change, and got the change, and War basically skyrocketed from there in to the most desirable tank.

So, I was once wrong about how I felt War should be changed. And in retrospect it was a pretty terrible design choice, I can't imagine having to prog NeoExdeath like with the beast gauge like that. War was undeniably better after that change and I can't believe I was trying to argue against it.

I bring this up to maybe help open your mind a little bit, most of these guys are spot on in their assessment and suggestions. Take away the DA spam, and yea it may make DRK feel a little slower but that doesn't necessarily mean it will be weaker.

DRK is on wierd spot right now compare to HW.SE just dont know what to do with right now except giving band aids.They lost so much good abilities on cross classes & concept got rushed as hell.so it kinda feels of half baked job.

SE fix will them or pay more attention on them on next expansion. PLD is living proof got turd to omg so good. HW to SB

Yeah but that was in part due to SE final capitalizing on what a Paladin is supposed to be in a party. It's a tank that protects everybody and keeps the party safe with it's shield and moves like PoA, Clemency and Divine Veil are a few of its tools that reinforce that feeling of being a "holy stalwart knight". The same could be said for WAR, where the idea of going berserk and releasing your "inner beast" is heavily capitalized on since 3.0 where it achieved god tier. DRK has an identity crisis and that's it. Its tool kit is actually pretty good with my main gripes revolving around TBN and the lack of a 3rd combo tree. DRK just feels like a wannabe WAR with less impressive attack and defensive cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

DRK is on wierd spot right now compare to HW.

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Don't pretend DRK wasn't in a weird spot back in HW. Dark Dance was a joke of a cooldown, and losing it in exchanged for a GUARANTEED reprisal is a generous trade.

DRK had issues with synergy. DADD did not mix with blood price, which was more crucial back then seeing as you needed to use it regardless of stance, and the same could be said of DADP.

That said, after removing the rose-tinted glasses you have an image of a job that's been properly re-evaluated after addressing the issues that made it a fixed slot in parties, and also addresses the issues of inflexible mitigation thanks to TBN.

Any day, SB DRK over HW DRK.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

DRK had issues with synergy. DADD did not mix with blood price, which was more crucial back then seeing as you needed to use it regardless of stance, and the same could be said of DADP.

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You're right in that DADD and DADP had no synergy with BP in HW, but you're forgetting (or just don't realize) that they had synergy with each other and were best used at the end of the BP window as opposed to during it. This is what people are complaining about when they say that drk is not rewarding anymore. Back in HW you really had to understand your toolkit on a deeper level to attain satisfying results. But once you did, you felt like a freaking god. People were spouting that same synergy issue back in HW and it really makes me think that some people just didn't understand how and when these CD's were supposed to be used. I'm not saying that HW didnt have problems, but DADD and DADP were not part of said problems. The RNG aspect of reprisal was weird, I'll be honest. But if anything the weird part was gating the debuff behind an RNG skill, not necessarily the skill itself.
And I'm sorry, but I will disagree on the "proper re-evaluation" bit. All we have now is a job with a monotonous rotation and an identity that has been properly gutted more than anything. If you like SB drk, more power to you. Personally, spamming the same combo over and over again isn't what I would call rewarding. In fact, OP mentioned something about drk's having "choice" nowadays? I'm truly interested in what these "choices" are, because I have yet to find any measure of "choice" in the current drk rotation.

Properly evaluated is not the phrase I would use here. I would instead use heavy handed. I also don’t understand where people get this idea that DRK flowed perfectly together in Heavensward either, but the issue is that dysfunction was traded for monotony. The rotation is boring without a third combo, why was this removed in the first place? Why does Syphon Strike have a DA effect, its unneeded and mucks up double weaving. Having an entire combo with no DA effects on it is what made double weaving the non-RNG effects manageable with a 10% haste increase. Now with those RNG effects gone and actual DA effects on all of the ogcds aside from Salted, now is the time to bring that third combo back and the MP drain. There is no reason as to why DP is not a single target increase like it was back in HW and instead be this situational. Just half the mp cost and call it a day. Bringing back certain old effects and number balance is a lot simpler than having to wait for an entire rework that is not needed.

Theres nothing complex about this, just bring back the mp drain, a third combo that ONLY has more potency than Soul Eater, half the mp cost on DP, and get rid of the DA and Grit effect on SS, make BP generate mp again but leave it locked behind Grit. I would also like to see Soul Eater heal outside of Grit in the same way Storm’s Path does, but I think the class’ defensives are fine as is, I’d say stick it behind a DA effect if anything.

Also as aside, you comboed DADD and DADP in dungeons for max lolrespect and never used them unless when the unholy BP and DAAD combo was on cd. DD was just filler on bosses and was only really good in dungeons. BP was used more for ignoring cds and tank strance outright and just spamming DAAD out of grit, which was a problem unto itself. Or you just used it along with blood weapon while main tanking bosses for DA uses, which was never really an issue. Also DRK being taken over a PLD was down to the simple fact that PLD was more dysfunctional than DRK and WAR had 100% uptime on 10% dmg /INT down and both brought the dps.

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Originally Posted by Insanecell

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We don't need DP to be half the cost it currently is. As it stands, it's fine. See, DP worked as it was in HW not because it was a dps gain over DA, but because it was mana efficient. The name of the game back in HW was to keep from bottoming out, while maintaining respectable dps. because DP wasn't far off from DA in potency, it was worth using because doing so meant prolonging hitting 0 mp. But today, that issue is irrelevant when the concern has now shifted to keep from overflowing. It wouldn't serve us to have a weaker DA substitute on a 1 minute cooldown. What it does do, however, is now become a reliable method of snap aggro on adds, and since it's not meant to be used on cooldown, it can be used as needed, and that sort of convenience is just what makes good design.

Apologies for the late response. DP worked in HW because it was not only a ST dps gain, it was mana efficient, it was 150 potency for half the cost of a DA without having to DA it. Now it has been rendered situational due to the fact it costs the same as a DA but does not have the same potency gain as a DA, which is a massive downgrade, but then again, I see DRK as a whole right now as a massive downgrade.

So I don’t find myself agreeing with this being called good design, because the problem is that current raid tiers and ability make up do not support its current playstyle. The only boss that does is Guardian since it’s the only fight with consistent add uptime throughout the fight. Or you could use it if no classes that bring slashing are in your group. So even if the current form of the ability has good design due to its multiple uses, there is no foundational support for it in the content that matters so it gets side lined as a situational ability, which I thought was the point of the ability pruning in the first place. So in current gameplay, I think removing Slashing would work better than halving its mp cost. That way it does have all of the utility you describe and it gains some in the sense that you can just pop it to see a different animation on a fight that has no adds or to prevent your self from overflowing on mp.

Now in my argument, I wanted DRK to just flat out go back to HW with mp management. I would argue that not wanting to overflow and not wanting to bottom out on mp was way more engaging, and DP fit alot better back then. But that was then and this is now, and I don't think Square has any plans to go back to the old way of mp management.

Imo 3.x DRK was the perfect pace

The current pace isnt that much different. Its just that the dps rotation is dull.

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Originally Posted by Insanecell

Apologies for the late response. DP worked in HW because it was not only a ST dps gain, it was mana efficient, it was 150 potency for half the cost of a DA without having to DA it. Now it has been rendered situational due to the fact it costs the same as a DA but does not have the same potency gain as a DA.

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What? It's identical potency for identical cost, but also has an enmity modifier (which therefore amounts to higher relative value when MTing). It's one of the best rotational spender uses for DA... CnS, DP, and Plunge should all be DA'd, and if ever PS is used, it should also be DA'ed. Quietus at 3+ targets should be DAed. The only lackluster ones are actually SS, SE, and BS.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What? It's identical potency for identical cost, but also has an enmity modifier (which therefore amounts to higher relative value when MTing). It's one of the best rotational spender uses for DA... CnS, DP, and Plunge should all be DA'd, and if ever PS is used, it should also be DA'ed. Quietus at 3+ targets should be DAed. The only lackluster ones are actually SS, SE, and BS.

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It's magic, so doesn't get the slashing bonus.

CNS is the only requirement. Plunge is priority if you're the target. DP on two targets or more. Otherwise DA dump in SS/SE. DA Quietus is to prevent overcapping mostly.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What? It's identical potency for identical cost, but also has an enmity modifier (which therefore amounts to higher relative value when MTing). It's one of the best rotational spender uses for DA... CnS, DP, and Plunge should all be DA'd, and if ever PS is used, it should also be DA'ed. Quietus at 3+ targets should be DAed. The only lackluster ones are actually SS, SE, and BS.

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DP does not benefit from slashing debuff, meaning its effective potency is a bit lower than any offensive use of DA. Therefore, DP use in single target is situational, depending on whether slashing debuff is available and how valuable enmity is to you.

EDIT: Damn, beaten to the punch.

The fact that DA Plunge is available on half the recast and does benefit from slashing makes single target DP a questionable choice as an enmity grab. As long as 100% uptime buffs like slashing and piercing exist, jobs with hybrid damage types are going to lose out.

So are we going to pretend DRK is still bad even though it achieved world first on the hardest, most relevant content AGAIN?

No one say is bad, is just worse compared to the other 2, viable and balanced are 2 diferent things.

If the boss has a rather lenient dps check and not enough TB to make any tank in a bad position you can effectively take any of them without havikg a negative impact.

Also, the fight doesn't seem to have any raid wide dmg that hit hard enough to make divine ciel or the war one mandatory

So yeah, even if it's the "less good" if the fight is all about execution that 1% less dps / tankiness becomes irrelevant

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

If the boss has a rather lenient dps check and not enough TB to make any tank in a bad position you can effectively take any of them without havikg a negative impact.

Also, the fight doesn't seem to have any raid wide dmg that hit hard enough to make divine ciel or the war one mandatory

So yeah, even if it's the "less good" if the fight is all about execution that 1% less dps / tankiness becomes irrelevant

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Those two "IF's" are the problem. Making DRK a little less situational would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

So are we going to pretend DRK is still bad even though it achieved world first on the hardest, most relevant content AGAIN?

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Oh look, its your favorite crutch argument point back up, AGAIN.

The [DARK ARTS] main [DARK ARTS] issue [DARK ARTS] is [DARK ARTS] Dark [DARK ARTS] Arts [DARK ARTS] spam.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Oh look, its your favorite crutch argument point back up, AGAIN.

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It doesn't mean drk is perfect, but it does show that it is viable and puts some perspective on 'how bad' drk is. Being worse than the other two tanks doesn't toss the class in the dumpster when the degree of which it is behind is very slight. If it can clear the toughest of the tough fights and not hold back an A list team from being world 1st multiple times, then the job isn't THAT bad when look at performance. Multiple/back to back world 1sts don't mean drk has zero issues of any kind, but it does show that the issues (performance wise) are not terribly impactful. If they were, they would show cracks at the high end optimization in these kinds of attempts. Performance power is also a very different issue than 'fun' or 'clunky' complaints. But when a job can keep up with the best of the best, then it is a functional, viable job. Aesthetics are a whole different ball game.

DRK cleared content that goes against my "drk is bad!" narrative...i demand immediate nerfs to drk!

I think the biggest problem for me now is usability. Theoretically (and this was true before 4.3 too), if Dark Knight performed at its totally optimal level, hitting every single TBN, planning every cooldown perfectly, they'd be a little less damage and defensive capability than the other two tanks. A little. Defense potentially a wash in some fights now. But how many Dark Knights are bothering to play at this super optimal ultimate clearing level when it's still just not rewarding? It's doable, sure, but why not put that effort into Paladin/Warrior instead? And how many of the vast majority of Dark Knights struggle to reach this optimal playstyle that seems to conflict with a lot of its kit, with dark arts spam and crack TBN timing to their mathematical precision?

The way I feel is, the amount of work a Paladin and Warrior puts into a fight helps them excel, the amount of work a Dark Knight has to put into a fight just establishes a baseline for them to qualify as a tank. I'm hopeful for once that this kind of interaction is what is under the magnifying glass when they're talking about more long term reworking.

It's kind of a...strawman to claim that people supporting Dark Knight changes are just whining that the job is unplayable and irredeemable. It's their experience playing the job that overall leaves something to be desired and this does incorporate performance, playstyle, and design. It matters when talking about the potential evolution of a class and why pointing to proof that their straight numbers check out in something a fraction of a fraction of people will ever experience, let alone clear, isn't really being constructive.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Oh look, its your favorite crutch argument point back up, AGAIN.

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Nice rebuttal, OH WAIT

*clears content*
DRK is fine guys

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Also, the fight doesn't seem to have any raid wide dmg that hit hard enough to make divine ciel or the war one mandatory

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Name just ONE (1) fight where DV and SiO are absolutely mandatory. Protip: YOU CAN'T!

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Name just ONE (1) fight where DV and SiO are absolutely mandatory. Protip: YOU CAN'T!

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you can LB cheesing with DV and SiO so are mandatory in any speedrunning comp, for no mention they value is more high on progresion specially on first weeks where shielding party reduce the risk of someone dying with the low HP the raid have due gear but that's not mandatory at all but very very helpfull.

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Originally Posted by Aana

It doesn't mean drk is perfect, but it does show that it is viable and puts some perspective on 'how bad' drk is. Being worse than the other two tanks doesn't toss the class in the dumpster when the degree of which it is behind is very slight. If it can clear the toughest of the tough fights and not hold back an A list team from being world 1st multiple times, then the job isn't THAT bad when look at performance. Multiple/back to back world 1sts don't mean drk has zero issues of any kind, but it does show that the issues (performance wise) are not terribly impactful. If they were, they would show cracks at the high end optimization in these kinds of attempts. Performance power is also a very different issue than 'fun' or 'clunky' complaints. But when a job can keep up with the best of the best, then it is a functional, viable job. Aesthetics are a whole different ball game.

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I don't think you need to go verbose to state what is a given. The fact that 2-3 people here keep posting "DRK is fine" and then say "it has 2 world firsts on ultimate" is at the end a champion belt for the player, not the job. Because the player likes playing the class and knows how to make due with its weaknesses just like everyone who plays the game looks to do the same.

But yeah, lets devolve this conversation to the usual "but x job is fine because it cleared this" or "maybe the job isn't for you" topic; since that's all we're capable of doing.

I must admit I have some trouble understanding all the complains.

DRK hasn't as much damage and party support than WAR and PLD, that's a fact. In return, it has a very powerful defensive kit and everyone seems to be forgetting this.

Even if it is a little bit below the 2 other tanks, it still is capable of clearing content just as fine. Even the most difficult content ever released on this game. People make it sound like you're going with a handicap if you choose a DRK instead of a WAR. Those differences are so small that you wouldn't even notice it, if the hardest content you do is dungeons and 24-players raids.

People are clearing extreme primals, savage raids, hell, even ultimate coil / ultima, and tell you that DRK is fine. Not perfect, fine. Though we still argue over 200 DPS difference and how that would fix DRK's lack of utility (Spoilers: it won't fix anything).

At this point, we would need a complete rework of the job to change its gameplay. Because it's DRK's gameplay that bothers people (DA spam ?), not viability or balance. Current DRK iteration is perfectly viable in all the content, and really close to the 2 other tanks balance-wise.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

I don't think you need to go verbose to state what is a given. The fact that 2-3 people here keep posting "DRK is fine" and then say "it has 2 world firsts on ultimate" is at the end a champion belt for the player, not the job. Because the player likes playing the class and knows how to make due with its weaknesses just like everyone who plays the game looks to do the same.

But yeah, lets devolve this conversation to the usual "but x job is fine because it cleared this" or "maybe the job isn't for you" topic; since that's all we're capable of doing.

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Because like most things, the truth is in the middle, and heaven forbid the internet acknowledge nuance. Anyone who waltzes in saying "Drk 1st=Drk fine" is being 1 dimensional and dumb. Similarly, you cant counter a dumb idea with another dumb idea by saying "World 1st means nothing" because that's absurd too. If drk was a serious liability, then it would have held back a group that made IRL sacrifices just to attempt it, and that wouldn't last long. World 1st point out that the extreme end of "Drk is broken dumpster trash" is BS. World 1st isn't a club to bludgeon people with to stfu, and you cant just ignore it claiming 100% player skill. It defines a lower bound to 'how bad' a job is. Not so bad it cant be world 1st.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

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gameplay is what bother many people yes, but balance wise idk you but for me being the worse on everything feels bad even if is a small diference its just feels bad you dont excell on anything, not even comparable, you are literally worse, yes you can clear content, yes you can be 1º world if you want, but that never will change when you look other tanks they make they raids go much more smoother thanks to all what they have, balance dont have to mean being meta either, WAR and PLD can be perfectly the speedrun meta as are right now but if DRK just have the best dps then yeah you see you are not meta for reasons but you have a niche as a tank, something that make you feel unique.

you say a powerful defensive kit but DRK dont excell much more that the other 2 in that field either, if we put a WAR using innerbeast they mitigate more that DRK, but thats not the matter, looks like some forget mitigation in this game at certain point is meaningless, specially personal mitigation, and yeah drk can mitigate ST busters pretty well now but for what?, we dont save healers GCD for that, we have bigger cushion on magic fights but is nothing that the other 2 cant handle either for no mention we dont have any pasive mitigation-self healing outside of grit (i dont count sole survivior bcs you have little control to sinc the heal and abysall is aoe).

gameplay wise DRK is pretty funtional, most ppl like the old HW style me include but actual gameplay is not specially clunky at all compared to other jobs,i actually like it, the gameplay argument is reinforced by the balance situation, if DRK was perfect balance betwen the other 2 gameplay complains will be less severe bcs we will pass from i work a lot more harder to do less to i work harder but i get this and this and this, is not perfect but feels good and gameplay reworks can be wait for 5.0

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Originally Posted by Aana

Because like most things, the truth is in the middle, and heaven forbid the internet acknowledge nuance. Anyone who waltzes in saying "Drk 1st=Drk fine" is being 1 dimensional and dumb. Similarly, you cant counter a dumb idea with another dumb idea by saying "World 1st means nothing" because that's absurd too. If drk was a serious liability, then it would have held back a group that made IRL sacrifices just to attempt it, and that wouldn't last long. World 1st point out that the extreme end of "Drk is broken dumpster trash" is BS. World 1st isn't a club to bludgeon people with to stfu, and you cant just ignore it claiming 100% player skill. It defines a lower bound to 'how bad' a job is. Not so bad it cant be world 1st.

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The fact we're still on the topic of "viable" 8 pages in shows we're not on the same page of the argument. The truth has always been the job is viable, it lacked certain buffs that were nice qols recently but it was never about "being unable to clear x". It proved its viable on the first crutch argument (UCOB) and it proves it now(UWU), but again, are the complaints actually sustained in the lack of viability? or are they really about gameplay?

Is it viable even though its gameplay is lacking? That is the rhetorical question,the current status and has been the status of DRK since 4.0. And that we're trying to branch out nuance on a point that is not only a given (being viable, because every job is) it brings nothing to move forward on what was asked and acknowledged by the team and that we at this point can only expect happen in 5.0.

Are the complaints justified? About as justified as the opinions of those who oppose it. But if your only argument is "viable" (which hasn't been the point for a good portion of those talking about DRK and its issues) then we'll still be here, with the same points ad nauseaum.

Is it really more lacking in gameplay than Warrior? I mean, at least you get more than one button to push for burst.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Is it really more lacking in gameplay than Warrior? I mean, at least you get more than one button to push for burst.

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I personally think every job could use more depth. Dark Knight is just one of the more grievous offenders.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Is it really more lacking in gameplay than Warrior? I mean, at least you get more than one button to push for burst.

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Pretty much this. SE has actively been dumbing down, simplifying, and streamlining classes, especially tanks in SB. It's one of their stated goals in developing SB. They think the HW rotations were to complex and to punishing to screw up. Dot's maintenance was pruned across the board. Personal buffs were made easier to maintain (blood of the dragon, enochian, darkside, Storm's eye, etc) and less punishing to screw up (heavy thrust, storms eye again, positionals in general, etc).

So yes. Viable is important because we aren't going to get complex Drk back. Just like we aren't getting rigid but rewarding War zerk/IR gameplay back anymore than Drg and Mnk are going back to struggling to maintain buffs with small room for error.

Balanced/Viable are much more specific and measureable goals. But as Drk has improved patch by patch, the calls for balance/power have slowly transitioned into gameplay complaints. 'Gameplay is lacking' is both unspecific and highly subjective. There are a lot of happy war's hitting 1 button. There are a lot of happy drks out there spamming DA. But it also applies to virtually every job SE has smashed down into play doh simplicity. This was intentional. They WANT jobs to be simple and effective. But SE would have to do a 180 on the simplification path they've chosen. Moving away from HW drk (and other jobs) was part of the plan all along. If that's the gameplay you liked then your stuck in a bad spot, just like me and the other war's that don't care for memeCleave spam. But at least the power levels are evening out.

Gameplay is subjective. Some love, some hate and that will never change. But viable and balanced is something we can all appreciate and push for.