Some healers make me panic

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

"Reasonably". If the tanks dying because the healer is prioritizing their own meter instead of their job, then they are objectively failing to do their one job as a healer and should be promptly replaced at the first opportunity.

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Under the assumption that the tank has done everything they could, yes. Chances are that is not the case, and the tank should be replaced.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I personally generally start hard-casting heals at the 50% HP mark unless I have CDs up - Not because I need to, but precisely because I know tanks tend to panic when their HP gets much lower. If I let them drop much lower, they commonly start using all their CDs at once >_> But casting any earlier could be overheal if I crit.

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Same. If a tank can't handle being at 50% HP, they need more practice.

Can the tank community please decide on a consensus. Do you want us healers to push DPS or not? We get shit on and yelled at if we do or if we don't and it is kupoing annoying.

If you don't die then suck it up and keep moving. We care about your HP not your feelings.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Under the assumption that the tank has done everything they could, yes. Chances are that is not the case, and the tank should be replaced.

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Sorry, but if I die after using my two equilibrium, Vengeance, Anticipation, Rampart, ToB+Conv, Holm, and even raw intuition depending on how many mobs are still alive, I'm definitely going to be kicking the healer. :3 Or ignoring their requests for megapulls because they clearly can't handle it.

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Originally Posted by Maku

Can the tank community please decide on a consensus. Do you want us healers to push DPS or not? We get shit on and yelled at if we do or if we don't and it is kupoing annoying.

If you don't die then suck it up and keep moving. We care about your HP not your feelings.

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You seem to misunderstand. Party DPS is priority.
If you do something like Holy, Holy, Cure II, Cure II and my hp gets low, I am very likely to use clemency instead of eclipse, causing a dps loss. If I'm on war, the low hp might make me kite and cause some AoE attacks from the DPS classes to not hit all targets.

Alternatively, you could have cast Holy, cure II, holy, cure II, and provided identical dps contribution for the same time period, without me casting clemency or kiting, which would have resulted in better party dps.

Don't let us go low just because

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Seriously, you're worried about clipping Aero buffs that you want to wait to heal the tank?

*sigh* That one or two ticks of Aero is... what a couple hundred damage? That is NOT going to make the dungeon any shorter whatsoever... meanwhile, the tank decides that he's too low and decides to pop a Clemency which then prevents him from using Requiscat sooner which is far more damaging than a tick or two of Aero.

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The only class who would have this issue is PLD. I mean sure if you want to waste a clemency after 5 minutes in a dungeon, where I have yet to let you die.

Again, I said if the RATE of damage is LOW, I really don't care if they hit 20%. Taking 2% a second for example, because all of the mobs are dead but one.

If a tank pld wants to punish him/herself because I am using my tools effectively, suck it up or "go in with your own healer."

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Originally Posted by winsock

You seem to misunderstand. Party DPS is priority.
If you do something like Holy, Holy, Cure II, Cure II and my hp gets low, I am very likely to use clemency instead of eclipse, causing a dps loss. If I'm on war, the low hp might make me kite and cause some AoE attacks from the DPS classes to not hit all targets.

Alternatively, you could have cast Holy, cure II, holy, cure II, and provided identical dps contribution for the same time period, without me casting clemency or kiting, which would have resulted in better party dps.

Don't let us go low just because

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That is not how a proper healer would do any of what you just said. Especially an AST.
I will let you get as low as is safe while I pump out DPS when I have the whole party (including myself) under a balance or an arrow. Curing during either of those would give me a DPS lose. If you start to kite you are a HORRIBLE TANK!!! Kiting will never save the tank. If you cast clemency because "you" get scared that is your own fault for not trusting your healer.

Just like a new boy friends or girl friend you shouldn't assume that a new healer is as poor as your past healers and trust them until they fail your trust.

I can heal you from near 0 to full with one oGCD on WHM, and in the same time frame as 1 GCD on AST. My DPS spamming out does your one use of clemency over a DPS spell and thus it is a DPS gain for the party.

Good healers who push DPS burst heal. Your idea of DPS,cure,DPS,cure is a total DPS loss of the party.

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Originally Posted by Maku

That is not how a proper healer would do any of what you just said.
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Good healers who push DPS burst heal. Your idea of DPS,cure,DPS,cure is a total DPS loss of the party.

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Explain how:
Holy, Cure II, Holy, Cure II
is less effective than
Holy, Holy, Cure II, Cure II

This is the exact same amount of healing and damage. The tanks hp just doesnt drop as far with the first option.

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If you start to kite you are a HORRIBLE TANK!!! Kiting will never save the tank. If you cast clemency because "you" get scared that is your own fault for not trusting your healer.

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Do you play tank at all? Kiting will save the party from a wipe in a pinch.
Ex: Does your tank start taking more damage during the pull, or after he stops?
Are we playing the same game?
Kiting will reduce incoming damage. It is a last resort, but can save engagements that would otherwise end in a wipe.

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Just like a new boy friends or girl friend you shouldn't assume that a new healer is as poor as your past healers and trust them until they fail your trust.

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Did you level your level 60 tank completely through fates / PoTD? I am having a serious time believing you have tanked anything... or have done any serious pulls.

Immediately trusting a PUG healer is just asking for a wipe.

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My DPS spamming out does your one use of clemency over a DPS spell and thus it is a DPS gain for the party.

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How about single target? Or what if im playing WAR?

Who the hell starts to kite because their health is 30-50%?

I had a healer try to DPS + heal me when they first did the healing nerf, it didn't go so well. First mob I died, then after that I started watching my health bar. Was slightly stressful at first, but no deaths after that point.

It is boring keeping a tank at >50% HP all the time. I enjoy dpsing because it gives me something to do and I have a few things in my kit that will instantly bring the tank/party health back up. Tanks have cooldowns too. I'd think y'all be bored never popping those as well. That said, I have overextended and wiped the party before. I learn from it and keep enjoying my job.

As long as I don't die, then it's ok.

If you're a pld just clemency your bum, if the healer complains, tell him whats on your mind about his dpsin and him noticing you low as hell and he uses his panic healing cause he went tunnel vision, same thing for warrior, pop inner beast, equilibrium and a max potion, won't give as much as clemency spam, but its gonna ease your mind and tell the healer 'Heal me k?'.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

If you're a pld just clemency your bum, if the healer complains, tell him whats on your mind about his dpsin and him noticing you low as hell and he uses his panic healing cause he went tunnel vision, same thing for warrior, pop inner beast, equilibrium and a max potion, won't give as much as clemency spam, but its gonna ease your mind and tell the healer 'Heal me k?'.

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And DRK is pretty much screwed, DA Soul Eater is laughable at best, and DA + AD is only effective in large groups, and not very effective to begin with.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Except clemency heals for less than half a cure 2. So you lose 2 paladin gcd vs just 1 healer gcd.

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Not with slaying accessories, it doesn't. With Req-Conv I crit Clemency for 24k, or hit for 14k+ with Req alone. That is damn close to the healing of a Cure II, and regular hit to regular hit outperforms Adloquiem.

Why are people so apt to forgo primary stat for a mere extra couple GCDs of health, when the difference in accessories could make back that freed healer time every Requiescat, on top of better holding enmity and contributing damage? Its like somehow trading Mind for Piety. Boggles the mind.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Not with slaying accessories, it doesn't. With Req-Conv I crit Clemency for 24k, or hit for 14k+ with Req alone. That is damn close to the healing of a Cure II, and regular hit to regular hit outperforms Adloquiem.

Why are people so apt to forgo primary stat for a mere extra couple GCDs of health, when the difference in accessories could make back that freed healer time every Requiescat, on top of better holding enmity and contributing damage? Its like somehow trading Mind for Piety. Boggles the mind.

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They make lvl 70 str accessories with tenacity? Also, this thread has nothing to do with vit vs str argument.

We're gonna go on a fun roller coaster ride full of thrills, that includes leaving you nearly dead and then popping instant heals! : D
Just kidding, but I always make sure the Tank lives, just adding bits more of dps rather than interrupting my flow to keep 'em above 20% feels a bit more fulfilling.

I'd rather a healer let me die trying to push out damage than keep me alive while not putting out much at all. At least the former shows some desire to improve themselves and their efficiency.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

They make lvl 70 str accessories with tenacity? Also, this thread has nothing to do with vit vs str argument.

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Ctrl-F "tenacity". Yours is the first mention of it in the entire thread. So why would Tenacity need to be relevant to what I said despite my and the person I quoted having made no mention of it?

Any argument of output is based first upon whether or not someone is using their output stats. If they are not actually maximizing their attack power, their metrics in judging a skill's strength generally or relative to other jobs is skewed. As it was in the reply I quoted, likely because they were taking a non-main stat (Vitality) over one that actually affects output (Strength).

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Tank and Healer make a team, and this team functions far better when they trust each other. Sure, they can just go lone wolf towards each other, but that\\\\\\'s not productive for anybody in the group. When I'm treating the thing as if I'm trying to solo heal myself, I'm wasting a LOT of DPS output doing it.

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Considering we are talking about a decent amount of trash mobs, healer dps ALWAYS takes priority. Tanks aoe dps doesn't compare and they should focus on healing themselves and mitigating so healers can dps. Vice versa on single targets. I will always take a back seat if I see a stance dancing tanking to make run faster, while weaving in dps when it's safe.

General rule: Are you dead? No? Great

Are you constantly dying? Then its a problem on either your end (gear sucks, mitigation is nonexistent, or too big of pulls for your current group) or the healers fault.

When I play as my Scholar alt, I get into these weird situations, where the tank will take barely any damage, so I swap to doing some DPS... only for them to suddenly be half dead when I look to them about 5 seconds later.

Might just me being a bad healer, though.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/...5/49205615.jpg

I'm thorn on this topic.

As a SCH, I hate that I will throw Excogitation at a tank when he is almost 50% HP and they panic, clicking every single cooldown, never ever getting to 50%HP and therefore never procing the 650 potency heal, wasting my Aetherflow.

As a WAR, I hate that Upheaval becomes worthless if my HP is not high enough, a skill I feel should be ideally always be kept on cooldown. Paladins also have a similar issue with Spirits Within.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

You know what's fun? Be in voice chat with your healer. When you hear them screaming in terror when you're at 20%, you may proceed to panic. Their butt is clenching just as tight as yours at this point. xDD

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LOL I do this to one my tanks all the time on discord, all I hear is mase..mase.MASE! MASE!!

In dungeons I just pretend I don't have a healer and clemency if I fall below 30%. too many deaths to careless or lagging healers in the past to not make use of my own kit :/

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Originally Posted by Maku

Can the tank community please decide on a consensus. Do you want us healers to push DPS or not? We get shit on and yelled at if we do or if we don't and it is kupoing annoying.

If you don't die then suck it up and keep moving. We care about your HP not your feelings.

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DPS away, brah. If I live, you're a hero. If I die, you suck. If you can handle those extremes, then do your thing, baby.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

DPS away, brah. If I live, you're a hero. If I die, you suck. If you can handle those extremes, then do your thing, baby.

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You're my hero.

On a real note: most the confusion of when we healers should heal comes from people who don't know healers kits. Each healer has what I call a burst healing rotation that can instantly heal a VIT tank to full from pretty much 1hp. If people understood this and how we utilize it, I think things would be much better. That being said, I have tried to explain this in various areas but of course there are people who ignore it and say I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Alternatively do what I do: When you drop quietly give them a death glare and huff at friends. *snip*

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Thanks for idea for a macro, Thunda Cat!

/em Kacho gives <t> a death glare
/wait 2.5
/say Have you ever tried tanking with a dented codpiece?
/angry

I find this thread really interesting as I just finished reading basically the counter-argument on the healer boards. I'd encourage anyone to read both threads to get some enlightening perspective.

There's such a distinction between good healers/tanks and bad healers/tanks right now. Someone earlier basically said to read the situation. If the first dungeon pull is a double pull, I get my fairy going fast with Rouse/Whispering Dawn while I lay out Shadowflare, start DoT's and see how the tank is doing. If they're sustaining well, then it gives me an idea that I can possibly DPS a bit more and keep an eye out the rest of the pull to adjust. If they struggle early, i bypass most all DPS other than Shadowflare and turn into more of a healbot. In Stormblood content I try not to let tanks sustain below 50%...I've seen people drop too fast from there. In older content, that threshold is a little lower, but not if I know there are heavy hitters.

The flip side is last night I struggled incredibly to keep my tank alive in Bardham's. I had cycled through all CD's including Eos cooldowns...spamming as fast as I could, and still lost the tank. While physick spamming I didn't see any CD's and he was in DPS stance. So reading the situation is definitely both ways. Tanks DPS as much as you can, but if your healer is spamming heals and can't get you over about 30-40% may consider tank stance again :p

Healer/tank is such a team, and it's great when you just get a feel on the first pull that you two are in sync and can push each other!

All of this is fine until you lose each other's trust. It's one thing if you all know each other, it's another in a basic pug.

You can deal 5% less DPS to keep someone at safe levels, and you're going to have a much smoother run than if you really have to cast that last Bio when the guy's already sub 20%, regardless of what you have up.

The better the tank trusts you, the more planned the cooldowns are, which means the less spikey the damage is, which means the smoother you can damage and heal.d

And trust in a pug is both easily given and easily lost.

Edit:

Bardram's is a terrible spike in incoming damage as well. There's more ranged mobs, there's absurd AoE sizes (not necessarily damage) and for every small 'aoe pack' there's a big mob that has a heavy auto and a heavy swing.

I ran Leveling today as a WHM.

Got Sohm Al (Normal).

Tank proceeds to run straight ahead; I barely got Protect out before he moved out of range. He throws his shield and keeps on going, pulling not two, but THREE (IIRC) groups, going clear up to where those poison plants are.

Thing is..... one of the DPS were AFK.

I'm spamming Cure IIs on him left-and-right like crazy, which means I am doing zero DPS and I even had to blow Largesse, Benediction, Asylum, and Lucid Dreaming and nobody died but we came out of that with me having 30% MP left. The fight just went on and on and on and on because we were a DPS short.

We vote-kicked the AFK DPS and got a replacement, and the rest of the run went fairly smooth, and thankfully the tank learned his lesson and only pulled 2 groups thereafter. I had to use more Benedictions and Lucid Dreams than I normally do and I wasn't really enjoying it much because it left me with zero DPS time from chain-casting the cures.

Turns out, at the last boss, the tank rolled Need on the sword... apparently he was still leveling and didn't overgear the instance, but yet he thought pulling 3 groups from the start was a good idea. Ya.

Anyways, I say this because I really can't understand healers letting tanks almost die. You have such a low margin of error, especially if the tank isn't level/item sync'd for the instance. Whenever I started casting Cure II when he was at 50%, it landed when he was but 2 seconds from death. It was just a chain of Cure2 Cure2 Cure2 Cure2 Cure2 and I didn't even have enough GCD time to throw a Regen let alone any DPS.

And there are healers who don't even start casting until 30%? Oi. That's asking for trouble. There's a reason why some tanks panic when their healers let them get that low. One bit of lag, or having to move out of an AoE, etc... and the tank is gonna be dead in that sort of situation.

EDIT: And the tank was indeed using his defensive cooldowns. Dunno if optimally, as I was more watching my Cast Timer and spamming the Cure2 button, but I do recall seeing Conva, Rampart, and on that first pull he even blew his Hallowed Ground.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Got Sohm Al (Normal).

Tank proceeds to run straight ahead; I barely got Protect out before he moved out of range. He throws his shield and keeps on going, pulling not two, but THREE (IIRC) groups, going clear up to where those poison plants are.

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Sohm Al (Normal) actually only allows you to pull 2 groups at once. There's a barrier every two groups in that dungeon. First one is plants, then thorns, then fire, then ice, then solid rock. The most enemies you can have in one pull is 8 - that's two gaelicats, two Ochus, two buzzards and two Drakespurs. Unless you count the ice sprites at the Ice dragon separately.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Sorry, but if I die after using my two equilibrium, Vengeance, Anticipation, Rampart, ToB+Conv, Holm, and even raw intuition depending on how many mobs are still alive, I'm definitely going to be kicking the healer. :3 Or ignoring their requests for megapulls because they clearly can't handle it.

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If you can use all that and things still aren't dead, it's the dps you should be replacing.

I think tanks need to learn to let go because your uneasy feeling and panic reactions can never help in the presence of an actual incompetent healer. This is why, as a healer main, making a tank feel comfortable is a rather stupid thing to consider addressing at all. If you're a PLD and start to panic, you can start using Clemency to stay on the safe side and lose out on DPS. You can get mad at me for making you feel that way but guess what? I was pushing more DPS because of it and if you want me to play conservatively across the board, that's a DPS loss as well. The real issue is then only between who gets to do the DPS. It's easy to keep you above 50%, hell even above 75%. It's our job to understand the rate that you're losing HP, and the rate you're about to be losing HP above all else. Where you are on the HP bar is quite irrelevant as long as it's above zero. If you're a DRK/WAR (and PLDs can still react like this too) the only other action you can take if you feel uncomfortable is pop your level 50 cooldown. And is that so bad? Pre 4.0 as WHM, I'd for SURE say tanks must pop their CD's before Benediction because it was on a stupidly long cooldown. Now, WHM's consider this skill worth using intentionally after letting tanks HP drop below 10% while DPSing. It's still a 180 second cooldown so it can't be used every pull, but know that it's there and aggro WHMs will use it intentionally and efficiently.

I used to main resto shaman durinng WoD and Legion and raiding on normal and sometime heroic and let me tell you something, in wow no one care if a healer doing dps in between their healing rotation but in ff 14 a healer that can judge when to dps correctly is considered a good team player as our off-battle healing is kinda fast.

SE trying to push a more dynamic apporach to holy trinity as your ability to do rotation under stress and synergizing with your team are the core value of good player

Feels bad when you holgang at hp 20% and then get locked and healer used all his big heals on you but you still locked and get hit by triple aoe and died instantly 1 sec after

Happen to me on level 65 dungeon those damn stone monster

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Sohm Al (Normal) actually only allows you to pull 2 groups at once. There's a barrier every two groups in that dungeon. First one is plants, then thorns, then fire, then ice, then solid rock. The most enemies you can have in one pull is 8 - that's two gaelicats, two Ochus, two buzzards and two Drakespurs. Unless you count the ice sprites at the Ice dragon separately.

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It looked like 3 groups, maybe it was only 2. I just remember there being mobs everywhere and I could barely keep up with the incoming damage while being Level Sync'd, spamming Cure IIs as fast as I could possibly cast them, and not having enough time to spend a GCD to Regen (or use any other GCD) whatsoever.

I really wish people wouldn't worship the DPS meter so much.

Honestly.



Yes, Healers do have the ability to throw out some DPS, but this should never be the Healer's #1 job. Some healers act like throwing Cures is a secondary reason as to why they are there, and this is spawning the mentality you see in some replies above (like EbonySeraphim's, though they are hardly the only one).

Your job as a healer, is Cure First. Sorry, that's how it is. You are not there to be a DPS. You can throw some DPS when you have extra time, but it is not to be your primary duty.

Everybody who is a supposed "healer" who whines about "BUT MAH DPS!!!!!" if they have to cast too many Cures are missing the whole point as to why they are even there, and the dungeons are tuned assume the healer is doing zero DPS; there is no NEED for Healer DPS. Sure, it makes pulls a little faster, but oi. Why is everybody in such a freaking hurry, that we have to maximize DPS on all 4 characters in the dungeon?

I work a variable hour job, and I do my daily roulettes like anybody else, and I really don't see why we need to GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO everything. Slow. Down.

The dungeon will still be there tomorrow.
You're not going to fail to cap on verity gear before 4.1 (especially not with Omega being rather easy to get into, and has better gear than Verity anyways).

What is the freaking hurry? Seriously.

When one of the four people is not having fun because you want to rushrushrush, what's the point of playing a game when someone isn't having fun? In fact, make that 2 people... if the tank is stressed and panicing because the healer lets him go to 10% every few seconds, he's not having fun because he might feel inadequate or he might feel the healer is too lazy about healing and won't trust him/her. The healer isn't having fun because of the "GOTTA GET THROUGH THIS DUNGEON ASAP!!!!!" mood, where every single Aero and Stone spell are so precious that having to drop one of them to cast an extra Cure is such a freaking big deal.

If you hate dungeons that much, then just stop doing them. You obviously are not having fun doing them.

If you want to worship the DPS meters, go Q up as a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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If you want everyone to have the same idea of fun, make a party finder group. PuGs in Duty Finder are random people. Try and make yourself as happy as possible because you can be sure that those other people are thinking the exact same thing.

DPS heavy healers, like myself, want to get through dungeons ASAP because content is trivial and not challenging, but yet the trivial content that isn't fun is needed to be properly geared to have a chance at the potentially challenging and fun content that comes after it, though savage Omega is apparently not all that bad.

If you are someone who cares about the other people in your PuG group, then madam you are in the extreme minority. This game has hardly any form of battle synergy for the most part and even less community due to duties being cross-dataserver, meaning you will probably never meet those same people again ever.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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Fun for me is a fast, clean speedrun. Minimize time, maximize DPS, maximize rewards/time. Plenty of people in DF feel the same, that's why the norm is pulls the size of Texas and DPS for days.

The unfun comes from things going poorly, not from people pushing the envelope.