Am I the only one who finds healing expert being a lot more relaxing than going in as DPS? I guess remembering to look at party health can be hard.Quote:
Healers have it hard with having to both DPS and heal.
Lessee, on my WHM I have two buttons for AoE and three for single target. One of those is shared between the two are dots for a grand total of four DPS skills. That's pretty much as single button spam as it can get in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
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08-26-2017, 05:14 PMWaliel
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08-26-2017, 05:14 PMMoroMurasakiI agree to an extent. I do think if you are doing a dungeon that a party of healers or a party of tanks would still be able to complete more content than a party of DPS. Don't get me wrong I love having DPS around, faster clears and all, but I don't think all roles are fully equal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleczan
Personally I've 4 WHM'd a lot of the 50 dungeons, it's been a while but it's probably still very doable. Tanks without Clemency and DPS without Vercure wouldn't really have a chance at I don't think.
I agree all roles are important but ultimately I feel like a party without a healer is at the largest disadvantage. Do I think this means healers deserve anything special? No, of course not, but it definitely means they're integral to the success of the group. -
08-26-2017, 05:14 PMValinisIt's not an opinion. This person is arguing that a job is easy because they are playing it lazily. By the same logic I can claim that every single DPS is extremely easy because all I have to do is push one button. Do you think I'd be a very good DPS?Quote:
Originally Posted by Miste
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08-26-2017, 05:14 PMAnienai
I only comm Roes.
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08-26-2017, 05:21 PMMoroMurasakiI agree healing is easier for me, though I think that has a lot more to deal with running with tanks I know than the actual ease of content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waliel
In terms of WHM DPS while it can be simple I don't relegate it to Stone, Aeros and Holy - PoM, Thin Air, Swiftcast and Lucid are also almost exclusively used for my DPS in 4man, in 8man the only difference is I usually leave Swiftcast for raises.
Not a huge bump in complication but it is definitely not 4 buttons.
Edit: And Cleric! Wow, can't believe I forgot that. -
08-26-2017, 05:24 PMalimdiaNo, you're reading what you want to read and ignoring everything else, healer dps rotations have zero complexity, throw two dots and spam single target skill on bosses, spread dots and spam aoe skill on mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
You definitely would earn mine, but there's no universal reason to commend someone, everyone has their own reasons, some people don't care about performance and commend someone who was friendly or chatty, or fellow dps, or good glamour, the reasons are endless and equally valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
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08-26-2017, 05:25 PMMisteYou are just making assumptions about them. You already tried to claim they don't DPS on healer and she corrected you that she never said she doesn't. So where are you getting this information that they are playing lazily? They aren't even on the same data center as you for you to play with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
Also if you want another opinion, I heal and DPS on healer etc and I do not find healer difficult. I find it easy even with DPSing. That is just my opinion on it.
I find DPS jobs harder to master for me personally, so yes it is an opinion. Some people grasp certain roles or jobs easier than others it all depends on the person. My boyfriend can play DRG very well for example, but when I try to play it I am pants on head derp, for some reason that job makes me ADHD and heck if I know why, but I can play BLM quite well while my boyfriend isn't quite as good at it.
So yeah...just relax a bit eh? Don't need to go over the deep end over this. -
08-26-2017, 05:28 PMMoroMurasakiOh for sure! Lots of times my commendation goes to someone who was funny or had a great glamor. I don't think it's ever fair to expect one but I also think there are certainly times when we all do expect them anyways if we are being honest with ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by alimdia
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08-26-2017, 05:31 PMMoroMurasakiMiste I'm always happy when you're in a thread, you help calm things down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miste
Stay awesome! <3 -
08-26-2017, 05:32 PMHyoMinParkThat comment is completely unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
All alimdia is saying is that DPS rotations are far more complex than healer rotations, which are generally a DoT application, and then spamming one button (Stone/Malefic/Broil) until they have to either 1. heal the tank or a party member, or 2. reapply the DoT. By comparison, DPS have far more buttons to press, and some rotations can be particularly punishing if you mess up (it's my understanding that current SMN falls into this category). Not that they just spam a singular button to DPS.
With regards to the topic, I commend whomever I feel like commending. Sometimes, I don't commend anyone. I don't think that one role is particularly more deserving of commendations over another, and if someone has a "Thank you for the party! Commend me!" macro, I go out of my way NOT to commend them. You earn commendations; you don't demand them. -
08-26-2017, 05:36 PMValinisDPSing using one skill is lazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miste
That's great that you find healing easier than DPSing. That's your opinion. I don't agree with your opinion but for some reason I'm not allowed to defend mine?Quote:
Originally Posted by Miste
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08-26-2017, 05:40 PMMoroMurasakiI don't think she has an issue with you defending your opinion, more just with the disrespectful way you've expressed it. If you went about posing the same ideas without insinuating that a specific player you don't know is bad at their job I doubt it would be an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
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08-26-2017, 05:44 PMHyoMinParkYou can defend your opinion without resorting to personal insults.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
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08-26-2017, 05:51 PMAleczanTotally agree here.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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08-26-2017, 06:14 PMMisteAST only has 3 readily available direct DPS spells or DoTs....Gravity, Combust II, and Malefic III. Lord of Crowns is RNG and normally in a dungeon unless you pulled an Ewer or Spire then you might not minor arcana; since you cannot have it 100% of the time I wouldn't take it into account for every pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
On an AoE pull with a lot of mobs....you spam Gravity. One DPS spell. If earthly star is up you can use it too but it is oGCD and you pretty much only need to use it once then back to spamming one button. 99% of the DPS spell usage was one button I would say that nullifies the one oGCD ES to being pretty much inconsequential because most of the time you literally are just spamming one button until healing is needed.
As for WHM yes they have Aero III and Assize, but it is cast once then spam Holy....I mean basically most of your button presses in an AoE pull are just one button and that was the point I believe. Not that you ONLY press one button ever, just that it is the majority of your button presses for AoE pulls as the other spells you might use are one cast/one press then you just press the same button over and over for max AoE DPS afterwards.
Moro and HyoMin answered this quite nicely already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
Thank you D:Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
I try, but I am not perfect either. I've had some moments where I get a bit cheeky as well. It happens. -
08-26-2017, 06:39 PMAltenaThat's literally how healer DPS works...Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
If single target -
Toss on your DoT & spam your 1 single target nuke...
If AoE -
Drop your AoE DoT then go back to spamming 1 nuke...
Except earlier.....Quote:
That's great that you find healing easier than DPSing. That's your opinion. I don't agree with your opinion but for some reason I'm not allowed to defend mine?
People are putting you in your place. If you can't take it then don't dish it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
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08-26-2017, 06:45 PMArcaviusGreyasheThis guy is the true hero of this thread tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anienai
I think they (tanks and heals) feel more entitled to comms because they actually have to compose with what the other players are doing. I mean, I do feel like most tanks and heals know how to do their basic job, and I rarely see a tank that's not getting enough enmity, or a healer that can't heal, even on a power pull, but I do see lots of DPS that do... strange things. Like single targeting on a pack of 10, or doing the same combo again and again, which can be frustrating to see. Plus, heals and tanks are "enemies" for a reason I don't understand, in most cases (cf. the pregen thread, or the complaints on tanks not using CDs that sometimes come up).
I don't think that's an absolute reality, don't get me wrong, I think there are as much bad DPS as there are bad tanks and bad heals, but as a DPS, I think you're less aware of what's going on in the party, and, if you're already grumpy when you enter the dungeon as tank or heal, it's more than likely that you'll end up thinking "ermagerd, those people are sooooooooooooooo bad" with that bitchy voice we all have in our head from time to time, and thus, we HAVE to receive those comms, because we deserve it. Or, at least, so it seems.
Ok, those were my 2 cents, see ya \o/ -
08-26-2017, 06:58 PMAniond
People care about commendations?
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08-26-2017, 07:18 PMSpiroglyph
Shouldn't commend people for playing a role, that's kind of assuming they're doing you a favor when all they're doing is queuing as something they WISHED to queue as. It's doing yourself a disservice and the other players as well, who might be putting in a lot more effort than the healer.
This is why commendations matter so little for me :/ some people think they should get them for little else than playing a certain job, others throw them at random, etc. Who cares lmao. -
08-26-2017, 08:25 PMBillyKaplanGotta get that parade chocobo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aniond
On a more serious note, it's a pre-requisite to becoming a Mentor, so some people might care because of that. -
08-26-2017, 08:27 PMPellsThis sounds like using two skills, not one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altena
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08-26-2017, 09:00 PMxLucia
I personally give commendations to people whom I think deserve it. If someone played really well I'd comm them (regardless of role). And that's how it should be. I do have to admit though that I've had situations where I saved the day as a healer, because the 2nd healer plainly sucked and died all the time. And in the end I got no comms at all for keeping everyone alive on my own. That does make me a bit sad. But entitled? No I'm not.
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08-26-2017, 09:28 PMMavriasIt's a different play style than dpsing sure, but not inherently more difficult. And you'd wipe without dps players too, unless you enjoy pulling one pack at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valinis
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08-26-2017, 09:34 PMArrius
Still wished we could give more commendations than one.
When you got that setup with the right people and strategy, making that run quite pleasant - Then you can only give out a single one.
It makes me sad. -
08-26-2017, 10:10 PMloreleidiangeloBy all means, let's resort to pedantry because some people can't handle the truth that their role is not inherently more difficult than any other role at a purely objective level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pells
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08-26-2017, 10:38 PMAylis
As a healer, my stance on getting commendations has always been...
If I get one. Great! Awesome!
If I don't get one. Lets just say I'm not gonna lose any sleep or scream over it.
I've never really worried ever over gold star "you dun good!" stickers in my life, lol -
08-26-2017, 10:48 PMPellsHealing dps is simple, but it's not one-button simple. Why lie about it, and then stick to the lie when called on it?Quote:
Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo
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08-26-2017, 10:51 PMloreleidiangeloWhy be pedantic when the actual spirit of the argument is correct? The actual DPS element of a healer is simple; perceived complexity comes usually from juggling other aspects like healing and mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pells
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08-26-2017, 10:57 PMVidu
We had a post recently in the DF-story-thread from a DPS-player being all upset because they didnt got commendations at the end of runs - they claimed that it would be an unspoken rule that DPS commends the other DPS, since healer and tank doing the same (aka: commending each other). That person felt entitled to those commendations because of their role as much as the healer in OPs example.
Personally my conclusion is: Its not that specific roles are feeling entitled to commendations - its people, despite their role, feeling entitled to them.
About reasons one can only speculate...
To be fair: Sometimes I am a little "upset" when I feel I did a good job in that run - if thats as tank, healer or dps (damnit, I'm a good bard, using all my support skills!) - but I'd never feel entitled to getting commendations. And personally I dont need them to know that I played well or anything. -
08-26-2017, 10:59 PMPaladinleedsTo be fair, outside of throwing the 2 dots up, it pretty much is single-button simple. Whereas DPS have rotations and procs to worry about. I'm going to use single target as the example here, everything is simplified on AoE from what I can tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pells
For example BLM (which I believe is the simplest DPS to play)... I'm probably playing this wrong but hey whatever, I'll use it as an example: Blizzard 3, Enochian, Ley Lines, Blizzard 4, Thunder 3, Fire 3, Fire 4, Fire 4, Fire 4, Fire, Fire 3 (if Firestarter procced), continue using Fire 1/3/4 spells in order listed previously until out of mana (using Thunder 3 whenever thundercloud procs), then back to the beginning (sans Enochian/Ley Lines, when LL are down, only chain 2 F4 together, not 3). note: I've not listed Foul here as I'm not yet 70 BLM, bear that in mind
Compared to WHM: Heals/shields when needed (Usually Cure 1/2, or oGCD abilities, very little needing doing in an ideal run though for the most part), else Aero 3, Aero 2, Stone 4 ad infinitum (continue until Aeros need reapplying), Assize on cooldown for mana and a little burst.
Bear in mind, I'm not talking perfect play here, just OK play that meets the DF average. -
08-26-2017, 10:59 PMBillyKaplanYou're talking about a preference in play-style which honestly is besides the point for this debate, and is in fact how a lot of places are designed to be played, unless you like wiping all the time even with Benediction and Hallowed Ground just because those pulls weren't meant to be paired together and your tank is actually on-level with gear but think they're ilvl 320 or something. HI BARDAM'S METTLE HOW ARE YOU DOING TODAY. Yes, dps are required. Yes, we have things called dps checks. And good dps can make things easier on the healers and tanks if they kill things fast enough. No one is contending these points. But there's making things easier in a situation you willingly got yourself into, and the basic requirements of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrias
But when dps split agro because they can't even follow a tank's numbers, but the tank still holds agro, or keeps alive on their own because the healer needs to heal dps who messed mechanics - it's tanking being a more difficult job than DPS by definition.
When dps get stuck in animation locks in the middle of a telegraph, backflip off the platform, or really like their ley lines too much, it's up to the healer to pick up the slack, by definition. And let's really not get into the can of worms that is over-pulling.
The thing about Healers and Tanks is that by definition, they're far more likely to pick up the slack for the other roles. I'm not saying a well placed Raise from a SMN can't save a Dun Scaith raid or five, but those are the rare occurrences where no one would argue against that person getting a comm or two. The vast majority of cases it's up to tanks and healers to keep whatever you're running from being a complete and utter mess on a good day, and really pull through for the team on the lesser days.
tl;dr DPS are needed because the purpose of the game is to kill things, but the only person they really need to take care of is themselves. Tanks and healers have to deal with everything a dps has to deal with, as well as the mistakes of the rest of the party.
On topic, I'm not saying that means they HAVE to get commendations. But to say dps has as much right to comms as healers and tanks is just ridiculous imo. -
08-26-2017, 11:07 PMKeyboardFacerollname
Depends on what happens during the group. I tend to give comms to sprouts, unless someone does a bang up job like the tank pulls too much and dies but the healer keeps everyone else up and rezzes the tank and we clear the trash, then that healer gets a comm.
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08-26-2017, 11:25 PMKeridwyn
I never expect comms and usually I just stick mine randomly on someone unless something impressive happened. But if I do something like solo heal a primal or save a run, it's nice to get the little appreciation sticker. But outside of being spectacular nah, comms go where comms go.
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08-27-2017, 12:10 AMkazeandi
The difference is that DPS play PvE, whereas Heal/Tank play PvP.
I had runs where I felt as the tank that people tried to race me to the mobs, and I had runs as healer where I wondered if people ate damage on purpose because it's "my job to heal them", through more damage even than the tank and sometimes in unhealable situations.
Groups splitting and running all over the place. In such situations, you have more to do than simply playing your character mechanically well. You have to keep things under control, you need to be able to anticipate problems that could arise.
Tank/Healer is definitely the more unpredictable role and I get tired fastest when I tank, whereas I can nuke my way through dungeons all day long.
All that being said, I don't care about recommendations and give them for all kinds of reasons myself, not necessarily for a job well done. Fun and nice people definitely get one, or when someone did something outstanding. -
08-27-2017, 12:18 AMJib
My commendation rules go by this:
If I'm playing tank and my healer is playing well, I give it to him.(raids fellow tank)
If I'm dps and my fellow dps is playing well I give it to him.
If I'm playing healer and my tank is playing well I give it to him.(raids fellow healer)
If someone is doing extraordinary well, like dps taking no damage and dpsing lots using support skills, if the tank using lots of dcds, doing good damage and keeping agro effectively, if my healer is keeping everyone up nicely and using his downtime to dps then they get it
Other situations may occur like someone doing a mistake but then listening to advise effectively, sprouts that are truly inexperienced but ask for advise and listen, ppl that are kind and funny making a run rememberable they will get a comm -
08-27-2017, 02:16 AMSixtyLoveThis whole post......Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
You seem to be missing the whole point of what the commendation system is for; It's a system for giving a commendation to someone who you PERSONALLY think had done a good job in a dungeon, whether that is the tank, healer or the dps; the points you've made are basically diminishing the aspects of the dps role, which are just as needed for duties as tank and healer, so yes; it's justifiable when using the duty finder where it's all equal in terms of rights to comms. No one has any right over anyone else to get more of them based on what job they picked to play so don't be obtuse and contradictory about it because it's nagl on your part.
As for me, I comm whoever as done the best job in the given situation and I do like to comm new players who listen and try their hardest, or tanks for pacing the run if there are new players etc. I'm healer and I personally don't feel disappointed if I don't get a comm. You gave it to the tank? no problem. You gave it to a dps? no problem. I always give a comm in every run that I do, I think it's only fair and I like that I know some people don't expect one so they may smile when they see they received it upon leaving.... manners and being a nice player cost nothing. -
08-27-2017, 02:17 AMNew_Game_Plus
I've yet to run into a healer that demands a comm. I usually main a healer and I don't take it personally when I don't get a comm. Sure sometimes it may be disheartening when a tank doesn't pop cooldowns and you manage to keep them alive during a big pull or when bosses go awry and you keep people alive, but the fact of the matter is that I know I did a decent job and I don't need a comm for validation.
I've been tanking as of late trying to get to 70. I usually give them to a healer if I see them actually trying. (In SB content you really kind of have to be on your a-game) I think the only healer I didn't give it to was one that was busy talking in party chat and almost let me die a couple times. -
08-27-2017, 02:39 AMtechnole
Have well over 4000 commendations. I don't even talk most of the time. Play well, get along, and get out. Never mention the process, the people who ask for such need to get a life.
I'll admit, I have held a commendation because I was on a level 70 job and wanted to save my commendation challenge log XP for a leveling job. -
08-27-2017, 03:02 AMMavriasFirst of all if you're having trouble with any large pull in Bardam's Mettle you're either woefully under-geared for the dungeon or not using your toolkit to its full potential to put things politely. Source: have done barrier to barrier pulls with the full party at ~i265-i270. If you're marking enemies past level 30, you are not a good tank full stop. The exception is in savage but you'll usually verbally communicating those things anyway. That and you're acting like healers and tanks don't make mistakes and that dps don't have utilities they use to support the party as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
Everyone's job becomes more difficult based on other members performance. Healers do not deserve commendations for queueing up as the job they chose to queue up for more than anybody else. People commend whoever they like or no one at all. None should feel entitled to a comm more than anyone else. -
08-27-2017, 03:19 AMFredco191My commendation "requirements":
1. Healer/Tank
2. Did the best Healing/Tanking(if two are there)
3. All of the above is ignored if a funny person is a party member.
Look man I don't know.