Extreme primals do not belong in Mentor roulette.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

I love mentor roulette because it's sometimes an actual challenge... and despite their sarcasm I agree that Alex and coils should be added to mentor roulette... I seem to only ever get guildhests when I queue for it...

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Coil is Savage level content. Imagine taking brand new players with no endgame experience into Phantom Train or Guardian Savage. I wish you well teaching them that.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

I love mentor roulette because it's sometimes an actual challenge... and despite their sarcasm I agree that Alex and coils should be added to mentor roulette... I seem to only ever get guildhests when I queue for it...

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Normal Alex and Omega are, in my opinion, the perfect use case for Mentor roulette. On-par difficulty for the average novice, with just enough mechanics that mentorship is helpful and impactful and can prevent a few wipes. Ex primals are just too hard for average groups. They should either be nerfed so that pug groups can clear them synced or removed from any automatic group finder altogether.

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Originally Posted by Oakley

Normal Alex and Omega are, in my opinion, the perfect use case for Mentor roulette. On-par difficulty for the average novice, with just enough mechanics that mentorship is helpful and impactful and can prevent a few wipes. Ex primals are just too hard for average groups. They should either be nerfed so that pug groups can clear them synced or removed from any automatic group finder altogether.

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You sound like a coward who just wants easy rides all the time. Just don''t do the roulette if you can't stomach an EX primal.

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Originally Posted by Oakley

Normal Alex and Omega are, in my opinion, the perfect use case for Mentor roulette. On-par difficulty for the average novice, with just enough mechanics that mentorship is helpful and impactful and can prevent a few wipes. Ex primals are just too hard for average groups. They should either be nerfed so that pug groups can clear them synced or removed from any automatic group finder altogether.

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While I don't agree with your original post, I do agree about Alex and Omega. These are pretty great for mentors to actually do some mentoring (ideally...we all know how some mentors tend to act in this roulette).

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

You sound like a coward who just wants easy rides all the time. Just don''t do the roulette if you can't stomach an EX primal.

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I'm not trying to get an easy ride. I'm trying to prevent negative interactions between mentors and novices that ultimately result from Extreme primals encountered via the roulette. I had to clear all those primals myself when they were relevant, so I'm certainly not afraid to "stomach" doing them. And name-calling doesn't really contribute to discussion.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

While I don't agree with your original post, I do agree about Alex and Omega. These are pretty great for mentors to actually do some mentoring (ideally...we all know how some mentors tend to act in this roulette).

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IMO the best cases for Mentor roulette are normal and hard mode trials, normal mode raids, and maybe some hard mode dungeons, since they are semi-challenging content where new players could benefit from having that guidance.

I've done over 2000 mentor roulettes and I don't see the issue with the EX primals being in the mentor roulette.

I mean yes new players would be likely better off using PF and unsync, and I have advised players that if they wish to complete it quicker or with less frustration then PF WT unsync is the way to go instead of DFing it.

But some players maybe prefer the bit more challenge that sync offers, whatever, everyone plays differently. I personally probably wouldn't bother on old content if I was late to the game, but some might not feel that way and they are entitled to use DF as they wish.

I mean EX primals is the single only thing in that roulette that is somewhat more time consuming and difficult. A few of them are quite hard and yeah you rarely get a clear, but if you get one just try to help in whatever way you can for however long you have to offer. It isn't really that bad and that is coming from someone with over 2000 runs done...I saw my fair share of EX Primals. I helped quite a few groups get clears.

In general the majority of duties you get through mentor roulette are not EX primals, so I don't see it as an issue if you get them sometimes...just try to help.

As for Alex and Omega normal I 100% agree they should be in mentor roulette...confuses me why they aren't. Nevermind I just didn't look first, they did add those in finally.

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Originally Posted by Miste

As for Alex and Omega normal I 100% agree they should be in mentor roulette...confuses me why they aren't.

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Normal modes are. Savage aren't and shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by Oakley

Normal modes are. Savage aren't and shouldn't be.

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Oh I guess they finally added them, nevermind. I meant normal modes not savage.

You done the work to unlock Mentor roulette and became a "Mentor". Your a Teacher, you don't think Teachers have negative experiences?! Lol.

Now be that Mentor you'd want to have; and deal with it! /shades ;P

heh? :thonking: mentor roulette is just there to fill queues which is one of the smartest things they ever made.

Overall, having Ex primals isn't too much of a bad thing in my opinion. These fights are all exceptionally well designed and it's really a shame that they can all be blitzed through unsynced now. Are you expecting to always get a clear? Of course not, but with every wipe and fail you're helping the newer players understand the mechanics and get used to strategies they will need to learn for future fights - which is basically the point of Mentor roulette, and being a Mentor.

I had Titan extreme the other day for my mentor roulette, and after literally 40 minutes of wiping, we managed to clear and it was SUCH a great feeling. Not only for the people who cleared, but also for me being able to guide them through it and experience a fight I used to love properly (Without just unsyncing and beating him up in a couple of minutes). I could have just left as soon as I entered with the thought that it was hopeless -- but we did it and people learned!

All I can say is to just try your best to teach people and help them - don't always expect the clear, and just enjoy taking part in content that you'll otherwise never experience again.

People in this thread keep acting like mentor roulette is "impossible" because of the pretty low odds that you'll get a ex primal but at the same time I know mentors just on my own server who got the mentor 2 seater mount over a year ago.

Idk about y'all bit usually when do it I get guildhests, msq primals, qarn, or bayflox.

The issue, in my opinion, has nothing to do with player skill, it's the ignorance that comes with (at least on EU) a multilingual DF.

Sure, you can sit and type out mechanics all day, but there's absolutely zero guarantee that everybody understands it, which wouldn't be so bad if people actually spoke up. If people would actually learn to communicate, yes, even via auto translate, instead of being ignorant and continuing to do the same stupid mistakes over and over again, extreme primals wouldn't be so infuriating.

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Originally Posted by Oakley

But that's my point. Novices aren't "average players", they're novices, i.e. new to the game. And even if they were average players, is it really reasonable to expect content with "Extreme" in the title to be designed for average players?

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they queue for it, otherwise it wouldnt pop. And what player is more appropriate to help them than a "mentor"?

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If you think EX trials shouldn't be in the mentor roulette, it's you who shouldn't be in the mentor roulette. You are litterally donating your time when queuing for it, so if you aren't ready to saddle up for the whole ride, do all other mentors a favor and don't even wear the crown.

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If you think me queueing for mentor roulette means I am willingly enslaving myself to poor play and people who just will not listen or "get" mechanics, you're sadly mistaken.

It is no more a "donation of time" than it is in any other roulette, and just as many people would not tolerate an expert dungeon that took more than a half hour to complete, I'm not willing to tolerate wasting that much time against Ramuh EX when it's absolutely clear the group is getting nowhere, either.

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At lvl 50+, basic job knowledge should be known. I don't mind teaching fight mechanics, but those are honestly not usually the problem. It's tanks who don't know what a cool down is, or how to provoke. Spending 30 minutes teaching that in endgame content is not what mentors are for.

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This. Lost count of how many Garuda EX runs I've gotten that just fell apart because they could never get past adds, no matter how blue in the face I got trying to tell the main tank not to grab both the adds + trying to tell everyone else to then separate the adds.

Simply put, extremes are not for everyone, yet the game makes no real attempt to tell the player "hey, you're getting into some serious shit now, you better actually know what you're doing and not expect to just get carried like in everything else so far"

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

they queue for it, otherwise it wouldnt pop. And what player is more appropriate to help them than a "mentor"?

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There's a difference between mentoring, i.e. providing guidance and assistance, and outright teaching an entire encounter that, back when the content was relevant, took people--skilled players, might I add--several dozens if not hundreds of attempts to clear. My suggestion is that Extremes are removed from all Duty Finder random matching queues outright, but it would only apply to Mentor Roulette.

You may not have to unlock mentor roulette to be a mentor... but you do have to become a mentor to unlock Mentor Roulette, and you’re forced to have the crown on when you queue for it. This seems to make it clear that the Mentor Roulette is not some kind of free extra roulette reward for unlocking your mentor status. You’re expected to exemplify your mentor status when you queue for the roulette. Meaning it’s not meant as just another way to get tomes.

They do belong in Mentor. They have new mechanics that need to be taught. Mentor is their so you can teach someone who has never ran the content how to do it properly. Its not just another bonus QUE

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Originally Posted by Oakley

There's a difference between mentoring, i.e. providing guidance and assistance, and outright teaching an entire encounter that, back when the content was relevant, took people--skilled players, might I add--several dozens if not hundreds of attempts to clear. My suggestion is that Extremes are removed from all Duty Finder random matching queues outright, but it would only apply to Mentor Roulette.

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you talk about groups that started progressing ex primals with min ilvl and that had no echo. People heavily outgear those fights nowadays, even when synced + you get the echo buff, which makes them mostly trivial and easy to teach

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

you talk about groups that started progressing ex primals with min ilvl and that had no echo. People heavily outgear those fights nowadays, even when synced + you get the echo buff, which makes them mostly trivial and easy to teach

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But, again, the comparison isn't accurate. Max item level sync and 5 stacks of echo mean nothing when groups can't time avoiding knockbacks in Titan, break stuns in Ramuh, and dodge cane/sword in Shiva. These kill people immediately regardless of item level; they're pure mechanics.

In appropriate mentor content, a mentor should be able to provide guidance while still mostly being able to carry the group. This is why mentoring works in normal Alexander and normal Omega; the fights are mechanic-intensive, so they benefit from a mentor's ability to teach, but not mechanically PUNISHING, unlike Extreme primals. In Alex and Omega, messing up a mechanic might kill you but not screw the group. That's the opposite of Extremes, where one person screwing up can cause a wipe. That's probably the biggest distinction and the best reason for removing Extremes from the roulette.

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Originally Posted by Aniond

They have new mechanics that need to be taught.

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Originally Posted by Aniond

Mentor is their so you can teach someone who has never ran the content how to do it properly.

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You know that putting these two things together is a reason that Ex Primals SHOULD be in the mentor roulette right?

I just want to mention that Ramuh is basically impossible to mentor roulette especially if one or more tanks are new. The only way to mentor that one is on tank, and hope that the other tank knows how to do it.

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

I just want to mention that Ramuh is basically impossible to mentor roulette especially if one or more tanks are new. The only way to mentor that one is on tank, and hope that the other tank knows how to do it.

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What part can you not explain in text?

After getting Nidhogg EX, which I'd only cleared once, and never healed, in a mentor roulette, I don't really mind getting the EX primals anymore. I healed it and we got four people a clear.

Once in a while you still get people that don't think it's as hard as it's gonna be (I got a group in Ramuh EX that didn't wanna do the work, so I put together a PF for them to unsync it after we wiped a few times and got 7 their clear, explaining the mechanics as we went), but if the people are willing to put in the work, so am I, I'll do it the legit way.

heh, reminds me of one time I queued for Levi EX and as we approached the time limit the mentor started complaining about how they wanted to get back to gathering. I think only us sprouts were even discussing the mechanics lol

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Originally Posted by execool

heh, reminds me of one time I queued for Levi EX and as we approached the time limit the mentor started complaining about how they wanted to get back to gathering. I think only us sprouts were even discussing the mechanics lol

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This is why the mentor roulette has no good rewards

I’ve done well over 2000 mentor roulettes, and I can say that I’ve had more clears than fails in regards to ex primals. The only ones I have issues with are like ramuh and thordan. I’m convinced thordan ex is impossible in mentor roulette, just because there’s so many phases/mechs. I’ve been able to teach all the other ones (majority were ARR primals) and get clears, even when I was the only one who knew the fight. Teaching tank mechs in ramuh is a major headache, though. Makes you wanna bang your head on your desk repeatedly.

Like i said before.The main issue is a lot of these mentors got carried through the EX fights and dont know the mechanics.Its why they are complaining about them being in mentor roulette.
They are used to having everything the easy way and cant accept that they will have to work hard for their mount.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

What part can you not explain in text?

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I didn't say you can't explain it. When I was farming for the pony I had a macro that explained it in detail too. But you can explain every part yet it takes a new tank practice to follow them. Usually there is not enough practice runs in a pug group for both tanks to get the hang of it within the duration of the run or before people start leaving.

Also because of the stacking echo, each pull has slightly different timings that throw new tanks off.

And half the time the tanks don't actually know how to tank swap in the first place.

And that's just the tanks, don't even start about how every chaotic that the dps/healers mess up is guaranteed two deaths.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

After getting Nidhogg EX, which I'd only cleared once, and never healed, in a mentor roulette, I don't really mind getting the EX primals anymore. I healed it and we got four people a clear.

Once in a while you still get people that don't think it's as hard as it's gonna be (I got a group in Ramuh EX that didn't wanna do the work, so I put together a PF for them to unsync it after we wiped a few times and got 7 their clear, explaining the mechanics as we went), but if the people are willing to put in the work, so am I, I'll do it the legit way.

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It was a decent kickstart for me to play new roles in things besides Level/Expert roulette. Surprised I managed to grasp tank-Ramuh as quickly as I did.

Am I missing something? Why do people queue for Extreme Primals to begin with? Wouldn't you just party finder that stuff? I feel like you have a significantly greater chance of success with that...

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Originally Posted by Oakley

But, again, the comparison isn't accurate. Max item level sync and 5 stacks of echo mean nothing when groups can't time avoiding knockbacks in Titan, break stuns in Ramuh, and dodge cane/sword in Shiva. These kill people immediately regardless of item level; they're pure mechanics.

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so you want new people to never learn those fights? Noone joins pf synced groups, so mentors from mentor roulette are the only way for them to get some help

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Originally Posted by Belisaire

Am I missing something? Why do people queue for Extreme Primals to begin with? Wouldn't you just party finder that stuff? I feel like you have a significantly greater chance of success with that...

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The one time the game teaches you about pf is at level 15 when you have no use for it and you're free to forget about it afterward. Most players who go into extreme trials simply don't know better. Which is one reason why, absurdly, a mentor going in there via roulette and telling them to pf it is one of the most valuable lessons they can get out of any single ex trial, regardless of clearing it that time or not

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

...Usually there is not enough practice runs in a pug group for both tanks to get the hang of it within the duration of the run or before people start leaving.

Also because of the stacking echo, each pull has slightly different timings that throw new tanks off.

And half the time the tanks don't actually know how to tank swap in the first place.

And that's just the tanks, don't even start about how every chaotic that the dps/healers mess up is guaranteed two deaths.

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sounds rough.

But someone has gotta teach them right? Even if they don't pass it that time I'd think it'd be a valuable learning experience. Maybe there should be a heavier penalty for leaving a mentor roulette if you're a mentor? Make people stick around and make sure the lesson is learned instead of ditching people for not learning it fast enough.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

But someone has gotta teach them right?

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Please take a moment to realize how entitled and lazy this question is. People played this game, many, many people, long before the mentor system, let alone the roulette, were introduced. People still are able to clear new content, even Savage and Ultimate without someone having done it before them. The sprouts can learn from the same people all those other players did before them - themselves. Failing practical experience, it's not like it's impossible to find a video or two which could help a lot more than a text spam, especially for people who perceive things better visually rather than verbally. And if they want a carry and can't do the bare minimum to not get the party to wipe constantly, that is not the Mentor's fault nor their responsibility to pick up the slack. Mentors still are, at the end of it, regular players who have every right to worry about how their own sub-time is spent

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Maybe there should be a heavier penalty for leaving a mentor roulette if you're a mentor?

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Mentor roulette is there to fill queues, not to carry sprouts through content. The penalty currently in place is fine.

Its more of a learning experience for the players really. Mentors are just the ones who guide them there.

If they clear then thats great, but most of those attempts are fail groups that are really there for just practice. And the sad thing is if you run through the time and dont clear, it doesnt count towards your mentor roulette counter and ends up being a waste of time for the mentor.

Thats why when you see mentors getting placed in ex trials they often just leave because they know what they are in for.

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Originally Posted by Derio

If they clear then thats great, but most of those attempts are fail groups that are really there for just practice. And the sad thing is if you run through the time and dont clear, it doesnt count towards your mentor roulette counter and ends up being a waste of time for the mentor.

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I do wish they'd change that so that hitting the max time on a duty will still tick for the achiev. A lot of people will still quit because the penalty's shorter than the max timer, but a lot of people would still stay because a lot of us do want to help, we're just humanly selfish enough to not stick around if it's not worth our time. I feel like giving us that tick on the achiev would help everyone involved, since if we're already at the 1 hour mark on a Titan ex, then that means EVERYONE, mentors and sprouts and randoms, are actually invested enough and want to try and clear.

Entitled? .. nope.. not seeing it.

You queued in the mentor roulette. Why did you do that? Rewards! .. why should you have an exclusive roulette? Because you fulfilled all the reqs for the mentor title? Admirable sure, but that's not what the title is for.

Though, I think a fair compromise would be introducing "Mentor:Extreme Roulette", same reward and maybe have it count for +2 on the achievement list. At least then players can be prepared for the variable of having to do an Extreme since it can be a bit unfair that by being put into an Extreme there is a likelihood to not be given credit because of the potential difficulty compared to the random party you are put in.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Entitled? .. nope.. not seeing it.

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So did you latch onto the leg of the first adventurer you ran into in the game or did you actually try to play it yourself first? And what do you do when everyone in the party is new and there's no one there "to teach" you?

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...psowccx7dp.png

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You queued in the mentor roulette. Why did you do that? Rewards!

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Because why does anyone does anything in this game? I wonder if a single good soul who gets on Mentors' cases like this ever went "hm I'll queue for a bunch of random extreme trials as healer or tank, because someone might need help".

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.. why should you have an exclusive roulette?

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1. Good question, ask Yoshi-P that next time you see him, he and his might've been the ones to put it there in the first place. I could be wrong though.
2. Not all mentors have access to the roulette so the point is actually kind of redundant.
3. Because it is a unique roulette, meant to help duties that take long to pop, and might not even exist within other roulettes. The fact guildhests pop as often as they do mean that despite there being a roulette for that, that sort of content needs help too. As I said before, we're queue fodder, and SE is using us well since as it turns out half their roulettes are dead. Hi 50/60

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Because you fulfilled all the reqs for the mentor title?

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Because ON TOP OF THAT I have successfully cleared each and every duty in the roulette, which means I at least have them unlocked and might not be complete dead weight if I go in there (hence the problem with people who got their clear unsynced, but that leads us back to whether or not extreme trials should be in the roulette in the first place if that's what it takes for most people to clear it at all, something even Yoshi-P acknowledged when he encouraged people to try out HW extremes when SB came out).

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Admirable sure, but that's not what the title is for.

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And yet we're not discussing the title, we're discussing the roulette, which too many people take to be interchangable. And as for the roulette...

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...psoaumjezf.png

Source. Works as intended, God bless.