What's with all these people single-targetting during big pulls in dungeons?

XIV a lazy player's dream. Be lazy and win.
Seriously no matter how much SE simplify this game people will always find a way to not read what their skills do and just be lazy spamming 1 button.

I do not understand it myself. Take Kugane Castle. The first pulls are often big ones with 4+ mobs. The tank doesn't need to pull like that of course, but it is quicker and more effecient to do so. When ever I see a Melee just single targetting during that I want to just scream at them. I am standing here doing what the community considers the most boring aoe rotation of casting scatter back to back doing more damage spread across all targets and you are just making it take longer to down the group. I just don't get it because if I can do such a boring rotation and fill in with contre sexte and that one enhanced melee attack ( forgetting the name) then tgeir rotation being boring is not an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I brought this up in the other thread but isn't this discussion really about a mathematics trick? After all, even though you did 2000 damage, each individual mob only lost 200 health. Since mobs can do as much damage to the party at one health as they do at full, isn't it better to bring each individual mob down as quickly as possible by focusing all your firepower on one target at a time?

I really would like an honest answer because I do like to play well.

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Let's pretend 1 potency = 1 damage. If there are 10 mobs, 360 potency on one mob is 360 damage while 200 potency hitting 10 mobs is 2000 damage. Big difference. Even though it is spread between tons of targets they will all die at the same time way faster than if you single target. If you single target you would smooth the amount of damage out in the long run but the mobs live longer so they get to attack more than if you just aoed them down quickly.

Usually you want to burst everything down before the tank runs out of defensive cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Nhisso

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Lol, what is this bro-rage?

Stop derailing the thread, if you are not using AoE damage skills on 3+ mobs, you are indeed playing your job wrong.

Skills are situational, use them in their appropriate situations.

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Originally Posted by Altena

The last two roulettes I have run, the other DPS (both of them melee) are sitting at full TP, and single targetting mobs when there have been 10+ mobs on the tank.

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You anecdote is unclear -- exactly what level of the instances were you running in? Was it a leveling roulette? A 50/60 roulette? A Guildhest? Did the tank indicate they were going to pull 10+ mobs beforehand and get agreement from DPS and Healer? Were the 10+ mobs firing off their own AoE rings? Was one of the melee DPS a Dragoon?

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Originally Posted by Altena

The last two roulettes I have run, the other DPS (both of them melee) are sitting at full TP, and single targetting mobs when there have been 10+ mobs on the tank. Furthermore, I am bottomed out, with Invigorate on CD and no Goad, even though I politely asked for it.

Please guys, when there are 4 or more mobs, it's just better to use your job's AoE skills. You're contributing only a tiny fraction of the damage, as a DPS class, if you're single targeting during big pulls.

In addition to this, take the TP regen utility skill (Goad & Tactician) if you're a physical DPS and the other player is also a physical. Keep an eye on their TP bar during big pulls, and use the skill when they are at about 50% TP.

Every job has AoE skills. Please use them.

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I think another problem is seriously why do tanks only single target when SE has giving you plenty of aoe, I feel like tanks slow stuff down just as much as dps

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Originally Posted by Altena

Sorry to say but you're in the minority if you prefer to run a dungeon slowly.

By all means, if you're a DPS and don't wish to do more than 3 mobs at a time, you're more than welcome to make a PF.. However the community norm is to pull groups, so 9 times out of 10, that's what you get when you zone into a DF dungeon.

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The fact is 9 out of 10 times the group won't follow the norm as the norm doesn't exist in DF. So while I agree it is nice to be able to have big pulls and move quickly it is also up to the tank to adjust to the rest of the group not the other way around. I also think it would be nice if people could say things like, "Please use AOE on mob pulls" without folks getting bent out of shape. Here again about all you can do is roll with it or form a PF to your liking. Nothing is going to change that nor is it possible with the way DF works.

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Originally Posted by Celef

Might be stupid but I've always been told that it was more efficient to burn one mob at a time rather than using the AoEs that are pretty weak in this game so I'm confused ^^"

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You're not stupid.

And there's just a 'break point' where AoE skills start doing more damage than single target skills.
Depending on the group and situation, that 'break point' is generally around 3 bad guys.

Therefore:

If there are 4 or more bad guys - Most efficient way to kill all baddies is to use AoE skills (make sure each skill hits every bad guy).
If there are 2 or less bad guys - Most efficient way to kill all baddies is to use single-target skills.

If there are 3 bad guys, it can be pretty close to even.
If you feel comfortable AoE-ing... then do that.
If you feel comfortable single-targeting... then do that.

These are rules of thumb.

There are specifics that can get interesting...
For one example: Sometimes there can be a large group of things, where 1 has more health and does more damage.
In this case it's generally best to AoE things down... but what if somehow we end up with the 1 more-health/more-damage bad guy closer to death while the others still have lots of health? And the tank is kind of dying? In this case... it would be best to single-target the 1 trouble-causing bad guy down, then go back to AoE skills to finish everything else off.

Other nuances become clearer as you play and get a feel for your class and each situation.


Have fun!

Tell the DPS to use AoE on the big pulls and if they don't, kick them. Apparently you are able to do this successfully under the "different playstyles" clause. Just do not assume that they know they should be doing this... a lot of folks are new, used Jump potions, are getting used to the new skill changes, etc. and they might not know or realize that this is how they are supposed to be doing it. If you attempt to help them learn and they aren't having any of it, kick and move on as there are plenty of DPS waiting in the queue and ready to speed run.

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Originally Posted by Cold_Raven

snip

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Alright, since you're knowledgeable on this, wonder if I can pick your brain on RDM specifically. What I was advised to do was use Scatter followed by Verthunder/Veraero (to allow for the Verflare/Verholy if you get to a single target, such as a boss, for when you need to melee). But in doing so, I've found I'm often proccing Verfire/Verstone Ready. Is the best option to allow the buff to drop, or should you keep weaving them in? Currently, to account for what I think is a mild OCD, I've been using the procs (which makes Impactful a pain in the backside). But would it be better to do the one, and then follow it up with basic Scatter spam and allowing the buffs to drop if it comes down to it? Or is it better to use the procs to allow for faster generation of Black/White mana, for more melee AoE combos? This is where I really fall apart with RDM.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Sorry to say but you're in the minority if you prefer to run a dungeon slowly.

You evidently don't understand that the community decides the norm.

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Even a minority is still part of the community and if you run into that minority in a pug group, that's just what you'll have to deal with.

I personally don't care either way so long as things die. That's my personal end goal per dungeon. Things die, preferrably not the party >.> but you know, shit happens...

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Alright, since you're knowledgeable on this, wonder if I can pick your brain on RDM specifically.

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Unfortunately, my RDM is sitting at lvl 50 and I haven't played it more than twice.
I am woefully unqualified to answer your question :(

However, an answer does exist.

There are those who specialize in RDM and also like to do parses of their abilities... if you can find one of them I'm sure they can help answer your question. My suggestion would be to try the DPS forum and start a RDM question thread. There are generally those for each and every class who fully enjoy fleshing out specific questions like yours and getting to the bottom of it.

Without a parser, it can be difficult to test extreme-nuance questions on your own.
If you can devise a test on a single target you can use SSS to see if one way kills the dummy faster than the other (a few tests are necessary because of random number generators on your attacks and crit procs).

Hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Alright, since you're knowledgeable on this, wonder if I can pick your brain on RDM specifically. What I was advised to do was use Scatter followed by Verthunder/Veraero (to allow for the Verflare/Verholy if you get to a single target, such as a boss, for when you need to melee). But in doing so, I've found I'm often proccing Verfire/Verstone Ready. Is the best option to allow the buff to drop, or should you keep weaving them in? Currently, to account for what I think is a mild OCD, I've been using the procs (which makes Impactful a pain in the backside). But would it be better to do the one, and then follow it up with basic Scatter spam and allowing the buffs to drop if it comes down to it? Or is it better to use the procs to allow for faster generation of Black/White mana, for more melee AoE combos? This is where I really fall apart with RDM.

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I've never played DPS aside from Monk (boosted it to 60 instead), so I'll advise you based on my experience SOLELY as a tank;

Work with your class mechanic via Black & White Mana generation. Pick a target that doesn't do telepathing AOEs (and instead autoattacks tanks all of the time) and then try to burst them down with it while also using Scatter to weaken the rest of the pack.

I would always hard-cast Scatter then follow up with either of the Verthunder / Veraero depending on your Black & White Mana. Weave in any oGCD abilities whenever possible.

To my knowledge, RDMs don't have much AOEs outside of Scatter, Contre Six & Moulinet, and it'll take time to build up Mana to accomodate both the Single target melee combo (for Verflare / Verholy proc) and E. Moulinet.

Reason to focus on autoattacking mobs is that they a source of constant damage pressure on the tanks, and that they follow whenever the tank is moving out of another add's impending AOE, hence breaking the pull stacking positions. Mobs prepping AOE usually means free time for ranged jobs, which are most of the DPSes (save melee) & healers to catch up on their appropriate responsibilities.

Should, however, you encounter a pack of high density adds with low HP, it's better to spam 2x Scatter to quickly wither them down. Low potency wouldn't matter as much when they have mediocre HP values to boot off anyway.

I'll emphasize again; I DO NOT PLAY DPS AT ALL. Take my advice with a grain of salt, or seek better ones from experienced people. I'm just pitching in my opinion as someone who plays the tank role most of the time.

Since the mission of this thread is to increase awareness, here is a NIN trick I figured out when SB launched. You can get 4 AoE jutsus every 2 minutes, so roughly each large pull.

Upon approach to the pack, get Doton ready, Ninjutsu + immediate Hide. Doton doesn't tick right away, so you have a small window to use Hide and reset your mudra and ninjutsu timer due to the Hide change. What this allows is you to use Katon freely, Hellfrog Medium, Kassatsu Katon for massive AoE burst in about 4 seconds time when you get fast at it. This allows you quickly whittle down multiple mobs. When you get more comfortable with that, you can actually Death Blossom in between each of these oGCD actions for even more damage.

Hope it helps, also side note to the people trying to mention roulettes that aren't Expert. the OP has stated multiple times now they are talking about Expert Roulette, nothing else, and that they only run others if they have excess time.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Imagine a scenario with 4 enemies each requiring 2000 potency to defeat (for a total of 8000 potency). Your regular 1-2-3 combo does a total of 150-280-370 potency (total 800 potency every 3 Gcds) which results in you needing to perform a total of 30 Gcds to kill all 4 enemies (total 8000 potency).

In contrast, your AoE action has the potency of 130 which when hitting 4 enemies gives you a total of 520 potency per Gcd (in which we compare to the 1-2-3 resulting in 1560 potency every 3 Gcds). In this case, you will need to hit at most 18 Gcds to defeat all 4 enemies (total 9360 potency).

*snip for brevity*

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Oh! I see it now! The party ends up taking less damage in the encounter using AoEs rather than burning down one mob at a time. Thanks for explaining it in such a clear manner.

Of course, there will always be exceptions. Some mobs are just too dangerous to not burn as fast as possible. For example, mobs which take control away from your character.

Anyroads, I appreciate the time you took to answer my question. I'll improve my play.

*writes down* In general, AoE at three mobs or more.:)

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Here is the answers I got:
BLM is doing fine
MNk uses too much tp to AoE and is never worth it.
DRG uses too much tp to AoE and is never worth it.
I will not have someone without MNK unlocked telling me how to play (When I asked to AoE and DPS was low from it)
No one told me before my dps was low so it is fine

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TP starvation from aoeing is generally a non-issue, provided the mobs are dying fast enough. Which generally means you need both dps to be aoeing.

As other people have said, it really doesn't help that there are designated trash pulls that pretty much tells you to "AoE here", such as the ninjas in doma or the slashers in castrum. These collectively hit quite hard and would be nice to see them all drop in 10 seconds rather than 5 seconds to kill one out of the 8 that's swarming the tank.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

*writes down* In general, AoE at three mobs or more.:)

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It's a good rule of thumb, but I'd definitely encourage adjusting to the context. Bottoming yourself out of TP from aoeing when the mobs are nowhere close to dying (they're either not "designated aoe pulls" or the other dps isn't aoeing) is going to lead out to a dps loss since you frontloaded everything.

An example I can think of right now is deciding how to use your RDM abilties. Jolt II does 240 potency, Aero/thunder does 300, and Fire/stone does 270 potency to Scatter's 100/target. It would take 3 targets for scatter to deal more damage than any of those per GCD spent. However if the concern is incoming tank damage and the mobs are not aoe trash packs, then you'd probably want to do scatter>aero/thunder or opt out scatter entirely in favor of killing one quickly to swap to the next (granted this is frequently not the case for dungeons)

This argument is so dumb I see this maybe never in duty finder majority of people knw their class limitation oh I will put this out there you can argue with me all you want but a DRG pre level 70 that is spamming aoes besides dragon fly and Geri when they are up is bad..The potencies for both death spike and sonic thrust are way to weak and do as much damage a death blossom :/ and lets not forget you wont even hit all the mobs

So its about efficient and aoe isnt always efficient you guys need to pay more attention to what your composition is, two melee don't equal a SMN for aoes so why pull just as much as if you had one.I see tanks pull huge groups and have like a MNK and DRG as dps and wonder why the healer went OOM or the tank dropped before the mobs

Also not blaming healers at all but you are the true masters of aoe and you are essentially a caster, melee that arnt a SAM (they get no excuses) arnt doing much aoe Damage unless they get those weak groups like in doma castle

The only reason I wonder why people only single-target during a big pull is AOE-ing is FUN !! They are missing out :)

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Alright, since you're knowledgeable on this, wonder if I can pick your brain on RDM specifically. What I was advised to do was use Scatter followed by Verthunder/Veraero (to allow for the Verflare/Verholy if you get to a single target, such as a boss, for when you need to melee). But in doing so, I've found I'm often proccing Verfire/Verstone Ready. Is the best option to allow the buff to drop, or should you keep weaving them in? Currently, to account for what I think is a mild OCD, I've been using the procs (which makes Impactful a pain in the backside). But would it be better to do the one, and then follow it up with basic Scatter spam and allowing the buffs to drop if it comes down to it? Or is it better to use the procs to allow for faster generation of Black/White mana, for more melee AoE combos? This is where I really fall apart with RDM.

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Forgive me for butting in.

Generally speaking, just spamming Scatter is enough. While you get the same potency using Scatter and VerAero/VerThunder, you'll spend more overall time on the mobs alternating between single target and AoE spells. Using VerHoly and VerFlare is a DPS loss compared to Enchanted Moulinet (550 versus 200(*). You switch to AoE rotation at 3 targets for RDM, so that'd make the potency 600). You might gain white and black magic faster using scatter into single target, but you gain time on targets.

From how I understood it when I thought about what you were advised and assuming gauge is at 0:
Scatter + scatter = 600 potency + 6 white AND black mana (discounting 25% proc)
Scatter+ VerAero/Thunder = 600 potency + 3 white AND black + 11 to white OR black
Enchanted Moulinet at 30/30 mana.
Double scatter would take 5 GCDs. Scatter + single target takes 4 GCDs because of needing both mana at 30.
Using your procs, Verstone or Verfire, results in a DPS loss of 30 and only a mana gain of 3 over double scatter.
Accounting for Enhanced Scatter, you can gain enough mana for Moulinet anywhere between 3 GCDs or 5 GCDs. Yay for RNG~

With me, I keep the enmity/enemy list open so I can always see each add's HP levels. As soon as I see the 3 final mobs down to low levels, I start doing single target and will hold off using Moulinet, even if I'm already at 3x/3x.

I made a thread about this a few weeks ago. It's terrible. Most dps I come across stubbornly try to single target everything. You sure as hell aren't getting my commendation if you don't help me aoe.

As a tank if I see DPS single targeting then I shift to doing single group pulls so the DPS and healer can focus fire down mobs quickly. Making the run take about as much time as if I had DPS that do lots of AoE so I can do large group pulls.

Its part of a tanks job to read the group and adjust.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

As a tank if I see DPS single targeting then I shift to doing single group pulls so the DPS and healer can focus fire down mobs quickly. Making the run take about as much time as if I had DPS that do lots of AoE so I can do large group pulls.

Its part of a tanks job to read the group and adjust.

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It's EVERYONE'S job to adjust.

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

It's EVERYONE'S job to adjust.

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I would rather adjust to pulling smaller groups that the DPS can handle rather than stubbornly pull big groups where the healer cannot take part in doing the DPS as otherwise I would die and the group go down with me, because the DPS were empty of TP and had already blown their TP recovery options. In every run the tank is in the best position to adjust for the performance level of the party.

You can say everyone needs to adjust but sometimes the DPS simply cannot bring the numbers you want because they are not geared enough, or are on classes that have weak AoE to begin with. Those same big pulls can also lock the healer out of being able to use their AoE DPS and often times it is the healer who has the best AoE DPS out of the group. So enabling them to be able to use their DPS would speed the run up better then doing big pulls where their DPS is eliminated from the equation to keep you alive.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Of course, there will always be exceptions. Some mobs are just too dangerous to not burn as fast as possible.

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Yep, there are always exceptions that you as a DD need to pay attention to. As you said, some enemies that are generally more dangerous need to go down as soon as possible. Additionally, if you notice that there are still more than three enemies still alive but your TP is dipping into the ~200s with your TP recovery tools unavailable, it's best to swap over to using your Single Target attacks while relying on your Tp-less costing oGCDs to compensate while your TP recovers i.e. Elixir Field, Gierskogul, and Hellfrog Medium.

I have noticed this aswell, even after telling them to do AoE, 60% of the time they still keep doing single targeting. I healed this group with 2 DPS who did single damage only and a tank that pulled big groups and never used any defensive abilities. The run was painfull.

My biggest gripe is when a tank does mass pulls and a dps single target mobs down, and this goes for several pulls without both players coming with a compromise.

Then you either have to tell the tank to slow down or the dps to AoE and hope you don't step on a snowflake toes and open the floodgates for an unecessary 'let me lecture on how this way is better and everyone else is wrong' drama.

That would depend on the job and play style. As in my case, when I'm using SAM, I tend to do a one single combo on each pull to get my dmg up buff first and then proceed to do my AoE combos. It also depends on the type of mobs you are fighting, if there's one of those huge monsters that love to do AoEs, I will focus it first to remove it as fast as possible.

Some classes have better ways to deal with group mobs than others, so I see why they would feel more comfortable doing single combos, is it the best viable option? perhaps not, but you can't expect everyone to play the same way as you, or your FC mates do.

I was hoping someone would note the "Flare" treatment a lot of aoes got. No issues using aoe skills on reasonable pulls, but when you pull half the dungeon, anything after #5 is getting half damage, and I'd call that pretty inefficient.

To clarify, do your big pulls, but keep them reasonable. At one point it's more of a disservice to the entire party than it is helpful, especially if the tank or healer can't keep up. I've had tanks nearly die in the span of an Aero 3 cast, and that's just not right.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I was hoping someone would note the "Flare" treatment a lot of aoes got. No issues using aoe skills on reasonable pulls, but when you pull half the dungeon, anything after #5 is getting half damage, and I'd call that pretty inefficient.

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That's where switching the focus of your AoE every few casts/attacks so that it somewhat balances out comes into play. While it's still not as effective as it could be, it does sort of balance out the damage. I always try to target the one closest to the middle of the group, and in big groups like the dog things in Ala Mhigo, that point is almost constantly shifting.

Been doing MNK lately so here's my two cents (chink chink): I'll have to do a single target once every 15 seconds to keep up Twin Snakes. No way around that. I generally only do my AOE rotation when I'm faced with a group of four or more, not the standard 3 or more, because Perfect Balance is only good for spamming Rockbreaker 3-4 times if I'm careful with timing, and Arm of the Destroyer's (the immediately accessible AOE ability) potency is only 50. Form Shift takes up a GCD so it's pointless; might as well just crit a Bootshine and refresh my Twin Snakes.

At 4+ enemies the math works out for MNK to AOE. At only 3, we get a bit more potency doing single target with proper positionals.

(Disclaimer: I'm only 64 MNK and this might be different at 70. But looking at the Riddles and Brotherhood, I don't think it changes.)

TankHunter678, come be my tank? Pretty please?

In regards to groups sometimes having those mobs you need to burn rather than AoE, the archers at the beginning of Baelsar's Wall are a perfect example of this. When that dungeon first came out, those DoTs hurt like hell and nobody was getting them down so they were re-applied as fast as I could clear them. They weren't the sort of thing you could just heal through. They were that nasty. When I had groups who did focus those down first, big pulls in that area got a lot easier on my MP.

Some classes need a higher threshold for AoE to compensate. Lets take my class, RDM, as an example:

A single target normal rotation achieves 140~160 PPS (potency per second), while AoE rotation achieves ~47.5 PPS per enemy (APPROXIMATELY, Contre-Sixte's dmg mechanic makes it next to impossible to achieve a "per enemy" number. That being said, you need AT LEAST 4 mobs in the pull for the AoE rotation to even START compensating. From the top of my head, I remember MNKs have a much higher threshold, cuz their AoE skills sucks badly. Others may follow.

HAVING AoE skills doesn't mean having an EFFECTIVE AoE rotation. Not to mention that enemies dying faster, instead of the entire pull dying together means less dmg on the tank, which leads to higher BOTH tank and healer DPS. All that needs to be taken into consideration when evaluating. In some party comps, it's even COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE to do big pulls, a fact that few tanks are even aware of.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Yep, there are always exceptions that you as a DD need to pay attention to. As you said, some enemies that are generally more dangerous need to go down as soon as possible. Additionally, if you notice that there are still more than three enemies still alive but your TP is dipping into the ~200s with your TP recovery tools unavailable, it's best to swap over to using your Single Target attacks while relying on your Tp-less costing oGCDs to compensate while your TP recovers i.e. Elixir Field, Gierskogul, and Hellfrog Medium.

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Good point! :D

As a DRG, I really don't know what people want of me.

1. I can choose not to AoE, and instead quickly burn down the priority targets as fast as possible. Yet people will give me hate for not AoEing with my rediculously expensive frontal cone that has almost negligible Potency.

2. I can choose to AoE, and burn through all of my TP and Invigorate before even the first pull is dead, and people will give me hate for having bad DPS due to having no TP and nobody to Goad me.

You can't win.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Alright, since you're knowledgeable on this, wonder if I can pick your brain on RDM specifically. What I was advised to do was use Scatter followed by Verthunder/Veraero (to allow for the Verflare/Verholy if you get to a single target, such as a boss, for when you need to melee). But in doing so, I've found I'm often proccing Verfire/Verstone Ready. Is the best option to allow the buff to drop, or should you keep weaving them in? Currently, to account for what I think is a mild OCD, I've been using the procs (which makes Impactful a pain in the backside). But would it be better to do the one, and then follow it up with basic Scatter spam and allowing the buffs to drop if it comes down to it? Or is it better to use the procs to allow for faster generation of Black/White mana, for more melee AoE combos? This is where I really fall apart with RDM.

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Apologies if you specifically wanted an answer from Cold_Raven, figured I could be helpful here.

How to generate mana:

- If you have two or fewer targets, just single-target - Scatter has less potency than even Jolt II in this situation.
- If you have four or more targets, just spam Scatter - Scatter has 400+ potency - more than any attack outside of the melee combo (and melee doesn't happen often enough to make up 100 potency per GCD).
- If you have exactly three targets, use Scatter -> Veraero -> Scatter -> Verthunder etc... - Scatter has equal potency to Veraero/Verthunder but generates only 6 mana (8.25 on average taking into account Enhanced Scatter procs) instead of 11. More mana means you can use E. Moulinet more often. Ignore the Verstone/Verfire procs - you are losing 30 potency for a gain of only 0.75 mana (7.5 potency when converted through E. Moulinet) if you use one.

How to spend mana:

- If you have two or fewer targets, E. Moulinet delivers 6.666... potency per mana, The single-target melee combo delivers 9.5 (taking into account that it lets you finish with Verholy/Verflare) so you should use the single-target combo.
- If you have three or more targets, E. Moulinet delivers 10 potency per mana, so you should just try to use it as much as possible.


In every situation, keep all your damage-dealing oGCDs on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Apologies if you specifically wanted an answer from Cold_Raven, figured I could be helpful here.

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Nah, that's fine. I only asked Cold_Raven because it seemed like he really knew his stuff. Anyone who could give me a good solid answer (such as yourself), was more than welcome to lend a hand here. I'll definitely bear that in mind for future. However, if I have exactly three targets during the "generate mana" phase, how would one deal with Verfire/Verstone procs?

I can tell you why I don't spam AoEs as a samurai: I would actually like to be able to attack. Fuga -> Mangetsu/Oka is a combo that flows pretty well, but it's such a massive drain on my TP for not nearly as effective damage l, because of falloff, as, say, my bard, who can just put up Mage's Balled, throw out some DoTs, and have unlimited Rain of Death. Now, of course I use Kyuten and Tenka Goken when available, but without a TP generating ability, just spamming my AoE combo means I last for about 20 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Nah, that's fine. I only asked Cold_Raven because it seemed like he really knew his stuff. Anyone who could give me a good solid answer (such as yourself), was more than welcome to lend a hand here. I'll definitely bear that in mind for future. However, if I have exactly three targets during the "generate mana" phase, how would one deal with Verfire/Verstone procs?

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Oops, sorry I went back and edited that in. Ignore the Verstone/Verfire procs - you are losing 30 potency (vs. a Scatter) for a gain of only 0.75 mana (7.5 potency when converted through E. Moulinet) if you use one.

I dunno what sparked this topic but as a monk main I try to aoe when ther's 4 plus. But Invig and Pure only go so far, and 9 times out of 10 Im the only one aoeing. so I get TP death. Noone goads either and since you can't goad yourself I can se why alot of DPS don't aoe. Plus apparently people tell others not too in game. I had a few people yell at me to stop aoeing alot lately. And yes I learned to no run out of TP but I still got yelled and even laughed at. " WHAT? You're not posted to spam AOEs" and these were mentors telling me this. I choose to aoe when I can but if people hear this from many people it's no wonder why alot don't. My only point is I don't think it's so much the DPS players being lazy, but other peopel telling them not too, which confuses people since you have topics like this one. So in short.. everyone needs to come to the same page and agree on whats what.. otherwise this issue and many others will never be fixed. Either that or SE LET ME GOAD MYSELF PLEASE!!

Maybe I'm just weird but whenever I play DPS roles I enjoy the AoE pulls, the more the merrier.

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Originally Posted by Dameron

As a DRG, I really don't know what people want of me.

1. I can choose not to AoE, and instead quickly burn down the priority targets as fast as possible. Yet people will give me hate for not AoEing with my rediculously expensive frontal cone that has almost negligible Potency.

2. I can choose to AoE, and burn through all of my TP and Invigorate before even the first pull is dead, and people will give me hate for having bad DPS due to having no TP and nobody to Goad me.

You can't win.

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There are a few odd pulls here and there which the DPS should focus certain targets first (bombs, summoners etc...) Most of the time though it's just not necessary and killing the whole pack quicker is what most people prefer.

If you're running out of TP on the first pull even after invigorate then the chances are your fellow DPS is either bad or single target killing. If both DPS AoE when appropriate, especially if one is a has good AoE such as BLM or SMN then TP shouldn't be an issue.