Samurai and Red Mage

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I'm afraid I don't fully understand your meaning here; could you elaborate a bit? From what I understand, you're saying something along the lines of Acceleration making Manafication's CD drop?

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Shes probably referring to Haste like support.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I'm afraid I don't fully understand your meaning here; could you elaborate a bit? From what I understand, you're saying something along the lines of Acceleration making Manafication's CD drop?

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I've nothing concrete yet. Essentially, though, I'm playing around with the idea of RDM being able to chip away at current recast times or reduce incoming recast times through a larger interaction with the idea of "Acceleration". This needn't remove the current ability, and may even play around with it, specifically, but it'd essentially be expanding on the existing theme. Everything else is variable at the moment, save that it'd have to find a way to be uncomplicated in itself and there'd have to be multiple wholly competitive options for how the mechanic is worked towards or spent; if Embolden or Manafication were the only worthwhile choices, the mechanic would fall flat and turn solely into a throughput increase that could be reached through less complicated means (and where simple does the same job, simpler is better). But, if "done right" (and, again, I've no idea how to do this at the moment), it could insert considerable flexibility into its means of personal dps OR raid support, and through varying means each.

It's probably something best left for 5.0 at the soonest, regardless; I'm just curious if the idea would even feel "RDM".

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Sounds like an interesting foundation to build on, I think. Sort of like how SCH shaves off its recast for Aetherflow when using stacks, or Infuriate's CD being shaved a bit by use of FC, IB, SC, or Decimate, but tooled around a DPS kit instead.

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Pretty much. I'd just like for it to be more than just a check that you will be under 50 Rage when 5n GCD resource spenders complete, or the like. Rather, I want it to make the RDM look very closely at what s/he's going to need when in order to provide the best possible support to his/her team, be that through direct damage or less direct utilities. Admittedly, in this sense, too, a slightly revised 5.0 ability line-up would give it a lot more to work with.

Sounds like an interesting foundation to build on, I think. Sort of like how SCH shaves off its recast for Aetherflow when using stacks, or Infuriate's CD being shaved a bit by use of FC, IB, SC, or Decimate, but tooled around a DPS kit instead.

It feels like the whole eyes open set of skills for SAM needs a rework... instead of burning through kenki on weak shields, heals and a sad excuse for a counter attack... I'd rather it be a buff with a 30 sec duration and 60 sec CD that when you take damage it makes your next shinten crit... like a real counter attack...

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Agreed. I use meditate every chance I get. I love nothing more than having a group on Rofacale that kills its Archdemon quickly. I can get a full Meditate charge in while he's just running around the board. I would even squeeze it in on D4 when Exdeath would leave the arena to summon the zombie tree. Even if it's just 15 Kenki, it's something. Hardly ever see anyone else use it, though. I'm actually trying to train myself to use Yaten more to avoid AoEs and use the enhanced Enpi to minimize down time.

As for RDM, I feel they dropped the ball with Impact. It should have been more than just a small Jolt buff.

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I'm never confident enough to use Meditate, and I pretty much never use it in dungeons. I honestly feel like I struggle as SAM to average the same damage as other DPS roles, and it seems like Meditate detracts from my up time too much. The only time I really do use it is during trials when there are situational mechanics that allow me to meditate during party-wide DPS down time. I too am also trying to train myself to use Yaten more for AOE dodging. Even though I've gotten my SAM to 70, I still feel as if I have quite a bit to learn.

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Originally Posted by WilhelmWhite

concerns about meditate useage.

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you should only use meditate when there is downtime... usually during a bosses or primals ultimate attack wind up when it's invulnerable/untargetable... I usually dump all my kenki right before a phase shift and use meditate during the downtime...

I'm quite interested in this. My mains are tank and healer so I really have a lot to learn about the different dps roles, but my SAM is level 70 with and average ilevel of 338. Kaiten + Setsugekka can hit for over 40k and I can use it roughly every 30 seconds or so. Is that really so bad compared to other dps roles?

My RDM is 64 right now and it too has some pretty powerful attacks. I have BRD and MNK at 60 and wasn't impressed with either, but that's about it for my experience with dps.

Am I just playing these wrong or is there something else I'm missing?

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Originally Posted by Relhon

I'm quite interested in this. My mains are tank and healer so I really have a lot to learn about the different dps roles, but my SAM is level 70 with and average ilevel of 338. Kaiten + Setsugekka can hit for over 40k and I can use it roughly every 30 seconds or so. Is that really so bad compared to other dps roles?

My RDM is 64 right now and it too has some pretty powerful attacks. I have BRD and MNK at 60 and wasn't impressed with either, but that's about it for my experience with dps.

Am I just playing these wrong or is there something else I'm missing?

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Dps is damage per second. Just because some of your attacks seem to be large as you use them, doesn't mean that your overall understanding of the class is that great. You need to sustain good numbers to have high dps.

Once had a sam in byakko ex who did a 50k midare and I almost died, my highest verholy being 39k ever. They still managed to be 3rd place in dps, behind myself on rdm and the bard. -rawrz

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Dps is damage per second. Just because some of your attacks seem to be large as you use them, doesn't mean that your overall understanding of the class is that great. You need to sustain good numbers to have high dps.

Once had a sam in byakko ex who did a 50k midare and I almost died, my highest verholy being 39k ever. They still managed to be 3rd place in dps, behind myself on rdm and the bard. -rawrz

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Ok, it makes sense putting it that way. So basically just because I have an attack that can be higher than anyone else my overall total damage is less.

I don't pretend to be an expert at dps, so I appreciate you explaining!

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Originally Posted by Relhon

Ok, it makes sense putting it that way. So basically just because I have an attack that can be higher than anyone else my overall total damage is less.

I don't pretend to be an expert at dps, so I appreciate you explaining!

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Your overall damage could be less. You have to keep up with as many aspects of the job as you can. SAM is top melee for personal greedy dps and contends with blm/smn for highest personal dps.

SAM potential is very high, but one high attack won't carry your dps if you can't sustain, say keeping up your dot in relevant situations for example.

So why all the hate on SAM if the potential is there? Are people just not playing it right or is it something else? A lot of things I've read about SAM say it's got incredible dps capability which is why I'm curious.

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Originally Posted by Relhon

So why all the hate on SAM if the potential is there? Are people just not playing it right or is it something else? A lot of things I've read about SAM say it's got incredible dps capability which is why I'm curious.

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Objectively speaking, it doesn't matter if you're #1 DPS if that's all you bring, and the #2 DPS is behind by 1% but brings other goodies.

You're still a !@#% job.

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Originally Posted by Relhon

So why all the hate on SAM if the potential is there? Are people just not playing it right or is it something else? A lot of things I've read about SAM say it's got incredible dps capability which is why I'm curious.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Objectively speaking, it doesn't matter if you're #1 DPS if that's all you bring, and the #2 DPS is behind by 1% but brings other goodies.

You're still a !@#% job.

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https://78.media.tumblr.com/66315098...rw9yq3_500.jpg

Without the honestly... combative language that Kabooa used, I'd like to draw attention to the potential issue of rDPS and pDPS, and why BLM is KIIIIINDA starting to improve in the right direction.

A major issue with the pure DPS jobs, is that compared to other jobs, their personalDPS is simply not equivalent to the raidDPS of most other DPSes.

http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encount...pjVCnkGBwKH/10

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. BLM's massive 7500~ pDPS in this party could not have been obtained on its own, and as a result, its actual rDPS contribution is much smaller than the other jobs. And mind you, this is a BLM at (as far as I'm aware) 100 percentile.

There will be a day that SE sees the issue and brings SAM and BLM up to speed but this might not be that day.

I didn't mean 'you' the person, but 'you' the theoretical collective.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I didn't mean 'you' the person, but 'you' the theoretical collective.

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Fair enough, but it was a rude way of putting it that can be seen as an attack. Don't wanna see people get their nappies in a bunch.

That BLM is still 300 dps higher than the next highest, in rDPS. I would say thats not at all smaller lol.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

That BLM is still 300 dps higher than the next highest, in rDPS. I would say thats not at all smaller lol.

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Again, this is a 100 percentile BLM vs a group of those who are all 80-99. with a wide range of values between them.

A better comparison is this one, with each of the players at the same level, though the BLM is a mere 2 percentile below. http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encount...pFqzgXxtJrb/13

BLM's performance is almost 800-1000 DPS below the other three DPS, raid performance wise, which really shows the bad spot BLM has. If playing at the same level, that contribution might RISE, but not by much.

300 DPS higher than everyone else who happens to be 3-19 percentiles lower than you is not at all impressive on the grand scale of things.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You left out the bit about the rest of the group being lower , but they are all 98-99% according to the log.

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That's fair, though which one are you talking about for the second one? The one that the first Heroku linked to was this one: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/7av1y...pe=damage-done and focussing on Perf%.

The second Heroku is this one: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/37dyk...pe=damage-done

But even the healers are pulling over 3k, this is not normal occurance.[/QUOTE]

Their performance being at 99% would prove you correct, though rDPS has more to do with contributions+DPS. Which is why pDPS isn't the best way of looking at viability because a job can be hitting hard but not contributing much.

How does an 80% across the board log look when adjusted?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure, Heroku only calculates rDPS from encounters.

I meant find an 80th percentile group and run it through the rDPS adjuster, I'm not really sure how to do that, I don't use fflogs much. But it doesn't matter in the end.


The biggest problem in the community, is that people want to see equal numbers on all jobs. Doesn't matter if they have utility or not. Remember on release when SAM was going to be super OP?

Now, to make SAM/BLM viable, they would have to do several thousand more pDPS than the other jobs. People would riot. rDPS only matters to people who think that way. most people in the game only care about their own DPS, and how other jobs boost that. That's why utility jobs are coveted, because they help everyone's numbers get bigger.

The only way to make it work would be say, top BLM/SAM's parsing 8-9k if not more, while the others are doing about 6. Not gonna happen, as we saw when they just listed potencies for SAM. While it would "balance" the jobs for DPS, it certainly would hurt peoples feelings having pDPS numbers with that big a discrepancy, which is when the complaining would start.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

you should only use meditate when there is downtime... usually during a bosses or primals ultimate attack wind up when it's invulnerable/untargetable... I usually dump all my kenki right before a phase shift and use meditate during the downtime...

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Exactly. It doesn't get used during normal fights, just parts where you can sneak it in. A good dungeon example is during the last boss of Temple of the First. After you collect the orbs, you can Meditate and get some Kenki while he's punching before using Third Eye on the last hit.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Without the honestly... combative language that Kabooa used, I'd like to draw attention to the potential issue of rDPS and pDPS, and why BLM is KIIIIINDA starting to improve in the right direction.

A major issue with the pure DPS jobs, is that compared to other jobs, their personalDPS is simply not equivalent to the raidDPS of most other DPSes.

http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encount...pjVCnkGBwKH/10

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. BLM's massive 7500~ pDPS in this party could not have been obtained on its own, and as a result, its actual rDPS contribution is much smaller than the other jobs. And mind you, this is a BLM at (as far as I'm aware) 100 percentile.

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Umm... what? 6546 is smaller than 6248, 6129, and 5497 now?
Even with every single bit of damage offered it from others taken back out, the BLM still contributed more DPS in total than any other job in there.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Again, this is a 100 percentile BLM vs a group of those who are all 80-99. with a wide range of values between them.

A better comparison is this one, with each of the players at the same level, though the BLM is a mere 2 percentile below. http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encount...pFqzgXxtJrb/13[/B]

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A "mere" 2%? That means absolutely nothing.

98% is not 98% of the lead parse. It is simply ahead of 98% of parses published within that job.

Just consider, if all but one player of a given class were !@#$, then the difference between 100% and 99% in that class could be 6k.

The surrounding players in the lead parse literally have no means of providing extra DPS to the BLM at so great a cost to their own that this could have been a conscious sacrifice of their percentiles, to a detriment in rDPS in order to pad the BLM's through the way the fight was executed. None of the buffs' durations involved pan out advantageously enough, or at enough cost to the activator, to do that. Save for perhaps the faintest portion, the 1st BLM just knew his stuff that much better atop probably never getting picked for the quake-chase mechanic (or else having the boss set such that he could TC, BtL, and AM through each).

The first group has an especially skilled BLM compared to the other players in that party and played around it knowing that had the BLM instead gone with something interdependent -- even if just as skilled in the other class -- their rDPS would have suffered for it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Umm... what? 6546 is smaller than 6248, 6129, and 5497 now?
Even with every single bit of damage offered it from others taken back out, the BLM still contributed more DPS in total than any other job in there.

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The other person then said 300 wasn't enough since the blm was 100th % while some of the other dps were 81-90.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The surrounding players in the lead parse literally have no means of providing extra DPS to the BLM at so great a cost of their own. None of the buffs' durations involved pan out advantageously enough, or at enough cost to the activator, to do that. Save for perhaps the faintest portion, the 1st BLM just knew his stuff that much better atop probably never getting picked for the quake-chase mechanic (or else having the boss set such that he could TC, BtL, and AM through each)..

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The 7500 Black Mage was fed every single target buff. The difference in their activity is .2%. The Black Mage at 6300 used scathe exactly once, so something forced disadvantageous movement, and possibly cost a AF phase. I don't really want to go that deep into the analysis. The most absurd difference is that 7500 Mage got 15 additional Fire 4s off, part of being that the 7500 Black mage is in a longer encounter (by about 20 seconds, so one rotation or 5-6 Fire 4s), so in the same duration, they got 9-10 more Fire 4s, on average hitting harder, than the other Black Mage.

7500: Total GCDs - 200
Other: Total GCDs - 179

Adjusting for the 21 second difference (Which could be a full fire phase so 7 GCDs): Approximately 193 GCDs vs 179. It's almost like they had a constant +10-15% spellspeed from single target Arrows. The damage difference could be gear, but given that 7500 got Dragon Eye, I'm going to go ahead and say the difference is probably being fed yet more single target buffs.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The 7500 Black Mage was fed every single target buff. The difference in their activity is .2%. The Black Mage at 6300 used scathe exactly once, so something forced disadvantageous movement, and possibly cost a AF phase. I don't really want to go that deep into the analysis. The most absurd difference is that 7500 Mage got 15 additional Fire 4s off, part of being that the 7500 Black mage is in a longer encounter (by about 20 seconds, so one rotation or 5-6 Fire 4s), so in the same duration, they got 9-10 more Fire 4s, on average hitting harder, than the other Black Mage.

7500: Total GCDs - 200
Other: Total GCDs - 179

Adjusting for the 21 second difference (Which could be a full fire phase so 7 GCDs): Approximately 193 GCDs vs 179. It's almost like they had a constant +10-15% spellspeed from single target Arrows. The damage difference could be gear, but given that 7500 got Dragon Eye, I'm going to go ahead and say the difference is probably being fed yet more single target buffs.

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But let's consider also: +10% Attack Speed onto a 6900 parse for 30s takes 1 Card to accomplish and accomplishes ~690 DPS (more if allowing for a Fire-less string through Transpose rotation every other burn); +5% raid-wide Attack Speed (38,516) consumes 2 Cards and where only a couple classes can make that attack speed act nearly as strongly as a damage bonus. That's still more than a double benefit, but at twice the card price that benefit shrinks rapidly.

Yes, the 7500 is padded towards the BLM. But there's no way by the cards alone would likely force the others back that far in DPS, and that's the only resource for which any real choice was available. This could somehow be a cheeky run where only the BLM parse was especially of import (rather than the Dragoon DYING, and gradual chain reactions that pulled others down to a miserable 96th and 91st percentile as well), and that lead could have shrunk or even fallen slightly behind a different first place otherwise, but it'd still be a strongly, strongly viable choice in the right hands even if not fed.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

As I said, there's a fair amount of this I just don't want to bother going further into. The 7400 is not just padded, but padded heavily. Very heavily. It is something to look at for fun, but doesn't at all reflect the strength of the job, because every ounce of that came at a cost. It is certainly primarily for the Black Mage to hit that stupid number. That's part of the fun of the content after you clear and farm gear. To do stupid stuff like that (Like the 8 warrior Ravana at 60 party)

But from an objective standpoint it's terrible practice, because you're going to get more damage by removing the Black Mage, replacing it with anything else of a similar player caliber (Except maybe Red Mage), and proceed to uberbuff everyone in the raid, not just one person, and that is why the Selfish DPS paradigm currently is awful, and so far SE's only answer is to constantly raise the floor so that the average Black Mage looks better in comparison to the average anything else.

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7400? Weren't we talking about the Alsa Rien 7500 BLM parse? The only one below a 91st percentile is the DRG who spent 20 seconds DEAD. The other you brought in for discussion as a counterpoint.

The padding may be bad practice, but that's a fault of, as you said, going for a personal DPS parse, not with BLM itself. And it's a far call from being worthless even then. It's only 40 seconds off from the speed record, made weeks later. And note: that one doesn't have deaths.

Heck, the 2nd biggest padded parse (Ynd Tmb's 7569 on Monk) is also only 9 seconds away from the speed record for its fight (a mere 1.6% slower).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But let's consider also:.

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As I said, there's a fair amount of this I just don't want to bother going further into. The 7400 is not just padded, but padded heavily. Very heavily. It is something to look at for fun, but doesn't at all reflect the strength of the job, because every ounce of that came at a cost. It is certainly primarily for the Black Mage to hit that stupid number. That's part of the fun of the content after you clear and farm gear. To do stupid stuff like that (Like the 8 warrior Ravana at 60 party)

But from an objective standpoint it's terrible practice, because you're going to get more damage by removing the Black Mage, replacing it with anything else of a similar player caliber (Except maybe Red Mage), and proceed to uberbuff everyone in the raid, not just one person, and that is why the Selfish DPS paradigm currently is awful, and so far SE's only answer is to constantly raise the floor so that the average Black Mage looks better in comparison to the average anything else.

We all agree enough "utility" makes up for pDPS with rDPS, but the argument now is if BLM is given enough pDPS to make up for it, to which its arguably close, to the point that almost no group would turn down a BLM.
So honestly, imo, they did good with BLM, but increasing SAMs DPS is actually as much an rDPS loss as it is a pDPS increase, with tanks needing to use more threat to keep up with its pDPS increase.
Back at the release of the current savage, our WAR did 4k DPS, with a PLD doing 3k DPS, voke shirking the WAR. The SAM was doing 5.2k (wasnt fully geared yet) and the WAR always lost hate to him at some point when a tank buster went out. Be it early or later. The SAM was using diversion the moment it was up, so the issue lies in that SAM currently just cant do much more DPS w/o a NIN to help with threat. SAM needs a threat dump, or another tank needs a way to lower PT members threat (Personally i say give it to DRK)

a SAM cant be doing 7k DPS w/o tanking. even with voke/shirk combos, and diversion on CD. (need a NIN as a requirement, only hurting the problem more)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Heck, the 2nd biggest padded parse (Ynd Tmb's 7569 on Monk) is also only 9 seconds away from the speed record for its fight (a mere 1.6% slower).

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And the Monk brings Mantra and Brotherhood. Certainly not a raid supporter, but that's more than a black mage, and to be honest, it's not even that stacked for the Monk. A healthier amount of AoE cards went out here, and though they got fed some single cards, it isn't nearly as dumb as it is over in the Black mage.

Honestly, it's even looking like the only single card they got were Spears and potentially a balance or two.

So the Monk, a DPS class bringing both unique attack and defense boosts, with less catering to it, is not only keeping up with the Black Mage, but one that was heavily fed single cards.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

We all agree enough "utility" makes up for pDPS with rDPS, but the argument now is if BLM is given enough pDPS to make up for it, to which its arguably close, to the point that almost no group would turn down a BLM.
So honestly, imo, they did good with BLM, but increasing SAMs DPS is actually as much an rDPS loss as it is a pDPS increase, with tanks needing to use more threat to keep up with its pDPS increase.
Back at the release of the current savage, our WAR did 4k DPS, with a PLD doing 3k DPS, voke shirking the WAR. The SAM was doing 5.2k (wasnt fully geared yet) and the WAR always lost hate to him at some point when a tank buster went out. Be it early or later. The SAM was using diversion the moment it was up, so the issue lies in that SAM currently just cant do much more DPS w/o a NIN to help with threat. SAM needs a threat dump, or another tank needs a way to lower PT members threat (Personally i say give it to DRK)

a SAM cant be doing 7k DPS w/o tanking. even with voke/shirk combos, and diversion on CD. (need a NIN as a requirement, only hurting the problem more)

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This is indeed a core Monk/Samurai issue at the moment, as they alone lack a second enmity tool, be it the purges of Elusive or Lucid or the (effectively) 200% enmity reduction of Shadewalker. The question is whether, if MCH, SAM, and RDM were brought up to comparable levels and MCH, if NIN -- having no more or less rDPS than the others and lacking Verraise, Refresh, Palisade, and Tactician -- would still really have a spot well available (not guaranteed, but merely available) to it.

A Ranged doesn't quite require a Dragoon. Thus I would hope that a Monk or Samurai would not need a Ninja to be played to an acceptable potential. However, if, say, each had DPS-sacrificing tools that could be rDPS equal in the long run, which NIN could remove from necessity and therefore granting them the rDPS gap as if free, that seems like an interesting mechanical match-up.

For example, let's say Purification was buffed.
Purification - 1-minute cooldown. Restores 20% of HP and TP while reducing a significant amount of enmity.

This actual amount would be equal to "3000 raw potency" (non-buffable by mitigation tools), in exchange for dealing 250 buffable potency (essentially up to 440 potency). Assuming that a Monk's time or potency gaps, say, 50% more useful or significant than a tank's, this would still eventually amount to a rDPS increase.

But that also means that over a given fight, a Ninja could afford the Monk 390n to 440n more potency.

There's nothing quite so obviously applicable for Samurai at the moment, but imagine something to similar effect for it. Or, alternatively, play upon that selfish DPS aspect as its enmity generation. Cause Yaten to distribute a portion of Samurai's enmity against the target based all other percentile contributors. If the (former) MT holds 40% of the remainder of all enmity against the target, then he gets 40% of Samurai's 20% as distributed by Yaten. A Ninja would further pronounce those benefits, but they'd still be sufficient without him.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

And the Monk brings Mantra and Brotherhood. Certainly not a raid supporter, but that's more than a black mage, and to be honest, it's not even that stacked for the Monk. A healthier amount of AoE cards went out here, and though they got fed some single cards, it isn't nearly as dumb as it is over in the Black mage.

Honestly, it's even looking like the only single card they got were Spears and potentially a balance or two.

So the Monk, a DPS class bringing both unique attack and defense boosts, with less catering to it, is not only keeping up with the Black Mage, but one that was heavily fed single cards.

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Right. Which is why I, even though maining Monk/Samurai (well, solely Monk at this point, as its damage is higher even for me and with Brotherhood atop that), am under the impression that certain Monk builds (and therefore the class's potential as a whole) may be unintendedly (overly) powerful, and have suggested the removal of the Brotherhood damage buff to Monk itself, though in exchange for broader applicability across compositions of Chakra generation. I just still need to work out the potential gains in TFC casts by removing its cooldown vs. the 5% on all oGCD skills including the (fewer) TFC casts currently possible. Heck, if I use the above Purification idea, I wouldn't really even need to do that, so long as I reduce Purification to a similar CD. TP would wholly stop being a thing for Monk, but that was practically the case anyways.

i still personally think slashing/piercing/blunt should just be taken out of the game like element resistance. would help against the whole meta thing slightly because it really doesn't add anything besides people picking and choosing for synergy in that way. Get rid of that, and they will have to buff some classes in 5.0.

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Originally Posted by Dralonis

i still personally think slashing/piercing/blunt should just be taken out of the game like element resistance. would help against the whole meta thing slightly because it really doesn't add anything besides people picking and choosing for synergy in that way. Get rid of that, and they will have to buff some classes in 5.0.

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I wouldn't be surprised if only the potential redundancies (e.g. Slashing, and Piercing only if there are equally plentiful other sources and users) are left, going into 5.0 or 6.0. But, I'd wager that one could find a way to balance around it. The issue is that at least one readily available alternative to the given damage advantage (as per Piercing onto a Ranged) also has to give damage, since only damage will be universally useful; all else is a capped utility -- their equivalence to actual throughput depends on very specific interactions or on the power of one's enemies, which will not scale with gear, invaluable for particular benchmarks afforded them, but not at all as soon as that benchmark has been met.

It'd be like being able to take 6% Piercing as applicable to Ranged, but only if at cost to the 5% that the Ranged can give to casters, specifically, which was in turn afforded by something else.

in most normal comps, blm are ok dps-wise, .. but ofc still too low compared to most dps and their dps raid buffs..

while in most standard comps sam is still just as good as blm (sam will eat the drg dragon sight or profit from mnks brotherhood... or embolden)

still, blm and sam need a (slight) buff.., smn and mnk are both OP, especially mnk atm

my opionions:

give blm a slight magic vun buff on target of 3-5%


increase sams slashing by +3(-5)

increase embolden by a tick, but make it magic vun too (there are less magic vun buffs)

For Red Mage, I believe boosting the potency for it's Verspells by 10 would perhaps boost its DPS a bit further.

Jolt II >> Impact (Have it automatically change)

Remove Acceleration and have it as a trait? Perhaps initial Trait = 10% increase, the following be an additional 2%?

Remove Tether!

From the removal of the buttons (Tether /Impact / Acceleration) add Verwater / Verblizzard as AoE rotation with Scatter [Enhanced Scatter Triggers Verblizzard / Verwater]

Emboldment > Increase duration, decrease the potency, and leave it as a percentage instead.

Add an AoE Refresh move for party members / Add Enfire (Increases Direct Hit for all party members) Enstone (Increases defense for party members within range)

Enfire consumes 60 Black Meter / Enstone consumes 60 White meter...

This is my dream, sadly, it's outrageous... but I enjoy being a dreamer lol

Still begging for buffs eh, what happens when you yell into a forest when you are alone ? that's what this is.

Sam could use a little nudge, rdm is fine being 13 dps behind nin.

Begging for buffs is what lead to sams current position, they buffed the other classes instead and now you rot while being excluded..

Where do you get that Red Mage is 13 dps behind Ninja? Of course a smn main would say Red Mage is fine.. lol

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Still begging for buffs eh, what happens when you yell into a forest when you are alone ? that's what this is.

Sam could use a little nudge, rdm is fine being 13 dps behind nin.

Begging for buffs is what lead to sams current position, they buffed the other classes instead and now you rot while being excluded..

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The bulk of those buffs were generated by basic and necessary functionality fixes that were condemning classes' viability to crippled mush based on a single ill-time death. This is scarcely a "haha, serves you right for playing and carrying about (the toolkit integrity of) something other than your main ( -- Now go despair in the isolation caused by your conscience! -- )" moment...

And what is your source for this "13 dps behind NIN"? Also, even were that the case, it would not be remotely fine, given how much more rDPS NIN is contributing at present.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Where do you get that Red Mage is 13 dps behind Ninja? Of course a smn main would say Red Mage is fine.. lol

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Also the fact that NIN's are in a much better spot for clearing with their better utility. RDM's are only really good in those groups that die a lot when working on progression and to hit enrage lol. For me, It's pretty much become RDM until the fight is more or less learned/hitting enrage, then switch to SMN and try for a clear. Luckily, the gear is the same, But I'd much prefer to just do the content on my RDM since I love RDM by far. Main reason why I think people like to hate on RDMs and dont want them to get a buff is because it's popular, people like the non overly complexity of the class like SMN's opener or SAM, they like the style, and there's just too many people playing it. Idk why, but since tons of people play it + easy and fun class = it's ok for their DPS to be low. that's probably why they kept buffing MCH. Hardly anyone wants to play it. I love MCH look but I hate it's rotation and playstyle. I'd rather play BRD.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And what is your source for this "13 dps behind NIN"? Also, even were that the case, it would not be remotely fine, given how much more rDPS NIN is contributing at present.

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Do you have access to google or any form of parsing utility ? I don't get paid enough to spoon feed data.

Sure nin provides more raid damage but that's all it does, rdm, especially in open world content is unstoppable, yes I am a smn main and I mess around with my rdm who shares my high crit/dhit gear, and in dungeons I literally eat mechanics because I can just heal myself,, can nin do that? no they can't.

Now with eureka coming out and some people want to solo, do u think nin is going to do well face tanking high elemental leveled mobs compared to the solo god rdm ? no they won't.

Not every job in the game needs "raids dps utility" I'd rather never die and collect my loot...

This whole "nin is mai god cuz he buff moi" bs needs to stop, it's a boring class with 1 useful ability in raiding which hardly anyone even does...

Now if you want to dispute things further make damn well sure it's worth my time to respond.

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Originally Posted by Dralonis

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I totally agree with you and have said before simplicity of a job should not determine whether or not a job gets buffs and such..

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Do you have access to google or any form of parsing utility ? I don't get paid enough to spoon feed data.

Sure nin provides more raid damage but that's all it does, rdm, especially in open world content is unstoppable, yes I am a smn main and I mess around with my rdm who shares my high crit/dhit gear, and in dungeons I literally eat mechanics because I can just heal myself,, can nin do that? no they can't.

Now with eureka coming out and some people want to solo, do u think nin is going to do well face tanking high elemental leveled mobs compared to the solo god rdm ? no they won't.

Not every job in the game needs "raids dps utility" I'd rather never die and collect my loot...

This whole "nin is mai god cuz he buff moi" bs needs to stop, it's a boring class with 1 useful ability in raiding which hardly anyone even does...

Now if you want to dispute things further make damn well sure it's worth my time to respond.

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My god. There's so much wrong with this... Where do I even start? On using Vercure on yourself when you can just avoid AoEs? On measuring job viability by open-world / solo content?

If you hardly do raiding, why debate RDM viability therein? Or anything's? Push for Summoner open-world fun and tricks if you like, but to suggest that RDM is in no need of buffs as it applies to end-level content -- where those differences really are noticeable -- because they have plentiful open-world utility should be ridiculous to you as well.

rDPS is literally the only universal measure of value. The goal of every single ability in this game, whether through survival or restoration or resource growth or mobility or CC or empowerment, is rDPS.

Worry not; I've said as much as I have for purposes more alike to dealing with and abandoning a painful memory, and have no intention of "debating" further.

No point in trying to make a point Shurrikhan, Adventica clearly does not understand how the jobs work