How can you continue to ignore monk completely?

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Originally Posted by ItaruKarin

I'd say that what makes monk unfun is the simplicity of the rotation.

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I'd argue this is a major FFXIV problem, not just with Monk, although I haven't played BRD or MCH. Especially with tanks. Like on Warrior, you have 1-2-3 Butcher's Block, 1-4-5 Storm's Eye, 1-4-6 Storm's Path. There's very little variety and choice you can make. It's too simple. I could go on but I've already written a lengthy piece about tanks in general.

I play a 48 monk. Even with proper gear and being higher level than enemies, monk feels boring and weak and i cant wait to hit 50 to switch to samurai.


But dont get rid of shoulder tackle. All melee classes should have a rush-to-enemy skill in MMOs ;)
But yeah, the monk feels very weak and seems to get weaker as it levels and does appropriate content. Even tanks feel more badass as you progress.

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Originally Posted by Edana

People are upset that monk is getting left out? That shit ha been happening since 3.0 anyone else remember the monk memes?

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I loved Monk in 3.0. There was nothing wrong with it. They fixed our TP issue and gave us a awesome 30 second AOE. I was happy.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I'd argue this is a major FFXIV problem, not just with Monk, although I haven't played BRD or MCH. Especially with tanks. Like on Warrior, you have 1-2-3 Butcher's Block, 1-4-5 Storm's Eye, 1-4-6 Storm's Path. There's very little variety and choice you can make. It's too simple. I could go on but I've already written a lengthy piece about tanks in general.

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But see this is what set monk apart. Out of all of the classes Monk was the fastest and it kept you busy! Now they threw a wrench in that system and I hate it. <.<

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Originally Posted by Awful

That is a pretty laughable excuse where you can compare monk to samurai where samurai does more dmg, no positionals and isn't even getting touched before Omega Savage, now that's pretty ridiculous, monk hasn't evolved it's taken a step backwards.

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More damage, has positionals akin to ninja, and no utility. I know monk needs love, and that hating samurai is such an in fashion thing, but at least say something accurate about what you hate instead of something you don't have a clue on.

In fact, since you don't like Samurai so much, and to anyone else who hates it, I have a question for you. Why would you ever bring a Samurai if it was even second in dps compared to other classes that bring some sort of utility, even as something 'minor' as Brotherhood in its current state?

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Why would you ever bring a Samurai if it was even second in dps compared to other classes that bring some sort of utility

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Yup. Welcome to the world of Monk back in HW when a lot of raids went with DRG/NIN because they needed the utility and Monk had barely any raid utility in comparison.

I have no problem with SAM, in fact I would be delighted if they didn't kill monks playstyle and SAM and Monk could compete for that "high damage no utility" spot in a raid. I mean heck, the way I see it is you got BRD/MCH, you got BLM/SMN, you got DRG/NIN. So WHY when they give us Monk/SAM they ruin Monk. I wouldn't even care if Monk was second by a little, as long as they both hold the same position in a raid, just freaking make it fun again.

I'm glad you like SAM. I'm glad you have that "selfish DPS" persona. Feels nice to be independent, yeah? Great for solo play when you don't have your DPS in abilities that buff others. I remember it well and believe me I'll miss it. You're gonna get a lot of hate for this, so you may as well get use to it. Just be the best you can until it's your DPS that is the utility they need. I'll likely try SAM myself, but it will be a sad departure from Monk.

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Originally Posted by Awful

That is a pretty laughable excuse where you can compare monk to samurai where samurai does more dmg, no positionals and isn't even getting touched before Omega Savage, now that's pretty ridiculous, monk hasn't evolved it's taken a step backwards.

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Samurai does have positionals though. If you argued Samurai's positionals don't matter as much since it's only 120 potency per 7 GCDs you'd be correct. But that doesn't mean True North does nothing for Samurai.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._have/dj4cggi/

At this point Monk is in a good place damage wise (I main Monk and can consistently score 90%+ on both Susano EX and Lakshmi, pretty much no one beats me in damage unless they're getting fed cards or I get screwed by mechanics), but it being in a good place in terms of damage doesn't actually mean it's good. Using Riddle of Fire just feels terrible. Going slow is the feeling of losing GL3 and that's the feeling of failure. Riddle of Earth and Brotherhood meanwhile both swing wildly in terms of how useful they are. Brotherhood basically does nothing in 4-mans unless you have both a Warrior for a tank and another Physical DPS (Which doesn't happen since the DF tries to pair you with a ranged, of which 3/5 are magical), while Riddle of Earth will basically just not work if it's been too long since you've refreshed it.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

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I'm well aware where monk was in Heavensward, And it sucked, since that was my best melee at the time, but people wanted to meme out monk because DRK was part of the tank meta. I however don't understand how monk was ruined, when monk is..well, it didn't change. At all in playstyle (aside from touch of death). I just think it didn't receive enough to make it interesting, or if we go by the paladin route, lost nothing while gaining buttons. In fact, if Brotherhood was changed in any one way for the better, they'd have that Monk/SAM thing you want, which, again, why would you ever bring samurai when monk is sam+1 then?

Granted I didn't get to 60 yet, so I will see what happens, but the data I have seen has showed that monk is barely behind samurai, with brotherhood almost pushing them over in 8 man content, but not quite. They're really close right now. And believe me, I've seen the hate and received it passive aggressively all of stormblood so far. I believe it's been exaggerated to the point of being ludicrous, if we go by data that is relevant, not 'lel I pad my numbers with astrologian and eating aoes'.

Fun is a thing, and definitely what should be changed on monk, imo. But when it comes to damage? You all need to calm down.

New skills doesn't help MNK evolves into the right direction.(only deep meditation trait is useful)
Hell,even Goon's dps are bad right now but I believe mirage's dive is the evolution DRG need.Mirage's dive makes DRG more fun to play and keep them busy since Goon have a lot of downtime.Nastround's mechanics is not bad but eye stacks should be permanent.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

I however don't understand how monk was ruined, when monk is..well, it didn't change. At all.

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This is part of our problem. It's easy to just look at the DPS numbers and say monk is in a decent place, it really is. But DPS isn't really the problem. These changes hit the people that have played monk for years. Monk was so streamlined in 3.x, it was hard to think that you could screw it up like this.

Lets see. I probably stopped playing for pretty much good at around February. I might've got on a few times during my college semesters between then and SB release but most of the time I went with SCH for queues because well DPS queues sucked and I didn't have time so thank god my 2nd fav class is a healer. Anyway. A good ~4 months without playing monk and I decide that at a week before SB release, I wanted to test my muscle memory with my Monk rotation... And so I did, and it was near perfect, I remembered everything, even the stuff I missed like Fracture.

With the SB abilities.. I mean I don't have brotherhood but what difference will that make, eh? The job is just. I only gained two abilities and a few traits and I can't even replicate the rotation I did a week before SB because it doesn't exist anymore. I can't improvise and whats worse is our "best buff" slows us down which throws me off every darn time. This isn't just a simple "add a few abilities to the existing rotation", no it's freaking gone.


edit1: Maybe I was a bit dramatic at the end there, but that's what it feels like.
edit2: Also I noticed how you responded and it forced me to reflect on my post. I wasn't at all being snarky with the whole "welcome to the world of Monk back in HW". I genuinely meant it... Lol.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Fun is a thing, and definitely what should be changed on monk, imo. But when it comes to damage? You all need to calm down.

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actually, most of us don't talk of the dps...

what we point out is the lack of evolution that the jobs did receive in the past 4 years, after 2 expansion, the jobs is still played like in ARR, the only difference is the loose of 2 dot.
what i feel was needed for allows the developement of the combo system, what i was expecting with sb... but in the end, we didn't get any of it...

the trouble with the design of monk is tie to 2 trouble actually:
1) the fact that is tailored for get a maximum of dps from auto attack (about 28-30% of our damage is from auto attack) because riddle of fire affect greatly the damage of the auto attack, you get a +75% damage for auto attack, what no other jobs get

2) to be a rogue, it's a freaking rogue... and a bad one at that.
the position of the monk only scream this, i'm a freaking rogue that attack with fist and kick and oversized fist weapon. (most of the time, i'm still waiting to have simple glove of battle... glove that replace our armor glove and that are our weapon... god is not that complicate)

what is defining the monk are two mechanic extremely important for our jobs:
1) the free form combo, allowing use to switch any skill of the same form for create our own combo
2) the grease lightning. more time spend to continue the combo allows us to hit harder and faster, getting more momentum as we fight longer

sadly the first didn't receive any change for 2 expansion and more of 10 major patch. and the second is a shackle that limitate what they can do... yes the idea behind grease lightning is interesting, but instead to add damage, it will have been better to simply add speed... and get trait and fist of fire adding the damage. it will have make the monk getting stronger because his attack not get more powerfull... but arrive faster as the time pass.

our damage must'nt be tie to a buff we must maintain... it don't make sense we are monk, a powerhouse, we are the fist of the destroyer... we are the destroyer power itself.

we have a lot of useless or barely usefull skill:
- fist of earth
- fist of wind
- arm of the destroyer
- one ilm punch

this four bad design choice that did lead them to add the riddle for justify the existance of bad design skill that are relic of the V1.

fist of fire, wind and earth in the V1 was adding elemental damage to our attack, allowing us to adapt ourself to the enemy weakness. (what was too the reason we was str/int based... *sighs*). the trouble is the weakness elemental was scraped out... and instead to take them out, they have give them... strange buff.

- fist of fire, like any decent monk know it is the main buff we will be on... all the time, since it increase our dps
- fist of earth, is a survival stance, a rest of the offtank role we had in the V1 (yes monk had even skill of enmity) can be usefull for like said before we barely use it... only for reduce the damage incoming... before be changed back into fist of fire.
- fist of wind, the most useless skill we do possess, it increase our run speed, but it's not even 10% (what the ninja do have...as trait... ) meaning it have barely any use as mobility buff...

in end we did get riddle for give this 3 skill more reason to exist... instead to work on them for make them better skill that are deserving to be into our toolkit.

an example for the fist of earth, while it is active, we can ignore position and the enemy is always considered like in the best position, while reducing our damage taken. it will have make it a solo stance or even a stance used for situation where is not possible to get the position and then cover for the loose of 5% of damage.
or make the fist of earth like the paladin skill 70, allowing the monk to absorb a part of the damage of the attack touching him... while charging chakra for each attack. it will have been a very strong skill for situation where we need a survival skill.

and i'm sure is possible to give more idea about what to do of this skill...
the trouble is the monk instead to receive this at the combat system rework... didn't get anything outside loose skill... what was shocking... since the monk was really needing a rework.

sadly, it seems the dev for the monk have no clear vision about what do with it.
no idea on how enhance the combo system, what was the simplest to do while combining chakra and gl with it... no...

even in hw we did receive skill that had a niche... tornado kick, it's a perfect example of what is wrong with the monk. our goal as monk is to maintain the GL buff, and here we get a skill that consume it... the idea behind is for allows the monk to consume the charge when he can't maintain it.
the trouble is this skill is a melee skill, why not make it a ranged skill, what will have broad his utility and make it more worth...

and sadly we can go on for age about all the trouble with the monk evolution...

and none of this is link to the dps... no one here is complaining about the dps.. we are complaining about the freaking 4 years of non evolution of our main tool. the freaking 4 years of monk being left out any serious work and more important about the clear disconnection between the monk playerbase and the dev team...

it's like they don't understand us... it's like they don't really understand our trouble our complain our need. we didn't need any utility... brotherhood was unneeded... we was needing a clear advantage to be bring to a raid, like the sam have, the sam have huge dps that is why people bring him.

and that what we was lacking, we was lacking a cutting edge dps for make it the other think... ok the monk don't bring buff, but if played well it will give us an advantage by bringing a tons of damage.
what anger the monk, is they did give us a broken utility skill, while creating a jobs that fit what we was wanting to be.
because the monk is the only blunt damage user, meaning none of our buff will be usefull for the group, i'm ready to throws out mantra and brotherhood if it means get a very strong dps that will make us have a place in raid. because soo far, we did loose our place... it's better to bring a sam with a nin that bring a monk with anything else.

do i want a nerf of the sam? no, i want a rework of the monk, no savage will make any of the skill they did added shine, nor make the monk more appealing... savage is for less of 8% of the community and must'nt be what is looked for decide if a jobs need to evolve!

because this 8% of the community is too generally the best of the best, then even if the jobs is hard to play, or too fast, they will master it!

do i want the monk to be hard to master? yes! god yes! i don't care if it means we get something more complex in terms of combo, if it means that at the end if i master it, i'm rewarded. i don't need a streamlined monk that even a children of 12 years can master.

the monk lack fun factor, lack evolution and lack challenge, until they understand this... the monk will be a dying jobs. now more than ever.. they need to take the time to talk with us, to understand our concern, to even do a poll about what we really want. for god sake... they to reconnect with us!

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Fun is a thing, and definitely what should be changed on monk, imo. But when it comes to damage? You all need to calm down.

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Ok you just lost my respect...

to be honest it doesn't surprise me. With every new expansion, jobs are getting either hit with the extreme nerf bat, or buffed to the sky without adjusting other jobs or balancing them correctly. I can't count how many times I did have to switch my mains, and mostly always a week or two weeks before actual content that matters is released. First it was PLD, then it was Astro, BRD now with SB I don't even know were to begin listing the problems that occurred throughout many of the jobs in general.

While I do like the expansion in general, I was very excited at the take of changing the whole combat system, even that gauge is a cute cosmetic addition, but one thing I wasn't very hyped about were the role skills. Now that they are released, I see that I wasn't very wrong with that, lots of the "uniqueness" of prior jobs have been stripped and their actions made role actions, some are so bad, that nobody would even take these roles since they don't do anything for them.

Not even 5 weeks into the expansion, we start nerfing cast times from pld as example, where was the warrior nerf the last 3 years as PLD was pretty much useless? I don't mind making adjustments, but nerfing classes and then re buffing them should all been happen during beta and not during expansions itself or 3 days before release of savage. And it's not just the pld so, anyways before I keep on my ramble, let me finish with this....

It doesn't come as an surprise to me, that MNK is being ignored, since their counterpart is the samurai and well we all know that the marketing department, did a pretty good job with hyping SAM and RDM up and that lead to a lot of sales, that without these new jobs probably wouldn't have happen. Good Business decision, sadly to say, it comes with a price, and that does effect the player base. Maybe not so much the new players, since all they know are the changes made in SB, but people that played much longer than that, don't find it much of enjoyment. Let's hope that can be changed into positive instead of making players have to switch their jobs. Just to find out that they get nerfed/buffed a month later, or find no "love" thrown their way lol.

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Originally Posted by Pence

You find MNK boring and unrewarding...

Perhaps don't play it?.....Simple solutions to a simple problem.

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player : i have a feedback about this thing

and then someone like you : no you are not allowed to give feedback just dont play it \ do it
my gods man these useless replies

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Not even 5 weeks into the expansion, we start nerfing cast times from pld as example

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Yeah, I'm personally of the opinion that we should not nerf unless it's truly necessary but it seems SE doesn't think so. I do feel for PLDs as it's sort of how we felt when they made stance dancing clunky for Warrior.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8...utu.be&t=4m55s

And I also don't really like hopping onto FoTM but it seems that's what MMOs like to do, so I don't blame those who do switch. Samurai just feels like a better Monk in a few ways. The DPS disparity in personal DPS, that was what Monk should have had. The fact that it has really awesome AoE (I mean Monk's AoE is still decent). And the fact that with Samurai there's no worry about losing GL3 (and their weaponskill speed boost lasts a lot longer).

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i feel yoshida and his team is too much focus on new player forgeting that some player are here, did support them for age and deserve an evolution of gameplay after soo long. I can't be the only monk main player that did feel soo much hurt by stormblood and the combat system revamp, where nothing was bring, nothing was solved, everything did stay the same... why?

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This is absolutely correct and especially on the back of the recent documentary which emphasized how much Yoshi's team appreciated the fans that were with them from the beginning. At the end of 3.0 we were promised utility after an expansion of #DELETEMNK and we got a 5% physical only buff that doesn't effect us. Sure, it's meant to affect chakra stacks but this is 1) RNG 2) Useless in a mage heavy party 3) completely overwritten by another monk if you have one in the same team. Ninja trick attack 10% to the whole team. How is this comparable?

So then we got to the balance patch, surely after the countless threads on Reddit and the discussions here that Monk needs .... something, that everyone hates Riddle of Fire, in last nights Live Letter I thought, surely, surely they'll do something now. They asked for feedback, we gave it. Yoshi says "just stick with it". It's one more slap in the face after a long, long time of promising change and delivering nothing.

Another thing that's insulting by Yoshi's comments that the slow debuff/ RoF is there to "not stress players" is how stressful the monk opener is now. You're literally down to the last 2 - 3 seconds of GL before you reapply after the opener, meaning if someone pulls aggro accidentally, or something unexpected happens, bye stacks. You cannot recover when you are literally punching through sludge.

I understand everyone is excited by Samurai, I understand that Samurai is the marketing job for $$ in new players for Stormblood. If they want Samurai to be the top DPS now then fine, okay. But couldn't this have happened with out completely trashing monk?

My only complaints with how Monk unfolded are:
-Why wasn't Fists of Fire turned into a trait like Ninja's Dripping Blades.
-Why do we still have Fists of Wind.
-Why didn't we get any new abilities, like a combo chain that guarantees a Chakra or something.
-Why do we have Steel Peek? It's such a random ability and hardly fits the Monk aesthetics. With the removal of the stun I'm shocked that we didn't get a new animation / skill name to replace this cling-on with.
-Why did we get Tackle Mastery? It's a complete joke. A 30 potency Fire Tackle isn't mastery, it's just a number buff. Earth Tackle - why do we knock a mob back and out of melee range when we just used a gap closer to get into melee with it? Wind Tackle / Riddle of Wind - Why do we get a 5 second window to Tackle again? Nothing dies in 5 seconds. What super niche situation was envisioned for this complete joke of a skill. The whole Tackle Mastery is a complete letdown.
-Why doesn't Riddle of Earth reset the GL timer on activation and again when hit. The value of this skill swings massively because we can have anywhere between 10 and 16 seconds left on GL at any given time (less when in RoF).
-Why was Tornado Kick left unchanged. This was our GL dump but now we have RoE - a skill that (sometimes) maintains GL in transitions so Tornado Kick, which already saw next to no use is now even less used.
-Why was Deep Meditation made a trait of 50% on a crit. Double rng for a core mechanic.

Actually I'm getting carried away. I must be more upset with Monk than I originally thought...

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Originally Posted by BucklesTrespen

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No! all your question are legitimate... when we look at the combat revamp that was done, we can't simply accept it without ask ourself...why?
i can add more why to your list:
- why didn't we get back simian strike back from the V1?
- why are we the only jobs that when mess up get punished? (gl stack lost is a heavy punishement and can happend easily)
- why are we the only jobs that don't have a ranged attack? (yes every jobs outside monk have a ranged attack, to add to the insult, the boss of the monk quest level 60 have a freaking ranged attack)
- why are we the only jobs that feel like out the place each time? (we don't get a clear role, even more now in SB, are we truely a dps? when we see that we do get a survival skill of tank i'm wondering)
- why we was left in this states after the combat revamp?
- why aren't we listened since we are technically the people that know the best the monk... since we play it a lot?
- why add utility to the monk when you add samurai that have no utility? (don't it will have been better to the monk to be the counter part of the sam, while making his damage resistance reduction apply for magic making the jobs be what the magical class need)

it's possible to continue... the trouble is, we don't have a clear discution with the dev team, it seems they get the feedback, but don't understand it... what is leading to that situation. i feel before do anything, they need to talk to us, to listen to us, since in the end...we will be the monk, we will be the one playing it. if it don't appeal us, it's pointless, if it feel bad for us to play it.... it's pointless.

i hope a community manager will pass this message to yoshida and his team, we are not appealing by the monk anymore, the jobs do his role, but is not fun. it's not appealing, it's not challenging, it's not evoluting anymore. we feel like the black sheep of the familly that don't deserve a decent treatment. like because we are top dps we don't need to be look at correctly... when it's not like this... if the other jobs evolve and we don't, you can't expect us to continue to stick to the job when every one evolve, change, get a feeling of progression.

please tell them we want to talk, we need to talk to have a clear discution between them and us. we feel disconnected, we feel abandonned, we feel left out. i'm not english then i can't even express correctly what i feel. exept i'm heartbroken to see the monk in this sorry states. i know that change can't be made in one week or 1 month... i'm not stupid i know it will take time, but at least... communicate with us, we are the community that can endure if you talk to us, if you show that you understand what we try desperatly to say to you.

monk need a serious rework... is not a balance patch, it's really a rework that it's needed... the rework we was deserving to receive with SB. and i doubt any monk will wait until the next expansion for see any change, you did reach a critical breaking point. after what was the situation of the end of hw.... we didn't get out of it, it's even worst... monk don't bring anything worth that justify his presence in group. he don't have a role definite, he don't have a clear identity anymore. it's time to work with us... than against us. please, pretty please.... don't leave u anymore in this mess.

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Originally Posted by Pence

You find MNK boring and unrewarding...

Perhaps don't play it?.....Simple solutions to a simple problem.

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i'm one of the people that did stick to monk for age and i'm not the only one in this case, when people like us feel that something is really wrong, not because the class did change, no because the class didn't change... it's extremely bad. say to that sort of people if you don't like don't play it... will only have one effect, less and less and less monk, until, it's too late and the jobs is not played anymore.

our population is slowly reducing with every patch now, to the point that it's not even a bother to say we don't need monk, that monk can be deleted... that it's the point we are.
we don't ask to be the top dps, we don't ask to be cheated or get the most attention because we don't like the change... but because sb didn't change anything, honestly speaking most of the add was... meh or even here for compensate of some loose from the combat system revamp.

then no your way to say it is only insulting to us... because right now, we are not simply saying: "warning what you plan to do is bad" no we are passed this time... it's: "it's critical, if you don't react, we will disappear"
yes a few new player will try monk, until they try another jobs and we will feel more rewarded for appealed to play.

because monk is not the only fast jobs anymore, ninja do it too and fairly well with that.

because monk is not the top dps anymore, sam it is and it deserve it.

because monk combo is not the top edge anymore, dragoon have a more evolued combo system than us.

because monk have nothing more than it defining him... because monk is now in a situation where utility will not help... we need a rework. we need to have a clear identity, what we don't have anymore!

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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You're right. All the points are legitimate, but one thing that confuses the heck outta me is the way that physical damage is broken up by type:
Slashing: PLD, WAR, DRK, NIN, SAM
Piercing: DRG, BRD, MCH (I think BRD/MCH use piercing, since they use arrows and gunshots. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here!)
Blunt: MNK

This creates a huge problem, because the piercing debuff of DRG will benefit your BRD/MCH (assuming BRD/MCH are piercing damage), creating some synergy, your slashing debuff of NIN (and WAR I think), synergises with the other tanks, and the SAM. MNK's blunt resistance down affects whom now... just them. SAM is the selfish DPS and gets boosted further by the synergy of a NIN or a WAR's slashing debuff. Which makes them even more powerful compared to MNK. Especially in higher tier play, synergy is a big factor. We need a good party makeup that works well with each other. I know you said we shouldn't wait until next expansion but here's what I would do, but it would have to be next expansion.
New healer: Dancer. Off-healer type role, their magic would be healing only, all attacks would be physical blunt damage and would be used to channel their healing power (thus giving them a reason to DPS!)
New tank: Not sure what tank you'd think of, but something that uses blunt weapons. Maybe make it defensive based like PLD?

This would then give the MNK some synergy with other jobs, and help give them a reason to exist. They would have other jobs that can match up with. I think this would go a long way to helping bridge the gap. There's many other issues here, but I feel this is one I can see the need addressing.

the solution for this is quite simple, make the blunt debuff affect to resistance to magic, saying that monk toss chi in his attack for reduce the resistance to magical damage behind... it don't solve all, but until more blunt jobs is added it the best solution.
it will open up more the team setup possibility.

i envision a rework, where we do loose our utility for become the counter part of the sam, when you team is more physical you go with sam, when you team is more magical you go with mnk. even if it don't make a lot of sense, it's the best way to solve a lot of actual trouble. while giving back a role to the monk.

because right now, please give me one reason valid to bring a monk in a group.... mantra? brotherhood? they are not strong enough for justify his presence.
ninja will bring more damage every minute, red mage buff is more interesting. in end everyone is better than us in everything we do... we don't shine in anything anymore. that why we are in this situation. we are not the top dps, we are not the most fast around, we are not the most usefull to the team...we are good in nothing. that the whole trouble.

before we did let it pass, because monk was decent in dps, but with the end of hw it was not the case anymore... and with the apparition of the sam, we did loose all purpose... and it's not utility we need, what we need it's to be a destroyer, what we need it's to be a powerhouse, what we was means to be from the start.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

because monk have nothing more than it defining him...

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actually we have something what define us, something what... well, repels most people actually

positionals, tons of them, something what for some reason a lot of people(except us monk mains) dislikes like hot lava

actually...dragoon have more than us now, with them skill they need to change 2 time of position in the same combo
they change for the 4th and the 5th skill of them combo. means if you start on the side, the 4th will ask to go back and the 5th will ask to be on the side.

ok meaculpa they did change this, but they change as much than us now :x

I ply drg so I'm use to positionals. I just never found mnk appealing. I remember in 2.0 that the mark of a great mnk was making your rotation fast enough to silence ADS but after that? Mnk just doesn't bring anything to the table, I think blunt damage has something to do with it. At least if it were piercing drg/mnk/brd/mch would be an interesting comp to play with. Or magic for mnk/Smn/rdm/blm. But right now, mnks don't bring anything.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

I ply drg so I'm use to positionals. I just never found mnk appealing. I remember in 2.0 that the mark of a great mnk was making your rotation fast enough to silence ADS but after that? Mnk just doesn't bring anything to the table, I think blunt damage has something to do with it. At least if it were piercing drg/mnk/brd/mch would be an interesting comp to play with. Or magic for mnk/Smn/rdm/blm. But right now, mnks don't bring anything.

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don't bring anything as good than the other and have a dps that is not that impressive... then *shrugs*

Brotherhood was supposed to be the answer to "Monks don't bring anything to the table". It's weaker than trick or litany (effects physical dps only) and is RNG effective to the monk player. Of course we used to have int down with dragon kick but that's gone.
Would you bring a monk for Brotherhood? No, probably not.

There are a lot of responses derived from emotion, opinion, speculation, assumptions, or suggestions for "fixes" that would make the job undeniably OP in this thread. The rotation hasn't changed. Greased Lightning is MNKs identity. The developers basically just said we're at the limit of speed and power they want us to go with GL, so in order to make it comparable with other classes, they had to mix up the rotations, (which really aren't different). SAM has no utility like where MNK was at in Heavensward, so it's kind of fair in a way for it to be top DPS, but that does not mean MNK isn't a powerhouse either. In some instances, yes, I've over taken some SAMs in 8-man content and I'm not one of the best MNKs out there by far.

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

There are a lot of responses derived from emotion, opinion, speculation, assumptions, or suggestions for "fixes" that would make the job undeniably OP in this thread. The rotation hasn't changed. Greased Lightning is MNKs identity. The developers basically just said we're at the limit of speed and power they want us to go with GL, so in order to make it comparable with other classes, they had to mix up the rotations, (which really aren't different). SAM has no utility like where MNK was at in Heavensward, so it's kind of fair in a way for it to be top DPS

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I don't think anyone hear argues that it makes sense for SAM to have the highest DPS, seeing as it doesn't seem to have much utility at all... Monks should be able to relate to this quite well when we were compared to DRG/NIN and often overlooked because we didn't have much utility, either.

Lemme tell you dude. There are many ways they could have lowered our DPS numbers to "make it more comparable" yet even as you say this, Monk still stands to be around 2nd best in terms of DPS, still. But again, this is hardly about DPS.

I don't see why having the Monk we had in HW would be a bad idea. So we'd be like SAM, great! In HW we were a black sheep that was often discarded for the utility that DRG/NIN offers, now we're not only lesser in DPS (which isn't as much of a problem for me as it is the people who are trying to find raid teams and are simply viewed as "less" than SAM) but the job just isn't very fun to play. I wouldn't raid with this job if someone paid me to.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

I don't see why having the Monk we had in HW would be a bad idea. So we'd be like SAM, great! In HW we were a black sheep that was often discarded for the utility that DRG/NIN offers, now we're not only lesser in DPS (which isn't as much of a problem for me as it is the people who are trying to find raid teams and are simply viewed as "less" than SAM) but the job just isn't very fun to play. I wouldn't raid with this job if someone paid me too.

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Yeah, they could've given us Super Blood for Blood with 30% damage and 45% additional damage taken.

MNK is still as fun, if not more so, than ever to me and I will be raiding with it still. From the looks of it, you haven't even been in the raiding scene, so why are you talking about it? As well as your comment on the forums here. "Raid job: Monk"

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

There are a lot of responses derived from emotion, opinion, speculation, assumptions, or suggestions for "fixes" that would make the job undeniably OP in this thread. The rotation hasn't changed. Greased Lightning is MNKs identity. The developers basically just said we're at the limit of speed and power they want us to go with GL, so in order to make it comparable with other classes, they had to mix up the rotations, (which really aren't different). SAM has no utility like where MNK was at in Heavensward, so it's kind of fair in a way for it to be top DPS, but that does not mean MNK isn't a powerhouse either. In some instances, yes, I've over taken some SAMs in 8-man content and I'm not one of the best MNKs out there by far.

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Monk's rotation has changed. They shortened it when they removed Touch of Death and Fracture, but unlike Dragoon or Ninja we didn't have anything reworked to make up for our lost GCD (Ninja gets a second Gust Slash before using Dancing edge, DRG gets a second combo finisher on its combos through Lance Mastery). We're the only Melee job that just had our rotation shortened without something being slid in to replace it.

Greased Lightning is Monk's identity, yes, and Riddle of Fire eliminates the most tangible part of it by reducing the haste of it massively making the job feeling jarring every 90 seconds. Worse, it makes Demolish's timing rather awkward and can force clipping of it several times in the fight in order to ensure that it isn't dropped without giving us a way to delay it to prevent this without Fracture or Touch of Death. It's basically the exact same as Blood for Blood except using my Blood for Blood equivalent makes me feel like I'm punching underwater and I have less control over my rotation without Fracture and ToD despite now needing it more than ever because of the slowdown.

Brotherhood is at best, just okay. It's trash in 4-mans because of how unlikely it is for you to get paired with another physical job (I'm fairly certain the DF prioritizes queuing Melee with Ranged, so we've got a 3/5 chance of getting a caster and a 2/3 chance of getting a magic using tank) so at best it will only give you 2 or three chakras, which is less than you'll get from Rockbreaker spam. In 8-mans it's usefulness swings wildly with how many physical DPS are in the party which locks Monk into physical heavy party compositions for both personal damage and raid contribution.

As for Monks personal damage, I couldn't care less. If Samurai is the new "All damage, no buffs" class then good for it, I sincerely hope it doesn't fall into the issues Monk had doing that in Heavensward.

In pretty much every way I wish I could just play Heavensward Monk again, because Stormblood Monk just feels like a regression of it, not like it's progressed.

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

MNK is still as fun, if not more so, than ever to me and I will be raiding with it still.

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You are a minority. You are a minority within another minority.

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

From the looks of it, you haven't even been in the raiding scene, so why are you talking about it? As well as your comment on the forums here. "Raid job: Monk"

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Welp, you know how to lose ones respect quite quickly, huh?

I've personally always thought MNK was boring as heck to play, the rotation was braindead and on a basic level - was exceptionally easy to play for a melee.
That's why I chose to never main it, and I only ever jump on it when I feel like mixing things up.
So the job itself already fits into the Stormblood goal of making classes easy to play for the amateur or the elite.

However jobs like DRG got a rather large gameplay nerf from Stormblood in my opinion, and in my eyes that calls for a bigger focus than MNK.
The reason I say this is that MNK has always been easy to play, and fairly uninteresting in my eyes - so if players choose to play that job through ARR & HW, then why be annoyed that it didn't get massive overhauls?

Back to DRG briefly though, the removal of Skogul consuming BotD timer, and removing the RNG-ness of the 4th stage combos (Fang & Wheeling), among other things, simplified that job way too much.

I generally like to avoid the "X job is fine, because Y job has bigger issues" arguments, however I will in this case - because MNK hasn't changed really - and many of those who mained it in HW will probably still enjoy maining it in SB.
DRG however? I know more DRGs that have jumped (no pun intended) ship than any other job, simply because of the gameplay nerfs.

My main point here is probably more along the lines of -
Just be happy it didn't get a gameplay nerf like some other jobs out there. It fortunately didn't really change, which means it didn't lose anything - where a number of other jobs did.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Just be happy it didn't get a gameplay nerf like some other jobs out there. It fortunately didn't really change, which means it didn't lose anything - where a number of other jobs did.

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It did get a gameplay nerf, though, but this depends on how you define "gameplay nerf". If you define it by changed skills, then yeah it did. Arguably our most three important skills; Dragon Kick, Forbidden Chakra, and Demolish were all nerfed, some more than others. Personally how I define gameplay nerf is just exactly that: gameplay. The darn job isn't fun anymore, I'd rather level SAM. Heck the new abilities feel like nerfs compared to what they could be and what Monk needed, NOT what the players that SE thought needed Monk to be easier. I mean heck, our opener got chopped and we now have this gap that we have to try and fill.

I really don't understand how you can say Monk hasn't changed when it's at its lowest point EVER. However, I have noticed a slight trend in this particular opinion among players that don't main Monk or at least haven't in HW to feel this transition.

We lost our INT debuff, one of Monk's only raid utility. We lost Touch of Death, our simple lvl 15 skill that would be useful right about now to ensure we don't clip so much. We lost a stun, reducing Steel Peack to a awkward stationary shoulder tackle that still looks like it ought to be a stun. We lost three seconds of Demolish, We lost some potency on Forbidden Chakra, dramatically reducing the hype that we can effectively spam it with the blessing of RNG. We lost the need for TP without our lovely DoTs, making purification utterly useless - haven't used it once since SB was released, not even when spamming Rockbreaker.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

We lost our INT debuff, one of Monk's only raid utility. We lost Touch of Death, our simple lvl 15 skill that would be useful right about now to ensure we don't clip so much. We lost a stun, reducing Steel Peack to a awkward stationary shoulder tackle that still looks like it ought to be a stun. We lost three seconds of Demolish, We lost some potency on Forbidden Chakra, dramatically reducing the hype that we can effectively spam it with the blessing of RNG. We lost the need for TP without our lovely DoTs, making purification utterly useless - haven't used it once since SB was released, not even when spamming Rockbreaker.

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Wow all that baby rage.

The job has barely changed when it comes to gameplay. Even the OP flat out stated it.

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

Monk literally has had ZERO new abilities aside from off gcds, ZERO changes in rotation since 2.0, SE takes away our dot management and slows down the class with a heavy debuff and gives the excuse "in case players are stressed".

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The removal of INT debuff isn't gameplay. Does it actually affect the fact that you would be pressing DK in your rotation at all? No it doesn't.
Guess what? DRG lost their version of Steel Peak too.
You lost your long-duration DoT (ToD). Newsflash - so did many other jobs. Is that really a gameplay change? Not in my eyes. Especially considering MNK's DoT was 30 seconds, you lost 1 button that you pressed every 30 seconds. Big freaking whoop.
Demolish reduced by 3 seconds? Wow totally huge gameplay adjustment /facepalm.
No DPS runs into TP issues anymore. You're not alone there.

Look dude, MNK's "gameplay" is almost no different. That was the OP's whole point.

If you think MNK is boring now, you should have thought it was boring in HW and ARR too.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

You are a minority. You are a minority within another minority.

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That's your opinion and quite frankly, to imply that it's so minor that it shouldn't matter shows your toxicity.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

Welp, you know how to lose ones respect quite quickly, huh?

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I called you out on your hypocrisy of your statement and this is your response? Yeah... I really don't give a damn about your respect.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Wow all that baby rage.

The job has barely changed when it comes to gameplay. Even the OP flat out stated it.

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Actually it's changed immensely, in a way similar to how Ninja has through the removal of 2nd tier Shadow Fang and Mutilate. You now only have cycles of exactly 3 weaponskills, rather than being able to stretch each cycle from 3 to 5 GCDs. This means that rather than having complete control, within any given GCD, of your clipping, you now have control only within 3 GCDs. Let's put it this way. Previously, you had two tactical filler skills, neither of which were a tremendous DPS bonus over time and therefore could even be delayed for GCD or two to circumvent positional lost, so long as they didn't desync over the fight, available per 18 and 30s. These allowed you to use Demolish not only per 9 or 12 GCDs, where all but set SS levels cause clipping or neglect, but anywhere from 7 to 14 GCDs. More importantly, though, this had a heavy impact on your 15s durations, Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes, which now suffer from 2 GCDs of neglect or must be clipped 2 GCDs short. Certainly, one could just take the compromise on the chin so long as the numbers are still there, but those who were already used to controlling their rotation through the two stance-less skills as never to waste DK/Twin uptime, all without pushing back Demolish, likely will and probably should feel cheated.

I'm curious as to what you consider gameplay. To me, rotational control certainly contributes a large part of that. So does the viability and accessibility of cleave dps (e.g. multi-DoTing). The extension or reduction of (de)buff windows is immensely affective to rotation; I don't know how someone who's played a class windowed by one or more DoTs could fail to see that.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Look dude, MNK's "gameplay" is almost no different. That was the OP's whole point.

If you think MNK is boring now, you should have thought it was boring in HW and ARR too.

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From any perspective but aesthetics, gameplay now is about as similar to ARR Dragoon as it is to ARR Monk. And as Stormblood has since worked almost solely to the effect of devaluing Heavensward Monk tools as they amount to actual choices and button-presses (gameplay rather than mere numbers), it's far from unchanged since then, either.

I get the feeling that you either didn't play much Heavensward Monk or have yet to play it in Stormblood...

I'm not saying the latter is outright horrible, but it has arguably less complexity, and certainly less control, than it did in ARR. (Which actually didn't increase by all that much in Heavensward; it just filled out areas in which we previously had no control or contribution, in an minimalistic but intelligent manner.)

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Their idea behind Stormblood was that you should be able to play any role job without too much consequence.
They also said they wanted to decrease the difference between "casual" players and "elite" players.
I don't see much of this actually implemented with Stormblood at all.

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And MNK is like the 2nd best DPS after Samurai, your proposed changes would make them more powerful as a consequence. Monks don't need more power.

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

Greased Lightning is MNKs identity. The developers basically just said we're at the limit of speed and power they want us to go with GL

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My interpretation is that GL4 would further the "extreme DPS disparity". I'm fairly certain they could have given us GL4 instead of Riddle of Fire, but the reason they didn't is because it's already punishing to lose GL3. And in my opinion, that's SE's fault for not lowering the CD on PB or giving us a skill to freeze stacks. I don't think that would necessarily make Monk overpowered. What I mean is it should be easier to hold onto stacks, but not necessarily guaranteed you'll never lose them.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Just be happy it didn't get a gameplay nerf like some other jobs out there. It fortunately didn't really change, which means it didn't lose anything - where a number of other jobs did.

If you think MNK is boring now, you should have thought it was boring in HW and ARR too.

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I don't quite agree with that. It feels like the dev team focused too much on Samurai and Red Mage. I think every job deserves to get some love.

I do still enjoy MNK for the same reasons I did in late Heavensward. I just don't like how punishing it is. I know Dragoon has it even worse though. It's just Ninja and Samurai have the least problems with phase changes, and somehow that doesn't feel balanced.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Actually it's changed immensely, in a way similar to how Ninja has through the removal of 2nd tier Shadow Fang and Mutilate. You now only have cycles of exactly 3 weaponskills, rather than being able to stretch each cycle from 3 to 5 GCDs. This means that rather than having complete control, within any given GCD, of your clipping, you now have control only within 3 GCDs.

I'm curious as to what you consider gameplay. To me, rotational control certainly contributes part of that.So does the viability and accessibility of cleave dps (e.g. multi-DoTing). The extension or reduction of (de)buff windows is immensely affective to rotation.



From any perspective but aesthetics, gameplay now is about as similar to ARR Dragoon as it is to ARR Monk. And as Stormblood has since worked almost solely to the effect of devaluing Heavensward Monk tools as they amount to actual choices and button-presses (gameplay rather than mere numbers), it's far from unchanged since then, either.

I get the feeling that you either didn't play much Heavensward Monk or have yet to play it in Stormblood...

I'm not saying the latter is outright horrible, but it has arguably less complexity, and certainly less control, than it did in ARR. (Which actually didn't increase by all that much in Heavensward; it just filled out areas in which we previously had no control or contribution, in an minimalistic but intelligent manner.)

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Firstly I respect your post a lot more than I respect the baby rager's post before it. Your comments actually read with intelligence.

You're right, I haven't played any of SB's MNK because it has always been the least interesting melee DPS job in my eyes. I did dabble in 3.0 MNK from time to time, but it was indeed a rarity.
My major point here is that the changes in MNK gameplay is insignificant compared to a lot of the jobs that got changed. From a technicality standpoint, sure I will give you that - they recieved some adjustments that slightly decreased their gameplay, however if the belief is that it is anywhere near on the scale as the many other jobs that people are complaining about - I can't agree there.

I do consider rotational control a part of gameplay, however I still don't see how it's immensely different to 2.0 & 3.0 MNK.
You do a couple of less skills? Big whoop. The job has always been extremely rotational and pressing 3 combos repeatedly isn't much different to pressing 5 combos repeatedly.
I mean, do you even notice the "rotation"? Because when it feels like I am just pressing the button that will give me the buff/DoT that's about to fall off.

If the argument is that it hasn't seen gameplay BUFFS since ARR, then I would agree, however I can't actually get on board with you and say that it has changed a whole lot - which would constitute gameplay nerfs.

Just compare the changes to MNK to the changes that DRG saw.
Sure they gained a rage-like stance similar to SMN, however their interplay of actually having to dance around and pay attention with Fang/Wheeling, or the removal of pushing as many skoguls without dropping BotD, paired with their 827398138912638 skill "rotation" (which in my eyes no longer becomes a rotation), down to simple 1-2-3-4-5 combos with a few OGCD weaves when they come off cooldown.. MNK is not even in the competition by this point.
This doesn't even mention that many of the "gameplay nerfs" that MNK recieved, DRG as well.

Again, if your argument is that MNK didn't see many gameplay improvements over the years since ARR, I would agree. However I can't agree that the loss of a few skills and a rather slight adjustment to their very static, short rotation is really a huge enough change to baby rage about (which I notice you're not doing, and can respect).

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

My interpretation is that GL4 would further the "extreme DPS disparity". I'm fairly certain they could have given us GL4 instead of Riddle of Fire, but the reason they didn't is because it's already punishing to lose GL3.

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I'd be more willing to wager it's because of an additional full-time 10% damage increase and -5% weaponskill recast. The struggle is maintaining GL and an additional stack of that wouldn't make it any easier to maintain that. If GL fell off a stack at a time, there wouldn't be a problem with maintaining it and Perfect Balance could potentially have some more uses aside from saving it purely for if GL fell off.