Shirk is amazing. (Ethics)

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

He is saying the benefit to running shirk is so minimal if you have two competent tanks its pointless to run it at all i agree aswell, tank swaping has been in ff for eons, and they weren't forgiving tank swaps either they were tank swaps if failed the mt will die leaving the raid and OT in a precarious position, he's not saying shirk is useless he saying its may aswell be if people know what they are doing.

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Oh man you're right I didn't actually read his full post, he's just wrong. Phew, I thought I was just misunderstanding something.

Gotta get that sweet Interject

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Gotta get that sweet Interject

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Nah man, gotta have Anticipation so that you can mitigate those pesky auto-attacks.... maybe. Or Awareness so you can maybe mitigate a crit. Or Ultimatum so you can... uh... erm...

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

2 Of your points are the same.
3 Out of 4 of your points require 1 or both tanks to be bad.
And lastly, no it does not allow you to start the fight without tank stance.

As for the dps gain portion wouldn't taking about cd that reducing damage taken be a better dps gain due to the ability to stay out of tank stance longer?
I have got to say people are going about like we needed this for the past 3 years, tank swap is easy and so far remains to be easy shirk is a wasted slot mainly because of the job that it does can be handled with provoke which your bringing anyways, regardless of circumstance or comp or the fight.

Which allows you to put lets see any other role skill in that slot.
Redundant utility is just that redundant.

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Nitpicking because you can't counter it?
Another immature response with no hard information to back it up, nice job ignoring my post.
Lastly, go research a little more. Non tank stance openers are very well being done. Again, please research before you comment, it really shows your inexperience with the tanking meta when you try to state your opinion so blindly.

Your comment about replacing Shirk with a mitigation role skill portrays to me that you don't really tank at a competitive level, otherwise you'd know we have an ample amount of mitigation to deal with boss damage coming from our other 3 role skill slots and our base cooldowns. Combined with the boss meta damage of slow damage and big hits, this gives us more than enough to deal with the current fights.

I use Shirk and will always advise other tanks to use it. I also will go out on a limb and say I'm a lot better at tanking than you, since, you know, you like to call people "bad" on a whim, prove me wrong and entertain me oh anti shirk master tank \o/.

Since you ignored most of my points and couldn't provide a logical reply, I won't be replying to you any further at the risk of it being pointless, unless you can show me some hard facts and research like a "good" player.

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Originally Posted by FPZ

Nitpicking because you can't counter it?
Another immature response with no hard information to back it up, nice job ignoring my post.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

Shirk was not needed, all you needed to do was drop tank stance (if you were in it) have the OT Provoke and do one aggro combo.
Or If you werent in tank stance go into your dps rotation, have OT provoke and use aggro combo he may have needed to enter tank stance he may not depending on his damage.

Any tank that runs shirk is running it because they have no idea how to play a tank in an optimal way it is not a dps gain it's simply a way for a tank to be less mindful. To think that they gave tanks shirk instead of a role skill charge or maybe damage share or something. Nope they give us a tool that tanks were existing fine without.

And if any of you say no we needed it sophia ex was a perfect example of tank doing massive amounts of tank swaps with out shirk the only purpose I see it have is what the OP did which troll baddies and trash talkers for being assholes.



So you to find the skill useful u have to be playing next to an underperforming tank whilst blowing provoke which is extremely important cd if something were to go wrong like the MT dying and you need to pick up aggro before the boss kills other members of the raid.

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I copied and pasted my first response since you can't be bothered to read earlier point, which you decided to not reply to that instead you choose the one below instead which i find interesting.

I cleared everything in HW including a12s sophia ex even went back to do a couple of coils sync for mentoring rights.

Also lastly saying i can't counter you post while countering your post and pointing out what quams i have with each of your post is not countering a post I see. I think your a good player but critical thinking and theory crafting certainly isn't your strong point. Let me ask you this.

Do you think with shirk Coils or fights like shiva ex or sophia ex would it be noticably easier for the entire group that includes you. How marginal is that benefit. Would awareness have been better instead for heavy hitters like bahamut and Alexander, or even ultimatum with the add phase for shiva or countless other fight with them would would allow your dps to unload much faster

I'd seriously like an answer to that, and no making redundant points again tyvm.

PS you just spouted alot of nonsense with nothing backing it up btw, saying my post isnt logical without a basis either and assuming i don't know what i'm talking about with out even looking at my lodestone at that as well, also where are your hard facts btw i have 4 years of tank swaps with out shirk behind me from different states of the game with different classes and different players doing it, you have basically your opinion. And i highly doubt your better at tanking then me if you need shirk i can tank swap without my hand being held very easily you can take shirk if you have an issue with that.

I find this impressive. I've only learned about how to use Shirk well when I was in a learning party of Susano EX.

I didn't have a problem of tank swapping at all back in HW, but at that learning party that time, I was confused why Susano was still targetting the MT after I provoked him. Perhaps my gear was considerably weaker than his.

So, I decided that, in order to make sure my provoke really works, I decided to put Shirk into role skills replacing Ultimatum.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

/ac "Shirk" <2>
Will use it on the person second on your pt list

/ac "Shirk" <tt>
Will cast on target of target which should be main tank

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I'll just quote a macro for it, kudos to you~

... and from what this topic suggests, another use of Shirk is to probably let a douchebag-who-won't-use-Diversion eat it. I find this topic amusing, I like how we're discussing both the skill and the ethnics. Let them cry if they deserve it and happy tanking! :)

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

2 Of your points are the same.
3 Out of 4 of your points require 1 or both tanks to be bad.
And lastly, no it does not allow you to start the fight without tank stance.

As for the dps gain portion wouldn't taking about cd that reducing damage taken be a better dps gain due to the ability to stay out of tank stance longer?
I have got to say people are going about like we needed this for the past 3 years, tank swap is easy and so far remains to be easy shirk is a wasted slot mainly because of the job that it does can be handled with provoke which your bringing anyways, regardless of circumstance or comp or the fight.

Which allows you to put lets see any other role skill in that slot.
Redundant utility is just that redundant.

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So instead of taking shirk, you're taking...what? What is more beneficial to tank dps than being able to tank swap without doing an aggro combo, being able to swap while staying in dps stance? Having to do less aggro combos overall?

Fucking baffling

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

IDo you think with shirk Coils or fights like shiva ex or sophia ex would it be noticably easier for the entire group that includes you. How marginal is that benefit. Would awareness have been better instead for heavy hitters like bahamut and Alexander, or even ultimatum with the add phase for shiva or countless other fight with them would would allow your dps to unload much faster

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1.) Awareness is good, but situational. It isn't really useful vs Bahamut or Alexander since those fights have predictable damage and you had enough HP to survive a low mitigation buster + a crit auto with plenty of health to spare (especially vs Alex since everyone was wearing VIT). It's useful in fights that have 100% crit (shiva, T11) and fights that have high crit bits (A8S). In those cases I'd give up Conva for Awareness as I find Shirk + X will give higher returns than Awareness + Conva.

2.) I haven't actually tried using Ultimatum, but to my knowledge it works like Provoke aka +1 aggro over everything. Does it have some crazy huge range that would let you hit every add when they spawn in Shiva? Because that's the only argument I can see for that.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

So instead of taking shirk, you're taking...what? What is more beneficial to tank dps than being able to tank swap without doing an aggro combo, being able to swap while staying in dps stance? Having to do less aggro combos overall?

Fucking baffling

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Rampart
Lv. 8 Ability Instant 90s Reduces damage taken by 20%.
Duration: 20s

Provoke
Lv. 16 Ability Instant 40s Gesture threateningly, placing yourself at the top of a target's enmity list

Convalescence
Lv. 20 Ability Instant 120s Increases own HP recovery via healing magic by 20%.
Duration: 20s

Reprisal
Lv. 32 Ability Instant 60s Lowers target's damage dealt by 10%.
Duration: 5s

Awareness
Lv. 36 Ability Instant 120s Nullifies chance of suffering critical damage.
Duration: 25s


Now i guess ill have to explain why because the critical thinking portion of you head doesn't seem to be intact so we can prolly agree that Rampart, Conval, Provoke, and reprisal are must haves right? If we can't don't reply to this we already disagree i think you should never comment on role skills ever again due to your lack of general understanding of how tank mechanics work and the flow of tanking. So now ill have to justify Awareness or Anticipation although i didn't list it ill explain why it has a slot.

Point 1, AOE pulls under awareness makes the healers life atleast 50% easier allowing your healer to dps which will allow more overall dps to your group your not the only in the party CONTRARY to the believe of many of you tanks here YOU ARE ON A TEAM.


Point 2, Out side of aoe clears awareness has more consistency of usage for maintaining healthy hp and damage with it being situtational, your only using shirk for tank swaps and/or if your tank is bad and nothing else, if your MTing awareness is pretty much good all thoughtout the fight because you could be crit at anytime now awareness is a net gain as long as your MTing i've tanking many raid and dungeons an i can say its very rare to not see myself get crit by a boss atleast 2 times in 25seconds you avoid 1 crit awareness has now become usefull.

On Anticipation, Its really only good for aoe pulls i dont find it good for bosses but if the rng gods are with you this can mitigate almost as much damage as shadow skin keep that in mind.

Now the fact i had to explain this to you makes me believe that many of you tanks are so self absorbed you can't see the benefits of taking less damage over a longer period of time versus doing more damage in a shorter period of time which is generally circumstantial based on the fight and the skill of the MT.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

1.) Awareness is good, but situational. It isn't really useful vs Bahamut or Alexander since those fights have predictable damage and you had enough HP to survive a low mitigation buster + a crit auto with plenty of health to spare (especially vs Alex since everyone was wearing VIT). It's useful in fights that have 100% crit (shiva, T11) and fights that have high crit bits (A8S). In those cases I'd give up Conva for Awareness as I find Shirk + X will give higher returns than Awareness + Conva.

2.) I haven't actually tried using Ultimatum, but to my knowledge it works like Provoke aka +1 aggro over everything. Does it have some crazy huge range that would let you hit every add when they spawn in Shiva? Because that's the only argument I can see for that.

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I disagree a crit punishing heat from alexander savage even in a vit meta was devastating i had 35k hp with food etc and if i took a crit punishing heat from alexander it always put me close enough on edge to push that living dead button.

Ultimatum is 5yards not wide but if everyone runs some what close to you, you could use it and immediately have aggro of the group. Let me add as a DRK player its the same raidus as unleash so i'm used to using short ranged radial aoes.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

Now i guess ill have to explain why because the critical thinking portion of you head doesn't seem to be intact so we can prolly agree that Rampart, Conval, Provoke, and reprisal are must haves right? If we can't don't reply to this we already disagree i think you should never comment on role skills ever again due to your lack of general understanding of how tank mechanics work and the flow of tanking. So now ill have to justify Awareness or Anticipation although i didn't list it ill explain why it has a slot.

Point 1, AOE pulls under awareness makes the healers life atleast 50% easier allowing your healer to dps which will allow more overall dps to your group your not the only in the party CONTRARY to the believe of many of your tanks here YOU ARE ON A TEAM.


Point 2, Out side of aoe clears awareness has more consistency of usage for maintaining healthy hp and damage with it being situtational, your only using shirk for tank swaps and/or if your tank is bad and nothing else, if your MTing awarness is pretty much good all thoughtout the fight because you could be crit at anytime now awareness is a net gain as long as your MTing i've tanking many raid and dungeons an i can say its very rare to not see myself get crit by a boss atleast 2 times in 25seconds you avoid 1 crit awareness has now become usefull.

On Anticipation, Its really only good for aoe pulls i dont find it good for bosses but if the rng gods are with you this can mitigate almost as much damage as shadow skin keep that in mind.

Now the fact i had to explain this to you makes me believe that many of you tanks are so self absorbed you can't see the benefits of taking less damage over a longer period of time versus doing more damage in a shorter period of time which is generally circumstantial based on the fight and the skill of the MT.

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So forfeit one of the best raid dps-increasing abilities tanks have been given for a 2 minute long cd that lasts for 25 seconds? Something that only MIGHT be beneficial? Or a minute long cd which, again, MIGHT be beneficial? I really don't think you've done any high-end tanking if you think this is a good idea. Take the guaranteed benefit over a potential one, every single time. And in case you're wondering, yes: dps is king. Kill the encounter faster, healers have to heal less. Crazy how that works.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

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And shirk is beneficial when? For fight u have tank swaps in and what? You change one gcd with no use of shirk maybe two if you don't know what your doing and that outweighs the potential damage reduction you get which will allow for healers to heal you less and do more and allow you to stay out of tank stance and make you blow less defensive cds?

You just don't understand how the flow of combat works, Do you realize how rare it is to not be crit for 25seconds? If you don't you've never paid attention to the numbers your taking ever you've only cared about the numbers you've dealt and if thats the case you should put down the class and dps. I'm convinced we are ideologically different you want more dps i want more versatility and freedom to stance dance without having to blow other cd's. I've done tank swaping with out shirk and i will continue to do it.

You can pick up that role skill that we have all been doing fine with out including you ill take awareness and do my aoe pulls mostly out of tank stance while you run around trying to find some scrub tank to shirk for.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

So forfeit one of the best raid dps-increasing abilities tanks have been given for a 2 minute long cd that lasts for 25 seconds? Something that only MIGHT be beneficial? Or a minute long cd which, again, MIGHT be beneficial? I really don't think you've done any high-end tanking if you think this is a good idea. Take the guaranteed benefit over a potential one, every single time. And in case you're wondering, yes: dps is king. Kill the encounter faster, healers have to heal less. Crazy how that works.

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He's trolling or genuinely believes the nonsense he is spewing, the guy isn't even level 70 so he's just got nothing to do but troll, best to put it on ignore, you won't get any sense out of replying to it. He's jealous and bitter, can't adapt to the meta of tank damage and has never tanked anything high level in his life without echo or nerfs, hence the spite against those who want to push themselves. Guy literally doesn't exist in any raid logs and is still level 60, so this only confirms it.

The FFXIV forums get a bad rep a lot of the time, this guy is a prime example of terrible advice & a terrible attitude, a great example of what NOT to be when trying to progress your skill in a game, posting more on the forums then actually getting good in game. o/

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Originally Posted by FPZ

He's trolling or genuinely believes the nonsense he is spewing, the guy isn't even level 70 so he's just got nothing to do but troll, best to put it on ignore, you won't get any sense out of replying to it.

The FFXIV forums get a bad rep a lot of the time, this guy is a prime example of terrible advice & a terrible attitude, a great example of what NOT to be when trying to progress your skill in a game.

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The ff forums gets a bad rep because its filled with people who are wasting a skill slot on something that we were doing with one skill for three years and we have scrubs claiming to be good saying its mandatory because its impossible to swap or do good dps with out after the years of doing tank swaps and doing good dps with out said skill. I'm out of this thread you guys are idiots.

"How are tanks supposed to keep a threat lead so we can DPS stance?"

Shirk.

"Wow this skill isn't even necessary, why even bring it, we were doing swaps just fine without this before."

@Mnemosynia: Now that I've sat down and thought about it for a bit, I kinda see where you're coming from and also kinda don't. I don't agree that Awareness is stronger than Shirk by default - it's simply not true. With Awareness you can use it and reduce 0 crits thus meaning that the CD did literally nothing. Let's say you did mitigate a bunch of crits throughout the fight, what actually crit? Most likely, a bunch of autos. Autos are covered by regens/fairy whether they're crits or not. This has always been the case. Even if we want to say that Shirk isn't much of a DPS increase, it works 100% of the time every time and will always give you that extra DPS. Awareness, meanwhile, may prevent some damage but even if it does it won't really matter. You could argue that it prevents crit autos after a tank buster, but in the situation where you know to use Awareness your healers know there's a tank buster so they're pre-casting heals anyway (or using oGCD heals w/e).

Where I actually kinda see your point is in fights with 100% crit rate, where Awareness is actually really useful. I made the argument that Conva would be a better replacement for Awareness and I'm having trouble figuring out if that's actually the best option. I feel like for PLD it's fine since Conva doesn't do a crazy amount for PLD, but on DRK and WAR it helps a lot - DRK for LD (assuming no Bene) and WAR for pairing with Thrill as well as creating the strongest spread Adlo. Shirk is a DPS increase but does it actually outweigh the benefits of Conva? I dunno, and you obviously can't replace Voke, Rampart, or Reprisal. Tricky thing to think about, though it also assumes that there's even gonna be a fight with 100% crit this expansion.

Also if we got another fight like A2S you'd definitely take Awareness over Shirk, but who knows if we'll ever get another one of those.

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Originally Posted by FPZ

He's trolling or genuinely believes the nonsense he is spewing, the guy isn't even level 70 so he's just got nothing to do but troll, best to put it on ignore, you won't get any sense out of replying to it. He's jealous and bitter, can't adapt to the meta of tank damage and has never tanked anything high level in his life without echo or nerfs, hence the spite against those who want to push themselves. Guy literally doesn't exist in any raid logs and is still level 60, so this only confirms it.

The FFXIV forums get a bad rep a lot of the time, this guy is a prime example of terrible advice & a terrible attitude, a great example of what NOT to be when trying to progress your skill in a game, posting more on the forums then actually getting good in game. o/

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Understood. I'm not necessarily replying to him to try to change his mind, I'm more talking to anyone who's lurking who's wondering if shirk is worth taking in 8 man content or not.

If you're lurking: take shirk in 8 man content.

I ended up adding shirk to my hotbar for swaps after I kept pulling hate back on swaps while in sword oath on pld...

Honestly dunno why this is an issue now as it very rarely happened before stormblood on PLD, WAR, or DRK.

I know i am late but as a healer I like it way more when tanks take shirk over awareness. If the tanks bring shirk, and the ninja shadewalks I can start the fight with ALL of my regens, and dps without worry of taking aggro. The best part is with all those regens the tank stays safe near 100% until they are gone assuming the other healer went big with what they have as well.

Wow, I had a very similar experience, the other day.

I was on my RDM, the other day, and we had just reached the second boss of the lv 63 dungeon. We had a BRD bashing the tank for not stance-dancing when enough enmity had been established. Technically, the tank wasn't playing incorrectly - he was holding enmity and using his def cds properly - but that's not enough for some people. About halfway into the fight, the tank shirked to the BRD and stopped attacking the boss. He got attention and died faster than the AST could keep up. The BRD and AST had the same family name, so I assumed they were in a relationship in real life. After the BRD died, the AST stepped on all the bad stuff, didn't heal herself, and died while the tank and I finished the rest.

The tank left the party afterward. About 10 mins later, with no sign of a new tank queuing in, I bashed on the BRD for being a prick. It's bad enough that dps queues take at least 20+ mins. He said nothing, left the party, and the AST soon followed.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

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You need to think of Shirk as a DPS cooldown.

Almost all enmity generating abilities in single target in this game are a DPS loss. Tank stances, aggro combos, etc. Shirk costs nothing and generates more aggro all at once than all of them.

If you add up all the losses of all the power slashes, halones, and (arguably) butcher's blocks, plus any tank stance uptime, that you would have needed to generate the kind of insane lead that Shirk can provide, you realize that Shirk = all of that potency.

Its crazy not to take it into any content in which you and your co-tank care about your damage.

Moreover, the ability is just fun. It makes aggro management a mechanic that costs nothing other than a little extra raid awareness on your/your co-tank's part, and ultimately fosters better teamwork.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

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Expanding on this, Shirk also becomes a way of forcing a tank change during, say, Susano EX or Omega 4. As long as the OT isn't too far behind, then one Shirk is enough to transfer hate if, for some reason, the OT isn't able to provoke, or maybe isn't paying as much attention as they should be.

If you're not taking shirk in 8 man content, I'm actively judging you while begrudingly doing my enmity combo to compensate for your lack of consideration, empathy and insight into tank mechanics. Be a teamplayer.

It is really as simple as this. If you are not using Shirk, you don't understand it.

Honestly, I don't think the people here that are supporting it are doing it enough justice. It makes things just so clean, all the way around. Tanks will establish hate right away and allow them to straight up go ham on the boss. If you have amazing DPS that start to get close on threat, use it again. In fact, even if the OT doesn't voke and JUST uses Shirk, you are still getting a threat increase that can at the very least make things more comfortable. It's great for tank swaps, but even in a non tank swap situation has tremendous advantages.

SHirk is the most lowkey and overpowered ability currently in the game, bar nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Thoro39

If you're not taking shirk in 8 man content, I'm actively judging you while begrudingly doing my enmity combo to compensate for your lack of consideration, empathy and insight into tank mechanics. Be a teamplayer.

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I'm the same way. I try to explain it to people, but some just won't add it. Then when I take the boss back to MT it, I'm calling the other tank names (to myself) as I'm spamming my RoH combo in Shield, instead of spamming my GB/RA combo in sword.

With Shirk you can swap with dps combo instead enmity combo even when doing that on dps stance and that is pretty awesome imo. Trolling with it is additional bonus.

Also you don't need shirk in dungeons so feel free to swap it out when not doing 8/24man content, i swap between shirk and awareness depending what stuff i do.