Can Red Mage aoe be less boring?

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Originally Posted by Averax

Simple class has simple aoe.

:O

Honestly i hate setuppy aoe rotations, because mobs seldom live long enough for the setup to pay off.

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That's why you set up while the tank is setting up. ;)

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Not quite. A few classes have fun aoe.

Mudra's on 18 sec cooldown, with death blossom weapon skill, Ten Chi Jin and Kassastu also can be used as Aoe with hell frog medium.

I just want Red mage aoe to be slightly more then two buttons? A blm using fire 2 and flare at level 50 is more interesting as you actually have to do stuff. Then you get Thunder 4, foul, and umbral hearts when you hit 70. Meaning you can flare multiple times, thunder 4 or you can focus on foul.

Some classes aoe is boring, and every class that has boring aoe should be made fun in my opinion. It's just that Red Mage has the most sleep inducing Aoe. I will never play red mage at anything under level 70 because I don't want to just spam scatter through level 50 dungeons.

Scatter and Moulinet... pretty boring after awhile, and my sole complaint about red mage.

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Dude aoe situations with NIN are freaking boring because you spam death blossom, use mudras, spam death blossom, use frog, spam death blossom...aaaaaaand so on.

It is boring as hell just like on every other class too

As NIN you have 3 things for aoe. One of it are mudras, where you mostly use Katon since tanks move the mobs out of doton anyway, you have the frog what takes a while to build up and you have death blossom what still drains your tp like crazy. On the other hand you have the RDM who builds up Moulinett and waits for the other cd during scatter spam. Its not really different besides that you as a RDM don't run out of mana at all...

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Dude aoe situations with NIN are freaking boring because you spam death blossom, use mudras, spam death blossom, use frog, spam death blossom...aaaaaaand so on.

On the other hand you have the RDM who builds up Moulinett and waits for the other cd during scatter spam.

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You kinda killed your own argument.
Red Mage IS MORE BORING THEN NINJA WHO SPAMS SCATTER AND WAITS FOR THE OTHER CD And builds up Moulinet.
Red Mage Spam Scatter, Spam Scatter, Spam scatter, Spam Scatter, Spam Scatter, Man, I would Love to use contre, but it's still on cd. Guess It's time to spam scatter. How's gauge looking? 38/38? Welp, there's 5 adds here. Guess I better spam Scatter.

So, Ninja has Mudras, Hellfrog, and Deathblossom and that's boring compared to Scatter spam while I WAIT for meter to build and a 45 second Cd? Dude, If you think Ninja is boring, You would have a seizure from how dull Red Mage aoe is.

if Kassastu, Ten Chi Jin, Hellfrog medium, Deathblossom, and Mudras are boring, How boring do you think Ninja would be if they had half of that?

Red mage has Enchanted Moulinet which is the equivalent of Hellfrog (Building up meter for an aoe)
Scatter is the same as Deathblossom, and Contre Sixte is the equivalent of half of a Ninja's mudras. 45 second cooldown. That's longer then two mudras. Tell me what's more boring? Two mudras over 40 seconds, that lets you pick which aoe you want, (Let's say you choose Katon 2x)
or Contre Sixte. 250 Potency Katon every 20 seconds, (500 potency total in that time) or Contre Sixte 300 every 45.

So next time you play Ninja, Pretend you are a red mage. Just spam deathblossom, wait 45 seconds per Mudra, and only use Hellfrog Medium. If you find that you aren't waiting enough, Don't use mug to build gauge.

You do the same with Ninja. You spam death blossom until other things are ready. What the hell is wrong with you? If you think every other class is more interesting then play them...geez

>Be Red Mage.

>Think that 320 potency of AoE oGCD goodness every 45s whilst other classes need to wait longer for slightly lower (Dragoon and their Dragonfire Dive and the fact that they need BotD to get Geirskogul (which itself is on a 35s cooldown) and LotD to get Nastrond (which might take a minute or more) as an example) is "too long".

>Think that Scatter is the only viable AoE on groups of 4+ (clearly Moulinet doesn't exist)

are we sure this isn't bait?

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Contre Sixte - 300 Potency - 45 Second cooldown. Red Mage's strongest aoe.
Foul - 650 Potency - 30 Second Cooldown. Black Mage's Strongest aoe.

I want something to Supplement Red Mage's aoe. Not necessarily make it stonger, But definitely make it more interesting.

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Yet you are comparing the dps difference between two casters where one is designed to deal higher damage but with less utility. Could say RDM's Embolden is also just as strong in AoE pulls.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

list of AoE skills for DPS

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Geirskogul has long cooldown. Doom Spike and Sonic Thrust are TP-hungry as is the case with all melee aoe gcds. Nostrand takes too much time to build up.
Monk's Howling Fist is 60s cooldown. Bard's AoE is basically just dotting everything and spam Rain of Death from Ballad procs or just non-stop Quick Nock Spam. Mch's Ricochet and Flamethrower is 60s cooldown, Hypercharge and Turret Overdrive is 120s and mostly it's just Spread Shot spam.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

My only problem with it, is that it's boring. Go grab a Red Mage, and tell me how exciting it is spamming scatter every 50 dungeon.

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Every class is "boring" to AoE dps in lvl 50 dungeons except SAM, SMN and BLM.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

The only thing worth mentioning, is while Scatter costs less to cast, it also is one of the weakest potency wise. Dualcast Scatter is 200 potency over the course of two gcds. Deathblossom is 110 potency, Doomspike is 130.

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Again, cost to use. Why are we comparing potencies anyway?

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Originally Posted by Ilan

You do the same with Ninja. You spam death blossom until other things are ready. What the hell is wrong with you? If you think every other class is more interesting then play them...geez

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That kinda misses the whole point. I want Red Mage aoe not to be sleep inducing. Kinda the whole point of this was to show how little Aoe Red Mage has, and make it more enjoyable then mindless scatter spam, while I wait a minute to use the only other aoes it has.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

>Be Red Mage.

>Think that 320 potency of AoE oGCD goodness every 45s whilst other classes need to wait longer for slightly lower (Dragoon and their Dragonfire Dive and the fact that they need BotD to get Geirskogul (which itself is on a 35s cooldown) and LotD to get Nastrond (which might take a minute or more) as an example) is "too long".

>Think that Scatter is the only viable AoE on groups of 4+ (clearly Moulinet doesn't exist)

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I mentioned Moulinet several times, It's the third Aoe Red Mage.
You also conveniently ignore the fact that you can keep up BotD, with Dragoon's Doom Spike then Sonic Thrust Combo. (Sonic Thrust looks amazing). And it does more damage then Scatter spam. Contre is only 300 potency, that has fall off damage the more enemies it hits, and is the last of Red Mage's aoe. They have 2 other moves. Scatter and Moulinet. Dragoon has Doom Spike, Sonic Thrust, Dragonfire Dive, Gierskogul, and Nastrond. The game actively encourages you to use this, as the Sonic Thrust extends Botd. Nastrond is 320 potency with no fall off. 10 Second cooldown time, and 960 Aoe Potency total when you use all three. Kinda significant when that doesn't decrease with all the adds you hit. Red Mage's Contre would take about two and a half minutes to do 900 potency, that drops for every enemy it hits.

While Contre is decently powerful for what it is, Most classes have multiple Ogcds that do more damage.

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Originally Posted by AiharaMizuki

Yet you are comparing the dps difference between two casters where one is designed to deal higher damage but with less utility. Could say RDM's Embolden is also just as strong in AoE pulls.

Every class is "boring" to AoE dps in lvl 50 dungeons except SAM, SMN and BLM.

Again, cost to use. Why are we comparing potencies anyway?

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Being tp hungry hardly matters in dungeons, when you will regen all of it back before the next pull. And Tp costs don't matter, as long as Skills such as Invigorate, Goad, Purification exist, Tp song exist.And Cost to use doesn't matter, when Red Mage naturally doesn't use much Mana ever.


When it come's to Blm, It's the biggest example of how boring Red Mage's aoe is.

Fire 2, Blizzard 2, Thunder 4, Thunder 4 Procs, Multiple Flares with Umbral Hearts, Foul, with Enokian, Ley Lines, and Surecast.
This is more about Blm's aoe arsenal in Aoe, with showing how strong it is, to show how deficient Red Mage Aoe is.
Blm is currently at the same Level of Dps of Samurai. Something Red Mage will never have. I would honestly prefer Scatter to be changed to make the next attack an aoe. Atleast then I would have a hotbar's worth of options of Aoe.

Dragoon's Aoe is tp hungry, but like I mentioned in the post before, Doom Thrust, Sonic Thrust combo. Gierskogul, Dragonfire Dive, Nastrond is still more then what Red Mage has. Both in potency and Numbers. I'm partially surprised they didn't keep Ring of thorns and add it into the Gcd Aoe combo. Regardless, Still more then what Red Mage has, with Sonic Thrust lengthening Botd time and giving access to Geirskogul. When you do have access to Nastrond, in total its 960 Aoe potency, with no fall off damage. That's kinda insane.

Even Bard is more interesting, as you have to keep songs up, with Rain of Death being 15 seconds or a proc resetting it. Oh Mana cost a thing? Tp song.

Any class that has more then 3 moves, still outclasses Red Mage. I wouldn't mind Red Mage's Aoe costing more mana, If they actually got some.
Mana costs on Red Mage basically a non issue ever. Something to spend the Mana on, is fine by me.

Implying people use Blizzard 2.

What.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Implying people use Blizzard 2.

What.

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Legit haven't seen Blizzard 2 used since it was a cross skill and I had it on SMN.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Being tp hungry hardly matters in dungeons, when you will regen all of it back before the next pull. And Tp costs don't matter, as long as Skills such as Invigorate, Goad, Purification exist, Tp song exist.And Cost to use doesn't matter, when Red Mage naturally doesn't use much Mana ever.

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Hemorrhaging TP isn't ever a good idea for any class that relies on it. That's why they removed the extraneous AoEs that didn't have a point, and reduced TP costs for basic skills.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

When it come's to Blm, It's the biggest example of how boring Red Mage's aoe is.

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Oh boy. I'll save my little diatribe after you explain.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Fire 2, Blizzard 2, Thunder 4, Thunder 4 Procs, Multiple Flares with Umbral Hearts, Foul, with Enokian, Ley Lines, and Surecast.
This is more about Blm's aoe arsenal in Aoe, with showing how strong it is, to show how deficient Red Mage Aoe is.

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There's no point to Blizzard II, because it's absolute garbage. Freeze objectively replaces it, but blech. Thunder IV procs are LUCKBASED, surecast is available to all casters and Enochian and Ley Lines aren't AoEs to begin with.
Also, you can't compare Black Mage's playstyle to Red Mage because DPS is a lot more varied in playstyles with each job having different strengths and weaknesses. Like, this is a mistake at best and disingenuous at WORST. Black Mage is good at AoE because that's its DESIGN to be the AoE king of Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Blm is currently at the same Level of Dps of Samurai. Something Red Mage will never have. I would honestly prefer Scatter to be changed to make the next attack an aoe. Atleast then I would have a hotbar's worth of options of Aoe.

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Are you BLIND? No seriously, are you blind and unaware of complaints and criticisms of Red Mage? Even after the buff to Black Mage allowed them to fully make use of their Umbral Hearts for their single target rotation, RED MAGE MORE THAN MAKES UP THE DIFFERENCE THROUGH INTUITIVE AND SIMPLE ROTATIONS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...0_of_each_job/

Granted, there is a caveat. This was two months ago. Recently, the strongest caster dps in Savage and whatnot have proven not to be Black Mage... but rather, of all things, Summoner. In fact, on FFlogs, SMN has been proven (when mastered) to hit a reliable 5k to almost 6k dps, much like Samurai, whilst Black Mage struggles to match 5k.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Dragoon's Aoe is tp hungry, but like I mentioned in the post before, Doom Thrust, Sonic Thrust combo. Gierskogul, Dragonfire Dive, Nastrond is still more then what Red Mage has. Both in potency and Numbers. I'm partially surprised they didn't keep Ring of thorns and add it into the Gcd Aoe combo. Regardless, Still more then what Red Mage has, with Sonic Thrust lengthening Botd time and giving access to Geirskogul. When you do have access to Nastrond, in total its 960 Aoe potency, with no fall off damage. That's kinda insane.

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Except Dragoons have constantly complained how boring the Nastrond phase is, since it's essentially just "Spam Nastrond until you lose Life of the Dragon" and you need to build it up in a minute or two. Also, you seem to pretend that Contre Sexte doesn't exist for the point of building your argument, which is 100% disingenuous.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Even Bard is more interesting, as you have to keep songs up, with Rain of Death being 15 seconds or a proc resetting it. Oh Mana cost a thing? Tp song.

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...you basically had bards informing you just how boring the rotation actually is, and you basically throw them out the window. okay.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Any class that has more then 3 moves, still outclasses Red Mage. I wouldn't mind Red Mage's Aoe costing more mana, If they actually got some.
Mana costs on Red Mage basically a non issue ever. Something to spend the Mana on, is fine by me.

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More skills =/= better. Occasionally, many of those skills prove to be utter garbage, like Blizzard II and more often than not, Sleep. Still, I wish we didn't have Tether and instead got Verwater and Verblizzard as AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Kinda the whole point of this was to show how little Aoe Red Mage has

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Little doesn't mean boring. Most classes uses only 3-4 skills during AoE pulls. No, no matter how much you insist, it takes way too long to get Life of the Dragon. Assuming you hit Jump, Spineshatter and Mirage Dive exactly right, it takes about 150 seconds to be able to use Nastrond and unless you're the only one doing the AoE dps, by that time most if not all the mobs are dead or close to being dead.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Even Bard is more interesting, as you have to keep songs up, with Rain of Death being 15 seconds or a proc resetting it. Oh Mana cost a thing? Tp song.

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Have you ever played bard at 70? Generally, songs used in AoE pulls are Ballad and Paeon with Ballad being the only one that will allow you to get a recast proc on Rain of Death/Bloodletter. If you consider applying DoTs to all mobs and hitting RoD whenever it procs is fun, sure. But once Ballad falls off and you swap to Paeon, have fun spamming Quick Nock.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

This is more about Blm's aoe arsenal in Aoe, with showing how strong it is, to show how deficient Red Mage Aoe is.

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You brought up OGCD buffs like Enochian and Ley Lines but you glossed over Embolden. Manafication allows you to reach that 90/90 mana sweetspot to use 3 Moulinets faster. Embolden, again, is always useful in AoE pulls unless you get a DRK and another caster dps.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Being tp hungry hardly matters in dungeons, when you will regen all of it back before the next pull. And Tp costs don't matter, as long as Skills such as Invigorate, Goad, Purification exist, Tp song exist.

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There has been plenty of stories, in the Tales of Duty Finder post, about bards/machinists who does not use any tp/mp song, melees without goad. Invigorate only adds an extra 3-4 gcd on its own and has a 120s cooldown. With how the dungeons are laid out in SB, most dungeons have 2-3 pulls in between bosses. You will not have Invigorate for every single pull.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

I want Red Mage aoe not to be sleep inducing.

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AoE pulls generally gets dealt with so quickly that if you're "falling asleep" while you're doing it, probably should log off and actually go to sleep.

Couldn't you just cycle thru your other skills while throwing in Scatter every so often so that its not boring... maybe?

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Legit haven't seen Blizzard 2 used since it was a cross skill and I had it on SMN.

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Haven't seen Blizzard 2 since ARR days lol. What's this Blizzard II anymore? Who still uses that in SB? >_>

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Couldn't you just cycle thru your other skills while throwing in Scatter every so often so that its not boring... maybe?

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That was already shot down. I guess they want confettis and a skill called pinata to beat enemies with :P

In all seriousness tho, I don't understand, people who main other classes are telling this person it's not great with their jobs either...but I guess the grass is greener.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

More skills =/= better. Occasionally, many of those skills prove to be utter garbage, like Blizzard II and more often than not, Sleep. Still, I wish we didn't have Tether and instead got Verwater and Verblizzard as AoEs.

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Small typo on my part. Sharpcast was what I meant to type instead of Surecast. Sharpcast guarantees that Thunder 4 Procs. No rng involved. Guarantee proc. So, about Thunder 4 RNG... Every time it's off cooldown, go ahead and enjoy Using that proc.

Also a few little things. You seem to think I'm talking about single target dps. When I in fact, talking about Aoe only. (And according to the Max tab of Ff logs on Savage Content, [URL="https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=100[/URL] Appears to be, OH LOOK. Samurai and Blm. Shocker. Was merely to showing a class that has a good numbers of Aoe. Like Thunder 4, Sharpcast, Umbral Hearts, Flare, Fire 2. And Looking at Blm being #2 on the spot, looks like it's in a good spot to me. Granted, everything can be made better. Any complaints about Blm are entirely valid, Just like How I dislike how lack Luster Red mage aoe is and how that valid that is.

Red Mage is great single target. No complaints. But when it comes to Aoes, Red Mage suddenly drops its whole gimmick. There is no White or black magic aoe spell. Only scatter. I would happily replace scatter and Tether for Verwater and verblizzard if they were different aoes. Ironic out f that long cast you agree with me. Switching back and forth between two Aoe spells would be much more interesting then casting Scatter non stop any time there are more then 4 adds.

Any class that has more then an Ogcd every 45 seconds, 3 Moulinets whenever you get the gauge for it, and Scatter spam is preferable to me over Red Mage. That includes Bard, as Rain of death is a 15 sec cooldown that can reset through a proc. Dragoon's don't like Nastrond for whatever reason, It's still more aoe then red mage has. And they use all of it. Whenever Dragonfire Dive get's it's cooldown lowered, or gives Dive ready, Most dragoon's complaints won't be a thing anymore.

Ok is the argument for more or is the argument for less boring (because they aren't mutually exclusive)? You seem to bounce quite around here. Yes, AOE is mainly boring for a lot of classes because any kind of repetition even if it has one more skill than what you're complaining about is generally boring. Dungeons run pretty scripted. At this point you're blaming the symptom as the cause.

Dungeons are mainly the cause of doing longer durations of AOE. So therefore dungeons are boring because it's the same old thing; for about everyone having to AOE.

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

Haven't seen Blizzard 2 since ARR days lol. What's this Blizzard II anymore? Who still uses that in SB? >_>

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Nobody in their right mind would use it as a BLM but it's useful on a SMN and SCH, except they can't use it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Small typo on my part. Sharpcast was what I meant to type instead of Surecast. Sharpcast guarantees that Thunder 4 Procs. No rng involved. Guarantee proc. So, about Thunder 4 RNG... Every time it's off cooldown, go ahead and enjoy Using that proc.

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Said guaranteed proc is once every minute... and still is part of the GCD, where as Contre Sexte can be linked after a spell.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Also a few little things. You seem to think I'm talking about single target dps. When I in fact, talking about Aoe only. (And according to the Max tab of Ff logs on Savage Content, [URL="https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=100[/URL] Appears to be, OH LOOK. Samurai and Blm. Shocker. Was merely to showing a class that has a good numbers of Aoe. Like Thunder 4, Sharpcast, Umbral Hearts, Flare, Fire 2. And Looking at Blm being #2 on the spot, looks like it's in a good spot to me. Granted, everything can be made better. Any complaints about Blm are entirely valid, Just like How I dislike how lack Luster Red mage aoe is and how that valid that is.

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And here's the thing. Black Mage's design is entirely to be a pure DPS (as is DRG). You'll notice that there's literally nothing in a BLM's native skill list that is designed to synergize with anyone else, nor are there any support options. Also, Fire II becomes utterly useless once you get the enhanced Umbral Hearts since there's no reason to NOT just turn Doubleflare into your whole AoE Fire rotation with a few Thunder IVs here and there.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Red Mage is great single target. No complaints. But when it comes to Aoes, Red Mage suddenly drops its whole gimmick. There is no White or black magic aoe spell. Only scatter. I would happily replace scatter and Tether for Verwater and verblizzard if they were different aoes. Ironic out f that long cast you agree with me. Switching back and forth between two Aoe spells would be much more interesting then casting Scatter non stop any time there are more then 4 adds.

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Yeah, I'm not gonna agree with removing scatter. Tether shouldn't have been added though and I can easily admit that having Verblizzard and Verwater would be nice. But there is no NEED for it. Red Mage's AoE game is fine. In fact, you don't even need to save your Moulinet for a rapid 3-use, you can expend them as often as you want. It only does need 30 Black and White per usage for 200 potency. Also, Red Mage is one of the only few DPSes who can safely ignore dropoff and still have 200 potency in a direct burst attack almost on command which is pretty damn powerful. And then there's the sheer damage potential of Scatter as well, which is also better than most other DPSes. oh yeah, and Contre Sext.

In fact, if Verblizzard and Verwater were added, I'd actually want them to maintain them having longer cast times to combo with Scatter. But again, what would be the point, beyond getting quicker Moulinets? Scatter and Moulinet are really all you need and are plenty sufficient for taking down most groups of mobs. Beyond "keeping the mechanic", it's really difficult justifying giving RDM Verblizzard and Verwater.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Any class that has more then an Ogcd every 45 seconds, 3 Moulinets whenever you get the gauge for it, and Scatter spam is preferable to me over Red Mage. That includes Bard, as Rain of death is a 15 sec cooldown that can reset through a proc. Dragoon's don't like Nastrond for whatever reason, It's still more aoe then red mage has. And they use all of it. Whenever Dragonfire Dive get's it's cooldown lowered, or gives Dive ready, Most dragoon's complaints won't be a thing anymore.

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Bard only has two AoEs, PERIOD, where as Red Mage actually has three. Any Bard can tell you that it's pretty damn boring spamming Quick Nock until you get Rain of Death is pretty boring, especially since you only get 100 potency per Rain of Death, and 110 for every Quick Nock.

As for Dragoon, you still functionally only have 3 AoEs. Doom Spike -> Sonic Thrust is still boring and hemorrhages their TP and is effectively the same button, you can only Dragonfire Dive every two minutes, Geirskogul got seriously nerfed and Nastrond is really boring and unfulfilling and is literally just a boosted Geirskogul but less impressive than it sounds. Like woo, you upgrade from 220 potency every 35s to 320 potency every 10s. Also your Life of the Dragon wastes away and this is the only real hoorah to goes into it. That boost that you've been building up to dies not with a roar... but with a whimper.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Nobody in their right mind would use it as a BLM but it's useful on a SMN and SCH, except they can't use it anymore.

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To be fair, SCH gained a far better replacement in Miasma 2 version 2, but SMN could use some AoE love. Wanna talk about a gimped and boring job for AoE? Look at poor, poor SMN, who lost much of their teeth in AoE.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Dungeons are mainly the cause of doing longer durations of AOE. So therefore dungeons are boring because it's the same old thing; for about everyone having to AOE.

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This. This. This.

Granted some classes have more/better AoE in their kit but in general, it's mostly just spamming 1-2 buttons.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Dragoon's don't like Nastrond for whatever reason, It's still more aoe then red mage has.

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It's not that Dragoons don't like Nastrond, it's that it takes a lot of time to actually get Life of the Dragon. Like I've said, if you use Jumps, Spineshatter Dive and Mirage Dive THE MOMENT they are off cooldown, it will take you at least 150 seconds to actually get Life of the Dragon during which you can use 3 or 4 Nastronds. In most cases where the other DPS isn't just standing to the side single targetting like a lemon, by the time you get Life of the Dragon, most if not all mobs are either dead or close to dying. Nastrond, despite the low cooldown on it's tooltip, is not this AoE beast Dragoons can use every single AoE pull like you're implying. If they can use it, they'll use it but when paired with a competent DPS who knows what they're doing, they rarely get to a point where they need it or even get to use it.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Whenever Dragonfire Dive get's it's cooldown lowered, or gives Dive ready, Most dragoon's complaints won't be a thing anymore.

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Dragonfire Dive as of now has lower potency and longer cooldown than Contre. Even if they do give Dive Ready, it will only shorten the time required to reach Life of the Dragon. Dragoons will still complaint about how Nastrond is just meh and how tight the window is.

As someone already said, BLM is designed to be just pure damage, was the AoE king in ARR, took a step back in HW but now they're back to being the AoE king. Other classes don't benefit anything of having a BLM except a caster with just high DPS. RDM on the other hand has Embolden, which you glossed over. Take that into account during AoE pulls especially when you are paired with a physical dps and a PLD/WAR.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

That includes Bard, as Rain of death is a 15 sec cooldown that can reset through a proc.

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Proc only happens when Ballad is up which is just 30 seconds, after which you are either using Paeon (faster Quick Nock spams with full Repertoire stacks) or Minuet (Pitch Perfect is available but it's single target so you're still doing Quick Nock spams for AoE). Rain of Death is 15s cooldown yes, but that's TWO skills that they're using for AoE. You're advocating for RDM to have more/interesting AoE skills but you're saying you prefer Bard who is only using TWO skills for AoEs, one of which is an OGCD that has a short cooldown so you're just pressing it more compared to Contre and the other is a Conal GCD. Like SE didn't even give bard the other AoE they had (idr the name) which is a longer ranged, circular aoe.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

To be fair, SCH gained a far better replacement in Miasma 2 version 2, but SMN could use some AoE love. Wanna talk about a gimped and boring job for AoE? Look at poor, poor SMN, who lost much of their teeth in AoE.

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I'm still upset to be honest. AoE as a SMN doesn't feel as satisfying anymore because of nerfs and the loss of 2 AoEs. I know SMN actually has a lot compared to others but it's very limited compared to what a BLM or a RDM can do.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

I'm still upset to be honest. AoE as a SMN doesn't feel as satisfying anymore because of nerfs and the loss of 2 AoEs. I know SMN actually has a lot compared to others but it's very limited compared to what a BLM or a RDM can do.

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They'll at least fix Bane, since everyone hates it in its current form. They may even buff Tri-Bind into something... not garbage. We'll see.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

That kinda misses the whole point. I want Red Mage aoe not to be sleep inducing. Kinda the whole point of this was to show how little Aoe Red Mage has, and make it more enjoyable then mindless scatter spam, while I wait a minute to use the only other aoes it has.

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But you also miss the point that really every other class is on the same level of boredom in aoe situations. Every class is basicaly spamming one skill and waiting for the other 1-2 to be ready again, doesn't matter if you have to fill up gages or just normal cd. Its all boring as hell. ;)

I think it fits Red Mage alot, Red Mage as a class is simple (boring to some), while other classes like Black Mage and Summoner are less simple, because you can be punished for making a mistake.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Said guaranteed proc is once every minute... and still is part of the GCD, where as Contre Sexte can be linked after a spell.

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Sharpcast works just like acceleration. You just pop it and you get a proc next cast. Making it great aoe. After you cast it, next thunder 4 is instant and costs no Mana.

Also... Scatter best dps out of the Gcds? It's 100 potency... Deathblossom 110. Doomspike 130, sonic thrust? 170 Quick Nock? 110 Fire 2 145 potency ish with astral fire. It's nowhere near the best. 200 potency in 2 gcds. It's nothing to right home about when most classes do more.

Scatter spam almost made me want to quit leveling RDM. Probably would have if not for the goddess title.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Legit haven't seen Blizzard 2 used since it was a cross skill and I had it on SMN.

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Eh, you can use it in Copperbell during Transpose CD or something, if you get a tank who pulls more than one pack. Gone are the glory days B2 + Flare rotation.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Said guaranteed proc is once every minute... and still is part of the GCD, where as Contre Sexte can be linked after a spell.

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It also does more damage than Scatter + Contre combined with full ticks and a lot more satisfying to use in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Also, Fire II becomes utterly useless once you get the enhanced Umbral Hearts since there's no reason to NOT just turn Doubleflare into your whole AoE Fire rotation with a few Thunder IVs here and there.

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PPS wise, Fire 2 is worth it at 6+ enemies and you drop Blizzard 4 completely at 9+ provided that Triple isn't up.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Also... Scatter best dps out of the Gcds? It's 100 potency... Deathblossom 110. Doomspike 130, sonic thrust? 170 Quick Nock? 110 Fire 2 145 potency ish with astral fire. It's nowhere near the best. 200 potency in 2 gcds. It's nothing to right home about when most classes do more.

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Scatter has the second lowest PPS of all your everyday AoE skills ahead of only MCH when they don't have bullets. I guess there's Tri-Bind and such, but yeah.

Mage weapons are about 30% stronger than PDPS weapons. The potency might be 100, but it still puts it ahead of almost every PDPS ability in that light, while maintaining no issues with TP, generally having a friendlier targeting system (AOE compared to lines, or PBAOE), and building up to an actual AOE finisher (Moulinet).

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

I want something to Supplement Red Mage's aoe. Not necessarily make it stonger, But definitely make it more interesting.

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Yet this discussion has gone to comparing the potency of RDM's AoE to other classes. Every other class is in the same boat minus BLM, SMN, SAM and NIN. It'll be 1-2 GCD skills whilst weaving in OGCDs, even if the OGCDs are single target. Then back to the same GCD skill spams until the other skills are off cooldown. Manafication, Acceleration, Embolden, Impact, Fleche, Contre Sixte, Corps-a-corps, Displacement, Scatter, Enchanted Moulinet. Even BLM uses roughly the same amount of skills, just the fact that they're designed to be the AoE king for caster dps doesn't make RDM's AoE "boring".

Also as many others have pointed out, Bards have less AoE skills than RDM.
Dragoons rarely ever get to a point where they can use Nastrond during AoE pulls unless the other DPS is just standing to the side looking pretty.
Monks wont use Perfect Balance if the pull is right before the boss, Arm of Destroyer is too TP hungry.
MCH's have Spreadshot while the others are ogcds with long cooldown (Ricochet is 100 less potency and 15s longer cooldown compared to Contre, Flamethrower is 1 minute, Hypercharge is 2 minutes, Bishop Overdrive is 2 minutes).
And these classes can and will run out of TP if it takes a long time to aoe the mobs down. TP song isn't always available, Goad is only available if there's a melee dps and that's if they bring goad and actually uses it, Invigorate isnt always useful when the cooldown is 120s.

Stop comparing RDM to BLM. Yea BLM has more AoE that deals more damage. But they don't get Dualcast + Veraise or Vercure for when shit hits the fan. They don't get Embolden to juice up party member's DPS. They don't get the mobility of RDM. They have nothing in their native skill tree that actually helps anyone else in any way while everyone else has at least some utility they bring (yes, even Monk).

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Originally Posted by AiharaMizuki

Yet this discussion has gone to comparing the potency of RDM's AoE to other classes.

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The reason for that, is that Red Mage's aoe is deficient in general. Not only in how moves are Aoe, But in the potency of them as well. They are lacking in every regard.

I'll refer you to this comment.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Scatter spam almost made me want to quit leveling RDM. Probably would have if not for the goddess title.

Scatter has the second lowest PPS of all your everyday AoE skills ahead of only MCH when they don't have bullets. I guess there's Tri-Bind and such, but yeah.

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And most of your points about all classes having boring Aoe is mute.
Samurai, Ninja, Blm, Smn, all have great Aoe. Dragoon Machinist and Monk have decent Aoe (4 moves+ each). It's a fact that most Dps roles have more and stronger Aoe. And that's more Aoe, while each class still have their specific OGcds.
The only class that's even in the same Area is bard. (Which is Ironic considering Bard Aoe used be to really good. R.I.P. Fire Arrow and Wide Volley). So in this regard, 7 out of the 8 other dps classes without a shadow of a doubt have Stronger, More interesting Aoe.

If Red Mage Aoe was strong, It would be different, It was interesting, it would be different.
Red Mage's whole Shtick is switching between White and Black Magic, and yet... While there are two versions of most spells, There's only scatter.