Again the regen thing! Wasn't it gone and done?

Step your game up instead of complaining on the forums.

/statusoff Regen

Not only good if regen get casted between pulls, but also if it was casted during a battle but don't run out before the next pull.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lulunami

Step your game up instead of complaining on the forums.

---

The marked one count also for the healer. A party is team play, not solo play with others.
If you have aggro, don't run away. Run to the tank, so he can take the aggro from you without hunting you.
Only exception is if kiting is part of the strategy (Cutter's Cry ant boss).

I don't know....some people here don't seem to fully understand how annoying it is to have a healer put regen on you just as you Tomahawk a group of 3 mobs and have 2 of the mobs run right by you to the healer before you can overpower since your GCD is going and you cannot actually take any action.

People are also making the mistake that it is a "maintaining aggro" issue when it isn't. It is only a problem right at pull and having to chase the mobs because your GCD is going from your initial Tomahawk/Shield Lob/Unmend.

*some pulls in dungeons you can run up and facepull overpower and hit them all which is great (IE: first pull in Bardam or Doma), but the mobs are not always clumped enough for all dungeons or every pull for that to be an option.

I main healer but I've played tanks...therefore I NEVER REGEN a tank on pull when I am healing since I know how freaking annoying it is. Is the healer going to die? They shouldn't as long as you chase the mobs. Really freaking annoying for the tank though? Yes.

No beast gauge for Steel Cyclone? Great I have to chase the healer and the mobs and maneuver to try to hit the 2 runaway mobs with overpower while the healer is running around like a chicken. Other tanks maybe not as bad, their AoE aggro is a circle around them and doesn't have to be aimed. For WAR? You're wasting my GCD's and TP as I try to get hate on everything and made me chase you down.

I know some healers claim "well I come over to you!", but you have to remember not all healers who regen prepull do this for you (most I've seen make me chase them around) and you have to take into account server latency. I've seen a healer say "I come and stand near you, what's the problem?", but on my screen they are not keeping up with me and therefore the mobs are always out of my range.

So I have to turn around and run to them and try to overpower as they run by me and then overpower misses one of them and then I have to use another GCD and more TP again to overpower or tomahawk the mob I missed since with server latency the healer probably never succeeds to put the mobs where I need them for overpower.

The healers that do this also for me ends up being useless overhealing and then the regen is half gone by the time I even take any damage. Might as well have just waited for me to get all the mobs I am going to get instead of a regen that was just useless aggro because it was just overhealing no damage as I sprint.

TL;DR: As someone who has played WAR. The main problem with regening as a tank pulls is that it is ANNOYING for the tank. Once I hit everything once the healer won't have hate, but the problem with that is I have to hit everything at least once and 2/3 of the mobs run straight for the healer and I have to chase them now to get that one hit. We aren't going to wipe, but why be annoying just for useless overheal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

I don't know....some people here don't seem to fully understand how annoying it is to have a healer put regen on you just as you Tomahawk a group of 3 mobs and have 2 of the mobs run right by you to the healer before you can overpower since your GCD is going and you cannot actually take any action.

---

Don't range pull for a start. It might look cool but it was no practical use. A tanks job is to tank mobs away from the group not move them closer to the group. Run in with overpower and you'll get hate as soon as you engage them.

Easy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saccharin

Don't range pull for a start. It might look cool but it was no practical use. A tanks job is to tank mobs away from the group not move them closer to the group. Run in with overpower and you'll get hate as soon as you engage them.

Easy.

---

You didn't read my whole post before replying did you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

*some pulls in dungeons you can run up and facepull overpower and hit them all which is great (IE: first pull in Bardam or Doma), but the mobs are not always clumped enough for all dungeons or every pull for that to be an option.

---

For giggles here is Qarn Normal first pull. This is the first dungeon healers have regens (besides SCH fairy)

http://i.imgur.com/0rr3jXs.png

Just a fyi it isn't possible to run in and overpower and hit all the bats. Even if you ran over to the right and overpowered the far right one aimed at the middle one overpower range isn't far enough. I know because just as I took this screenshot I tried to do that. Missed the middle and of course the left one. If I had regen on me when I tried that guess where the other two bats are going?

These mobs wander around so it is possible you might get lucky and zone in and they are clumped up, but I went into Qarn twice and both times they were this spread out. Unless you want the party to sit and wait for the mobs to move into convenient positions then you cannot overpower face pull because you are just going to still miss 2/3 of the mobs same as tomahawk anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

/statusoff Regen

---

This is a great hint and will immediately add it to my pull macros. Thanks a lot!

Tomahawk > Overpower.
Yup.

Sure, the heal will take 1 or 2 auto attacks because of lag, GCD, or whatever, but the mobs running to the healer will group up that way, and overpower definitely beats Regen... And the healer might be at... 80% HP min. That doesn't seem too bad, and I had almost nobody complaining in years... Is it comfortable ? Well, almost as much as if the healer didn't cast Regen at all, yes x)

If you don't want to accomodate to the party and be the better player, your choice, but I do think accomodating to the party is my job as a tank, and I have no trouble doing it, and had no problem doing it for the past four years.

So, the "git gud" and the "learn to pull" solutions may be the solution to all you problems...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

This is a great hint and will immediately add it to my pull macros. Thanks a lot!

---

my macro for regen killing is:

/statusoff regen
/statusoff "medica II"
/statusoff "aspected benefic"
/statusoff "aspected helios"
/statusoff "whispering dawn"
/statusoff regen
/statusoff "medica II"
/statusoff "aspected benefic"
/statusoff "aspected helios"
/statusoff "whispering dawn"

that gets rid of every regen int he game, and then does it again because they can be stacked in trials.

Ironic (and let's admit, hypocritical) how many people here are telling tanks to git gud instead of the healers. It's a bad habit, a tank should always be flipping off Regen/HoTs before the next pull and healers shouldn't be putting that stuff up until a tanks established.

I'd rather have a healer that always puts regen on me and DPSs his share than a healer that sits between two heals...

I don't do it as a healer because tanks are as touchy as healers and DPSs and I'm trying to be as "average player" friendly as possible, but that's a meh-habit at worse, as it isn't so much of a nuisance for a good tank... But sure, if you're just a tank that's leveling up a tank for the first time, that's annoying and that macro up there is useful... But as a tank main, Regen and other such things are just a nice HoT and a slightly different pull.

I really think if we spent less time telling each other to git gud, maybe we'd actually git gud...

If you pull 3 mobs then continue to run to get other 3 mobs I will put a regen after the first pack. If I don't your health will be at mid when you get to the second pack. As a WHM then I will 3x holy which will stun them. Plenty of time for you to get the agro back.
I do agree doing regen before pre pull of first pack is silly. Wait until first "flash" and then do it.

(WHM main)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jib

If you pull 3 mobs then continue to run to get other 3 mobs I will put a regen after the first pack. If I don't your health will be at mid when you get to the second pack. As a WHM then I will 3x holy which will stun them. Plenty of time for you to get the agro back.
I do agree doing regen before pre pull of first pack is silly. Wait until first "flash" and then do it.

(WHM main)

---

If I were your tank I'd see that regen and click it off before I reached the second pack, because everything I can't get with my first gcd will come and eat you if I do not, disrupting the pull and screwing up clustering for dps aoe.

If I were playing healer, I'd instead use direct heals to keep the tank going until it was holyspam time, as they generate next to no threat compared to a regen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hen-Hen

If I were your tank I'd see that regen and click it off before I reached the second pack, because everything I can't get with my first gcd will come and eat you if I do not, disrupting the pull and screwing up clustering for dps aoe.

---

That is only for pulling more then 2 groups or huge mega pulls. I had no issues in leveling DFs with whms doing what Jib is saying. It is a lot easier to time unleash/flash with them coming in your direction with you stopped. When you need run forward and they are running to you, there is much higher chance of one being missed.

Even though I know it's a bad thing to do, there's so many times I've been in dungeons and tanks just won't pull until I Regen/Diurnal Benefic them. I don't know why but it's become alarmingly common in roulettes lately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sacred_Nym

Even though I know it's a bad thing to do, there's so many times I've been in dungeons and tanks just won't pull until I Regen/Diurnal Benefic them. I don't know why but it's become alarmingly common in roulettes lately.

---

OMG, if that's the reason I'm getting pregen'd all the time, I'm glad I stopped tanking...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hen-Hen

If I were your tank I'd see that regen and click it off before I reached the second pack, because everything I can't get with my first gcd will come and eat you if I do not, disrupting the pull and screwing up clustering for dps aoe.

If I were playing healer, I'd instead use direct heals to keep the tank going until it was holyspam time, as they generate next to no threat compared to a regen.

---

What direct heals are you using on the run between packs, exactly? The only instant heal a WHM has (outside of Benediction) is Tetra which has a minute long CD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MisterLucie

What direct heals are you using on the run between packs, exactly? The only instant heal a WHM has (outside of Benediction) is Tetra which has a minute long CD.

---

You have plenty of time to pause, hardcast a cure/cure2, and keep up with the tank. I've successfully hardcast cure2 twice on the first pull in ala mhigo without losing the tank. This is assuming you're both either a) sprinting or b) not sprinting, it's much much easier if only the healer is sprinting.

Prepull regens drive me up the wall. Yes, I can deal with the wonky wibbly aggro but I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO. Just like I can deal with a SAM's huge epeen aggro because they didn't use diversion but I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO. If I'm pulling enough that I'll be nearly dead by the end, you bet your ass I'm planning to use hallowed ground just after I stop. If I'm not, there's no point using a regen anyway. If a tank uses cooldowns properly and pulls respective of their gear level, there is never any need to pregen. Ever. (Save for maybe in savage but then it's one mob I'm shield lobbing so it DOESNT EVEN MATTER)

Sounds like the people defending the bad healers here are the ones who need to git gud and stop trying to feel smug and superior when someone complains about a legitimately bad tactic in large dungeon pulls.

EDIT to add: and if there's less than a minute between packs that you can't use tetra during pull if that's your heal of choice, holy shit, I wanna buy your dps?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MisterLucie

What direct heals are you using on the run between packs, exactly? The only instant heal a WHM has (outside of Benediction) is Tetra which has a minute long CD.

---

I'm using cure 2/benefic 2 if I don't have an instant up but usually I do, whm also has benison at 70. So long as my tank isn't undergeared (which in a pug environment it might be and if they were they wouldn't be big pulling) that would be enough. You need to make sure you're keeping up, and aware of mobs threat ranges so you can sometimes push ahead enough to keep in range while casting a cure. There are lots of tools available to make this work.

I've been guilty of this on more than one occasion, I have to admit.

I think I struggle with the correct timing when the tank doesn't really provide any indication as to how many mobs they intend on plowing through before they stop to let the group catch up... I don't typically throw Regen up at the start of something, but I'll usually hit it once the first group of mobs has been pulled/flashed. More often that not though, I get tanks yelling at me if I refresh my Regen towards the end of a "group" of mobs when they intend on barreling straight into the next group. /shrug

Either way; I always find it funny when I see these rants. I get that people can be defensive, but if you're noticing something and it's giving you enough frustration that you feel the need to hop on a message board and rant about it after the fact - You may be better served saying something to the person doing it when it happens? (Politely.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirateski

angry words

---

A) I didn't say anything about using regen before pulls. I was responding to someone talking about using regen after the first pack is pulled to keep the tank healthy as they're dragging mobs along. Doing so allows you to instantly swiftcast holy, aero 3, assize, holy, holy without having to waste time and dps casting unneeded cure 2s to frantically get your tank topped back off once they stop.

B) I routinely run my dungeons with a tank who pulls 3+ groups at a time and maybe once in a blue moon will I ever get even a split second of aggro (which also immediately gets snatched back to the tank) when throwing up a regen halfway through the pull. Maybe you do actually need to git gud if you're having that much trouble? We've been doing these same dungeons for months now, you should know when you're going to need to aoe aggro and where you're going to need to be positioned to hit everything with it. A single regen tick shouldn't be messing anyone up at this point.

Quote:

---

Sounds like the people defending the bad healers here are the ones who need to git gud and stop trying to feel smug and superior when someone complains about a legitimately bad tactic in large dungeon pulls

---

I see one guy that feels superior yet shouldn't... Everyone can use hallowed after a big pull, everyone can do a power pull and use his CDs properly in a dungeon speed run... At least, anyone who care... What defines a good dungeon-tank is his ability to adjust, and not be a prick doing it, I'd add...

Now please, try again with less hate in your mouth, and more thinking in your head...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MisterLucie

snarky words

---

I was saying I was casting cure(2) DURING the pull, not as it finishes. As soon as a tank stops I sc>holy>PoM>holyx3>assize etc. Who wants to cast heals after a pull is gathered? lmao.

I both tank and heal those dungeons and I never either need pregens nor use them. And I routinely do the daft pulls if I'm with at least one person that I know will do them properly, be that keeping me alive, holding the aggro, or bringing the mad deeps.

If a tank is at 50% hp by the time they're done pulling two packs, they either need better gear or the mobs got some very lucky DHs in. Use awareness or rampart while pulling, pop a big one when you stop, if you're gonna be taking hits.

And I frequently request that healers don't pregen me if they do, and tell them that when I use CoS that's my "I'm stopping here" cue. I mention it to anyone with bubbles to place, too. Talk. It's not hard!

I wasn't angry, btw. Just explaining my viewpoint.

EDIT: lmfao people are insulting the op and telling them to "git gud" constantly and I throw it back at them and suddenly I'm an evil salt mine of hate and anger? Please.

If only every healer with access to a regen had some sort of instant cast heal - or multiple instant heals if they use cds - then this nonsense about tanks being almost dead by the time they're finished pulling could be solved with the press of a button.

Oh well. Maybe some day SE will give us such tools.

But no really, any pull where where people seem to be trying to justify a pregen - ie any pull where the tank's health depletes rapidly - a regen is negligible because the tank is getting rekt and generally needs big kid heals to be stabilized and then maybe a regen afterward to help keep them stable.

Any other pull - ie pulling one pack at a time - the tank's not dying fast enough and you can give them a moment to punch mobs in the face once before you get regen happy.

I'm not supposed to do that?!

Why are people defending this? There is no point whatsoever
to ever do this. As a tank in training....Stop doing this, please.
Everyone likes to cry tears about how runs aren't at SuperSonicSpeeds sometimes but did you know?
You're wasting time by regening us tanks, then we have to turn around, chase you and the mobs and keep
them together. Wasting peoples time and getting frustrated by doing unnecessary things to make the tank do more work.
I do not do this and I'm a healer main. You need big heals when tanks grab a lot, Lagrasse (sp) and keep up from there.
Regen doesn't do much on the initial huge packs because you're pumping the big heals.
Wait a while, time allows? Regen and now you may have time to DPS alongside the others while regen rolls.
TLDR; Please stop pre-pull regens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Now please, try again with less hate in your mouth, and more thinking in your head...

---

Irony in the post, but you're telling us to "git gud / l2play" and this comment here isn't hateful?
Something something black Kettle pots here.

Ok speaking as a healer, it's embarrassing how bad a lot of healers are now. Regen has been there all along. Most of us are just smart enough to not use it before pulls. The best way to teach a healer not to do it is to let them die when they do. They die enough they'll stop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Tomahawk > Overpower.
Yup.

Sure, the heal will take 1 or 2 auto attacks because of lag, GCD, or whatever, but the mobs running to the healer will group up that way, and overpower definitely beats Regen...

---

So long the healer don't run away out of range

Quote:

---

/statusoff "Regen"
/statusoff "Medica II"
/statusoff "Whispering Dawn"
/statusoff "Aspected Benefic"
/statusoff "Aspected Helios"
/e all Heal Over Time buffs cleared! <se.2>
/p I have removed all heal over time buffs. If this is a pre-pull please do not recast until combat has started. Thank you.

---

I have this on my hotbar. Every time they cast a HoT on me, I use that macro. They soon tend to get the message.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

They are returning back!
The healers that haven't nothing other to do than put a regen on you the instant before you are taking aggro from a group of mobs.

Dudes, I don't want play an aggro war with you, why are you testing me at every pull? Why I have to watch out even for my healer other than the bad guys?

What worsen the situation, the couple mobs that maybe have to retake aggro are running away the pack because healer running around the map as an headless chicken, instead of taking mobs to me. I'd start to think he wanted a scene of merry-go-round to screenshot...

---

This isn't the healers fault. This has been a game design flaw since day one and never fixed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

It does not. The bother is regen AND healer running away. I'm pretty sure you keep near your tank and don't even mind the mobs, because you know your tank will grab them. If ever get aggro, depends how much time the mobs run before coming to tank's range. I've seen when pulling with regen, a mob takes about 2-3s before switch aggro. Before last aggro changes, the switch was instant and the problem much more noticeable.

---

Ah, yeah. I thought it was just tanks not grabbing hate from a regen that is cast pre-pull or carried to the new one. Yep, and any healer worth their salt should apply their "tank butt" glue during pulls. If aggro happens to come to a healer, they should run to tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I have this on my hotbar. Every time they cast a HoT on me, I use that macro. They soon tend to get the message.

---

I need to use this. I didn't even know you could do that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

If only they would actually listen though. No matter how politely I've phrased it, over and over again people will either ignore me or give me some variation of "do your job I'll do mine / you don't pay my sub kthx". I'm sad I finished leveling all my healers so now I have to trust other people in DF...

---

the nyou keep running and don't take aggro back from them :) you finis hthe pull and if deaths need to occur for them to learn, so be it. If I throw a shield up too late I run to the tank for easy management, I know better xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

For giggles here is Qarn Normal first pull. This is the first dungeon healers have regens (besides SCH fairy)

http://i.imgur.com/0rr3jXs.png

Just a fyi it isn't possible to run in and overpower and hit all the bats. Even if you ran over to the right and overpowered the far right one aimed at the middle one overpower range isn't far enough. I know because just as I took this screenshot I tried to do that. Missed the middle and of course the left one. If I had regen on me when I tried that guess where the other two bats are going?

---

You see, this is what I've been talking about. If you have trouble pulling this pack with regen on you, you need to rethink how you pull and learn to pull properly.

Lob/Tomahawk/Unmend the left-most bat. As soon as you get the skill off, you snap towards the right and go for Flash/Overpower/Unleash. This is where the first thing you need to learn: you don't necessarily have to be heading towards the mobs. If the mobs are so spread out, and you have regen on you, why are you not heading towards your healer instead? You know the last two bats are going to go for your healer, why are you trying to chase them down and complain about your healer instead of going straight for where the bats are going and drop a Flash/Overpower/Unleash?

Now even if you couldn't think flexibly and have used Flash/Overpower/Unmend to catch only the middle bat and missed the third one, you have Provoke, don't you? Provoke and another Lob/Tomahawk/Unmend will get that third bat to you. Problem solved.

Yes, aggro is a shared responsibility, it is a shared responsibility mostly when you cannot shoulder it on your own. And that was in early 2.x when a Flash actually was less enmity than one hard-hitting attack from some DPS jobs. Regen is not one of those situations.

What about Brayflox with one ranged mob and two melee? Do you demand healers to not regen so you can always get to the ranged mob first and only use one Flash/Overpower/Unmend to catch all three? No. You don't do that. You either Lob a melee, Flash the next Melee and pull both to the ranged for another Flash, or you Lob the melee because it's closest, and Flash the ranged, again using the Provoke+Lob on the last ranged that may be heading towards the healer.

There are so many pulls like this, a tank seriously needs to learn that pulling isn't just Flash/Overpower/Unmend. You have tools to handle these pulls, you should use them flexibly. There isn't a combo order to these tools.

And then you can advance to the next stage during chain pulling to actually use your enmity combo to pull the next pack while DPS is still finishing off the last 5% of the last mob from your current pack.

Think flexibly, use the tools flexibly, and you can become a much more effective tank, instead of always having to rely on other team members to create the perfect situation for you to do your job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zfz

You see, this is what I've been talking about. If you have trouble pulling this pack with regen on you, you need to rethink how you pull and learn to pull properly.

Lob/Tomahawk/Unmend the left-most bat. As soon as you get the skill off, you snap towards the right and go for Flash/Overpower/Unleash. This is where the first thing you need to learn: you don't necessarily have to be heading towards the mobs. If the mobs are so spread out, and you have regen on you, why are you not heading towards your healer instead? You know the last two bats are going to go for your healer, why are you trying to chase them down and complain about your healer instead of going straight for where the bats are going and drop a Flash/Overpower/Unleash?

---

Or the healer could delay the regen until after the pull. Seems a lot simpler.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zfz

Common Sense

---

Any tank worth their salt knows how to adapt to the "pregen" shit, yes.

But in terms of speeding things up and keeping it all streamlined?

Tanks: Aggro Management > Defensive Buffs > DPS
Healers: Healing > DPS > Aggro Management
DPS: DPS/Offensive Buffs > Aggro Management

Tanks, design-wise, are supposed to be the ones to take care of most of the aggro management. Healers and DPS can help with aggro reduction actions, but it's mostly Tanks doing to work.

If Tanks are constantly getting pregen'd, they're losing time trying to get things in order as they move along, getting all of the mobs under control.

I know it all amounts to a matter of a few seconds, but it's still seconds of precious time that the whole party gets to keep, to start doing something else when the dungeon is finished.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThunderGodThor

Or the healer could delay the regen until after the pull. Seems a lot simpler.

---

Nah, let's piss off the tanks and wonder why there are barely any tanks to spare.
Then tell said tanks "l2tank" then people cry tears as to why it takes half an hour to Q for anything.
Be nice to your tanks, and make their life easier....please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

They are returning back!
The healers that haven't nothing other to do than put a regen on you the instant before you are taking aggro from a group of mobs.

---

This is very common on the EU worlds...

You can try asking them to stop, it might work though from my personal experience it just makes them worse, so just let them die then leave, 30 minute wait to re-queue is worth it.

As a healer I never use Regen or anything on the tank until they have aggro on everything. And one more thing, DPS that run ahead and pull, I let them die, never heal them once during the duty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThunderGodThor

Or the healer could delay the regen until after the pull. Seems a lot simpler.

---

Whaaaat? But then the tank is going to take damage! I can't let that happen ever at all! Even if it means I'll take damage, but that just means the tank is being baaaaad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zfz

You see, this is what I've been talking about. If you have trouble pulling this pack with regen on you, you need to rethink how you pull and learn to pull properly.

---

Just for the record, that picture and commentary were in response to someone saying that you shouldn't use your Tomahawk/Shield Lob/Unmend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThunderGodThor

Or the healer could delay the regen until after the pull. Seems a lot simpler.

---

lol this. Boggles my mind that tanks should have to deal with this and do some geometry nonsense (really only WAR has to deal with this since their overpower needs a target and is cone if no gauge for cyclone) just so the regen can tick for a measly 150 potency per tick and potentially unstabilize a pull.

Yeah there are tanks that can handle it, I don't usually have a problem even if there's medica 2 healing nothing on when I pull (which people in this thread would probably defend, too) but as soon as those mobs run to the healer they might as well have just waited the extra 3 seconds for them to turn red instead now it's a circus and the dps can't even hit them optimally until they are clumped up.