Warriors need MORE damage

WAR is already the strongest right now in terms of cheese factor. And still has the best OGCDs. PLD was already nerfed. If anything they need to focus on fixing DRK, not buffing WAR when WAR already sits at the top for damage.

Although I haven't capped it yet (lvl 68 on WAR) I would say WAR is in a good spot right now. PLD is solid but I'm not a big fan of its gameplay. DRK definitely needs some love right now. DPS could use a small boost and We're defintely lacking mitigation tools, especially pre-70. TBN is a poor replacement in that regard seeing as we don't even get it till we cap.

If someone needs a dps buff it's blm

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

Warrior damage is base off off rng https://www.mooglemedia.com/releasin...w-xenosys-vex/ this interview frim xenosys-vex explains why

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No more so than any other job...

Less, so, even, than Bard or Monk.

Yes, a disproportionately large part of Warrior damage is dealt within a small portion of gameplay, which means fewer sample strikes, but it's no more dependent on critical strikes or direct hits than anyone else -- less, even, than any job that specifically has on-crit mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

If someone needs a dps buff it's blm

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That wont change the fact that people don't want it because it does not provide the other classes with something.

Samurai is in exactly the same situation (maybe worse because it only has Diversion for emnity control and slashing is also obtained from NIN)

Its not so much about the personal DPS not making up for the lack of party utility its that everyone just wants to benefit from something the others bring.

TLDR; increasing personal DPS wont remove the stigma towards it but instead the other classes will just complain they don't get the same numbers.

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Originally Posted by Derio

WAR is already the strongest right now in terms of cheese factor. And still has the best OGCDs. PLD was already nerfed. If anything they need to focus on fixing DRK, not buffing WAR when WAR already sits at the top for damage.

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What exactly do you mean by best OGCDs? War has literally 2 OGCDs attacks. The community seems to believe onslaught is mediocre at best leaving the uppercut of doom. Compared to req, spirits, shield swipe + scorn?

Wut?

I don't follow.

Why do people keep comparing war to pld? Does war need a dps buff when compared to drk? I thought the class with the least utility should do the most damage.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

Why do people keep comparing war to pld? Does war need a dps buff when compared to drk? I thought the class with the least utility should do the most damage.

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offensive or defensive utility?
Let's address that before we go down that rabbit hole.

Deliverance will go from 5% damage increase to 25% later on... it's going to happen regardless people joke about it or not...

Go back to HW OP. Let the rest of us play SB.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Deliverance will go from 5% damage increase to 25% later on... it's going to happen regardless people joke about it or not...

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Yeah but then Storms Eye will instead generate 30 Gauge.

Warriors need more damage? Do you even play warrior? It has the best damage out of the all of the tanks as it is. Why give them an even bigger boost?

if pld gave all our utility to war and in return was given dps buff a 3 minute HG and a 2 minute sentinal they would still complain that there in a bad spot and that pld are too good. Im saying this because War DOES HAVE highest dps and fastest mitigation making them the best tank in the game. Pld utility is nice but not needed

No need for more Warrior damage. But please make Unchained have a separate cooldown than Inner Release please please. That's the only "extra damage" I think Warriors should get.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

No need for more Warrior damage. But please make Unchained have a separate cooldown than Inner Release please please. That's the only "extra damage" I think Warriors should get.

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Would kind of defeat the point of minding them together, and, much more importantly, would make Warrior the go-to puller/MT.

Personally, I'd be fine with just seeing (1) Defiance also affect healing received from Abilities (that rather huge portion of healing actually done, especially when it really matters), and (2) Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone damage increased by 33%, but made no longer immune to Defiance's damage reduction, thus making Unchained more significant and usable.

If you wanted to take it a bit further, you'd need only increase the damage penalty on Defiance by 4% and remove the damage bonus on Deliverance, in turn increasing all Warrior skill potencies by ~5%, thus causing Unchained to give a 6.5% damage boost over its duration (over a 40% boost compared to now on IB/SC damage).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Would kind of defeat the point of minding them together, and, much more importantly, would make Warrior the go-to puller/MT.

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Warrior is already the go-to puller?

I don't think separating their CD would make that much difference in the big scheme. You aren't going to open with berserk+unchained since you'd need to keep Berserk+IR timers lined up, and it'd still be better to be in deliverance with the +5%. So, the optimal opener would probably stay the same, it would only affect casuals like me that wait until SE or BB to switch to deliverance.

But, I personally still use unchained plenty in dungeons, you can use it once in a big pull and then it's back up for bosses so IMO it's not that big of a deal even as it is.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yeah but then Storms Eye will instead generate 30 Gauge.

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I actually think Storm's Path will get Fracture DoT effect/potency and each DoT tick generates 5 gauge... which would make DRK even LESS desirable and WAR even MORE desirable...

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

No need for more Warrior damage. But please make Unchained have a separate cooldown than Inner Release please please. That's the only "extra damage" I think Warriors should get.

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Better yet have Unchained be a trait for Defiance and Inner beast also increases DPS by 20% for 20 seconds but is inflicted with pacification if it falls off(can be esuna'd)...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I actually think Storm's Path will get Fracture DoT effect/potency and each DoT tick generates 5 gauge..

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This would be great.

Why are we even taking about warrior right now both war and pld are balance the only tank who isn't balance is dark knight which has less utility in terms should be doing more I do agree warrior needs something but right now dark is not balanced

Next we will have threads on RDM, BLM, SAM, MNK wanting more dps/dmg.....oh wait, nvm.

I know this is bait but

I would've agreed with this entirely until the Shake it Off change, but Divine Veil is ultimately the most important piece of utility that Paladin has and now Warriors have an explicitly better version of it. There's absolutely no reason for them to do a significant amount more damage than Paladin now, if at all, outside of class flavor.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

No more so than any other job...

Less, so, even, than Bard or Monk.

Yes, a disproportionately large part of Warrior damage is dealt within a small portion of gameplay, which means fewer sample strikes, but it's no more dependent on critical strikes or direct hits than anyone else -- less, even, than any job that specifically has on-crit mechanics.

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That's not how RNG works. I see this train of thought often but it's simply not true.

RNG is "random," sure, but it still trends towards a more consistent value over time. Less sample strikes means there's less time for the RNG to equalize. RNG ultimately has more of a detrimental effect on Warrior than anything else because of this fact, because it's the only job in the game that does so much of its damage in such a small number of casts. It's actually incredibly unlikely for RNG to be truly detrimental on any of the supposed "RNG-heavy" jobs with crit mechanics, because those jobs both have a rather large casts-per-minute number.

This is a pretty big design flaw on Warrior's end imo but I can't think of any fixes off the top of my head that would actually be fun.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I would've agreed with this entirely until the Shake it Off change, but Divine Veil is ultimately the most important piece of utility that Paladin has and now Warriors have an explicitly better version of it.

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Shake it Off is weaker than Divine Veil but with a shorter cooldown. PLD still has Passage of Arms on top of that for more frequent raidwide mitigation (rotating the shield and 15% mitigation every minute if you really want to), along with Clemency, Cover and Intervention. PLD is way better off in utility and still does nearly identical DPS to WAR.

Yeah, Shake It Off alone doesn't match up to the utility of Paladin.

Especially since to match the strength of Divine Veil alone requires sacrificing a cooldown. Not always a good idea.

I'm really struggling to see what utility you're talking about here. Do you just want a Passage of Arms clone? There are so many other places where WAR surpasses PLD in utility, such as mobility and knockback negation, and raid damage utility in the slashing debuff. Also, why compare just PLD and WAR? If utility should come at the cost of dps, then WAR should be behind both DRK and PLD in dps. Versatility is enough of a strength on its own.

It's odd that anyone would try to argue that SiO is weaker than DV. SiO doesn't require a proc. It applies to yourself. It has a 25% shorter recast. In magic heavy fights, you can consistently burn RI on it so that it is always more powerful than DV. It can take advantage of WAR's unique HP advantages from both Defiance and ToB. And if you really, really want to, you can make it more powerful than a Tank Limit Break 1.

To be honest, if you're finding that you're being outperformed on dps by your co-tank while playing WAR, it's entirely on you. As it was in Heavensward.

While I do agree that Xeno does have a valid concern in the interview, Square should first push DRK a bit. Objectively, that job currently needs some buffs and adjustments more than WAR or PLD at this point.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There are so many other places where WAR surpasses PLD in utility, such as mobility and knockback negation, and raid damage utility in the slashing debuff.

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Onslaught's mobility isn't utility, it doesn't help the group. It slightly increases your own DPS and that's it. Slashing debuff is also provided by SAM and NIN, most groups will have one of those.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Also, why compare just PLD and WAR?

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Because WAR is worse than PLD overall, why should DRK come into the discussion at all?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's odd that anyone would try to argue that SiO is weaker than DV. SiO doesn't require a proc. It applies to yourself. It has a 25% shorter recast. In magic heavy fights, you can consistently burn RI on it so that it is always more powerful than DV. It can take advantage of WAR's unique HP advantages from both Defiance and ToB. And if you really, really want to, you can make it more powerful than a Tank Limit Break 1.

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It's a weaker shield unless you consume 2 cooldowns which means you're losing out on personal mitigation. Raidwide mitigation doesn't need to apply to the tank because we already have 10k+ HP over melee DPS. Not every fight is magic heavy. Divine Veil isn't PLD's only raidwide mitigation skill so Shake it Off is still available less often than DV/PoA.

You've also completely ignored Clemency, Cover and Intervention. Clemency is a heal as strong as Equilibrium that works on other people up to 5 casts in a row. Sure, you don't want to use it when you know a fight but it's great in progression. Cover's buff to work on all damage types and reduce damage makes it great for a lot of things, like straight mitigation, avoiding tank swaps, or fixing aggro problems during things like Aero III/Almagest. Intervention is a lot of free mitigation even when the PLD isn't tanking, especially if the other tank is a DRK to combine Sheltron/Intervention + TBN for a ton of free mitigation on every tankbuster.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

To be honest, if you're finding that you're being outperformed on dps by your co-tank while playing WAR, it's entirely on you. As it was in Heavensward.

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I don't play WAR anymore because it doesn't offer much. There's no reason for me to raid as WAR instead of PLD. Only buffing DRK isn't going to make WAR+DRK a great combo, it's just going to keep PLD as the tank with the guaranteed slot while WAR and DRK fight over the second slot.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Yeah, Shake It Off alone doesn't match up to the utility of Paladin.

Especially since to match the strength of Divine Veil alone requires sacrificing a cooldown. Not always a good idea.

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I'm not going to get into another argument over what counts as utility and what utility actually matters balance-wise but I feel the need to address this in particular.

1. Warrior literally has too many cooldowns to use all of them in any fight this tier (except maybe Unending, which I haven't done).
2. In a lot of fights this tier, raidwides either happen shortly after a tank buster (Dimensional Wave), sufficiently far away from one that it doesn't really matter that much (Almagest, barring the very first one), or the tank busters in question are magical, meaning you could burn at least Raw Intuition at no real cost or risk (Twin Bolts, Aero III, and whatever it is that O2S uses).
3. It has the potential to even be vastly stronger than DV, although the opportunity cost isn't exactly worth it.

In practice, it's usually always as strong as or stronger than Divine Veil, and there's no risk associated with just straight up burning a CD.

run DRK for awhile. Then when you play WAR you wont complain as much.

hahah they say WAR is worse and dont offer much that a paladin, thats a good one, o wait.... they are being serious.

WAR is in a good spot now, best damage, best defensive set, and a new shinny shield that can be use to have a new personal magic shield or to help the party every 90 seconds, hey they have to sacrifice one CD to make it better that DV, pse speak the job with most defensive skills with shorter recast.

i have a question, how you feel being a human again fallen op god?.

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Originally Posted by shao32

hahah they say WAR is worse and dont offer much that a paladin, thats a good one, o wait.... they are being serious.

WAR is in a good spot now, best damage, best defensive set, and a new shinny shield that can be use to have a new personal magic shield or to help the party every 90 seconds, hey they have to sacrifice one CD to make it better that DV, pse speak the job with most defensive skills with shorter recast.

i have a question, how you feel being a human again fallen op god?.

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yep they are being serious, they will keep moaning until war is back to its "op/playable" status that was 3.0, until then... what is "changing stance will not halves your beast gauge", what is Shake it Off rework for utility? they are nothing, i want muh damageee! moree damage plz.

while DRKs legit complaints are still fallen to deaf ears.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's odd that anyone would try to argue that SiO is weaker than DV.

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It is weaker because DV gives a shield to each party member based on the Paladin's HP but SiO is per person HP based, which is a significant difference depending on buffs spent.

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Originally Posted by QuinRaines

It is weaker because DV gives a shield to each party member based on the Paladin's HP but SiO is per person HP based, which is a significant difference depending on buffs spent.

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Lyth already mentioned that SiO CD is shorter than DV, and it benefits from RawI, ToB, Vengeance and even Inner Beast - but you wouldn't see the last one that much.

So, to compare the power of SiO vs. DV, there are 2 very critical factors to look at:
1. Recast time and trigger time
2. Shield amount

1. Pretty simple: 90s vs 120s recast, instant vs 30 duration, triggered by GCD heal (DV can't be triggered by Tetragrammaton and such)

2. We need an example: PLD has ~60k HP, lowest HP pool in party is 1 healer with ~35k.
Note: This scenario actually favors PLD here because in most cases PLD's HP pool isn't that high, nor is a healer's HP that low.
DV will give 6k HP shield to each party member except the PLD.
SiO without any additional CD will give on healer: 2.8k HP shield
SiO with RawI: 4.2k (90 sec CD)
SiO with ToB, Vengeance AND RawI: 7k (120 sec CD cause of ToB and Vengeance recast time)

We've a '2.8k or 4.2k shield on lowest HP target every 90 sec'
OR '7k shield on lowest HP target - for the cost of 3 additional CDs'
vs '6k shield on target ex. PLD, and just after a used GCD heal'.

Imo I prefer SiO esp. for burst phases. Not only it has higher shield value, also it doesn't require a heal. Even with 2 CDs (e.g. ToB + Vengeance) SiO creates a 5.6k on our example healer. Best scenario is O3s right before spellblade holy.

Then again DV is more favored during down time, the reason for this is self-explanatory.

Conclusion: Neither is really 'the best' ability, it's the skill/timing and coordination of the party/tank that makes those abilites strong.

DV is the skill that defines PLD's identity....benefits only the party not himself. Sucks in 3.0 and good now for whatever reasons.

I tend to consider DV as a barrier and SIO as more muscle with the party......both are not strictly needed but I feel safer using them.....

And if SE can rework a skill in middle of patches, why not give Drk a similar but identifiable utilitie? Like spend all remaining mp ( minimum mp required ) to extend TBN to all party: pain and suffering to protect others....

DV never sucked in 3.x, pld just sucked compared to drk.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

DV is the skill that defines PLD's identity....benefits only the party not himself. Sucks in 3.0 and good now for whatever reasons.

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the reason is WAR lost it's combo to place a debuff on the enemy wich reduces all damage by 10% and DRK lost it's combo to place a debuff on the enemy wich reduces INT by 10% (and raid wide damage is mostly magic based and never strenght based). those debuffs with their near 100% possible uptime were simply better than DV. so DV sucked (in comparsion).

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

Warrior damage is base off off rng https://www.mooglemedia.com/releasin...w-xenosys-vex/ this interview frim xenosys-vex explains why

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I disagree with his opinion on the other tanks, but about WAR he's actually making a lot of sense.

Wars don't need more damage, the other tanks need their damage increased to be on par with the crit damage the War can put out. My PLD is only 3ilvls higher than my War only because the War has Al-M weapon and PLD has plain Lost Al sword-shield. On a 69-70 mob with the slashing debuff berserk and stormseye up and doing a fel cleave it can reach 14k-18k per use. Now that being said I can barely reach 7k-10k with fight or flight+Royal Authority. Now to me if Spirits Within is "suppose" to be based on actual maximum HP instead of just a potency rating with 55k HP it should be critting well over 20k.

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Originally Posted by Niurok

Wars don't need more damage, the other tanks need their damage increased [...] fel cleave [...] can reach 14k-18k per use [...] I can barely reach 7k-10k with fight or flight+Royal Authority. Now to me if Spirits Within is "suppose" to be based on actual maximum HP instead of just a potency rating with 55k HP it should be critting well over 20k.

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Firstly, PLD can very much compete with WAR DMG, especially when slip ups happen. PLD recovers a lot easier than WAR. But seeing how we must assume a vacuum to compare them I'll give you that WAR has the potential to do more DMG than PLD, given that the FCs crit.

Secondly, RA is a combo ender. It is not based on a gauge or anything of the sort like FC is. Why would it ever hit as hard as FC or even close to it?

Thirdly, why should SW hit for more than FC? Strictly going by potency, SW is 300 potency, FC is 500 potency. SW has the potential to do less DMG if you're not full health, but the max potency is 300.

PLD is in a great spot, has great utility and stupid DMG for the amount of utility it has.

War does ENOUGH damage. IF you want to change war, change the distribution of damage, not the quantity so your fight performance isn't based on 20 sec windows Crit/DR RNG. Otherwise leave it alone. Its fine.