(Rant Post) Why Does It Feel Like Giving Advice Is Evil?

I can see many reasons why some might bristle at getting unsolicited advice, and some of those I can understand. You've essentially got some stranger coming up to you and telling you you're doing something wrong in front of between 2 and 22 other people. Of course that's going to make some people uncomfortable. You don't know them, and they don't know you. Are you being genuinely helpful, or are you just some pretentious know-it-all flexing your own ego? How would they know? Also, why are they failing? Is it assumed that everyone who screws up is just not trying hard enough or just didn't study hard enough? That may be the most likely possibility, but do you really know?

I've personally never had anyone snap at me over giving advice, which I think has a lot to do with my approach and how I word things. As others have said, tone and intent are quite challenging to figure out with text. There are definitely ways you can word things to make them not sound like an attack.

Another thing, I think a lot who have complained about this topic do not realize how they come across. There are a couple of posters who spring to mind who have questioned why someone got on their case after giving advice, even though they swore it was nice! To me, they always come off like short-tempered teenagers on the forums who start raging at the drop of a hat, and so if they handled their advice in the same manner? No wonder someone got pissy with them.

Perhaps I've just been lucky and have not run into that person who is ready to snap, perhaps my time will come. However, if someone is constantly getting yelled at over giving advice, it may be time to reevaluate how you are giving that advice.

I main drg and you or anyone else had every right to tell that guy about using those skills, or even kick him for not using them. Those two skills are main components to our rotation.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

it may be time to reevaluate how you are giving that advice.

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You only have to read a few of the posts here to see why people don't appreciate their "advice".


first, they have started in the mood for a fight. second, they have demands and orders, not advice or suggestions.



and lastly, they assume everyone has the same bad attitude they do, everyone else is quite obviously inferior, and that anything anyone else contributes (even a complement) is worth nothing.

I go with the following approach every time I see the New Player notification at the beginning of DF content.
If the person says "Hi, first time here, I need advise." - the door is open for any explanation, mechanics or skills.
If the person says "Hi, first time here." - the door is open for any mechanics explanation.
If the person says "Hi" or nothing - the door is closed until we wipe. Or, that player repeatedly dies to a mechanic.

I tend to not say much, unless people ask for advice/help(most of the time when I enter a mentor roulette - unless it's a guildhest that needs no explaining - I will state that if they want help, just let me know and I will be glad to help, otherwise I keep quiet unless we wipe too many times - which is hard when I do my mentor roulettes as an AST anyway). Most of the time people like to go in blind, and figure things out for themselves. If I see them constantly messing something up, I will ask if they want pointer/tips, and if they don't respond/say they don't, then that's that, and I will leave them dead(if I'm able to res) so they can watch the fight and get an idea of the mechanics(only after multiple deaths in the same fight though).

Is it really that surprising? It's no different than walking up to a stranger in the real world and saying, "You know, if you did it this way you ...". You may get a positive response, or you may get a negative one. It's usually more of the latter, though, and I wouldn't blame them one bit. Unless I am seeking advice, I very rarely want any one else's input. Quite honestly, unsolicited advice does border on rudeness.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Quite honestly, unsolicited advice does border on rudeness.

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Unsolicited advice happens when you are incompetent at your job. Easiest way to avoid these occurrences is to be competent.

Being dead weight and causing wipes thus wasting time and effort is a hell of a lot more rude than being told what to do.

I've given up on giving any advice to randoms. Unless we can't clear the conten because of them, I'm just goi to ignore that BLM spamming Freeze, it's not like I'll have to deal with them again.
Besides, when you do give advice you either get insulted for being an "elitist" or just straight out ignored.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Unsolicited advice happens when you are incompetent at your job. Easiest way to avoid these occurrences is to be competent.

Being dead weight and causing wipes thus wasting time and effort is a hell of a lot more rude than being told what to do.

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Everyone learns at their own pace and in their own way. And then on top of that you will always have varying degrees of skill when grouped with random people. I highly doubt most people aim to be as horrible as possible in their jobs.

If you go into an encounter and instantly have a chip on your shoulder towards those less skilled, you're setting yourself up for a bad time (and probably the poor saps stuck with you).

If you want perfect runs, make your own static and do everything with them. Otherwise learn to adapt and be civil to your fellow players.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Is it really that surprising? It's no different than walking up to a stranger in the real world and saying, "You know, if you did it this way you ...". You may get a positive response, or you may get a negative one. It's usually more of the latter, though, and I wouldn't blame them one bit. Unless I am seeking advice, I very rarely want any one else's input. Quite honestly, unsolicited advice does border on rudeness.

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I would have to disagree with this, in the context of grouping up with someone. If you and I were working on a project together, that's a different situation than walking up to a random person doing their job on the street and telling them what to do. It's because we're engaged in a group activity together that makes unsolicited advice socially acceptable. As long as you aren't rude with how you approach the player, then it shouldn't come as a problem, because it's to the benefit of everyone- including the person receiving the advice.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Unsolicited advice happens when you are incompetent at your job. Easiest way to avoid these occurrences is to be competent.

Being dead weight and causing wipes thus wasting time and effort is a hell of a lot more rude than being told what to do.

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Yes, because unsolicited advice only occurs in the work place, right?

Look, if you're being paid to do a job, and you're doing it poorly, then yes, you can't complain about being told what to do. That is just the nature of paid employment in results-based businesses. Yet when it comes to a game, a leisure activity, or a hobby? Yes, that unsolicited advice is very rude, which is why you see more negative reactions to it than positive. It's really amazing that in social games (like MMOs) that so many players (the advice givers) cannot grasp this basic social tenet.

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Originally Posted by Elliebird

I would have to disagree with this, in the context of grouping up with someone. If you and I were working on a project together, that's a different situation than walking up to a random person doing their job on the street and telling them what to do. It's because we're engaged in a group activity together that makes unsolicited advice socially acceptable. As long as you aren't rude with how you approach the player, then it shouldn't come as a problem, because it's to the benefit of everyone- including the person receiving the advice.

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Even in that situation unsolicited advice is not acceptable. It is socially acceptable to ask if the person would like your advice. If they say yes, you give it. If they say no, then you have a choice to make: continue on or find new partners and / or group. Unless the person formally agrees to it (eg., employee contract), it is not socially acceptable to start telling other people what to do, unless it is for the well-being of themselves and / or others.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Yes, because unsolicited advice only occurs in the work place, right?

Look, if you're being paid to do a job, and you're doing it poorly, then yes, you can't complain about being told what to do. That is just the nature of paid employment in results-based businesses. Yet when it comes to a game, a leisure activity, or a hobby? Yes, that unsolicited advice is very rude, which is why you see more negative reactions to it than positive. It's really amazing that in social games (like MMOs) that so many players (the advice givers) cannot grasp this basic social tenet.

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A job as in DPS job, Tank job, healer job.

Seriously it's not that difficult to make that connection.

If you are terrible at it, you will get advice, especially in the harder content.

Would you rather we simply kick those who aren't up to par than try and teach them?

I'm ok with both results.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

A job as in DPS job, Tank job, healer job.

Seriously it's not that difficult to make that connection.

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Now you're making stretches. See my edit. Unless I've signed a contract or made a verbal agreement with you, it's socially unacceptable for you to start telling others how to play.

You know how some games literally tell you how to beat a boss and then the game practically holds your hand through the fight, it's kind of like that when someone starts explaining mechanics when nobody asks for it.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Even in that situation unsolicited advice is not acceptable. It is socially acceptable to ask if the person would like your advice. If they say yes, you give it. If they say no, then you have a choice to make: continue on or find new partners and / or group. Unless the person formally agrees to it (eg., employee contract), it is not socially acceptable to start telling other people what to do, unless it is for the well-being of themselves and / or others.

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I'll admit that I'm confused, because you both disagreed and agreed with me in the same sentence. It is for the benefit of everyone involved in the group activity. The person receiving the advice, as well as the others in that group. If their performance is hindering progress, then it is better to try and give them advice than to simply kick them. It is better to give them advice than to drag the whole group down.

It can be an iffy undertaking no matter how carefully you word it our how well meaning you are. My rule of thumb tends to be that I don't offer advice unless I see a 'you have a new person' message (if the content is more than a month old) and then its just to give a quick run down of the mechanics that can be deadly or troublesome, without directing it at anyone in particular. I find that is what tends to rub people the wrong way: feeling as if they are being targeted. While you can give advice on a mechanic and not say any names, if you start calling out specific job mechanics and the like of a person who you feel is not playing to their full potential etc, however nicely, some are apt to respond defensively. It could be its in their nature, they could be newer to the game and self conscious, or maybe they've had bad experiences in other games that make them edgy about criticism. There is no way to tell until you've blundered into their hostility and that usually taints the rest of the run.

The only time I will break my own rule is if someone is making a mistake that is actively endangering the party. For example I've had to talk to a few newer Paladins about the fact that flash has a wonky 'delay' and that they're using it too early for it to hit their targets, leading to aggro going everywhere and I've also talked to other White Mages about recasting things like regen on tanks before pulls or between trash seeing as it sometimes leads to them eating a deadly cleave or, again, screwing with aggro. Those are the dangerous ones. Almost anything else you can leave people out of. Somebody running at you instead of away during a chain mechanic? 'Run away from each other to break chains'. No one is called out even if, technically, everyone probably knows who you are talking to. The likelihood is that if the person or persons you are talking to /do/ get offended, they aren't going to raise their hand and admit they were the ones messing up to start with. If it's not dire, I usually leave it alone. That said, if you are the one causing wipes or failing mechanics to the point of party/alliance death, so long as the people advising you are polite, I feel you've lost the right to get testy about unsolicited advice. Especially in later content.

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Originally Posted by Elliebird

I'll admit that I'm confused, because you both disagreed and agreed with me in the same sentence.

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What you highlighted is not a contradiction. If someone's (or someone else's) life is in peril, that supersedes any social convention, and only that. I really don't know why I have to explain that.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

What you highlighted is not a contradiction. If someone's (or someone else's) life is in peril, that supersedes any social convention, and only that. I really don't know why I have to explain that.

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Likewise, I'm not sure why I have to explain why giving someone advice is the preferable option when you are dealing with multiple people, in a group, using their time to try and complete a goal.

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Originally Posted by Elliebird

Likewise, I'm not sure why I have to explain why giving someone advice is the preferable option when you are dealing with multiple people, in a group, using their time to try and complete a goal.

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And this is why online gaming gets so toxic, when so many people refuse to embrace common social norms.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

And this is why online gaming gets so toxic, when so many people refuse to embrace common social norms.

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If you insist on thinking of it like that, then I have no power to stop you. However, I will never see people helping eachother as something toxic, especially in an online game. We'll simply have to agree to disagree on this.

Me giving advice:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/7f6e653da...7bs5o1_500.gif
True Story. :D

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Now you're making stretches. See my edit. Unless I've signed a contract or made a verbal agreement with you, it's socially unacceptable for you to start telling others how to play.

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Following your logic, then instead of trying to teach, you recommend simply removing you from the party entirely when you make mistakes.

Ok, as you wish.

I always try to help.
I'm not easy on ungrateful ones. No outrages to my home.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Tl;Dr: I'm being treated like a criminal in parties for daring to help, and it's driving me insane.

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I was a Mentor since the day they implemented it. Quite a long time ago I stopped being one, so I don't give advice anymore, I spit it out while calling them out and no one can mention how bad the Mentor system is.

People act like group content is a solo content, but actually it's a team, giving advice is part of the run. Nobody is perfect.

The other day did the new dungeon for a 2nd time and the area with walls and water rushing in i told the group that it is safer behind walls. The Tank basically said i like being up front, don't tell me what to do.
I actually mean't for the dps and healer and said so afterwords.
Otherwise i have not encountered anything in sometime because i do not bother anymore.

A lot of people can't handle being told that they should try to be good at a game (I wonder how those people handle really difficult single player games....), so they lash out and call people who dare give advice no-lifers, with this stereotype that people who give advice are elite players who spend tens of hours a day playing.

Then you have a lot of people who don't want to deal with the drama, so even though they might be ok with getting advice, they'll jump down on anyone who dares to give advice to others in the party to try to shut that down.

All you can do is try to get like-minded people from FC/statics and go with them.

Of course this isn't everyone. Yesterday I finally got around to doing the trial for MSQ (what? I was enjoying other content like the active hunt linkshells, active marketboard, and command missions. No need to rush. Patches are great for doing things that aren't just new content.) and people were super nice about those of us late-msq-ers asking for just 1 try of a blind run so we'd get that "day 1" experience. Then once we failed (majorly:D), they respectfully gave advice and no one took it badly.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

Of course this isn't everyone. Yesterday I finally got around to doing the trial for MSQ (what? I was enjoying other content like the active hunt linkshells, active marketboard, and command missions. No need to rush. Patches are great for doing things that aren't just new content.) and people were super nice about those of us late-msq-ers asking for just 1 try of a blind run so we'd get that "day 1" experience. Then once we failed (majorly:D), they respectfully gave advice and no one took it badly.

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I'm happy to hear that they were able to have an experience like that. Advice or no advice, the way people treat eachother can make the difference between a great run or a horrid one. The courtesy to help without looking down on others goes a long way for a genre that relies so much on its community. I don't know what I would've done if people hadn't helped me when I first started.

I had a summoner once in HW during Fractal Continuum that was just applying dots and burning through aetherflow asap (with energy drain). He wasn't taking advantage of trance, and just using deathflare instantly on cooldown. He wasn't using ruin at all, but he would randomly cast tri-bind sometimes.

It was just a dungeon, but nothing was dying at all (because the ninja was periodically falling asleep during the run, irl), it took us an hour to get through the place. I told him that he needs to at very least be using ruin in his downtime, instead of just standing there waiting for aetherflow. I also told him to save Aetherflow stacks for Fester or Painflare/Bane if there's multiple enemies. I also told him he should be casting ruin 3 during trance and casting deathflare when it was almost over, and that he should never cast tri-bind (which was then useless).

How did he respond? He told me to back off and that he was only trying to have fun, and that i should focus on my healing because apparently i suck at it (despite nobody dying the entire time). Then he ragequit at the last boss.

I can't help but wonder what exactly is fun about playing like garbage, taking an hour to do something that should take about 15 minutes, and just standing there waiting for a mobs to die while you just watch your dots tick.

The ninja got an earful from me too. Told him if he can't stay awake during a dungeon, then he shouldn't queue.

People are stupid. So painfully, unashamedly stupid and stubborn. It's not worth it to try to offer friendly advice when a majority of people aren't willing to accept it nicely. Be blunt, and if they are unwilling to change, then they get the boot. Simple and painless. The tone you're trying to give does not come across in text. People assume you're insulting them directly, so it's best not to even bother and try to honey up your words.

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Originally Posted by Averax

The ninja got an earful from me too.

People are stupid. So painfully, unashamedly stupid and stubborn. It's not worth it to try to offer friendly advice when a majority of people aren't willing to accept it nicely. Be blunt, and if they are unwilling to change, then they get the boot. Simple and painless. The tone you're trying to give does not come across in text. People assume you're insulting them directly, so it's best not to even bother and try to honey up your words.

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Your people skills seem to be severely lacking.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Your people skills seem to be severely lacking.

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Not really, he's actually on point.

In my job i have to deal with people on a daily basis, usually angry people, it doesn't matter how politely you explain something, the majority of people are just too stupid to understand what you are telling them and believe they are the ultimate being that don't need your advice because they know better. I've had people argue with me about the LAW. The actual LAW, with a lawyer next to me explaining that's not true and trying to correct him. That guy STILL held his own and believed he knows better. It's the same in games. People are stupid, ignorant and stubborn.

With people like these, the easiest approach is to point out where they are making mistakes, if they get angry that's okay, remove from the party, replace, and move on. The one thing people often forget, you are replaceable. You are not special, you are not unique, you are just another person that can easily be replaced with someone better if you're not willing to learn.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Not really, he's actually on point.

In my job i have to deal with people on a daily basis, usually angry people, it doesn't matter how politely you explain something, the majority of people are just too stupid to understand what you are telling them and believe they are the ultimate being that don't need your advice because they know better. I've had people argue with me about the LAW. The actual LAW, with a lawyer next to me explaining that's not true and trying to correct him. That guy STILL held his own and believed he knows better. It's the same in games. People are stupid, ignorant and stubborn.

With people like these, the easiest approach is to point out where they are making mistakes, if they get angry that's okay, remove from the party, replace, and move on. The one thing people often forget, you are replaceable. You are not special, you are not unique, you are just another person that can easily be replaced with someone better if you're not willing to learn.

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Anecdotes can be found to support any position. I also work in a profession that deals with people all day long, and one that people aren't usually fond of needing to deal with in the first place (insurance). However, I get compliments on a normal basis, and I have many customers who want to work with me directly as they appreciate how I work and treat them.

Anyway, we're obviously not going to see eye to eye on this one. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and work with them vs. automatically assuming the worst. The latter just seems like a miserable way to go about things.

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Originally Posted by Elliebird

If you insist on thinking of it like that, then I have no power to stop you. However, I will never see people helping eachother as something toxic, especially in an online game. We'll simply have to agree to disagree on this.

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It's the violation of social norms that breeds the toxicity, not the helping each other. Helping someone else is fine, providing they are in a non-life threatening situation and they consent to it. Ultimately, however, we do have a fundamental disagreement on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Following your logic, then instead of trying to teach, you recommend simply removing you from the party entirely when you make mistakes.

Ok, as you wish.

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Erm, no, that does not follow, logically. It is the onus of the person violating the social norm (the unsolicited advice giver) who should leave. Making a mistake should never lead to a removal from the party. Someone can make a mistake, and realize what they did wrong. You do not need unsolicited advice to correct the error. If you get permission? Give the advice all day long. But until you do, or the person is willing to receive it, it is rude and inconsiderate to give unsolicited advice.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

It's the violation of social norms that breeds the toxicity, not the helping each other. Helping someone else is fine, providing they are in a non-life threatening situation and they consent to it. Ultimately, however, we do have a fundamental disagreement on the matter.



Erm, no, that does not follow, logically. It is the onus of the person violating the social norm (the unsolicited advice giver) who should leave. Making a mistake should never lead to a removal from the party. Someone can make a mistake, and realize what they did wrong. You do not need unsolicited advice to correct the error. If you get permission? Give the advice all day long. But until you do, or the person is willing to receive it, it is rude and inconsiderate to give unsolicited advice.

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I don't think so. Your "social norm" is not really the norm, actually you're the odd one out, don't try to make it sound like that's the accepted behaviour.. It's more like a really stupid approach, reminds me of the whole social justice mental illness, but that's another topic.

Tell you what, I can make this very simple, if I ever meet you in a dungeon or raid, I generally play a tank or a healer, I will go out of my way to have you specifically removed from it as to avoid any further discussions and any potential wipes you can cause by refusing to listen to advice and explanations on mechanics. It only takes me a few seconds to find a new group so really it's fine even if i'm the one to be removed.

You want to follow with that mentality, that is fine. Doesn't mean i have to put up with you being in a party with me in the actual game.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Now you're making stretches. See my edit. Unless I've signed a contract or made a verbal agreement with you, it's socially unacceptable for you to start telling others how to play.

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How are they making a stretch? You are the one arguing the semantics of the word “job”—“job” in FFXIV is used to describe what you are playing: PLD, WAR, DRK are tank jobs, WHM, SCH, AST are healer jobs, etc.. We are not talking about a “job” as in a place where you go daily to earn wages. You’re going to lose the argument here, because “job” is what people say to refer to what one plays in the context of this game (and, by extension, in the context of this thread).

If you are in high-end content, there is a level of competency expected of you. Considering one example in the OP was about Tsukuyomi EXTREME, one expects a level of competency in content like that. Yesterday, I was in a group (TsukuEx) with a BRD that never used Refresh for the healers even though we were bottoming out on MP from raising people that were getting hit by the blades. I was in another one where we had a RDM and a SMN, and neither would help raise dead players (even the healers so we could healer LB3 to try and save the run), nor use Mana Shift. When I have to ask for Mana Shift or Refresh in content where it should be expected (especially Refresh because the BRD/MCH lose nothing for using it), there is a problem. Asking a player “Can you please use Refresh for the healer’s MP?” is not unsoliticted advice—it is expected play in high-end content.

If players are in high-end content, they need to know how to play their jobs far beyond just the basics. If they don’t, people are going to call them out on it. Honestly, they should be the ones who are ashamed: joining Extreme primal farms or Savage weeklies and not even knowing the basics of their jobs. They are a hinderance to the other 7 people there, and just because you can be carried through content doesn’t mean that it’s right. Again, I joined a “farm” yesterday with, not only a BONUS, but a SAM that was doing 2,000 less damage than me...a BRD...who had DIED. But they told me that I was the one who sucked when I said I was done after we couldn’t even get past Moon Phase.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Making a mistake should never lead to a removal from the party. Someone can make a mistake, and realize what they did wrong. You do not need unsolicited advice to correct the error. If you get permission? Give the advice all day long. But until you do, or the person is willing to receive it, it is rude and inconsiderate to give unsolicited advice.

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It depends on the type of the mistake, and the frequency. If you have someone dying multiple times to the SAME THING, and refusing to listen to advice on how not to die, then they should be the one removed from the group, not the person trying to tell them how to stay alive. Same thing if you have someone that you are clearly carrying through the content—a BRD that refuses to play their songs is not only hurting themselves, but the group as well. If they refuse to use them, then why should the person who asked “Can you please use your songs? You’re a BRD, and you’re hurting your damage and ours” be the one who is forceibly removed? This is speaking in terms of high-end content (though, as a BRD main, I take issue with any BRD I meet in any content that ignores their songs, especially since they are GAINS for them now).

As I said above, I consider it rude on the person who is clearly struggling, and stubbornly refusing to listen to advice that will keep them alive or make the content easier. And this is with regardless of the content. I can be extremely lenient on people that are new, but I also expect them to listen when I explain to them how they can stay alive and make it through the content unscathed. Thankfully, a lot of sprouts and truly new players are more than willing to listen to advice—it’s the veterans that never want to listen, to change, or to adapt. At least in my experience.
This just reminds me of when I ran Halatali for the first time on my alt a few days ago, and the tank spoke up saying “Hi! I’m new, so please let me know what I need to do if I’m doing something wrong! :D”, and the mentor was the one who was like “nope” and instantly left the dungeon. How incredibly rude can you get?

Its because people don't care if they do things right and since you don't pay their sub you have to be quiet. If it bothers you, stop helping and accept that there are things that you can't change. May sound harsh but its sadly true.

@OP It is simply not about what you want. What you are trying to do, by your own admission, is prescribe methods for being optimal because it's gratifying to you. This is how you elect to spend your time. What escapes you then is that not everyone has the same aim/goals as you for when they join. Some people are content to not bother themselves with the effort required to be optimal but have more fun just playing it loose. Or some people prefer to learn things at their own pace and having other people dictate to them is distracting.

Point is, offering help is beautiful, but only when it's specifically asked for. If it's not being asked for, it shouldn't be baffling to imagine ways it can be seen as imposing instead. To the argument that they're impeding the party, then by all means, vote dismiss. That said, it's my belief that it's not our place to tell other people how to use their time unless they ask directly. For the 27 people who liked your post, this escapes them as well.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Snip.

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It really is the social norm. Very rarely, in my day-to-day life, do I see anyone (including myself) battered with unsolicited advice. I'd like to think it's because most people I encounter understand that it is rude and inconsiderate without consent.

As for your hypothetical example, if you choose to be petty like that, that is your choice. Vote dismissals ceased to bother me a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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Let's start addressing this long post with one word: connotation. The same word can have very different connotations. When I used the word 'job,' I was very clearly using the word in the connotation of paid employment. If you choose to fixate on this word, invoke a different connotation, and go into off-topic tangents, good for you I guess?

Whether you are in queuable or high-level content, there is no cause to be rude and inconsiderate. The fact that online communities allow this kind of behaviour is indicative of how far these communities have fallen. We can be polite and respectful and address these problems—namely by asking if the person would like some advice, instead of bulldozing them with it, unasked. I think you would find that approach yields much better results.

And in answer to the rest of your post ... helping other players is fine, especially when they seem to be struggling, but instead of adding to their stress and frustration, we should be trying to be polite and respectful in the way that we do it. Why this point is so hard to get across, or why some individuals find this perplexing, is really beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

In my job i have to deal with people on a daily basis, usually angry people, it doesn't matter how politely you explain something, the majority of people are just too stupid to understand what you are telling them and believe they are the ultimate being that don't need your advice because they know better. I've had people argue with me about the LAW.

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I've been in your shoes, and you're taking the entirely wrong lesson from this. People are not stupid, they are "entitled." You're not explaining things in a way that sounds like it is a benefit to them, so they are going to flip out on you.

Between the wireless, auction and sales leads call centers I worked at, the "stupid person" is not the majority. The genuinely stupid person can have something explained to them, and if they are not willing to follow the instructions, you can hand-hold them through the instructions, and if after that they still don't get it, then you pretty much have to say "please find a teenager to help you." The "worst" call I ever had with trying to explain something? A lady who was unwilling to program her phone, so she passed it to her husband who recently had brain surgery and couldn't stay awake more than 15 seconds. The guy who couldn't stay awake was not stupid, but the wife was unwilling to be helpful. She was told to take the phone to a store. Most "customer support" situations are people who actually WANT help, and they will be thankful for talking to a nice person. When I worked the escalations, I got the completely opposite people, the entitled people who wanted stuff done their way and stomped their feet and held their breath until you give in. I wasn't accepting any of that, you escalate, you lost all the leverage you may have had, and I push you back to the previous rep with the instruction to not give you anything. Who was the most incompetent person in the call center? The person who I trained with who escalated half the calls she got.

When you have leverage over someone, you have control over the situation, that is why you are experiencing arguments from people who can't interpret a contract at your actual job. Those people are the same people who will cut their nose off to spite their face. I've been in those shoes telling people that they've done something illegal, and their services are hereby terminated, they will cry, scream and yell (and one guy flooded every phone number with faxes) until they get attention from someone who will "treat them better" when it's actually their own entitlement that got them into that situation, and they are unwilling to save face. All you can do in those situations is go "Look, you came to me. This is what I do. If you don't like it, your only other option is do nothing, and let nature take its course, at your expense. Nobody is going to change the law for you."

However when it comes to video games, you do not have leverage over anyone. You're not the GM. People who act like entitled jerks, be it in the game, or outside the game (eg forum, discord, reddit, etc), are not good at hiding their true character. If you're not willing to accept that PUG's will never be perfect, and you may get a disaster PUG, then you need to stay out of the duty finder and find a FC or Static to play with. Me, personally, I just roll with whatever PUG I get, and if turns into a disaster, and nobody wants to listen, I'm not going to be the one who aims for the Abandon/Kick button.


Now as to this statement:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Averax

I can't help but wonder what exactly is fun about playing like garbage, taking an hour to do something that should take about 15 minutes, and just standing there waiting for a mobs to die while you just watch your dots tick.

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That person sounds like a troll honestly. Maybe that is how that person got through all their content. Maybe they just like to play like garbage, and you unfortunately got them. Or maybe they jump-potted and have been playing that way in PotD. But this is one of those situations where they should not have gotten past the first set of trash if they were really playing like garbage. Encounters like this are rare.

People are not inherently stupid, as I said above. What intelligent people perceive as stupidity in the general population is really willful ignorance or entitlement as an act to for some nefarious gain. People who spill hot coffee on themselves at McDonalds are not stupid, they're looking for a lawsuit payout. People who claim not to be aware of the Early Termination Fee in their contracts are looking for a way to skip out on paying for the thing they bought. People who buy and sell counterfeit merchandise online and then have the FBI show up at their door, can not claim not to know. People in the game and on the forum are looking to start a fight, and don't actually have anything meaningful to say other than to insult the player for even having the gall to asking something that was probably covered in a 3 year old guide.

It's incredibly rare to find people who are genuinely stupid, and when they're found, it's usually because PUBLIC education was denied to them, and thus they were either home-schooled, not schooled at all, or were sent to an abusive private religious school, or they had to drop out to find work because their homelife was a wreck to begin with.