First impressions of Eureka (FFXI player)

using wow, where if you don't have legendaries for your speck you are nothing as an example?
Also the talent system is criticized by ppl by not really having a choice.
AOE fight? bring AOE talents?
ST fight? guess what?
Cleave fight? Oh boy
your class sucks in this and/or you are not a rouge? Sit this one out

I could go on why that system is trash and inferior to the vanilla/tbc/wotlk system but let's not go in for long (and frankly even in those time most of the time you were playing a cookie cutter build)

Know what? let's just say this.
When I started wow I wanted to play a mage and decided to be a jack of all trades master of none one by taking talents from the 3 trees so I could be versatile to it, my idea was crushed stone cold when I learned exactly how I had to play because at end game you would simply not cut it.
Now I don't want to say that FFXI didn't had a system that worked, but the game was built with that in mind as Reynhart say and that's why in my opinion asking for it to be applued here won't work.
Ppl complain about the ilvl reward of eureka? Remember diadem 1.0? ppl complaine about it beign better than savage (now ofc ppl have forgot about it because why not?) remember the 280 weapon rng locked behind a non brainless grind? (the moaning was even louder).
As I stated ppl reap what you sow and most ppl feedback have literally no foresight. When they announced Eureka I knew it was going to be like this day one, because they literally said that, I was disappointed then and I was sure ppl would've complained, can't say I'm disappointed now because honestly I was expecting it.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

using wow where if you don't have legendaries for your speck you are nothing as an example?
Also the talent system is criticized by ppl by not really having a choice.
AOE fight? bring AOE talents?
ST fight? guess what?
Cleave fight? Oh boy
your class sucks in this and/or you are not a rouge? Sit this one out

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I'm not saying wow is perfect (actually the game suffers from the same issues as FFXIV since wow 3.0, when they homogenized all the classes, but there are still more variations there) but at least they try to do something. Legendaries were a good idea, it was the execution and how you obtained them that was terrible.

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I could go on why that system is trash and inferior to the vanilla/tbc/wotlk system but let's not go in for long (and frankly even in those time most of the time you were playing a cookie cutter build)
(0)

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That's mostly because even back in the day they were already only so many different situations in PVE situations. Wow was never as deep as FFXI in that regard.

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Now I don't want to say that FFXI didn't had a system that worked, but the game was built with that in mind as Reynhart say and that's why in my opinion asking for it to be applued here won't work.

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I'm not asking that they implement FFXI's battle system in FFXIV, just that they actually try to work on the battle system to improve it (btw they promised to do it during the fan festivals before stormblood, but they finally didn't deliver on that promise).

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Ppl complain about the ilvl reward of eureka? Remember diadem 1.0? ppl complaine about it beign better than savage (now ofc ppl have forgot about it because why not?) remember the 280 weapon rng locked behind a non brainless grind? (the moaning was even louder).

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The issue isn't only the ilvl, the issue is that SE told us there were going to be effects on the Eureka gear that would only work and Eurekka, and more generally people were expecting gear that had different skin than what they already have. Also, as I stated, the issue isn't the ilvl but rather the amount of grind required to obtain something of an inferior ilvl to what you actually can obtain elsewhere with a lesser amount of 'work'.

And it is only natural that players complained when in diadem 1.0 you could obtain better gear than what you could obtain with way more work, randomly and without any effort. There is a middle ground to find, something SE seems not to understand.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Video games are about entertainment, and getting the exact same skin with slightly better statistics isn't exciting nor entertaining.

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Zenith, Atma, Animus, Novus, etc...were all reskinned of the basic relic, but at the end, you gained a very unique (and arguably beautiful) skin for your weapon. The first stages of Anima were also reskinned of the tome weapon, but then, it changed drastically...to end on something a little meh for me, but still unique.
There's no reason to assume the Eureka weapon will kee the same skin for the next stages.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Relics were a good example because they required a huge grind. But the reward was largely worth it and up to the required grind.

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That's not a problem with the relic, it's a problem with tomestones and raids. Tomestone weapons shouldn't exist, they're far too powerful for how stupidly easy you can obtain them. As for raids, if you make the relic weapon more powerful, they'll just cry endlessly. My solution would be to remove raid weapons (and accesories) too. That way, if you want the truly best gear, you have to do every content and not only raiding.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Ask yourself a question : when did SE actually start designing something with innovative or with compelling mechanics (eg that isn't only more damage/healing/mitigation) when it comes to the battle system in FFXIV ? The answer is never.

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I'd say 2.0. But the backlash on Titan was so hard that they toned down everything after that.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Additionally, as you have stated, added effects on gear would translate to DPS increase (or healing and mitigation), therefore it wouldn't be that hard to balance and/or to make sure nothing is mandatory. But yes it would actually make SE game designers work for a change.

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They would only be mandatory if you want the absolute perfect character, for which the raid/relic weapons are already "mandatory". However, if Berserk was only changed to auto-crit and the auto-DH was put on the WAR new relic, every WAR would have gladly rushed to Eureka...

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

You'd think with the amount of time it took them to develop this ( on top of it's delay as well), it wouldn't need any work. One would think.......

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thats kinda the main issue, isnt it?

There are 4 camps when it comes to stuff like this:

1. You like it as is
2. You like it but want changes to make it even better
3. You dont like it but would if there were changes made
4. You dont like it period.

IN the case of Eureka... I happen to like it. Its not something that I am going to do for 9hrs a day, but Ill chip away at it. I would however like to see things inside it that clearly should have been implemented (Hunt board, Daily/weekly, treasure maps, gathering/crafting, siege/defense)

If I wanted to play FFXI I would go and play it.

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Originally Posted by ThysGuy

THIS. ISN'T. FINAL. FANTASY XI!! FFXI ENDED 2 years ago! Let it go!

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Nope. It's still running.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Please do not forget that FFXI items used to have unique effects, and the relics used to allow the use of special weapon skills. Thus the long grind in FFXI needed to obtain such item was rewarded. With the current system, the long grind isn't rewarded at all.

And the second part of your post is pure speculation of your part. In my opinion it will be like everything else in FFXIV : There ll still be ways to obtain gear of better ilvl (that isn't really usefull in the first place unless you're doing the so called raids of ffxiv) faster than doing Eureka.

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Just imagine the tears if you got a new WS in FFXIV based on your relic (they totally should do this). and while they are at it, they need to ENSURE that the end stages of the relic weapon ARE the best (or slightly second best)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Zenith, Atma, Animus, Novus, etc...were all reskinned of the basic relic, but at the end, you gained a very unique (and arguably beautiful) skin for your weapon. The first stages of Anima were also reskinned of the tome weapon, but then, it changed drastically...to end on something a little meh for me, but still unique.
There's no reason to assume the Eureka weapon will kee the same skin for the next stages.

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Sure the skin of the future gear may be different but it doesn't change the fact that you currently need to spend an insane amount of time grinding to obtain something that is no different than what you can obtain elsewhere and more easily. The old relics were criticized for that fact as well. And I'm not only talking about skins here but also about the entertainment factor of getting the new item. As it stand, it is simply dull and boring, and people are generally tired of that.

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I'd say 2.0. But the backlash on Titan was so hard that they toned down everything after that.

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I don't think you understood my post.

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They would only be mandatory if you want the absolute perfect character, for which the raid/relic weapons are already "mandatory". However, if Berserk was only changed to auto-crit and the auto-DH was put on the WAR new relic, every WAR would have gladly rushed to Eureka...

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And how would that be an issue ? As you said yourself " that way, if you want the truly best gear, you have to do every content and not only raiding." A new player would only have to prioritize and there could be ways to ensure anyone willing can obtain the items. Plus it is not your job nor mine to come up with potential effects on gear.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Just imagine the tears if you got a new WS in FFXIV based on your relic (they totally should do this). and while they are at it, they need to ENSURE that the end stages of the relic weapon ARE the best (or slightly second best)

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I actually think there would be far less complaining, because that way you'd know you'd be grinding for a reason. It could also just change the skin of your spells/WS like the legendary weapons in GW2. Here again they don't even do that because SE doesn't seem to want putting a lot of money in FFXIV (it is far more profitable to design cosmetic items to sell in the cash shop).

As an example I grinded for the first relic back in ARR, because I believed the last step would have something special. That wasn't the case so I didn't grind in HW. Also, they don't need to make the weapon the "best" just to try to find a way to make these item exciting, the way they were in FFXI. Nobody complained about the gear in FFXI. Arguably how the gear was designed was probably one of the best success of FFXI, one SE didn't try to capitalize on.

Just had 3 NM's pop at the same time. The whole instance coordinated and took them down one at a time. Everybody was helping to raise people and we all seem to be one big team. It was a lot of fun and not to mention I got 30 lockboxes total and a level and a half.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Want me to use the actual meta as an example then? It is the same thing, when something is simply better even for a 0.1% the community will impose it to everyone.

Also nobody is asking such boring modifiers? Yes you are right ppl are asking modifiers without saying what it is so in my opinion what I wrote was fitting because all that ppl are doing is asking for something as abstract as possible

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Ill use DRG as an example, and ill use a skill that already exists, but it makes the point.

Imagine you didnt have fang and claw. You get your 335 relic (Ryunohige), and you get the weaponskill "Fang and Claw" when equipped.

At 340, when you get Ryunohige +1 you get "Sharper Fang and Claw"

Ultimately, when you get it to the last stage, you would get Fang and Claw: Anemos. This would be exclusory, sure. But, it would also make the questing/grinding totally worth it, while also changing the way you do your rotation/etc.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Nobody complained about the gear in FFXI. Arguably how the gear was designed was probably one of the best success of FFXI, one SE didn't try to capitalize on.

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Totally agree with you there. They need to actually hear/see this and implement it.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Sure the skin of the future gear may be different but it doesn't change the fact that you currently need to spend an insane amount of time grinding to obtain something that is no different than what you can obtain elsewhere and more easily.

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But you have no idea how the next step will be. If it's really short because they think they overdid the first step, then, technically, the reward/time ratio for the first+second stage will be far better. Exactly like the Anima 230 that could be completed in a single day if you farm enough tomestones after the really long 210 step..

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

And how would that be an issue ?

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For me, it wouldn't and shouldn't, since it's already isn't. That's, again, why I think the "official" reasoning is weird. But again, it wouldn't be the first time they don't realize a "balance" problem they fear already exists and, in fact, isn't that much of problem.

I would give eureka time - in the long run it should be close to on par with obtaining close to the best weps and armour in the game. In regards to the grind, I’d like to see a post from someone who is close to level 20 as apparently drop rates and rewards are supposed to increase with level . Maybe it’s just very boring now cuz we are all low level?

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Ill use DRG as an example, and ill use a skill that already exists, but it makes the point.

Imagine you didnt have fang and claw. You get your 335 relic (Ryunohige), and you get the weaponskill "Fang and Claw" when equipped.

At 340, when you get Ryunohige +1 you get "Sharper Fang and Claw"

Ultimately, when you get it to the last stage, you would get Fang and Claw: Anemos. This would be exclusory, sure. But, it would also make the questing/grinding totally worth it, while also changing the way you do your rotation/etc.

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You do realize ppl will then start the complaining regardless right?

Let's say that fang and claw Actually fix problems in the DRG job like artifact abilities does in wow. Or like many bonus set have done in wow to the point they made them baseline because was punishing working without them.

@Stanelis I can agree that they should've giving weapons passives wortking inside Eureka and that is disappointing that they don't, asking for anything else with a game system that doesn't support it unless they completely rework the game from the ground up is foolish

I got lv7 and 400 crystals in a day and a half
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-some-feedback

the grind speed is okay, just need more contents
and remove the 180mins time limit, that's annoying.

In my opinion, I don't think the grind or mob aggro is a nuanced as you think it is... :B

Valkum dunes.....
Training goblin to the zone....
So much good memory...

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Valkum dunes.....
Training goblin to the zone....
So much good memory...

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Watching people zone in and see themselves dead because the sever loaded before their client did and the goblins killed them. Good times. (additional bonus for those same people who didn't set their home point in Selbina/VD)

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Originally Posted by Callinon

So I wanted to get this out there because there seems to be a lot of noise on this issue and a lot of misunderstanding from people who never played FFXI.

Eureka is FFXI in a bottle.

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I disagree entirely.

FFXI's combat had complexity. It mattered if you were fighting Goblins vs. Hornets vs. Bats vs. Crabs. It mattered if you were camped in an area where Undead spawned at night. It mattered if you had a Ninja vs. a Warrior tank. It mattered if you had a Black Mage or not. It mattered if you had a Summoner healing, or a White Mage. It significantly mattered if someone was under-geared. And, finally, it mattered if you liked the people you were partying with, because guess what - you actually had plenty of downtime to socialize.

Eureka has none of these things. There are no skill chains, no magic bursts, no adjustments based on party composition, no differences between the monsters. There's no downtime. So, to me, Eureka is FFXI, if you stripped out the socializing, sped up the pace, and took out any and all mechanics beyond mashing buttons as quickly as possible.

And from my perspective as an ex-FFXI player, it sucks balls.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

In addition to the normal sight/sound aggro already in FFXIV, I also noticed blood aggro is now a thing. Be careful about being at low hp around the undead. They like to eat that.

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I was fighting skeletons around a house for a while yesterday and suddenly was aggro'd by 3 of them that were out of walking range. I guess this explains that. For the record, despite all the issues I have with Eureka, I absolutely love stuff like this and wish things like the weather/sprite spawns and time of day enemies and different aggro types were expanded to the rest of the game world.

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Originally Posted by Tsunenori

I was fighting skeletons around a house for a while yesterday and suddenly was aggro'd by 3 of them that were out of walking range. I guess this explains that. For the record, despite all the issues I have with Eureka, I absolutely love stuff like this and wish things like the weather/sprite spawns and time of day enemies and different aggro types were expanded to the rest of the game world.

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Oh yea, I was so surprised yesterday that a Ghost aggro me when I am no where near it. In the end, my HP was at 50% so the ghost "blood aggro" me like it did in FF11.
When are we getting Sneak, Invisible and Deordorize potion?

I think there is also magic aggro. I tried to raise someone who had died on the way to a fate, and a sprite attacked me.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I think there is also magic aggro. I tried to raise someone who had died on the way to a fate, and a sprite attacked me.

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Considering that's existed in other content, including dungeons, my guess is that yeah there probably is.

What kept me playing FFXI was certainly not the grind, they took the worst part of FFXI and made a diadem out of it.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

I disagree entirely.

FFXI's combat had complexity. It mattered if you were fighting Goblins vs. Hornets vs. Bats vs. Crabs. It mattered if you were camped in an area where Undead spawned at night. It mattered if you had a Ninja vs. a Warrior tank. It mattered if you had a Black Mage or not. It mattered if you had a Summoner healing, or a White Mage. It significantly mattered if someone was under-geared. And, finally, it mattered if you liked the people you were partying with, because guess what - you actually had plenty of downtime to socialize.

Eureka has none of these things. There are no skill chains, no magic bursts, no adjustments based on party composition, no differences between the monsters. There's no downtime. So, to me, Eureka is FFXI, if you stripped out the socializing, sped up the pace, and took out any and all mechanics beyond mashing buttons as quickly as possible.

And from my perspective as an ex-FFXI player, it sucks balls.

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If you really think there's no difference in the monsters you're fighting, go heal a party fighting bears.. or mindflayers.. or bees. Enjoy.

I didn't say it was a 1:1 copy, I said it was FFXI in a bottle. There are tiny bits of FFXI in Eureka's design. They didn't implement an entirely new combat system for it, no, but that would have been unreasonable.

Not even kidding but the relic grind is essentially the rogue dagger legendary from wow.

Break the anemos crystals and you make protean crystals very quickly
(the quest asked to break open some geodes to get some small minerals and hand them in to a guy THEN you had to bring in the geodes, the relic it's really that and you don't have weekly lockout, you can be done in a day or so for a +2 weapon)

make me miss my wyren companion even more as a dragoon

My main gripe with Eureka is that it is entirely for the relic grind. This shouldn't be the case. This ruins the whole area. Here's how I would have liked to see it.

• Drop the lockbox filth. This isn't overwatch. Just let the NMs drop their loot. We don't want sprinklers.
• Add A ALOT more NMs with unique spawning conditions such as spawning a goblin NM by trading a gold ingut to a ??? point. Trading 2 NM parts to another ??? to get a bigger NM etc.
• Loot. Loot. Loot. Loot. Glamours and AFs aren't enough, give us a reason to do this along side of Sigmascape. Give us a reason to do this at all. Lv10-69 loot from low tier NMs, Lv70 midtier gear from bigger NMs, and finally Raid tier gear from NMs that have enrage timers, special mechanics, and takes an alliance to kill.
• Make spawnable NMs untouchable by outside of party players. It needs to be a challenge, and a war of attrition, not a zerg fest.
• Mechanics such as having to sleep/stun the NM, tank swap, handle adds and so on.
• Again, LOOT. Preferably visually unique loot since SE is afraid of stats.

If they had put in a single gear piece that unlocks Fire V for BLM, I'd have done anything in this content without question. I think if you're going to be creatively bankrupt on the content design, at least make up for it on the reward side of the equation. I know YoshiP is against adding in special effects, traits, or anything interesting on gear, but... is it that bad to actually have your players desire gear? Do you think party finder is going to get any worse than it already is?

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Originally Posted by Recruiter

My main gripe with Eureka is that it is entirely for the relic grind. This shouldn't be the case. This ruins the whole area. Here's how I would have liked to see it.

• Drop the lockbox filth. This isn't overwatch. Just let the NMs drop their loot. We don't want sprinklers.
• Add A ALOT more NMs with unique spawning conditions such as spawning a goblin NM by trading a gold ingut to a ??? point. Trading 2 NM parts to another ??? to get a bigger NM etc.
• Loot. Loot. Loot. Loot. Glamours and AFs aren't enough, give us a reason to do this along side of Sigmascape. Give us a reason to do this at all. Lv10-69 loot from low tier NMs, Lv70 midtier gear from bigger NMs, and finally Raid tier gear from NMs that have enrage timers, special mechanics, and takes an alliance to kill.
• Make spawnable NMs untouchable by outside of party players. It needs to be a challenge, and a war of attrition, not a zerg fest.
• Mechanics such as having to sleep/stun the NM, tank swap, handle adds and so on.
• Again, LOOT. Preferably visually unique loot since SE is afraid of stats.

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I like a lot of those. There's some good stuff in there.

I'd be cautious about putting anything too mechanically complex in an open area like this, but the rest of it absolutely. I was actually just thinking it would be a lot better if there were a bazillion more NMs dropping the stuff the lockboxes are currently dropping (minus the fireworks... f the fireworks). Basically if they're going to make Abyssea - FFXIV Edition, MAKE ABYSSEA. Hell we've already got visitant status.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Which is still 3 years after XIV lost any chance of being innovative in its formula. Should we "let go" our desire to have something different too ?

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You SAY you desire "different," but This is recycled content, content that's already been done, and was hit or miss. Why bring it back? My point stands and yours falls flat. The game NO LONGER HAS SUPPORT FROM SQUARE!! Stopped 2 years ago. Leave it in the past and design new things. I'm all for new.

But Eureka? That ain't new!

I know SE has been saying that adding additional effects to gear sets would be a risky move for multiple reasons, but Eureka is the perfect testing ground for something like this to see how the community would like it!
Add effects to the relic armor and weapons, for example one thing that crossed my mind when upgrading my SMN to +1's and +2's, the Channeler's Horn +2, "Increases damage of Egi attacks." but make those effects only be active inside Eureka, make the gear worth getting and upgrading to be used inside Eureka for more than just bragging rights of being able to dye the final set and for future usage when this content gets expanded on and we can upgrade it to next stage.

As someone who dedicated quite a bit time into the early days on XI up to the days Abyssea, I'm loving Eureka so far, the grind for next level, the level down risk of running into area you are not meant to be yet, forming exp groups and setting up camp and pull monster after monster, competing with a nearby group to see who could pull and kill their the fastest, the danger of high level monsters killing you, everything!

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Originally Posted by ThysGuy

The game NO LONGER HAS SUPPORT FROM SQUARE!!

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Sure...that's why it still receives monthly updates. The only thing that stopped 2 years ago is the "story" content.

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Originally Posted by ThysGuy

Why bring it back?

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Because some people like this type of content. You don't ? Then don't do it, and wait for your turn to receive a content that fits your playstyle...if XIV doesn't already offers that...and if it does, then play this content and let us enjoy the recent one that we like.
I personally don't care about receiving the same type of dungeons over and over and over, shoud I come here and say that ARR and HW already did it, so it's time for Stormblood to shift completely ?

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Originally Posted by ThysGuy

But Eureka? That ain't new!

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This is new in XIV. If you don't find it new because other games have done it, then why aren't you complaining about every other content in XIV since nothing it actually ever did was new ?

Didn't FFXI receive an update recently? I'm positive they had a callback campaign sometime ago with some updates to it

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Originally Posted by YakushiHinata

I know SE has been saying that adding additional effects to gear sets would be a risky move for multiple reasons, but Eureka is the perfect testing ground for something like this to see how the community would like it!

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I thought of some additionnal effects that could be interesting to have but not gamebreaking. Imagine if Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust still have their native potency of whatever it was at the start (100, IIRC), and the Eureka relic increased them to what the 260 they are now, but keeping the positionnal potency untouched.

Technically, a perfect player that would hit all positionals would not see a change with it, but for less skilled ones, it could be a good way to catch up a little. And even for good ones, it would help a little for the few times you can't actually hit your position.

PLD's divine mastery on Clemency is also not that big of a deal in savage raid, where the party don't expect them to heal themselves. So, if the Eureka was the one to hold this effect, if wouldn't change the raid meta, but could help a lot for PLDs who like to play solo.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Not even kidding but the relic grind is essentially the rogue dagger legendary from wow.

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And we didn't get a cool hologram of us murdering deathwing when we got them unlike those jerks with the stick!

That makes me think though, why not have a neat cosmetic button like the Fangs (just without the cooldown that rendered it 90% pointless and 10% fun). Why couldn't we poke the button to toggle on a neat particle effect or something?

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Originally Posted by ThysGuy

THIS. ISN'T. FINAL. FANTASY XI!! FFXI ENDED 2 years ago! Let it go!

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You seem to be very sore about it. I guess Valkurm was too much for you lol.

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Originally Posted by cakesphere

The problem is they gated a relic behind this mess.

I don't want to play ffxi when I log on. I want to play ffxiv. Why the **** does relic require this

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Don't worry, you're not playing FFXI by doing Eureka. Congratulations!

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

Eureka is not FFXI.

/thread

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This, so much. Stop comparing this crappy atempt at reskinning Diadem with a couple of FFXI mechanics (magic aggro and blood aggro) with something as, at the very least, deep as FFXI is.