Mogtalk interview with yoshi p

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Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7

Holy hell in a handbasket, all of of Yoshi's comments about PVP are downright embarrassing to read.

I respect the rest of his answers, but I don't see how he can feel PVP is anything but a hot mess right now.

I don't see how tournaments would ever work when there is plenty of 'foul play' occurring as is.

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Yoshi P:
https://media.giphy.com/media/2UCt7z...bx6t/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by ko_

Why do people hate instant death mechs?

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Why do you have healers when mechanics kill you instantly and healers spend most of their time DPSing? Non lethal mechanics where a healer can recover eventually give healers stuff to do and can lead to wipes if people fail too many times in most MMOs, but healing here is so overpowered that it doesn't really work in most content. One shots mean I can't do anything to save someone from a mistake except Raise.

Rival Wings was fine actually, and the only real issue they didn't address was healer potency. It's not a bad mode at all, especially once they balanced it the first time. What they needed to do was address healing at that time, because it was pretty blatant how strong and unbalanced it could be in a mode that was more defensive than other pvp modes. That they refused to do that kind of killed the mode. Stupid Feast balancing dragged it down.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Triple Triad carried over fairly well, after all. I'm worried about them killing Blitzball at launch by making it into a 'menu' game. Squadron missions aren't exactly the epitome of engaging play.

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If there is one piece of feedback I can offer based on this interview that I would beg the development staff to consider: Please, no more menu games. Retainer ventures? Nothing but clicking through menus. Airship and submarine voyages? Nothing but menus. Squadron missions? Menus. Chocobo training, feeding, coloring? Menus. Gardening? Menus.

All of the above items sounded amazing on paper, but in practice are incredibly boring because they consist of nothing but clicking a few words on a screen. Please, I'd rather Blitzball not be added then turned into another item for this list. That said, if it were added to FFXIV just like FFX (You collect npc from around the world as players, level them up through use, teach and equip a variety of abilities, you actually CONTROL them during the game, etc), but with some additions I would be more than happy with its inclusion.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I really wish people would just STFU about making things harder, because it would ruin healing in this game. There's no way healers are going to like having a gimped healset with encounter designs that routinely bring people down to 25% health on mistake, and have constant movement and damage. Old MMO healing generally was much less mobile, much more slower paced, and with much less of a tight player limit.

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And I wish people who stop insisting everyone needs their hands held throughout the entire game or they will fall apart. The whole DPS dilemma regarding healers stems from the fact you will spend more time DPS than healing in this game. In fact, there is not a single piece of content that cannot be solo healed. Even Ultimate does not require two healers, though obviously it takes skill to be that proficient at any role. Nevertheless, your insistence healers need to be able to essential carry parties assure the green DPS meta will continue. "Gimping" healing potency would force them to special at their actual role in lieu of being pseudo DPS.

Put another way. Do you prefer the current system where healers are expected to DPS or a system that encourages healing and fights don't have to rely on OHKO mechanics to be threatening?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Put another way. Do you prefer the current system where healers are expected to DPS or a system that encourages healing and fights don't have to rely on OHKO mechanics to be threatening?

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Yeah, I'd rather have the current system. You're asking for it to be made dramatically harder for one single class by forcing GCDs that are optional and can be used either for DPS or healing into pure healing. We have an example of that in Feast, and even though you can't one hit someone in Feast without proper timing and coordination, it's horrid to play as a healer in it. If you need two healers at full output to handle encounters in this game, you've just reduced their ability to slip up, regardless of lack of one hits. If you only have one, well, good luck with that, get used to wiping and being kicked as a dps because I can't cover for you when you stand in the bad.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Yeah, I'd rather have the current system. You're asking for it to be made dramatically harder for one single class by forcing GCDs that are optional and can be used either for DPS or healing into pure healing. We have an example of that in Feast, and even though you can't one hit someone in Feast without proper timing and coordination, it's horrid to play as a healer in it. If you need two healers at full output to handle encounters in this game, you've just reduced their ability to slip up, regardless of lack of one hits. If you only have one, well, good luck with that, get used to wiping and being kicked as a dps because I can't cover for you when you stand in the bad.

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You realize in the average dungeon, I will spend upwards of 80% casting Stone IV, Holy, Aero II or Aero III, yes? Both the healers in my static spend over 60% of their time casting DPS spells. No other MMO has its healers play pseudo-DPS who occasionally heals yet that is precisely how healers in FFXIV operate. Reducing their potency won't make healing "dramatically harder." It will make it so you have to spend more time healing than DPSing.

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Originally Posted by JCharms

He's spot on with Blitzball, and I'm glad he recognises its a lot of development for something that would last a week if that.
But that's exactly the sort of thing that should be put to the community, getting ideas to make it something that is fun and more importantly, last more than a couple of times.

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Sadly his second opinion on Blitzball sound just like Sqadron 2.0 and if the players cant really play this at all and only train then I am not sure if that is truly fun. Maybe a combination would be great. We will gather and train them but we can also play it together with our NPCs against other NPCs. But just training sounds just like another "lets click once and let them do stuff and forget them till their training is done".

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Originally Posted by Ryannex

I can understand his frustrations in regards to Blitzball, as every game would be a rather long endeavour, and in a game with plenty to do - no-one will end up wanting to do it. Think of Lord of Vermillion, for example. They tried to push it so hard but in the end it just failed horrifically. Chocobo Racing is another classic mode that was quite simply ruined (mostly through its structural system) and no-one plays. TT was not carried over well in the fact that your decks are limited to the point of obscurity and tournaments are simply wintraded with no true rewards or recompense.

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If the only way to implement Blitzball in this game, is to make it another Squadron like thing..well maybe its simply not for this game and the time to create that should be used for different content. IMO not every single Mini Game from other FF should be in this if it does not go well with the game itself. You will just have another rage coming to you. If a match is truly quite long (I dont know Blitzball that much) then yes its probably too long for an MMO (TT does have short games) especially if you put another grind behind it. IMO a mini game should not be something that you need the most of your time to do it good..it should be something that you can do in between stuff that will be used as a bit of a break from all the other content in this game. LoV failed (IMO) because it was way too complicated for a mini game. Simple one vs one battles between NPCs or players and a way to train them would have been enough.

So if Blitzball in any way takes too long and is complicated or boring..then you will truly just have another LoV..thats why I dont understand why its even necessary to be in this game.

About rival wings:

It seems that its still a bit more used on the japanese servers. At least thats what some reddit users wrote. So again it seems that they love to look at the japenese market and not the rest of the world..or they truly just take the first few weeks and see it as a success if its used there..which would just be really bad.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

*deep breath*

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Well, now I have what to specifically discuss. So here goes.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

This is a MMO, the underlying mechanics are that of a turn-based MMORPG in "server ticks" of about 3 seconds. Because of latency in North America, you can have players anywhere from 6ms in California to 500ms in Australia and Russia. Only the underlying turned-based mechanics allow such players to play together and not have the person with the fastest connection wipe the floor with everyone else.

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This is an issue that all multiplayer games have. Yet playing multiplayer, not necessarily with your neighbors only, is exactly how sport games are played the most. The latency doesn't affect them?! I'm sure it does.

I'm also afraid that turn-based or action-heavy in term of latency means almost nothing. Almost, because so long as the cooldown of abilities is above the latency or if its client-sided there is no difference. Only in games where cooldown is below latency AND server based (like Blade and Soul) is there a difference because low-latency players can spam more abilities in the same time.
"Turn-based" style, or rather, active ATB style, is no different in how much it hurts players with high latency. The fact that I can use abilities every 2.5sec instead of every 0.5sec doesn't change the fact that when I see fast attacks markings (like Titan's wrath of the land or whatever it's called), it is often too late for me to move out of them before server will register a hit, because the time the information travels to me and then back to the server is about as long as the charge of the attack on worse days.
The cooldowns that are long are there to reduce the necessary physical and mental ability to make fast decisions and quickly use varying buttons. Nothing more, nothing less. It's got nothing to do with latency. Or at least...it does nothing for latency.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Now, for Blitzball, or any other sport game, requires a real-time mechanic that can't be cheesed by the person with the fastest connection. So you would literately have players pointing to places on the field and pick "move,dribble, pass (to player), shoot (goal)" etc, and you would need whatever number of people are required to play the game. In FFX there were also stat boost/debuffs. Realistically FFX's Blitzball was also just turn-based. It was not in any way like the other sports games.

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Wrong. Again, you are assuming that a sport game requires something that it does not. As you said yourself, original blitzball was not entirely real-time (it was not turn-based either, though). It had "battles" which were basically a rock-paper-scissors matches, but the movement was real-time. And that's actually not entirely uncommon. I do agree though that developers would need to work on minimizing the latency issue for it especially, but some degree would not be gamebreaking as you make it believe.
As for however many players...it's anywhere from 1 player to a number of players equal to the amount of characters on the field. Unless developers will decide to give it specific number. That's the whole point of computer games. To provide AI for whatever characters there are no players for.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

So the closest you will get to anything would be slower than the PvP games, and not as a fun as a result unless it was "solo", a la the squadrons.

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PvP suffers from latency as well, and yet there are fans, despite many people considering its design rather poor. Why would blitzball require perfect solution to latency issues when nothing else (other sport games, other activities in FFXIV etc.) does? It's too bad, but that's how MMO's go. High latency=sucky gameplay. It's unavoidable and it affects EVERYTHING in EVERY MMO game. People like that have to deal with it somehow or...change game. And I'm saying that while I myself suffer from high latency.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

So between actions, you'd be allowed to move, but as soon as someone has the ball, or tries to intercept it, there would have to be some QTE for the success/fail action.

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And...what's the problem with that?! It was like this in the original blitzball and it still did garner some fans. It's all about how the game as a whole will be designed. This game flow itself in no way is unfun.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Like I don't realistically see any way of pulling this off and it being fun, regardless of what you think the value of Blitzball is itself.

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There is no value in blitzball in and off itself. It's all about how it will be made. I just in general like "combat" sports where there are actual super-attacks and such, despite disliking sports in general. So it is something I may be interested in depending on how it will be implemented.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Look at the Triple Triad, Lord of Verminion and the Chocobo Racing.

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Lord of Verminion is a poorly-made strategy game. Something I said in this very thread is a horrible idea. A strategy game NEVER should be made as a mini-game in anything due to how specific they are in their target audience. And even as a strategy game, its implementation is truly horrid. I order the minions to ATTACK a monster, yet they pass it, taking that order to attack as an order to move to where that monster was at the moment of the click. This is not how strategy games work for a reason. If I order to move, they should move. If I order to attack, they should attack, following the target till one side dies or I change the order.

Triple Triad isn't half-bad when you feel like burning some time on something, especially since you can cancel it (when going against NPC's at least). It suffers for multiple reasons though.
1) NPC's cheat. They have no limit to how many cards of what rank they can use at all. That makes the game lose value. No one likes playing against cheaters. Rules being equal for all are EXTREMELY important in a card game.
2) The deck setup is locked behind achievements. That means that you will completely suck until after you put forth quite a fair deal of effort. This however, together with the above cheating issue, means that the early stages of the game are horribly unfun all the while that stage is unavoidable. As a game done in spare time, that's unacceptable.
3) Triple Triad obviously doesn't allow you to 'progress' in the context of the game itself. At the same time, it's impossible to play the game outside of very few designated areas. That means that players, when they have a bit of spare time waiting for someone to come back after going to open the door for example, simply cannot play it. Why, I'd be more than happy to play triple triad in dungeon while waiting for someone disconnected to log back in, or waiting for someone to return after having to go do something etc. But I can't. And I can't do it in any other situation where I would want to, either. Either my progression needs to suffer (aka. I need to stop doing everything else and go to specific places to play it) or I can only play against cheating AI...which requires me to go to specific places as well, obviously.

Chocobo races?! Well, they are just too simple. And too RPG'ish for races. The chocobos don't react to orders properly, some chocobos can be vastly faster etc. It just cannot be fun as a multiplayer game due to that.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The "call a play" coach mechanic is easier to pull off, and not requiring assembling enough players to play, it could be done as 1-on-1, so whoever has the ball, you get a QTE of "pass/shoot/dribble" and that pretty much makes it work like it did in FFX.

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Player amount never was an issue. It's no different from FIFA and other sport games. And those sport games certainly are no couch-based games. Yes, giving commands is one way to play it. I don't dismiss it either so long as it does have actual active elements to it. So long as I see the players as they flow by, they react to my commands etc. It's just a bit different control scheme there and it does not turn into strategy game either. But you seem to be misunderstanding what a sport game needs.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

But this is going to be something that takes a long time, you're not going to play a match and then logoff. If your "team" never logs on again, then what? Start over? What if your new team sucks? What if you get d/c'd?

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Again, you are assuming that this game will need more than one player per team, while there is no reason to believe that being the case. Player would just control any one character while being able to give commands of sorts to all character, even those they do not control at the time. And all problems are solved. You will always be logged on when you log on clearly, and that's all you need for ranking. Of course, it is possible for the game to permit multiple players per team. Then it turns into something akin to any other PvP. Why would it need to be given special treatment?! You got disconnected...so what?! You can get disconnected in PvP and suffer for it too. Too bad. It sucks, but can't be helped. At least the game can replace your character with AI if it is multi-player game, or "pause" it if its not, with an auto-surrender if you do not log in within a minute or so (unless there are other players on your team that will just have to take the burden if they don't want to surrender).

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Hence, my point of I don't see any kind of "realtime" sport being viable here. It would have to be all single-rounds, not tournaments, and if you just PUG it, you stand no chance of actually getting anywhere since people could form "static" teams.

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No wonder you don't see it if you just assumed it would be in a very specific way, while completely ignoring the fact that nothing is set in stone. Now, it would be a bit more reasonable if you assumed it would be a faithful representation of blitzball from FFX, but no. Your idea of how it would HAVE to work have nothing in common with it but the name and swimming in a dome, all the while assuming all the worse case scenarios. Sorry, but you are simply overlooking way too many things in the very limited view of sport games you seem to have.
1) There is no reason why it could be played with one person per team.
2) There is no reason why it couldn't have "time stops" for battles, to give few seconds to make decisions.
3) There is no reason why, if there would be teams, it wouldn't depend on those teams logging in. That's how statics work after all.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You realize in the average dungeon, I will spend upwards of 80% casting Stone IV, Holy, Aero II or Aero III, yes? Both the healers in my static spend over 60% of their time casting DPS spells. No other MMO has its healers play pseudo-DPS who occasionally heals yet that is precisely how healers in FFXIV operate. Reducing their potency won't make healing "dramatically harder." It will make it so you have to spend more time healing than DPSing.

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Of course it will make it harder.

Let's say there's a period of time where I have 20 GCDS as a healer. 60% DPS means about 8 casts mitigate the incoming damage raid wide. Now lets halve potency overall. That means I need 16 casts to cover raid damage.

Now imagine what happens if I get hit by a mechanic that paralyzes me, and I lose 4 GCDs. I have to be perfect with normal casts to still cover incoming damage. Now imagine if I die.

Let's say I'm raised really fast, up in 2 GCDs. Ok, that's cool. Let's say I have good MP management, so lack of MP doesn't factor in. Ok. Problem is though I now have a 25% potency hit from the raise for one minute, which may mean I need at least one more GCD every 4 for every minute. So I'm probably going to wipe the raid because I died; my casts are too few that I won't be able to keep up with damage. This is because the amount of GCDs that are required not to wipe the raid that only I can do are very high and make me vulnerable to disruption much more like a DPS is, and we all know how hard it can be for DPS.

In FFXI you were more of a pure healer, but you didn't nonstop heal either. You spent time casting debuffs (dia, para, slow) and buffs (barspells.) You spent a lot of time not even healing, you took a knee to regen MP, and you had a lot of things that helped you minimize that time spent resting, as well as a cohealer that healed while you did. And FFXI healing was pretty hard overall. FFXIV doesnt have anywhere near this depth, so we'd just be nonstop curing if they made us more pure healers, and there's no real way to balance this; we have no haste, or no buffs for short term potency up for all but one healer. Our tools are mostly for MP management, designed to have us keep casting.

I think it would be much harder as the game is now. You'd need to change a lot to make it the same difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Why do you have healers when mechanics kill you instantly and healers spend most of their time DPSing? Non lethal mechanics where a healer can recover eventually give healers stuff to do and can lead to wipes if people fail too many times in most MMOs, but healing here is so overpowered that it doesn't really work in most content. One shots mean I can't do anything to save someone from a mistake except Raise.

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Most MMO's doesn't even have healers, you gotta take care of your own healing. And if they made healing diffuculty higher than it is now, then a lot and I mean A LOT of people would struggle. Hell, people struggle already now. Yesterday a guy asked a tank or a melee dps to do the pink color in 06s, because he said there is ton of damage to heal when 1 healer is inside the thing that kills the wind spirits. It's just 1 aoe and it's pretty easy to heal...

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Of course it will make it harder.

Let's say there's a period of time where I have 20 GCDS as a healer. 60% DPS means about 8 casts mitigate the incoming damage raid wide. Now lets halve potency overall. That means I need 16 casts to cover raid damage.

Now imagine what happens if I get hit by a mechanic that paralyzes me, and I lose 4 GCDs. I have to be perfect with normal casts to still cover incoming damage. Now imagine if I die.

Let's say I'm raised really fast, up in 2 GCDs. Ok, that's cool. Let's say I have good MP management, so lack of MP doesn't factor in. Ok. Problem is though I now have a 25% potency hit from the raise for one minute, which may mean I need at least one more GCD every 4 for every minute. So I'm probably going to wipe the raid because I died; my casts are too few that I won't be able to keep up with damage. This is because the amount of GCDs that are required not to wipe the raid that only I can do are very high and make me vulnerable to disruption much more like a DPS is, and we all know how hard it can be for DPS.

In FFXI you were more of a pure healer, but you didn't nonstop heal either. You spent time casting debuffs (dia, para, slow) and buffs (barspells.) You spent a lot of time not even healing, you took a knee to regen MP, and you had a lot of things that helped you minimize that time spent resting, as well as a cohealer that healed while you did. And FFXI healing was pretty hard overall. FFXIV doesnt have anywhere near this depth, so we'd just be nonstop curing if they made us more pure healers, and there's no real way to balance this; we have no haste, or no buffs for short term potency up for all but one healer. Our tools are mostly for MP management, designed to have us keep casting.

I think it would be much harder as the game is now. You'd need to change a lot to make it the same difficulty.

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Harder, yes. But as per usual, you over-exaggerate things.

First and foremost, those sixteen casts would be split amongst both healers whereas currently one can primarily DPS. Your example also does not account for content not necessitating the sheer amount of healing all in the span of several seconds. Ever single fight has ample downtime, thus even with a healing potency reduction you would still have time to recover. A death puts more pressure on your co-healer and support jobs, however that's the whole point. Let's look at Rabanastre. I can, and have, gone the entire run casting very few healing spells. In this hypothetical, I'd be forced to actually participate as a healer. Assume I died, 75% healing efficiency between both healers remains overkill for everything Rabanastre throws at you. Case in point, people have cleared it on all tanks, red mages or with multiple healers dead. The content simply doesn't demand what you are insinuating hence why pure healing is considered extremely easy.

You have frequently complained about the OHKO mechanics utilized, especially in Rabanastre. They exist because healers are essentially overpowered. Reducing healing potency allows for more varied mechanics, both from bosses and oGCD buffs. Largesse becomes infinitely more useful if you actually had to prioritize more GCD healing.

So add that depth back. Heaven knows Astro could use something beyond Malefic III on an endless loop. I would much prefer more varied gameplay on a healer than Stone IV/Aero II/III spam 60-80% of the time. And this is coming from someone who loves to DPS on healers. I simply find it silly you will always spend more time dealing damage than your primary role.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Most MMO's doesn't even have healers, you gotta take care of your own healing. And if they made healing diffuculty higher than it is now, then a lot and I mean A LOT of people would struggle. Hell, people struggle already now. Yesterday a guy asked a tank or a melee dps to do the pink color in 06s, because he said there is ton of damage to heal when 1 healer is inside the thing that kills the wind spirits. It's just 1 aoe and it's pretty easy to heal...

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To be fair, that person has no business anywhere near Savage if they cannot handle that mechanic.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Rival Wings was fine actually, and the only real issue they didn't address was healer potency. It's not a bad mode at all, especially once they balanced it the first time. What they needed to do was address healing at that time, because it was pretty blatant how strong and unbalanced it could be in a mode that was more defensive than other pvp modes. That they refused to do that kind of killed the mode. Stupid Feast balancing dragged it down.

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Unfortunately, RW suffers like every other PvP mode does on the NA side. Bots are far too common. I've seen my fair share, and it's now to the point I simply don't participate anymore. Pretty hard to win when half your team is "afk" or feeding the other teams points. Perhaps it's not as bad on the JP side of things, but it's a pretty big issue in other places. They seriously need to consider NA and other regions into their decisions.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Well, now I have what to specifically discuss. So here goes.

This is an issue that all multiplayer games have. Yet playing multiplayer, not necessarily with your neighbors only, is exactly how sport games are played the most. The latency doesn't affect them?! I'm sure it does.

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Please show me where there is a MMO-FIFA Online. There isn't.

Sports games was the incentive for "4-player" console designs. You know what's funny, EA FIFA itself introduced a "solo story" campaign. They also only introduced female players in the 2016 years version... you know after having 20 versions without them. FIFA had an "online" game, it never got out of BETA. Instead they came out with a Mobile app, and we all know the kind of rubbish puts out for mobile.

Point is, there is no real way of making a real-time sport game within the confines of the FFXIV engine, nor has there ever been a successful real-time/action game that hasn't been plagued with cheaters and bots. Like just tampering with the nagle algorithm (TcpAckFrequency and TCPNoDelay to 1 in windows) gives you an advantage in MMO games that players may not otherwise have. Living in California or Montreal gives you an advantage or disadvantage depending which data center you're in.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

No wonder you don't see it if you just assumed it would be in a very specific way, while completely ignoring the fact that nothing is set in stone. Now, it would be a bit more reasonable if you assumed it would be a faithful representation of blitzball from FFX, but no. Your idea of how it would HAVE to work have nothing in common with it but the name and swimming in a dome, all the while assuming all the worse case scenarios. Sorry, but you are simply overlooking way too many things in the very limited view of sport games you seem to have.
1) There is no reason why it could be played with one person per team.
2) There is no reason why it couldn't have "time stops" for battles, to give few seconds to make decisions.
3) There is no reason why, if there would be teams, it wouldn't depend on those teams logging in. That's how statics work after all.

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Nothing is set, at all. You asked, I answered, then you assumed things I had not said. You asked why we couldn't have a real time sports game like FIFA, and that was how I answered it.

There's 4 scenarios

1) There is no player involvement, thus no fun, eg Retainer ventures, squadron missions. It's a collection game.
2) There is single-player vs NPC team, thus being pointless in a MMO context just like Triple Triad vs NPC's. If you want all the rewards you have to find all the players and play it thousands of times.
3) There is 1 on 1, basically "coach" mode where you essentially have a QTE of 3 seconds (same length that QTE for Shinryu is) to tell the player what to do, and the game server has to decide if that is a success or fail depending on issuing a command, ignoring a command, or which command makes sense. Some kind of tournament could be designed around this, but people would just throw it like Verminion to get rewards.
4) There is team vs team, which requires multiple players, just like existing duties, to be formed, but no tournament can be designed around. There's also nothing stopping teams from organizing just to throw it as well here.

It's not simple. There a issues with existing mini-games and existing PvP that need to be addressed, otherwise we're just extending those problems to more content, and that content will get played once and never again by most players, if not ignored entirely.

eg
- Throwing the match needs to be solved (Also a problem in PvP)
- Disconnecting to force a throw of the match needs to be solved
- Bot detection needs to be done (which is a problem in existing PvP)
- Some way of forming "static" teams that can persist beyond one play.

Like the last thing is probably the easiest to solve, but hear me out. There are already FC's and Linkshells in the game. The solution here is for a cross-server "team" being setup/signed up through a draft process like in an actual sports system. You select an "A League" and a "B League" which represent different leagues, of which you want to form a team with. "A Leagues" are cross-server, "B Leagues" are your server only. You start blitzball with no other players and a NPC team to teach you the basics, and it gives you a score of which position it thinks you should play (you can change your mind at this point.) Your draft score ensures that other teams can't just pick every best score either, as there will be a cap (eg can't have a team of all 100's.) On subsequent tournaments your score is re-evaluated if you decide to disband.

Then the game will either assign you to a team where there is a spot open for that position, or you can wait and form a team with other players you know. From that point forward all Blitzball games are played with the same players and matched against teams of the same skill level until tournament time. Then everyone has to be logged on for like 2-4 hours for the tournament to play out, and skipping out, drops your team out of the tournament entirely. If your team was assembled by PUG, then at the beginning and ending of each round you will be asked if you wish to proceed with your existing team and if you say no, the team is dissolved, and your team is withdrawn from the tournament. If someone d/c's, the tournament round will be paused for 5 minutes (timeout), at which point the team with the d/c'd player will get a "replace (player) with a free agent?" prompt and a list of available players online for that position will come up, and their W/L score up to the point they were withdrawn or eliminated from the tournament.

I'm not much of a sports-game player, and I don't really know, or care, how existing sports games deal with multiplayer, but suffice it to say if SE is hellbent on adding every minigame from FF's past to FFXIV, they really need to put more thought into it than the single-player minigames they were derived from. I don't know if these mini games were popular in Japan, but I was someone who ignored all the mini-games in the single-player FF games, primarily because they didn't advance the story. FFX's blitzball was a little different, I didn't care for it, but it was relevant because the main character, and Wakka was supposedly great at it and to get Wakka's final weapon you had to grind through it. I don't see similar rewards coming out of this for FFXIV.

Do we really want another source of grinding for tomes? Or getting "blitzball i375(BiS) gear" ? None of the other minigames give you anything that valuable.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

To be fair, that person has no business anywhere near Savage if they cannot handle that mechanic.

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Ikr, but the issue isn't only mechanics we talking about here. Too many healers struggle healing fights even when their own dps is super low or not even trying to dps.

Late as am to the thread...

* Instant death mechanics have been here since 2.0 so it's not a new thing to deal with healing power creep (although healing power creep is kind of a problem, and yeah, I'd say the ridiculous spam in o4s/o8s do show that...)
* Instant death mechanics aren't what makes healing hard. Vuln stacks and healing debuffs do. If someone fails an instant death mechanic and dies... it's acknowledged as that person's fault. Reset and soldier on. Vuln stacks, etc tend be more "Oh well the healers can just heal more, it doesn't really matter if I fail that mechanic."

My preference is more for DPS down debuffs. That really drives home the message "I shouldn't do that" without needing to instant kill someone, and doesn't punish the healer for a non-healing mistake.

Just resubbed and can't finish a Duty in the MSQ because of some massive amount of lags... Really, just logged off after about 8 failures. I'm really close to just closing my SE account and going back to WoW. I cannot take the lag.

This is the laggiest MMO I've ever played in my life. EverQuest over dial-up had a more reliable server connection.

Why is this still a problem in 2018. Tons of other games seem to have addressed it and moved on.

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Originally Posted by Trensharo

Just resubbed and can't finish a Duty in the MSQ because of some massive amount of lags... Really, just logged off after about 8 failures. I'm really close to just closing my SE account and going back to WoW. I cannot take the lag.

This is the laggiest MMO I've ever played in my life. EverQuest over dial-up had a more reliable server connection.

Why is this still a problem in 2018. Tons of other games seem to have addressed it and moved on.

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Well, where are you connecting from? Are you on wired or wireless? If other games play just fine and only XIV is the problem, your connection to SE's datacenter might be very poor. SE doesn't have control over that- your ISP does. And the farther away you are, the more likely you are to have issues. You can try posting in the Technical Support forums to get some troubleshooting tips from the Community Reps that monitor those boards if you want to.

I feel like this thread got derailed somewhat, but... healing in this game is super strong. I like challenging myself to be as efficient as possible with my healing but a lot of the time that means I am a "green DPS". I don't want to be stuck healing forever in this game since there aren't very many interesting decisions for me to make, but I think the balance can be tilted a bit more towards the "need to heal" side without dramatically increasing difficulty.

Also, they can take as long as they want to on Blitzball. I hated it in X and have no burning desire to see it anywhere else any time soon.

FWIW, I'd rather see the snowboarding game than blitzball.

My ISP isn't the problem, otherwise there would be hundreds if not thousands of complaints given who my ISP is. Tons of people in my FC are complaining about Lags, and I just DC'd. I can't do a MSQ Duty because it freezes for upwards of 30 seconds (if it doesn't outright disconnect) and things spawn and zip across the room at warp speed and fail it. I've gotten DC'd at least 5 times. But, thanks for giving the token response. I'm connecting from East Coast USA to Aether. My ISP is not the problem, and neither is my connection - wired or wireless.

I don't need to troubleshoot.

They do.

The game is borderline unplayable for me, and several others that I'm in contact with in-game. So annoyed by these "troubleshoot your internet" clueless responses.

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Originally Posted by Trensharo

My ISP isn't the problem, otherwise there would be hundreds if not thousands of complaints given who my ISP is. Tons of people in my FC are complaining about Lags, and I just DC'd. I can't do a MSQ Duty because it freezes for upwards of 30 seconds (if it doesn't outright disconnect) and things spawn and zip across the room at warp speed and fail it. I've gotten DC'd at least 5 times. But, thanks for giving the token response. I'm connecting from East Coast USA to Aether. My ISP is not the problem, and neither is my connection - wired or wireless.

I don't need to troubleshoot.

They do.

The game is borderline unplayable for me, and several others that I'm in contact with in-game. So annoyed by these "troubleshoot your internet" clueless responses.

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You are the clueless one here, my friend. If you had even a basic understanding of how your client connects to SE's servers you'd understand that lag and disconnects are not always the fault of the game publisher and are often due to bad routing on the part of your ISP. Try a VPN service and see if I'm right.

If all you're going to do is scream FIX IT then no one can help you. If you and your friends post about the issues you're having and give them something to work with, SE can look into it. I also connect to the game from the East Coast to Aether and it's been smooth sailing for me for months. So yes this could be a region and/or ISP-specific issue that affects you and your friends. But with scant information to go on, and you thinking you're above anyone's suggestions if it doesn't immediately solve your problem, you'll probably stay frustrated until you unsub. That's your prerogative but don't go dismissing advice as stupid just because you're too frustrated to take it.

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Originally Posted by Trensharo

My ISP isn't the problem, otherwise there would be hundreds if not thousands of complaints given who my ISP is. Tons of people in my FC are complaining about Lags, and I just DC'd. I can't do a MSQ Duty because it freezes for upwards of 30 seconds (if it doesn't outright disconnect) and things spawn and zip across the room at warp speed and fail it. I've gotten DC'd at least 5 times. But, thanks for giving the token response. I'm connecting from East Coast USA to Aether. My ISP is not the problem, and neither is my connection - wired or wireless.

I don't need to troubleshoot.

They do.

The game is borderline unplayable for me, and several others that I'm in contact with in-game. So annoyed by these "troubleshoot your internet" clueless responses.

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Take this to the tech forum then, report trace logs there.

Nearly 100% of "the game keeps dc'ing me" is your own hardware, and most of the time it's the WiFi Router/ISP router/Modem. When it's not your own hardware, the trace logs will show where something is being dropped.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Late as am to the thread...

* Instant death mechanics have been here since 2.0 so it's not a new thing to deal with healing power creep (although healing power creep is kind of a problem, and yeah, I'd say the ridiculous spam in o4s/o8s do show that...)
* Instant death mechanics aren't what makes healing hard. Vuln stacks and healing debuffs do. If someone fails an instant death mechanic and dies... it's acknowledged as that person's fault. Reset and soldier on. Vuln stacks, etc tend be more "Oh well the healers can just heal more, it doesn't really matter if I fail that mechanic."

My preference is more for DPS down debuffs. That really drives home the message "I shouldn't do that" without needing to instant kill someone, and doesn't punish the healer for a non-healing mistake.

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The problem there is that healing creep just makes people ignore the vulnerability debuffs. Now if the debuffs were always negative (eg burrs from Aurum Vale) as they stack and didn't time out, then perhaps we would see a mechanic that has a damage curve that is exponential that leads into a wipe if the healer doesn't remove the debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

FWIW, I'd rather see the snowboarding game than blitzball.

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That's probably something that would only ever be solo. One other MMO game that put snowboarding/skiing in, essentially just made it a ski-jump thing, and that was it.

Blitzball gameplay could be like ranged dps/healer gameplay, but with monks shoulder tackle and melee skills for close range. (just like in x)
Throw a ball at a team mate like you would a heal or buff..(tab target and press skill button)
Require tp and GCD to slow down the game for people with average/semi-high ping. (thats why they made the GCD iirc)
I dont need big rewards..gil would be nice. I wont even try it if it is another menu manager. Id rather un-sub.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Most MMO's doesn't even have healers, you gotta take care of your own healing. And if they made healing diffuculty higher than it is now, then a lot and I mean A LOT of people would struggle.

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I don't see how. It's the same thing, it'd just take more casts. As it stands now, I can spend over half my time not healing, easily. People pushing it to the limit can wind up barely doing any healing at all. That doesn't strike you as a problem on a role called "healer"?

There's plenty of room to make healers devote more casts to healing without making healing impossibly difficult. Those casts are coming out of DPS and/or stand-around-doing-nothing time. They also reduce the need for one shot mechanics by making killing people with periodic damage and running healers OOM actually feasible, which simply doesn't happen in most content right now.

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Originally Posted by Trensharo

My ISP isn't the problem, otherwise there would be hundreds if not thousands of complaints given who my ISP is. Tons of people in my FC are complaining about Lags, and I just DC'd. I can't do a MSQ Duty because it freezes for upwards of 30 seconds (if it doesn't outright disconnect) and things spawn and zip across the room at warp speed and fail it. I've gotten DC'd at least 5 times. But, thanks for giving the token response. I'm connecting from East Coast USA to Aether. My ISP is not the problem, and neither is my connection - wired or wireless.

I don't need to troubleshoot.

They do.

The game is borderline unplayable for me, and several others that I'm in contact with in-game. So annoyed by these "troubleshoot your internet" clueless responses.

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Out of curiosity are you European? There's been a lot of bizarre connection issues/lag for European players that has yet to be addressed unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Out of curiosity are you European? There's been a lot of bizarre connection issues/lag for European players that has yet to be addressed unfortunately.

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Not just European. My best friend is in the US and on Saturday he had to use a VPN and route to Mexico to make the game playable at all. But that was on Comcast as far as we can tell.

As far as latency issues goes - NTT is SE's chosen partner and they are the issue 100%. It's super easy to blame them, but in reality that isn't what fixes this. SE needs to work with NTT to ensure that users coming into their nodes are getting good results. Other gaming companies have done this in the past when widespread users reported issues. Before anyone tries to say it isn't widespread (because it doesn't affect them), please save it, it's documented even here on the OF in a 50+ page thread, as well as a litany of them elsewhere.

Regarding Bliztball - if it is more menu content, it will be a waste of resources/dead on arrival. The game does not need ANY more menu content. Here's the conundrum - do you design the content to be played/visited by the masses or do you simply design it to be the best it can/faithful/fun?

In my experience/opinion - these types of undertakings are best served by simply building the best possible iteration of the content form. In that, it will succeed on its own merit rather than artificially forcing it to be relevant to the masses.

What I would want out of Blitzball is a real live breathing match. Active gameplay elements, matchmaking, both solo and as a team, with ability to play against a range of AIs as well as PVP. It doesn't need to be some kind of scaling progression system, or have obscure rewards gated behind it, simply make it fun to play and people will participate.

It needs to be easily accessible, but deep at the same time. Build in functions to let FC's/statics/linkshells compete against each other for prizes. The idea is this should be something people can do during downtime for fun. Build in spectate options for people to watch.

If Chocobo Racing was basically Crash Team Racing/Mario Kart but with FF paint on it, I'd probably play it every single day with friends, but we got some awful implementation instead, basically dead on arrival.

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Originally Posted by Genz

And the fetishism on rewards needs to disappear. Bigger rewards doesn't make the content better, so if you think you need to put tomestones on blitzball, something is wrong.

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Problem is a lot of people won't do stuff if there is nothing attached to it. they may do it once or twice but without the carrot there is nothing keeping them there.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The reason they depend so heavily on instant-death mechanics is due to how insanely strong healing potencies are. Simple raid wide AoEs are rarely threatening because all three healers can bring players back to max HP in seconds or simply rely on Regen ticks since not enough happens to warrant a full heal.

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Thank god!
Nothing feels more frustrating than a healing design like WoW, where you spend your majority casting weak ass heals that barely manage to move the HP bar. >.<

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Nothing feels more frustrating than a healing design like WoW, where you spend your majority casting weak ass heals that barely manage to move the HP bar. >.<

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Now, if only we could get a DPS design that can one-three shot anything so DPS can get the same kind of health bar moving satisfaction.

Breaking the game? Maybe. But less frustrating than looking at a boss bar barely move. And we could just, like, add more mob waves or something to compensate. Then DPS could also have that downtime feeling of healers between them, where they could throw out a group buff or heal. And we could have an endless forum debate about DPS not healing/buffing during downtime. The joy!

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Thank god!
Nothing feels more frustrating than a healing design like WoW, where you spend your majority casting weak ass heals that barely manage to move the HP bar. >.<

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I would like to think there exists a balance between "weak ass heals" and heals so strong, you'll spend far more time DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Now, if only we could get a DPS design that can one-three shot anything so DPS can get the same kind of health bar moving satisfaction.!

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If a DPS needed to get a boss down to 0 HP in 3 seconds or they risked wiping the raid, ok. If you want healing to be like a DPS rotation, you'd really get some boring fights.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I would like to think there exists a balance between "weak ass heals" and heals so strong, you'll spend far more time DPSing.

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Get your red mage up to 70, try vercuring some. That's probably what, 50-75% of a healer cure potency, and the first thing you notice is that it's a weak ass heal. It's only real benefit is that it can be instant; notice there's never any "only rdm to heal" clears posted anywhere.

With dedicated healers, the potency would have to be even lower due to HoT and off gcsd. You'd have to make it 3-5k effective HP to more or less force healers to use heals, and you;d need to nerf off gcd healing a lot. SCH in particular would need to be gutted, since it relies mainly on non-direct cures.

You guys really don;t sit down and actually think what stuff like this may mean in practice. It's easy to say "healing potency is too much" but you need to sit down and actually post some kind of rough model people can agree or disagree with; not just say something needs to happen and not define a plan.

edit: like one particular mode of mmo playing is the "builder." A healer would do a small, low potency cure to build resources to spend on higher potency cures or attacks. Essentially instead of hitting the aetherflow button, you need to cast a 2k potency physick for maybe 30 sec to a minute to proc your stacks, then you have your spike cures or burst cures for upcoming attacks. But building modes of play are kind of sedate and slow, really.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You guys really don;t sit down and actually think what stuff like this may mean in practice. It's easy to say "healing potency is too much" but you need to sit down and actually post some kind of rough model people can agree or disagree with; not just say something needs to happen and not define a plan.

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I played WoW for years with those "weak ass heals", and their "stronger but healers still heal nearly full time" earlier incarnations, including in progression content. I know how it plays. Healers actually healed. Fights could kill you with one shots, with people eating avoidable but not lethal damage until you went OOM trying to keep up, and such.

The idea that this is some revolutionary insane concept is silly when the biggest MMO to ever exist does that exact thing to a higher degree than what's being proposed. You know what wasn't a thing in WoW? Healers spending 80% of their time DPSing and not healing.

I tend to think healers should spend more time healing than DPSing, and want a healing design to support that. Crazy stuff, right there.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

If a DPS needed to get a boss down to 0 HP in 3 seconds or they risked wiping the raid, ok. If you want healing to be like a DPS rotation, you'd really get some boring fights.

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Pretty sure that was sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Get your red mage up to 70, try vercuring some.

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I have red mage at lvl70, poorly geared to boot at item level just barely above 300. I still heal 10000 out of ~40000-50000HP that tanks with higher than me item level have. That's A LOT. Recently I was in a party where the healer did get disconnected. I managed to keep the party alive and sending an attack or two in the middle. Sure, I didn't get to heal the members to full HP or anything, just barely kept them alive...but I was not a healer. Of course, this was only in a dungeon, and I think lvl60 one. But hey.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It's only real benefit is that it can be instant; notice there's never any "only rdm to heal" clears posted anywhere.

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Of course there's never any clears posted with red mages being the sole healers. Why?! Every heal that red mages use IS A DPS LOSS. Why would a red mage cast heals if they can deal more damage than the healer can with every cast, and on top of that the healer can cast only ONE heal for a similar effect that the red mage needs TWO? Red mages are able to solo-heal a LOT of content. But it's STUPID for them to do it when the party WILL have a healer.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

I played WoW for years with those "weak ass heals", and their "stronger but healers still heal nearly full time" earlier incarnations, including in progression content. I know how it plays. Healers actually healed. Fights could kill you with one shots, with people eating avoidable but not lethal damage until you went OOM trying to keep up, and such.

The idea that this is some revolutionary insane concept is silly when the biggest MMO to ever exist does that exact thing to a higher degree than what's being proposed. You know what wasn't a thing in WoW? Healers spending 80% of their time DPSing and not healing.

I tend to think healers should spend more time healing than DPSing, and want a healing design to support that. Crazy stuff, right there.

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Then go play WoW, because trying to make that happen here would break the game.

They'd have to rebalance every single encounter in this game for a much lower, slower level of healing, and reduce a lot of spike damage in frequency and severity, as well as not limit the fights to 8 man instances with very strict enrages. You are asking for a nerf to every healing class, forcing them to spend a lot more effort to do their basic job-healing, with no benefit. I mean literally no benefit to them; reducing one hits isn't going to help any if my healing now needs a pretty strict rotation, and a slower wipe is a wipe just the same. You can maybe mitigate this by adding support abilities and keeping heals high potency but OGCD only, but that's such a radical change that would be on the level of HW bard.

I mean, ffs, the game works fine as is. The only issue with healing potency is in pvp. People need to stop suggesting changes that would break the game for no real defined goal.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Pretty sure that was sarcasm.

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Except my retort was explaining why DPS don't need that and healers do.

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I have red mage at lvl70, poorly geared to boot at item level just barely above 300. I still heal 10000 out of ~40000-50000HP that tanks with higher than me item level have. That's A LOT. Recently I was in a party where the healer did get disconnected. I managed to keep the party alive and sending an attack or two in the middle. Sure, I didn't get to heal the members to full HP or anything, just barely kept them alive...but I was not a healer. Of course, this was only in a dungeon, and I think lvl60 one. But hey.

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Go try sustain healing with that. You find quickly it's not enough.

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Of course there's never any clears posted with red mages being the sole healers. Why?! Every heal that red mages use IS A DPS LOSS. Why would a red mage cast heals if they can deal more damage than the healer can with every cast, and on top of that the healer can cast only ONE heal for a similar effect that the red mage needs TWO? Red mages are able to solo-heal a LOT of content. But it's STUPID for them to do it when the party WILL have a healer.

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you clear with it because you want the challenge, like clears with pld. And no, they cannot solo heal a lot of content. The tank gets hit by a 25k tankbuster, and you will get overwhelmed in time unless its a very easy fight.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Then go play WoW, because trying to make that happen here would break the game.

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I've told you a billion times to stop exaggerating.

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They'd have to rebalance every single encounter in this game for a much lower, slower level of healing, and reduce a lot of spike damage in frequency and severity, as well as not limit the fights to 8 man instances with very strict enrages. You are asking for a nerf to every healing class, forcing them to spend a lot more effort to do their basic job-healing, with no benefit. I mean literally no benefit to them; reducing one hits isn't going to help any if my healing now needs a pretty strict rotation, and a slower wipe is a wipe just the same. You can maybe mitigate this by adding support abilities and keeping heals high potency but OGCD only, but that's such a radical change that would be on the level of HW bard.

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No they wouldn't. Certain fights would need retuning. Most wouldn't, especially when they're old and vastly outgeared already anyway. Instead of it taking 2.5 seconds to recover from something, it'd take 5. Then I'm back to DPSing. Half the time no more damage is coming in that few seconds anyway, so it makes no difference whatsoever except lower healer DPS. And since people are so fond of telling us that they don't factor healer DPS into designing encounters, having less of it won't affect anything, right?

I mean, you seriously think that Xelphatol, the dungeon of 82% DPS time for healers, is going to suddenly break when that number drops to 60%? That's hilarious.

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I mean, ffs, the game works fine as is. The only issue with healing potency is in pvp. People need to stop suggesting changes that would break the game for no real defined goal.

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For certain definitions of "works" and for a very clearly defined goal. If you think "healers should spend more time healing than DPSing" is too complicated, then I really can't help you.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The problem there is that healing creep just makes people ignore the vulnerability debuffs. Now if the debuffs were always negative (eg burrs from Aurum Vale) as they stack and didn't time out, then perhaps we would see a mechanic that has a damage curve that is exponential that leads into a wipe if the healer doesn't remove the debuffs.

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I would have to disagree. They've been ignoring them since... as you point out, AV even.

I still think the root problem with vuln stacks isn't healing power creep. It's that it punishes the healer for a non-healing mistake. People don't really care about how much healing they require. But hurt their DPS, they care about that. It gives feedback between failing a mechanic and the consequences, which vuln stacks don't really do.

My 2 gil anyways.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I would like to think there exists a balance between "weak ass heals" and heals so strong, you'll spend far more time DPSing.

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Yes surely.
They can edit rezzing so it is way more punishing. Right now you can essentially rez as much as you want. An example would be that the mana cost doubles when cast infight or sth like that.
They can also rebalance mana consumption to make overhealing more of an issue.
They can definitely up encounter damage in non savage content so we get to cast more.

But to be perfectly frank: I prefer the concept of strong heals and quickly moving health bars over the concept of slowly regging people back up after a hit. I' rather have more ups and downs in rapid succession than one big hit and spending the next 20 seconds trying to recoup.

There is no right or wrong here, these are 2 different design philosophies. WoW had the former up until Cataclysm and then switched to the latter. That's also when healing stopped being fun for me, I'd hate to see the same happen in FF.

I do agree wholeheartedly that mobs in 4mans should stop hitting like wet noodles. There should be more to heal. That won't be happening though, considering that people going into a new dungeon overgear it by 30 item levels, even when we only wear tome gear.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

No they wouldn't. Certain fights would need retuning.

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You don't even necessarily need to re-tune fights. It's a lot easier than that.

When the next expansion comes around, you simply ramp up health pools massively while keeping the scaling of healing relatively the same so that the same healing potencies restore a smaller percentage of the health bar. Then you use the 10 levels you add anyway to introduce new healing mechanics via skills and traits so people don't need to spam the same skills, because that'd be boring. And you can tune the new fights to the new paradigm, leaving the old as they were.

We're living in vertical progression land. Health goes up anyway, new abilities/gameplay is introduced anyway, encounters are re-tuned to the new abilities and stats anyway. The only question is whether Yoshida would like healers to be healers or if he's fine with them being green DPS. As it stands, he says he'd like them to be healers but designs them as green DPS, which is just awkward.