World First tank line up confirmed

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

WF is proof that Renard is an outstanding player and tank, not that DRK is "fine".

If anything they should be congratulated and lauded for achieving such a feat at a disadvantage.

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How do you know they were at a disadvantage for taking DRK? Did they say that?

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

How do you know they were at a disadvantage for taking DRK? Did they say that?

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Because anyone with two working eyes and a functioning brain can figure that much out. Since fact of the matter is DRK genuinely has worse mitigation, party utility, and damage compared to the other two tanks. These are hard facts that have already been backed up by hard numbers and information presented by other people. So given those facts it's not hard to put two and two together and figure out taking the tank which does everything worse would put one at a disadvantage. But I suppose it must be very hard to understand for those who prefer to remain blissfully ignorant and unaware of the facts.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

How do you know they were at a disadvantage for taking DRK? Did they say that?

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Given that Dark Knight was taken instead of Warrior, this implies off-tank support was more valuable than party support. In this regard, while TBN is a fairly weak guard, it is more reliable and has more uptime in regards to aiding a fellow tank than Shake it off is, which is the only thing Warrior brings that helps the other tank.

Combine this with a focus on magic based tankbusters, and Dark Knight might be the more appealing choice. It is also possible that Warrior's timers do not line up well with the transitions / mechanics which eliminates much of the DPS advantage it brings as Dark Knight's peaks are lower, but the valleys are higher, where Warrior pulls ahead through absurd damage spikes.

With these assumptions in place, then Dark Knight would be the more favorable tank. This does not change the hard mechanical disadvantages it has in general scenarios though, and we cannot assume that every capstone encounter will cater to the struggling tank.

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Originally Posted by Vallamaria

Because anyone with two working eyes and a functioning brain can figure that much out.

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I sincerely hope you're not trying to call me an idiot (or worse), because I was suspended not long ago for doing such a thing.

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Since fact of the matter is DRK genuinely has worse mitigation, party utility, and damage compared to the other two tanks. These are hard facts that have already been backed up by hard numbers and information presented by other people. So given those facts it's not hard to put two and two together and figure out taking the tank which does everything worse would put one at a disadvantage.

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I'm well aware of the current discussion surrounding DRK, but, to my knowledge, no one has analyzed the differences in tank performance in Unending Coil. Have you? Are you saying that it is impossible for DRK to be a superior tank choice over WAR or PLD in Unending Coil? Now, I'm not saying that it's likely (or unlikely), but are you saying that it's impossible? If so, I take it you have extensive experience in Unending Coil to support such a statement?

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But I suppose it must be very hard to understand for those who prefer to remain blissfully ignorant and unaware of the facts.

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I would agree that DRK is the weakest of the three tanks, overall, but to suggest that DRK is inferior to its competition in every way, at every moment is a bit ignorant, if you ask me.

We cannot analyze dark performance in content that only one team has cleared. The feed back currently is about our known situation in savage where we see a clear decline in Dark Knight usage.

We were asked to wait to try the class, we were asked to wait to try the new primals, we were asked to wait for Savage. Now you want us to wait for ultimate?

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Originally Posted by Vallamaria

Sorry, but it would seem you're the one who is wrong and doesn't have a clue how tanking works in this game. Because DRK's overwhelming number of shortcomings compared to the other two tanks should be glaringly obvious to anyone that isn't blind. They have worse mitigation, party utility, AND damage compared to the other two tanks.

Also, the fact that the World First clear happened to contain a DRK rather than a WAR doesn't prove balance at all. It only proves DRK is definitely viable and not totally unplayable. However "viable" and "balanced" most certainly do not mean the same thing.

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If anything it proves that even with the SiO changes, DRK is way better than WAR and should take WAR's spot in all raids now, using this logic.

That DRK player just threw you guys under the bus. Drk does need work, but for some reason I see the devs coming up with a response like it is mostly a perception issue, tank balance is in a good spot, though we will keep our eyes on it.

Or maybe SE will say something akin to play what you like, all jobs are viable for all content. While we are sure some players are unhappy with how their class performs, as a whole we feel every class has a place within current content.

In short might be another get gud statement from the devs, which sucks, but I am sure they are also sick of reading tank balance change posts all the time.

They might be right though maybe it is time we take the class as it is and play what we enjoy, since ideal balance is just that an ideal, it is in our imagination.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

We cannot analyze dark performance in content that only one team has cleared.

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And yet some people seem to know that taking DRK into Unending Coil is putting your team at a disadvantage. How do they know this?

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We were asked to wait to try the class, we were asked to wait to try the new primals, we were asked to wait for Savage. Now you want us to wait for ultimate?

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Um, no? Did I say that? Did I imply that?

What I want is for people to be honest. You can't know whether taking DRK into Unending Coil is putting you at a disadvantage if you don't know the fight, unless you think DRK is always worse than the other tanks, in every way, no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

What I want is for people to be honest. .

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I'd like an honest dev response yes. I'm still waiting.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

And yet some people seem to know that taking DRK into Unending Coil is putting your team at a disadvantage. How do they know this?



Um, no? Did I say that? Did I imply that?

What I want is for people to be honest. You can't know whether taking DRK into Unending Coil is putting you at a disadvantage if you don't know the fight, unless you think DRK is always worse than the other tanks, in every way, no matter what.

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Personally I think tanks in tank stance are pretty balanced. I think tanks out are not. What I intend to imply here is that we are judging dark knight not on unending but what has already taken place. If we are actually being honest and thats what this is about then this whole nonsense of dark is fine because the job was in a world first clear is just as ridiculous a statement.

As far as I'm aware there isn't a post with their entire run aware, however, I've been away form the computer all day so maybe this has changed. Meaning we cannot even get details about the run other than that a dark was in the party.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

What I want is for people to be honest. You can't know whether taking DRK into Unending Coil is putting you at a disadvantage if you don't know the fight, unless you think DRK is always worse than the other tanks, in every way, no matter what.

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Yeah but thats just it, in my opinion, the most easily influenced players in the community would think along those lines of: "If you take a DRK, your putting your group at a disadvantage." Why do they think along those lines? It could be a simple case of taking the word of some of the most influential players in this game as God's word. But I could be wrong. The fact of the matter is, DRKs have never been deemed as not viable to clear content, EVEN ultimate, personally it just seems to me that tanks that can bring consistent personal and party mitigation are more valuable in one aspect, like a safety net. But at the same time, using this safety net wont come at a cost to most of their resources or worse, their DPS, which is where part of DRKs problem lies. Make no mistake, DRKs are viable and it has been proven by a fantastic player who just played the job and cleared ultimate JUST for fun more than following the current meta which most seem to believe is EVERYTHING.

I don't know the player, nor do I know the group personally. But I think it just goes to show that some jobs/party comps can offset the disadvantages another job has, put please do not read this as "I'm happy with DRK the way it is." its far from fine. We shouldn't take one player's success as a measure of how good or bad the job is, especially from one form of content. I want buffs as much as any other DRK main but I want them to make sense and within reason.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Personally I think tanks in tank stance are pretty balanced. I think tanks out are not. What I intend to imply here is that we are judging dark knight not on unending but what has already taken place. If we are actually being honest and thats what this is about then this whole nonsense of dark is fine because the job was in a world first clear is just as ridiculous a statement.

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Thing is the fact that a weak tank was able to clear the hardest content currently in the game will speak volumes to the dev team. That drk threw the DRK community under the bus and sort of ruined any chance you guys had at getting a rework in the near future. The devs will play the perception card, and it will be laced with a subtle get good statement.

It sucks, but the players that are making comments like if DRK is so bad how was it in the world first group, will honestly be the same gut reaction the devs will have.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Thing is the fact that a weak tank was able to clear the hardest content currently in the game will speak volumes to the dev team.

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Except WAR at 2.0, not tank was ever so badly designed/balanced that it couldn't clear the content. At worst, PLD had a really hard time when Gordias was just released and gear was scarce. A thing that can't happen for Unending Coil since it won't drop better gear to make things easier.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

What I intend to imply here is that we are judging dark knight not on unending but what has already taken place.

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If DRK is strong in Unending Coil (and I don't know that it is), then I think it's of interest to know why. I can think of a few possible reasons, but I can't confirm them since I've only spent half a lockout in Unending Coil. That said, Unending Coil isn't really representative of the rest of the game.

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If we are acktually being honest and thats what this is about then this whole nonsense of dark is fine the job was in a world first clear is just as ridiculous a statement.

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I agree, though I don't know that SE will see it that way.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except WAR at 2.0, not tank was ever so badly designed/balanced that it couldn't clear the content. At worst, PLD had a really hard time when Gordias was just released and gear was scarce. A thing that can't happen for Unending Coil since it won't drop better gear to make things easier.

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And how many times has SE gone back and gave reworks to tanks? I mean wasn't pld left mostly untouched during 3.0? I am still new, but even from the brief time playing the game, SE seems to be afraid to add changes to tanks, I am certain the only reason shake it off was reworked was because even they were unable to think of many situations were that skill was useful. They might do potency adjustments here and there, but it seems most of the DRK community wants more then a potency readjustment.

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Originally Posted by Awha

And how many times has SE gone back and gave reworks to tanks? I mean wasn't pld left mostly untouched during 3.0?

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No, PLD was tweaked at almost each major patch.
As an example, these are the changes it received at 3.2 :

• Fast Blade

  TP cost has been reduced from 70 to 60.

• Savage Blade

  The amount of enmity generated has been increased.

• Goring Blade

  Potency when used as a combo action has been increased from 220 to 240.

  Damage over time potency has been increased from 40 to 50.

• Royal Authority

  Potency when used as a combo action has been increased from 340 to 350.

• Clemency

  Casting time reduced from 3 to 2 seconds.

• Divine Veil

  The protective barrier that is cast on all party members within range when you receive a healing spell now activates even when healing yourself.

  Recast time reduced from 150 seconds to 120 seconds.

• Sword Oath

  Use will no longer interrupt weaponskill combos.

• Shield Oath

  Use will no longer interrupt weaponskill combos.

  Damage penalty has been reduced from 20% to 15%.

  The amount of enmity generated has been increased.

That's a lot of small changes, but I the same kind of changes would help DRK be a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, PLD ws tweaked at almost each major patch.

That's a lot of small changes, but I the same kind of changes would help DRK be a lot better.

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Pld was still a meme class during most of 3.0 right? Or were most pld players during 3.0 happy with their class? It seems like they were unhappy with slight adjustments and only truly happy after the rework in 4.0. Maybe that is why SE is unwilling to be do slight adjustments for DRK, seems like a waste of time on their part since people will still complain.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Pld was still a meme class during most of 3.0 right? Or were most pld players during 3.0 happy with their class? It seems like they were unhappy with potency adjustments, and only truly happy after the rework in 4.0. Maybe that is why SE is unwilling to be do potency adjustments for DRK, seems like a waste of time on their part since people will still complain.

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They weren't really happy, but PLD had, in my opinion, deepest issues that DRK has now. PLD had no GCD AoE, strong TP issues and almost no utility as an off-tank.
On top of that, the content was design around magical damage making its inability to block magic a deep flaw and the additional effect on RoH useless, while DRK was heavily equipped to face such situations.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, PLD ws tweaked at almost each major patch.
As an example, these are the changes it received at 3.2 :

• Fast Blade

  TP cost has been reduced from 70 to 60.

• Savage Blade

  The amount of enmity generated has been increased.

• Goring Blade

  Potency when used as a combo action has been increased from 220 to 240.

  Damage over time potency has been increased from 40 to 50.

• Royal Authority

  Potency when used as a combo action has been increased from 340 to 350.

• Clemency

  Casting time reduced from 3 to 2 seconds.

• Divine Veil

  The protective barrier that is cast on all party members within range when you receive a healing spell now activates even when healing yourself.

  Recast time reduced from 150 seconds to 120 seconds.

• Sword Oath

  Use will no longer interrupt weaponskill combos.

• Shield Oath

  Use will no longer interrupt weaponskill combos.

  Damage penalty has been reduced from 20% to 15%.

  The amount of enmity generated has been increased.

That's a lot of small changes, but I the same kind of changes would help DRK be a lot better.

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I mean if we ignore the fact that pacth 3.2 took 9 months and those changes didn't helped paladin at all and that it didn't recieve any susbtantial changes up until creator. that bein said DRK is not even close to the spot pally or warrior was previously to recieve mayor overhaul all drk needs is % adjustments, all I would argue drk needs is a 3 combo ad that's what was hurting pally in arr and heaves ward the class was too simple, while people enjoy the over simplyfied version I'd argue many more don't. but that's subjective. other than that drk does no need this much level of rework.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

He never said DRK was better than WAR/PLD. People here needs to learn howw to read.

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Take your own advice, sweetheart. It's an example not an absolute. She's arguing DRK is balanced yet it's objectively inferior at every aspect. She's been asked by multiple people now to explain what it does better than either of PLD or WAR and in lieu of answering the question, went on a silly rant about the community.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Take your own advice, sweetheart. It's an example not an absolute. She's arguing DRK is balanced yet it's objectively inferior at every aspect. She's been asked by multiple people now to explain what it does better than either of PLD or WAR and in lieu of answering the question, went on a silly rant about the community.

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and I've answered multiple times that, just because the class is 1% less eficient that the otehr 2 doesn't mean is not balanced, and my rant with the community is related to the fact you and the community is too centered on "the facts" and "the numbers" and how paladin and war does everything else but better because "balance and "meta" when in in FACT all classes are in a almost perfect spot they are all extremely similar in performance and I've said multiple times that drk needs small adjustment but other than that EVERY SINGLE TANK is in a really good spot and this forum section is filled with overdramatization becase people don't like to be third place, the simple fact that drk beated ultimate doesn't mean the class is "viable" it means it works, there's nothing wrong with it aside from personal preference and entitlement. the only argument that I get behind is that they class is too simple now but that's personal preference when it comes to performance there's nothing you loose by bringing a DRK as you did by bringing a palading in 3.0 or a war in 2.0

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

and I've answered multiple times that, just because the class is 1% less eficient that the otehr 2 doesn't mean is not balanced, and my rant with the community is related to the fact you and the community is too centered on "the facts" and "the numbers" and how paladin and war does everything else but better because "balance and "meta" when in in FACT all classes are in a almost perfect spot they are all extremely similar in performance and I've said multiple times that drk needs small adjustment but other than that EVERY SINGLE TANK is in a really good spot and this forum section is filled with overdramatization becase people don't like to be third place, the simple fact that drk beated ultimate doesn't mean the class is "viable" it means it works, there's nothing wrong with it aside from personal preference and entitlement. the only argument that I get behind is that they class is too simple now but that's personal preference when it comes to performance there's nothing you loose by bringing a DRK as you did by bringing a palading in 3.0 or a war in 2.0

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Between the time where WAR had it's potencies/gauge cost for switching stances, and the changes to SiO: was WAR in balance with the other two tanks?

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Between the time where WAR had it's potencies/gauge cost for switching stances, and the changes to SiO: was WAR in balance with the other two tanks?

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on 4.0 I made a thread and agreed that war was in a bad spot I play all 3 tanks and I want to see all 3 of them performing good, on 4.05 war did got extremely better than 4.0 they fixed the rotation and major issues it had and I'd argue yes warrior was in a good spot, while people argue that it's harder for war to bring number like pally for me it's personally easier as oposed to pally war has 1 mayor busrt window and 1 small (ofcourse if you mes sit up you screw a lot of your dps) but because paladin is more constant you have higher chances of screwing FoF or Spirit window ofcourse all this is subjective. was war balanced? Jus like DRK now, it was on a really good spot but it needed just 1 small adjustment which either was more dps or raid utility, they got raid utility and war right now is just perfect, it feels good to play it has the best damage and really good raid utility.

the problem with drk was that they honestly did a very bad job personally when they oversimplified the class from 3.x to 4.0 they made it what it was essentially paly on 2.x 2 combo, too easy, too simpe and most of the drk community liked drk because of how much management it required it had the defense and damage and the skill cieling was very high so going from 3.x to 4.x it felt like a downgrade And at that I agree all the way through. but the class is far from THE WORST TANK EVER, SE GIVE ANSWERS, YOU KILLED THE CLASS. Unless your name is on the top 10 fflogs the damage different bewteen tanks is nonexistent, if you need more dps you can do it by improving as a player, the defense while yes it's the weakest from all 3 is still just as freaking good as any, and tbn was god like until war got SiO and now for some reason TBN is not good anymore lol.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

and I've answered multiple times that, just because the class is 1% less eficient that the otehr 2 doesn't mean is not balanced, and my rant with the community is related to the fact you and the community is too centered on "the facts" and "the numbers" and how paladin and war does everything else but better because "balance and "meta" when in in FACT all classes are in a almost perfect spot they are all extremely similar in performance and I've said multiple times that drk needs small adjustment but other than that EVERY SINGLE TANK is in a really good spot and this forum section is filled with overdramatization becase people don't like to be third place, the simple fact that drk beated ultimate doesn't mean the class is "viable" it means it works, there's nothing wrong with it aside from personal preference and entitlement. the only argument that I get behind is that they class is too simple now but that's personal preference when it comes to performance there's nothing you loose by bringing a DRK as you did by bringing a palading in 3.0 or a war in 2.0

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Yes, let's exclude those pesky facts and numbers. They just get in the way of an emotional outburst don't they? Sorry, but I prefer objective analysis over rants. So with that being said, let's compare...

- Shadow Wall is both weaker in mitigation, lacks a secondary characteristic and has a lower cooldown than Sentinel and Vengeance
- What answer does Dark Knight have for Equilibrium and Clemency? Oh right, nothing.
- Grit costs 1,800 MP and a GCD, Shield Oath costs less and Defiance doesn't have a cost period.
- Their single bit of raid utility comes with a built-in handicap. It only effects a single person and if the shield doesn't pop, you've lost DPS for essentially no gain. Divine Veil and Shake it Off cover the entire party with no drawback.
- How does Dark Knight counter Passage of Arms, Inner Beast or Thrill of Battle?

These are not small adjustments nor over-dramatizations to say DRK is objectively inferior. Some people may care about being in third place, I don't. I mained bloody SAM this tier, and it has fallen hard since 4.0. Likewise, I couldn't care less about meta. I simply don't want any job to be inferior at everything. To say there is nothing wrong only demonstrates ignorance and is why PLD remained the redheaded step-child for two years. The fact you'll claim you lost nothing bringing PLD to a fight like A3S or A12S only further shows you don't know tanks. Note, viability and balance are not the same thing. PLD, like DRK now, could do every fight. It simply wasn't nearly as good as its counterparts.

All the WF clear proves is how good those players are otherwise, who cares if Summoner now out-dpses both BLM and SAM while bringing far superior utility. Who cares they marginally buffed DRG, the job that needed it the least. If we're going to make a viability argument, then job discussion should end completely since everything can clear and only that matters.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

but the class is far from THE WORST TANK EVER, SE GIVE ANSWERS, YOU KILLED THE CLASS. Unless your name is on the top 10 fflogs the damage different bewteen tanks is nonexistent, if you need more dps you can do it by improving as a player, the defense while yes it's the weakest from all 3 is still just as freaking good as any, and tbn was god like until war got SiO and now for some reason TBN is not good anymore lol.

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Because some twat on reddit said DRK is dead with a straight face (keep in mind, people meme), you're going to base an entire argument around it? None of us here care nor have said DRK can't clear content. We simply used facts-- yes, those pesky things again-- to demonstrate why it needs some rather noteworthy adjustments. For whatever reason, SE only seem to respond when you beat them over the head with said issues. Warriors got their adjustments by never shutting up and insisting the job wasn't playable. WHM got theirs for the same reason. So...

Gratz to the world 1st group that used DRK... enough incentive for me to keep paying my sub so long as Yoshi-P gradually fixes the things wrong with DRK... like every major patch update but just fixing it enough to see if people like the would-be changes like with what they did with WAR...

I think the reason DRK's need for buffs has gotten to the point of calling it unplayable is because SE hasn't talked about it since before SB launch. Square isn't acknowledging the issues with the job so we keep talking about it without any input from the devs and may have started to exaggerate out of desperation for them to mention that DRK's still exist.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

Jus like DRK now, it was on a really good spot but it needed just 1 small adjustment which either was more dps or raid utility, they got raid utility

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TBN is not raid utility, raid utility is RAID WIDE... TBN is one person, that is not a good excuse to not give us something in exchange (Especially since the other two tanks sacrifice NOTHING to give their utility)

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Unless your name is on the top 10 fflogs the damage different bewteen tanks is nonexistent, if you need more dps you can do it by improving as a player, the defense while yes it's the weakest from all 3 is still just as freaking good as any, and tbn was god like until war got SiO and now for some reason TBN is not good anymore lol.

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I got #1 on Alte Roite as a DRK.... soooo? More dps is always a good thing, making clears faster means less time spent using mitigation and less time healers need to heal you. TBN was never good, I really only use it on my opener to get an easy delirium then never touch it again. Intervention + reprisal >>>> tbnasty any day, you don't lose anything for it and they are both up in a quick time.... trust me you never need tbn every 15 seconds, plus if you have that much mana on your drk you are probably doing something wrong..

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Take your own advice, sweetheart. It's an example not an absolute. She's arguing DRK is balanced yet it's objectively inferior at every aspect. She's been asked by multiple people now to explain what it does better than either of PLD or WAR and in lieu of answering the question, went on a silly rant about the community.

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No she's not, take your time and read her post again. It can be difficult but I'm sure you can do it.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

No she's not, take your time and read her post again. It can be difficult but I'm sure you can do it.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

B-But MU TUNK BALANCE... I've been saying it for a while now

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

tank perform extremely well the problem is not the tanks is the players.

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And that's only from a single page. I know you're hung up over my example, but it changes nothing regarding the argument. Would you prefer I say "meta'? It's silly semantic when the crux of her argument is validity equates to balance when that is simply not the case. DRK isn't balanced against PLD or WAR. That's it. I know it's hard but you really should take your own advice.

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Originally Posted by NellMoshroca

I think the reason DRK's need for buffs has gotten to the point of calling it unplayable is because SE hasn't talked about it since before SB launch. Square isn't acknowledging the issues with the job so we keep talking about it without any input from the devs and may have started to exaggerate out of desperation for them to mention that DRK's still exist.

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Probably because they're waiting for an LL for them to mention any changes if I had to guess. The Devs absolutely will not mention numerical changes before patch notes for 3.2 come out, it'd be super out of place for them to do that.

It's always weird with this forum how people seem to think that the devs will break form and talk about something in a way they never have before. If you guys are expecting them to talk about it wait for an interview or the LL. Enough traffic has been made on the back of DRK fix requests that it's literally impossible that the devs haven't heard of the concerns.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

Probably because they're waiting for an LL for them to mention any changes if I had to guess. The Devs absolutely will not mention numerical changes before patch notes for 3.2 come out, it'd be super out of place for them to do that.

It's always weird with this forum how people seem to think that the devs will break form and talk about something in a way they never have before. If you guys are expecting them to talk about it wait for an interview or the LL. Enough traffic has been made on the back of DRK fix requests that it's literally impossible that the devs haven't heard of the concerns.

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Yeah... except that we didn't just start asking for changes and fixes in 4.1. We've been asking them since pretty much the day the tooltips have come out. There have been two major patches and many minor patches in between and a handful of LLs. They've not given a proper address to any of our concerns.

This is addressed to many, not necessarily the quoted poster: People have been on this forum brainstorming and attempting to figure out ways to fix the job, ways to determine what the job's core problems are, and ways to get SE to notice, for about 4-5 months now.

Now that WF UCOB has hit, people I've never seen post in here before are running in from out of the woodwork to tell us all the feedback we've been giving since 4.0's launch, feedback which they took no part in, (amenable, critical, or otherwise,) is somehow invalidated by one player being an unspeakable badass and clearing UCOB with a viable but still very flawed and weak job.



Lets say you drive a potato-brick. An atrocity on wheels. People have been telling you to get it fixed forever, but you don't. Suddenly one day, it takes you twice as long to get to work in your brick-tato because of traffic, and maybe you also get in a bit of a fenderbender too. Later you tell everyone your car is fine because it got you to work through really bad traffic and survived a minor car accident, so your crappy car must not actually be crappy. The oil leak, screeching transmission, broken a/c, crack in the window and doors that won't open from the inside are a-okay.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

snip.

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While it sucks, maybe the devs are okay with viable instead of balanced, since true balance is one of those nearly impossible goal, outside of making every class equal. I would like to see changes to DRK, but given how long they have ignored addressing drk, the class may be destined to be the pld the meme tank class of 4.0, but on the bright side drk is a tad better off then 3.0 pld.

If they have yet to even mention DRK, it appears that the devs are okay with the current stance on the tanks, and in their eyes they must be balanced. It sucks, but the main difference between war getting their rework most of the community stood behind the fact that war was in a bad spot, with the drk being in the wf group it will create a divided. That drk from jp low key screwed the drk community wanting change. Prob will not get a rework until the patch after 4.2, if that.

Honestly, the changes to class balance we've seen since 4.0 launched until now have been enormous relative to how reticent and unwilling to enact change SE was in Heavensward. Warrior, Summoner, Dragoon, White Mage, and Scholar have all received post-4.0 changes that are as drastic (if not more drastic) than the changes that Astrologian got throughout Heavensward, and in 3.x, AST was the only class that had such drastic changes applied to the actual functionality of their skills (which is to say, Machinist and Bard also got massive buffs in 3.2 and 3.3, but those buffs just took the form of buffing the hell out of skills that already existed).



It's frustrating (and really, kind of pathetic) that SE seems to only be able to enact these changes 1-2 jobs at a time, and that they completely ignore other jobs to make those changes, and that they only ever react to feedback and problems instead of being proactive and actually anticipating really obvious balance issues, and it's especially galling that they don't actual respond or communicate with the community outside of Live Letter style infodumps, but you really can't look at the way they mishandled Paladin in Heavensward and extrapolate that to mean that they aren't going to do anything about DRK's equally bad predicament in Stormblood, because they've already shown that they're okay with making large changes, that they're okay with changing skill functionality, that they aren't as worried about power creep as the smoothbrains who come out of the woodwork to pretend to be very concerned with power creep now that the spotlight is off of Warrior and onto Dark Knight, etc.

The important thing is just to stay on message, and keep the feedback up. Actual data is on our side, here: DRK objective performs more poorly along just about every conceivable metric you could measure a tank by, and DRK's popularity has absolutely fallen off a cliff since they broke WAR in 4.1. A single world-first clear is not a metric that they can use to justify balance concerns, particularly when the player in question is on record saying essentially "I didn't play DRK because it was actually good, I just like the class".

The people pushing the "DRK got world first, therefore no problems can exist" narrative are almost exclusively people who play WAR and PLD who want to make sure that their classes they on top, or a small handful of DRK headcases who can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of only being willing/able to play one class when that class brings nothing to the table that a competitor class can't do better, and have to turn it into a justification for why the class is actually really great or that the disadvantages don't matter. The people who actually affect the usage statistics (ie: The people who can and will pack up and move to some other class from DRK) have pretty much already spoken, and that's what SE is most likely to respond to. Vocalizing exactly why that's the case will give them direction as to how to actually fix it.

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Originally Posted by Awha

While it sucks, maybe the devs are okay with viable instead of balanced, since true balance is one of those nearly impossible goal, outside of making every class equal. I would like to see changes to DRK, but given how long they have ignored addressing drk, the class may be destined to be the pld the meme tank class of 4.0, but on the bright side drk is a tad better off then 3.0 pld.

If they have yet to even mention DRK, it appears that the devs are okay with the current stance on the tanks, and in their eyes they must be balanced. It sucks, but the main difference between war getting their rework most of the community stood behind the fact that war was in a bad spot, with the drk being in thewf group it will create a divided. That drk from jp low key screwed the drk community wanting change. Prob will not get a rework until the patch after 4.2, if that.

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I don't really think its fair to say he screwed us, and that's not the kind of attitude I'd want us (people that would like to see DRK fixed) to convey, tbh.

As far as being the meme class, I really don't think we should send a message that that is okay. Yeah perfect balance is not a readily attainable goal, but plenty of players here on the forums have made a lot of very simple, good, and easy to implement suggestions that would work wonders without robbing PLD or WAR of their specialities. I do not want to send the message that it is okay for game balance issues to just sit and stew in their juices for multiple patches at a time. Like Crater said in the post above, it shouldn't take much to be proactive.

Speaking of specialties, I tend to disagree that we are better than 3.x PLD.

3.x PLD had a number of things it could do better than 3.x DRK, like mitigate physical damage, and provide spot-raid mitigation (i.e. things like Cover and DV can be put where you want them when you want them, unlike the old Reprisal for instance). These made PLD an all-round better choice for a decent handful of raids. 4.x DRK, while viable, can't really be said to be better at anything than 4.x WAR/PLD. 3.x PLD had a niche, 4.x DRK doesn't.

And that's really all we've been asking SE for: a niche. Give us something that we are REALLY good at, a thing (just one thing) that we can do better than the other two tanks that is meaningful. A competitive edge. We don't wanna be better than them at everything, or get carbon copies of all their skills. We just want to have a specialty.

TBH the best buff DRK needs is a buff to fun.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Their reactions to the state of the job has no bearing on your enjoyment of the game and honestly can only serve to benefit you in the long run. If it doesn't affect your enjoyment, great, but for some, it does.

I will never understand the casual community's hostility towards people pushing for progress on balance issues like it is a personal affront to their fun.

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Their borderline neuroticism would be one reason why people have no use for them. Metas tend to make any multiplayer game less fun, and the amateur mathematicians on this forum are certainly part of that.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Their borderline neuroticism would be one reason why people have no use for them. Metas tend to make any multiplayer game less fun, and the amateur mathematicians on this forum are certainly part of that.

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I love how much re-branding is being done in this thread.

Dark Knight: "Hey guys I want to change the job balance, I feel inferior in almost every way as a tank compared to others, here is a list and actual analysis of what I mean".

Random person: "Stop whining about meta and play something you actually like".

Other person: "Yeah you cannot possibly think that you are inferior in every possible way that is ridiculous someone cleared difficult content on the class, stop over dramatizing".

We have even been told in this thread that facts and numbers are just points that we get hung up on, like actual data has no bearing in this discussion lol. Hey you know what else has no bearing on your enjoyment of the game? Dark knights asking the developer for changes to their job because they don't feel the job is performing its role in the way that 2/3 of the other jobs do.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

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I'm not saying that what SE does when it comes to talking about balance is good, I'm saying they're stubborn and don't like making changes to some jobs sometimes for one reason or another. Why did SMN get a lot of changes when they didn't ask for a whole lot? Most of the people who play them (including me) would have waited until 4.2 for any changes because SMN was already fine. Why didn't DRK get the changes? Who knows, it doesn't make sense sometimes.

Personally? I have no horse in the DRK buff race, I play PLD/WAR for raid because my co-tank categorically refuses to play anything but DRK. A lot of the changes I read seem cool, some fanciful, I just hope that when the patch notes for 4.2 drop there isn't a riot because not every box is being ticked for changes the community brainstormed on its own.

I don't think arguing with people is going to help DRK's cause. Just remain vigilant. There are people that raise their concerns when classes are doing very well, it's only natural to raise concerns or bring ideas to the table if you feel like your class isn't up to par. Some of us play tanks side by side and can feel the differences in what they do well and don't and that affects our views on them all the more.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

No she's not, take your time and read her post again. It can be difficult but I'm sure you can do it.

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Maybe you should be the one to go back and read. Because it seems like you’ve done everything but that.

Just because a DRK cleared WF Ultimate, and just because it can do content and is viable in content, doesn’t mean that the job is balanced or without flaws.

—In terms of DPS, it is the weakest of the three.
—In terms of mitigation, it is the weakest of the three (and has been since HW, mind you—DRK shined in a few fights compared to PLD/WAR, but it was still the weakest in terms of mitigation and cooldowns).
—In terms of rotation and gameplay, it’s even more braindead than sub-50 PLD, which is pretty boring—and DRK doesn’t really get any better, since the devs took away Delirium combo AND Scourge. DRK has basically boiled down to DA+Souleater > DA+Souleater > DA+Bloodspiller when you have Gauge for it > DA+ Souleater > DA+Souleater > Rinse and Repeat for single target. AOE is...maybe kind of interesting with Quietus, but I still dislike the nerf they gave to Blood Price (along with locking it behind Grit). It made DA+Abysmal Drain self-healing only viable in extremely large pulls, since the mana you get back from BP just isn’t sufficient to spam DA+Abysmal as frequently as you could in HW (which brings up how DRK has an extreme lack of self-healing compared to the other two tanks).
—You’d don’t even have to manage MP anymore—they got rid of that too.
—In terms of raid utility, it has a single-target shield... compare that to PLD’s Divine Veil and WAR’s new toy Shake It Off, TBN is laughable. PLD/WAR can shield the entire raid. DRK can shield... itself? A healer? The BRD? Yay? TBN is great for tankbusters and during AOE pulls; don’t get me wrong. But in terms of raid utility compared to the shields of PLD and WAR? Again, laughable.

Really, all DRK has going for it is its storyline. Gameplay-wise, it may be viable, but it is still with flaws and still has an extremely mind-numbingly boring rotation. Which makes me sad because DRK was my go-to tank in HW. Now I just feel like it’s a shell of its former self. But, again, perhaps you should go back and read this thread before you start with your condescending remarks that add absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand.