Boss Autoattack Damage and FFXIV's Tanking Meta

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

You didn't read my post.

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yes i did.

you know what I like about tanking in ff14? i like threat management. i like how threat is something to be managed. in other mmos, you can press any button at any time with no thought to management of threat at all and still hold aggro. it's trivial. in ff14, you are rewarded with more dps for dropping your threat-increasing stance. you have to use things like shirk and dps aggro drops. that's fun. maybe i'd like your idea if tank stance gave a 20% increase to threat generated rather than a 500% increase to threat generated.

I could care less about the so called tank meta. I rarely ever leave tank stance unless there are times when the boss is not attacking me for 10 secs or more. Why should I leave tank stance when the bosses auto attacks are hitting for a retarded amount of damage. Cool downs are reserved for boss mechanics or during large mob pulls.

If the Dev team wants to continue to put in dps checks then they need to put in game damage parsers for all players or remove the heavy hitting auto attacks. I refuse to put unnecessary stress on healers when stance dancing. The dev teams need to make up their minds... Just look at how they treat vit vs. str accessories... I love tanking but I refuse to fall in line with the current bs tank meta when the dev team can't give us in game parsers or make up their minds on accessories.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

I could care less about the so called tank meta. I rarely ever leave tank stance unless there are times when the boss is not attacking me for 10 secs or more. Why should I leave tank stance when the bosses auto attacks are hitting for a retarded amount of damage. Cool downs are reserved for boss mechanics or during large mob pulls.

If the Dev team wants to continue to put in dps checks then they need to put in game damage parsers for all players or remove the heavy hitting auto attacks. I refuse to put unnecessary stress on healers when stance dancing. The dev teams need to make up their minds... Just look at how they treat vit vs. str accessories... I love tanking but I refuse to fall in line with the current bs tank meta when the dev team can't give us in game parsers or make up their minds on accessories.

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If you're tanking dungeons, you can easily go into dps stance for bosses. They do very minimal damage with their autoattacks, and any cleaves they do are pretty easy to remember and mitigate for. Your healer isn't being unnecessarily stressed by this at all.

In savage, it more depends on the skill of your party. If your healers make bad decisions with their gcds or people are messing up mechanics/dying a lot, you might feel forced into tank stance. But If not, you can easily tank every savage fight in dps stance with smart usage of cds, and your healers will be just fine. It's not that hard.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

I could care less about the so called tank meta. I rarely ever leave tank stance unless there are times when the boss is not attacking me for 10 secs or more. Why should I leave tank stance when the bosses auto attacks are hitting for a retarded amount of damage. Cool downs are reserved for boss mechanics or during large mob pulls.

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honestly, auto attacks DON'T hit hard, though. as it is, both me and my co-tank really only use tank stance to generate threat at the pull (which we shouldn't, i'm aware, but whatever) and as it is our healers never actually directly cast heals on us in raids, unless a tankbuster has recently occurred..

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

honestly, auto attacks DON'T hit hard, though. as it is, both me and my co-tank re

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I try my best to tank in dps stance but it's hard pulling it off all fight. I just recently pugged susano ex for the first time in a while and his autos def do a ton of damage. In thus pug I changed to sword and of course I die to his autos despite mitigating the damage. I think people that always run in performed groups forget that in pugs if u mess up experimenting. It will end in a disband and lots of frustration. Se really designs things horribly.

While I don't play a tank very often, from what I've seen the developers seem hell-bent on diminishing what it is that makes a 'tank' a 'tank' Having to stay out of tank Stance whenever it's possible, frequent and powerful enmity buffs to all additional enmity abilities, having little options to actively defend the party with outside of Paladin's long-cooldown / gauge-linked abilities, being preoccupied with dealing damage rather than taking it.
Even when gearing up as a tank, you do so with maximising your DPS in mind, not with reducing the amount of damage you take, increasing your HP or enmity generation, or really anything that isn't damage output related. You take whichever gives the biggest DPS boost at the highest item level available or you're a bad tank. You don't even have many real options in terms of gearing. You either take the gear that increases your DPS or take nothing. Is a tank really a tank if all they do is focus on DPS but with higher HP than the rest of the party, and perhaps use defensive cooldowns in the same order at the same time for the same attack every single fight for the entirety of the game? The answer FFXIV gives is a resounding yes, but personally I strongly disagree

I had always assumed a 'tanks' focus was protecting their party members, utilising their abilities to increase their defences in creative and interesting ways and providing support through things like lowering enemy strength, crowd control, making good use of abilities with stopping power. Pressing a single button to literally make yourself invincible so you don't have to make any defence-related decisions isn't a very interesting or engaging way to have tanks deal with incoming toward them or their party members, but that's just me

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

If you're tanking dungeons, you can easily go into dps stance for bosses. They do very minimal damage with their autoattacks, and any cleaves they do are pretty easy to remember and mitigate for. Your healer isn't being unnecessarily stressed by this at all.

In savage, it more depends on the skill of your party. If your healers make bad decisions with their gcds or people are messing up mechanics/dying a lot, you might feel forced into tank stance. But If not, you can easily tank every savage fight in dps stance with smart usage of cds, and your healers will be just fine. It's not that hard.

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In DF I cant even count how many times my HP dropped below 30% while in tank stance due to auto attacks and if I wasn't in tank stance I would have died or I would be self healing way to often which would leave me vulnerable (low mp) during mechanics. In all honesty stance dancing should be reserved for tank swapping. It shouldn't be used for dps checks and all this other rubbish players are trying to do. Its annoying and nobody should be forced to stance dance unless its used for a specific purpose like tank swapping.

As I said before the dev team needs to create in-game parsers for all players that way dps can get better and actually beat dps checks. Tanks sole purpose in life is to be a meat shield and making sure the boss is positioned correctly during heavy mechanics and during phase changes. Outside of that is purely optional and should not be forced on anyone. If your team is not meeting dps checks then you need to look at your damage dealers to practice more or meld more materia to their gear.

If you still cant meet dps checks then the devs need to give us parsers and rework tanks damage so its inline with the current meta.

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

yes i did.

you know what I like about tanking in ff14? i like threat management. i like how threat is something to be managed. in other mmos, you can press any button at any time with no thought to management of threat at all and still hold aggro. it's trivial. in ff14, you are rewarded with more dps for dropping your threat-increasing stance. you have to use things like shirk and dps aggro drops. that's fun. maybe i'd like your idea if tank stance gave a 20% increase to threat generated rather than a 500% increase to threat generated.

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This answer just proves that you either didn't read my post, or didn't understand the idea behind it.

your two suggestions were:
1) delete defensive cooldowns so that we're forced to stance dance for tankbusters. of the two suggestions, it is the superior option. however, we could also just make it so that there are more tankbusters in a fight than cooldowns to mitigate them so that we'd be forced to use tank stance as a mitigation tool for some of them, or make tankbusters hit hard enough that cooldowns alone arent enough. i could live with my alteration to your suggestion and enjoy it.
2) delete tank stance and rename dps stance to tank stance and add a weaker threat modifier on top of a damage taken reduction to it. this suggestion is terrible because in reality low-skill and low-gear tanks use tank stance a lot to compensate. it also gives up on the idea of ever having stance dancing again, which is an incredibly satisfying mechanic for tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

it also gives up on the idea of ever having stance dancing again, which is an incredibly satisfying mechanic for tanks.

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for you who are a warrior and you stances are desing to do that yes, for a DRK is a pain in the ass stance dancing, and for paladins the same, i always love tanks roles bcs all the support and leadership they offer, the feeling im making everyone life easy is more satisfying for me that the most big number you can archive with a fell cleave or whatever and the actual meta is killing that for me bcs im forcing 7 members to work more harder for my personal dps.

for the second point frey dont really say delete tank stance, just remove the damage penalty thats all (and yes ogfc but i think with only damage penalty and mp cost with be enough), in case of WAR you can remove damage penalty and time recast penalty and you will still have tank how tank stance to dealt they job, every one wins, PLD and DRK will no longer get in to the need to imitate WAR with her clunky tank stances to archive the maximun dps with i think is the only real solution to fix the tank stance problem.

the only job with more problems will be paladin bcs we cant do anything with sword oath and i dont think SE want to delete it, probably make it able to use it with shield but thats how is DRK so idk.

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Originally Posted by shao32

for you who are a warrior and you stances are desing to do that yes, for a DRK is a pain in the ass stance dancing

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I'm a DRK main.

stance dancing is more fun on WAR than DRK, but I still enjoy dropping grit.

I personally feel stance dancing should be a thing since it's what brings some level of kills to tanks, tank combos aren't nesesarily hard or even close to a dps yet we don't have the healer preasure of keeping the pt alive. Stance dancing is fun and really sets a bar that if we take it out I see lot's of potential tanks switching to dps not because they only like to dps but because they don't like oversimplified mechanincs.

How to fix tank stance: IMO
-While it might take some work from the dev team and I doubt they will ever do anything like this, I think to fix tank stance we need to make aggro generation only possible with tank stance and make it harder to maintain (on bosses) that way it becomes a a choice of how much aggro we sacrifice for extra damage, build up aggro, spend some while increasing dps and back to aggro, that way it's more of a tank maagement not only on cooldowns and shuch but actually tanking make the boss notice you. ofcourse this will imply that tanks will require more skill and management will also make the devs make yet another overhaul of the system and make it more complex whichh is the opposite of their idea behind the recent changes.

Additionally They could make it so Tenasity also increases aggro generation, which since foreve I though it should've been an actual stat and not some passive ability, so now the gearing becomes a min/maxing between how much aggro/defense you want to generate vs how much damage you want to generate.

to me this is how tanking should work. unfortunately if it wasn't obvious this requires a lot of work. so so far we are stuck with the current meta witch well, it's ot so bad, a bit tooo focused on dps but is still fun.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

In DF I cant even count how many times my HP dropped below 30% while in tank stance due to auto attacks and if I wasn't in tank stance I would have died or I would be self healing way to often which would leave me vulnerable (low mp) during mechanics. In all honesty stance dancing should be reserved for tank swapping. It shouldn't be used for dps checks and all this other rubbish players are trying to do. Its annoying and nobody should be forced to stance dance unless its used for a specific purpose like tank swapping.

As I said before the dev team needs to create in-game parsers for all players that way dps can get better and actually beat dps checks. Tanks sole purpose in life is to be a meat shield and making sure the boss is positioned correctly during heavy mechanics and during phase changes. Outside of that is purely optional and should not be forced on anyone. If your team is not meeting dps checks then you need to look at your damage dealers to practice more or meld more materia to their gear.

If you still cant meet dps checks then the devs need to give us parsers and rework tanks damage so its inline with the current meta.

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Unfortunately, how you think things should be isn't how things actually are. This game's tanking meta is designed so that, if you have smart and efficient cd usage combined with coordinated efforts with your healers, then you can spend all fights in dps stance. A lot of it relies on teamwork. Like I said, good tank dps relies on good healer decisions, and vice versa. It's a team effort, in a team-based game. It's fun to see how far you can push your raid dps.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

Additionally They could make it so Tenasity also increases aggro generation, which since foreve I though it should've been an actual stat and not some passive ability, so now the gearing becomes a min/maxing between how much aggro/defense you want to generate vs how much damage you want to generate.

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every stat increases aggro generation to some greater or lesser degree.

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

every stat increases aggro generation to some greater or lesser degree.

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yeah but I mean on a actual meaninful way, right now aggro generation is something you can't even see numbers off all you see is a bar filling up there's no direct way of increasing aggro generation i just multiplies depending on how much damage you do and multiplicative modifiers they add on abilities. I meant it as If aggro was an actuall thing to manage think of healers and health bars we need to make sure we deal enough aggro before our aggro bar drops as if it was a health bar to maintain aggro during fights. as it stands aggro managemen is so easy for me it's the main reason tank stamce sucks ass at this moment.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

yeah but I mean on a actual meaninful way, right now aggro generation is something you can't even see numbers off all you see is a bar filling up there's no direct way of increasing aggro generation i just multiplies depending on how much damage you do and multiplicative modifiers they add on abilities. I meant it as If aggro was an actuall thing to manage think of healers and health bars we need to make sure we deal enough aggro before our aggro bar drops as if it was a health bar to maintain aggro during fights. as it stands aggro managemen is so easy for me it's the main reason tank stamce sucks ass at this moment.

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what

aggro management being easy isnt the reason tank stance sucks. the reason it sucks is because it reduces DPS. a theoretical threat stat would either be mandatory or 100% useless depending on implementation and neither option is good.

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

what

aggro management being easy isnt the reason tank stance sucks. the reason it sucks is because it reduces DPS. a theoretical threat stat would either be mandatory or 100% useless depending on implementation and neither option is good.

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Not only. Tank stances are a failure because they reduce way more dps than they give benefits. The more expansion passes, the more dps you loose for a mere 20%ehp gain, as they bake more and more things into dps stances. If during arr you lost less than 20%dps as a warrior in tank stance due to ib compensating, now you loose what, 30, 35 or even 40% dps by going into defiance ?

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

I think to fix tank stance we need to make aggro generation only possible with tank stance and make it harder to maintain (on bosses)

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The thing is, aggro in this came is directly calculated from the amount of damage that you do. In general:
1 point damage = 1 point aggro
2 points healing = 1 point aggro

Tanks mainly hold aggro because of aggro modifiers, meaning that certain attacks generate more aggro than damage (e.g. Unmend generates 5 times as much aggro as it does damage).
At the moment, we mostly generate loads of aggro at the beginning of the fight in our opener, then switch over to our DPS rotation. The headstart we generate in aggro is usually enough to keep the boss focussed on the tanks for the duration of the fight (it might require lots of use on diversion depending on the boss' HP, shirk and lucid dream, but it is definitely worth it)

What you are proposing would mean a huge disparaty between tank and damage dealer DPS, or a complete rework of how aggro works in this game, both which are hardly desireable imho.

The thing is that I like stance dancing. A lot. But in my post I also said that it has become completely braindead and I explain why. We don't stance dance anymore, we just go all-out DPS stance all the time because our defensive CDs and healers' oGCDs are far enough to survive everything without having to sacrifice DPS. We just activate tanking stance in two scenarios : 1. When we are still learning brand-new raid tier fights, which is only for a short time before we start optimizing DPS again, 2. When people start fucking up mechanics and healers need some extra safety. This wasn't the case in ARR because we had fewer defensive tools and healers had less powerful oGCD heals.

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

2) delete tank stance and rename dps stance to tank stance and add a weaker threat modifier on top of a damage taken reduction to it. this suggestion is terrible because in reality low-skill and low-gear tanks use tank stance a lot to compensate. it also gives up on the idea of ever having stance dancing again, which is an incredibly satisfying mechanic for tanks.

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I made this suggestion with the intent of making the current DPS-stance tank gameplay the default gameplay for both stances, thus reducing the aggro generation and increasing incoming damage so that our tank duties are still a bit challenging while in tanking stance, unlike how it is right now (tanking stance is basically easy mode). The only part where I agree with you here is about low-skill tanks. Low-gear doesn't matter unless they are violently undergeared (like a level 69 tank still wearing level 60 idyllshire gear, and in that case just put an ilvl restriction to levelling dungeons too.). Low-skill tanks who are constantly in tanking stance as of right now would have a hard time adjusting to my suggestion because it's basically just like being in DPS stance all the time, but I think that tanking shouldn't be such a braindead task; you have 69 levels to learn how to use your mitigation skills and manage aggro properly, but the tanking stance is the exact reason why we see level 70 tanks who never use any CD. My suggestion would force them to learn how to be a good tank, since they'd have to press buttons to mitigate damage instead of just sitting in tanking stance all the time. I don't think that it's a bad thing. It would not reduce the population of people who actually main tanks because they enjoy the tanking duty in MMOs, it might just reduce the amount of lazy players who just occasionally play a tank as their second or third job just to proc queues faster.

I also said this towards the end of my original post :

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

That way, they could also focus on adding complexity to how tanks play by other means without having to bother with the different stances.

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It would require an expansion, but I think that they can totally bring an interesting amount of complexity to the tanks with other means. Stance-dancing is not the only way, and as I said numerous times before and in my original post as well, right now it's only a shadow of what it used to be anyway. It's no longer as interesting as it was. Tanks and healers are too powerful defensively.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

I personally feel stance dancing should be a thing since it's what brings some level of kills to tanks

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the real thing is compared to WAR, PLD and DRK dont change at all when you drop shield/grit, on PLD is the same in both sides and DRK only change the mp generation a bit and DA priority on bloodspiller, there is no skill involved there, you just drop you tank stance and make everyone live more harder for a personal/raid dps gain, WAR in the other hand yes they take benefic from stance dancing, and still is somehow clunky bcs the damage penalty and ppl avoid all the time they can defiance.

so for my part change stance dances to make you stay on it at least on PLD and DRK will dont change anything on our gameplay and all those coments about "it will be boring" or "low skilled players will be like me" are just poor excuses without any weight on the real matter, on WAR on other hand at the nature of they stance desing will make swaping betwen defiance-deliverance much more active and become a real stance dance tank bcs they will never have to fear to suffer a damage penalty to use equilibrium and inner beast.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

It would not reduce the population of people who actually main tanks because they enjoy the tanking duty in MMOs

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i belive the actual meta and the rude actitude against every tank how use tank stance much make many quit the role that anything else, so im complety agree on any change they made to never have to choise betwen pasive defense vs extra damage it will be welcome, we will no longer have to face fights in the comunity for tanking styles, just how bad its this tank for his own skill.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

I made this suggestion with the intent of making the current DPS-stance tank gameplay the default gameplay for both stances, thus reducing the aggro generation and increasing incoming damage so that our tank duties are still a bit challenging while in tanking stance, unlike how it is right now (tanking stance is basically easy mode).

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that's the thing: it is easy mode. it exists to shove low-skill players through content. it's not an optimal play, and the optimal way of playing is harder, but it is an option for lower skill players.

ive been tanking since 2004 and i have seen continuous changes to how tanks are build that have progressively made tanking more and more streamlined, more dull, more dumbed-down so that even the absolute most dense moron can win as a tank.

(more below, apparently there's a 1000 character limit)

(post 2, thx se for terrifying character limit)
in 2004, tanks did such low threat that it was standard practice for DPS to intentionally throttle themselves so as to not pull aggro off of the tank. literally you were expected to stop casting until the tank had established enough threat for you to continue dpsing. as a result, if you had ever met a tank for whom you did not have to throttle your dps--a tank who, say, had read through 90 pages of MATLAB graphs and had min-maxed to the absolute edge of optimizing their class--you wanted to marry them.

it was great because back then there were so many weird little ways of optimizing your character that you kinda had to be a math major to really get the most out of your tank.

(post 3)
so while tanking in dps stance isn't as challenging as tactically deciding when you can and can't drop into dps stance based on changing damage income, in my mind, it's more challenging than merely going into tank stance, and i cannot imagine SE EVER offering anything more challenging than just cutting out DPS stance and leaving tank stance as it is, because I have seen the tank meta gutted in MMOs in the name of accessibility too many times to have that much hope.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

I think that they can totally bring an interesting amount of complexity to the tanks with other means.

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Yeah, but do you have any specific examples of how they could do that?

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

(more below, apparently there's a 1000 character limit)

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Edit you post after making it. No text limit.

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

Yeah, but do you have any specific examples of how they could do that?

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Right off the bat, no, I don't, and I'm no game developper. But they could for example reduce the amount of passive mitigation we have and replace it with more active mitigation. Tie it to the specific mechanics of each tank. Mitigating damage should feel as engaging as dealing damage. Same for aggro. They could also make tanks' DPS rotations more complex, harder to optimize. They could do all of that without altering the skill floor too much. What I'd like (and I know I'm not alone) is a higher skill ceiling.
Maybe my suggestions aren't the best way. But again, I'm no game developer, I'm just sharing my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Right off the bat, no, I don't, and I'm no game developper. But they could for example reduce the amount of passive mitigation we have and replace it with more active mitigation. Tie it to the specific mechanics of each tank. Mitigating damage should feel as engaging as dealing damage. Same for aggro. They could also make tanks' DPS rotations more complex, harder to optimize. They could do all of that without altering the skill floor too much. What I'd like (and I know I'm not alone) is a higher skill ceiling.
Maybe my suggestions aren't the best way. But again, I'm no game developer, I'm just sharing my opinion.

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well, wow has active mitigation. i'd definitely say that ff14's tank meta has a higher skill ceiling by a LONG shot.

edit for clarification: just for how a tank is played. for all other aspects of the game, wow is the more challenging option.

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

well, wow has active mitigation. i'd definitely say that ff14's tank meta has a higher skill ceiling by a LONG shot.

edit for clarification: just for how a tank is played. for all other aspects of the game, wow is the more challenging option.

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Yes I know. I used to play WoW in the past and I played plenty of other MMOs. FF14 is by far the easiest to tank (only speaking about the basic tank duties here, so aggro + mitigation, nothing else).

Edit : About WoW, I'll just add that last time I played it was near the release of Cataclysm, so my experience is quite old old old. I'm pretty sure everything has changed since then.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Yes I know. I used to play WoW in the past and I played plenty of other MMOs. FF14 is by far the easiest to tank (only speaking about the basic tank duties here, so aggro + mitigation, nothing else).

Edit : About WoW, I'll just add that last time I played it was near the release of Cataclysm, so my experience is quite old old old. I'm pretty sure everything has changed since then.

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mists of pandaria was the expansion where active mitigation as a feature was implemented. in short, all they did was make the tanks squisher and give them 1-3 buffs to maintain that make them less squishy. the problem i had with the system was that the requirement to get maximum benefit from the 1-3 buffs was absolutely minimal (e.g. press shield block once every ~10 seconds)

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

mists of pandaria was the expansion where active mitigation as a feature was implemented. in short, all they did was make the tanks squisher and give them 1-3 buffs to maintain that make them less squishy. the problem i had with the system was that the requirement to get maximum benefit from the 1-3 buffs was absolutely minimal (e.g. press shield block once every ~10 seconds)

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isn't that what ff14 is ?

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

isn't that what ff14 is ?

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in ff14 you have the option of going into DPS stance, where you take more damage and do less threat, but are rewarded with more dps. in wow, no such option exists. you just kinda sit there and it doesn't really matter that much what order you press your buttons in because you'll still have aggro anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

in ff14 you have the option of going into DPS stance, where you take more damage and do less threat, but are rewarded with more dps. in wow, no such option exists. you just kinda sit there and it doesn't really matter that much what order you press your buttons in because you'll still have aggro anyway.

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sounds to me then that ff14 is doing it righ then. you mention that the damage penalty is what makes tank stance bad, then what do you want? do you want ff14 become wow mindless tanking? I do like that we have a dps penalty while a bit too much I do like the trade off. so what do you sugest will imporve tank stance beside taking off the damage penalty.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

sounds to me then that ff14 is doing it righ then. you mention that the damage penalty is what makes tank stance bad, then what do you want? do you want ff14 become wow mindless tanking? I do like that we have a dps penalty while a bit too much I do like the trade off. so what do you sugest will imporve tank stance beside taking off the damage penalty.

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nothing, i think it's fine. the only change i might make would be to maybe make it so that there are too many tankbusters for cooldowns to be enough such that players are encouraged to use tank stance to absorb some tank busters.

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

snip

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Ir Will be complety imposible, the amount of actual cds we have its so big that we never run out of colddowns with proper tank swap unleash you want the boses focus on dealt tank busters every 10 seconds or less, for no mention when we get more gear the little value the tank stance get (if it get some) will be get down again.

DPS stance Will be always have priority over tank stance unleash you buff the tank stance in a way there is imposible to survive or hold agro without it, adding more tank busters dont solve nothing.

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Originally Posted by shao32

Ir Will be complety imposible, the amount of actual cds we have its so big that we never run out of colddowns with proper tank swap unleash you want the boses focus on dealt tank busters every 10 seconds or less, for no mention when we get more gear the little value the tank stance get (if it get some) will be get down again.

DPS stance Will be always have priority over tank stance unleash you buff the tank stance in a way there is imposible to survive or hold agro without it, adding more tank busters dont solve nothing.

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could make tankbusters hit harder instead

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Originally Posted by Kerrath

could make tankbusters hit harder instead

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Been discussed before, how many tanks actually even use proper CDs on tank busters? You are basically gating contents from these people. I know a lot of tanks raiding atm aren't doing their CD assignment well, some don't even use CDs for whatever reasons.

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Originally Posted by shao32

DPS stance Will be always have priority over tank stance unleash you buff the tank stance in a way there is imposible to survive or hold agro without it, adding more tank busters dont solve nothing.

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Same thing as mentioned. You are going to deal with less tanks around, you can't really balance contents based on the hardcore community because they are the main reason why tanking in DPS stance is so popular. You want your game to be popular, you cater to the casual/midcore needs. That's simple business. Not all tanks in DPS stance can even do 80%++ (FFLogs) as well, it's not the game's fault that the players aren't optimizing themselves.

Shirk is the main offender for enmity generation, this single skill is so broken that you never have to worry about aggro that even to the point of not entering tank stance for pulling. Double Shirking is way too powerful.

Edit: This is not just to target 'MTs' that refuse to go DPS stance. Like I can nitpick about OTs doing less dps than their MTs, you can't blame anything else if your dps is lower than MT. You as the OT should be doing more DPS. Why are you even in the OT position if you gonna get outdps-ed by your MT? You aren't optimizing and that's not helping you and your team to be better.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

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yep thats why any change on tank stances buffing defense or whatever or bosses desing on dealt much more damage will never work on fixing the tank stances.

the only way to make tanking in tank stance popular again is reducing the penalitations or adding mechanics to avoid complety the damage penalty and being able to dealt more or less the same dps in both positions, or something similar on that part, bcs i doubt complety ppl will stay quiet if SE made us face the pentaltys all the time we are in MT, insert here stance dance penalties 4.0

i say its clear idk why all tanks have to have to stance dance, is hilarious who some complaing about homogeniazion and the comunity is the responsable of the one how is pretty unfair in 2 of the tanks.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

tsk...the meta never bothers me.....if my hp is lower than 50% during autoattack, the party can enjoy full time tank stance no matter what tank I play, in 4 men, 8 men, raids etc.

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Same. if tanks can't MT in tank stance something is very wrong with the meta.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Same. if tanks can't MT in tank stance something is very wrong with the meta.

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If you want the meta to change, get a job at SE and change the game. Until you do that, we know what the optimized strat is, and ignoring it on some weird principle is asinine.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Same. if tanks can't MT in tank stance something is very wrong with the meta.

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Meta is based on what's optimal given the situation in the game, it can't really be wrong. You don't like it? It's fine, but it doesn't make your "non-meta" playstyle optimal.

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Originally Posted by shao32

the only way to make tanking in tank stance popular again is reducing the penalitations or adding mechanics to avoid complety the damage penanlty.

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Another option is to put a mitigation penalty in DPS stance. Dps stance is low cost, high reward.
Make it high cost, high reward and we may have much more incentive to go tank stance (like old cleric stance).

It could be in the form of reduced healing received and/or reduced enmity generation. I don't think it's good to be able to comfortably tank with 100% dps stance uptime because there's no meaningful decision behind it.
I'd find it much more interesting to have to carefully plan our stance dancing rather than dps stance all the way.