Have a little empathy for those whose jobs got crushed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vexander

This is the exact reason nerfs need to be avoided. Bring other classes up.

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And what happens when all of the classes get so buffed that they all start trivializing content? I've heard that AST is already able to cheese some of the mechanics in Susano EX. Is that what you want?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Funny how the wheel turns...

3.x WAR: "Hahahaha! Silly Paladin! You think you could be viable in raids compositions when you can't defend against magic attacks and your DPS is pitiful!? You'll never be as good as I am!"

4.0 WAR: "Don't make fun of my DPS! D': I used to be the best! It hurts and stings!"

(Points to anyone that gets the reference in the second quote.)

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2.x PLD: "HAHAHAHAHA WAR isn't viable! It's not even a real tank, it can't do as much damage as us or mitigate as well as us! How pathetic! We only have you along because two paladins would hinder the LB building!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

They gutted the job and left us hollow inside.

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Isn't that actually quite fitting for the job? /s

Kidding aside, the only move I really miss is Scourge. I just hit 70 on DRK yesterday and I'm getting used to using TBN whenever I can and I feel like im getting a lot of buffed Bloodsplitters, and that feels pretty good. I wasn't a DRK main in HW so I'm pretty biased in its current state of enjoyment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

You know, I was lucky. My job has been good since I started playing. It never really dawned on me how those 3.0 AST/PLD felt, or the poor BRD's that saw their class identitiy destroyed in front of their eyes.

Now I get it. I understand. I beg those of you who now have a great place in the meta, have a touch of sympathy for those not so lucky when they complain on their respective forums.

Hyperbole aside, SE please fix the broken classes in 4.05 with some care and respect.

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I used to play Sch as my healer while PLD is my main. I currently don't know what to do, my poor Scholar feels wrong, so I am trying to play White Mage for now, and just hope that my Scholar recovers enough that Eos can do more than casting Anti-Depress continuously... With that, and playing PLD since ARR beta 3, I can relate. The great Warrior re-write of 2.1 changed things for PLD in ways that become even more apparent in HW. It's been a tough furrow to plow, but when I look at the job guide notes for how Scholar was changed in 4.0, I truly struggle to see any positive changes at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

2.x PLD: "HAHAHAHAHA WAR isn't viable! It's not even a real tank, it can't do as much damage as us or mitigate as well as us! How pathetic! We only have you along because two paladins would hinder the LB building!"

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You must have missed the Warrior reboot that came with 2.1 which buffed a lot of their skills and handed Warrior almost the same mitigation toolkit that PLD had. PLD became the poster child for boring, simple 1-2-3 tanking, and not a lot else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

And what happens when all of the classes get so buffed that they all start trivializing content? I've heard that AST is already able to cheese some of the mechanics in Susano EX. Is that what you want?

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Buff them to the point they're all on par, sacrifice current content in the process, and tune new content around the properly balanced classes. It's not that hard. All it requires is a little sacrifice in making existing EX/Savage content negligible. That won't be the end of the world.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Buff them to the point they're all on par, sacrifice current content in the process, and tune new content around the properly balanced classes. It's not that hard. All it requires is a little sacrifice in making existing EX/Savage content negligible. That won't be the end of the world.

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Excellent idea! Rather than make some small adjustments, Lets sacrifice content that's not even a month old and then go back into content that's already far in development and completely rebalance it again. On top of that, we're going to do it EVERY TIME there's an imbalance! What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Buff them to the point they're all on par, sacrifice current content in the process, and tune new content around the properly balanced classes. It's not that hard. All it requires is a little sacrifice in making existing EX/Savage content negligible. That won't be the end of the world.

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Terrible idea. For anyone who is not hardcore raid/end-game current content is core content. Sacrificing it is a very bad idea. Better to *softly* nerf the excesses of some jobs and fix the glaring deficiencies of other ones.

Go look at mabinogi if you wanna see what its like when you only buff and almost never nerf.

Spoilers: The result was power creep the MMO and just buffing the ones lacking created a circle of buffing everything that fell behind and now power balance is so out of whack near a ton of things needs a lot of nerfs.

Buffing and nerfing is much more healthy.

Scholar, Monk and i guess machinist come to mind
Other jobs need minor changes as well

Well, I disagree and I'll leave it there. All current content becomes old at some point, after all. It becomes outdated with the next set of gear, the next expansion with its new skills and levels. It'd be fine to sacrifice something entirely temporary for the sake of bringing balance. That said, perfect balance is impossible. Some classes will always outshine others. So long as the gap is not drastic (like MCH and SAM), we should accept these differences. 1%-3% difference in DPS seems acceptable to me. Just enough that the skill of a player will make them more desirable, but not so much that they're required over others.

Stormblood is the first time that I have played a healer as my "main," so I am coming from a relatively uneducated perspective (prior to, I mostly just used it in roulette / 24-mans).

That said, I am curious as to why people are calling for a nerf to AST. It feels strong to me, but not broken. Is it because SCH feels so weak in comparison?

I think this is a good thread that comes off with a much better tone that the majority of "complaint" threads, however. I definitely empathize with people who feel like the identity / usefulness of their job has been usurped. Personally, I was a bard main up until Wanderer's Minuet, and then I switched to summoner. Seeing the summoner changes that were due to come with 4.0, I said EWW GROSS, and decided to do SAM and AST.

It can be a pretty severe bummer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

2.x PLD: "HAHAHAHAHA WAR isn't viable! It's not even a real tank, it can't do as much damage as us or mitigate as well as us! How pathetic! We only have you along because two paladins would hinder the LB building!"

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And the wheel turns and turns...

Drg maintaining eye stacks need to be separated from the botd timer. Having them only charge while timer is up is ok, but even when you start with the full 30 at the start of a fight break and bump it with a fresh botd for the extra 15 its not enough to maintain it.
Mnk needs an increas to chakra proc % bad, and needs brotherhood to be able to stack like eye of the dragon.
Smn, wth were they thinking? change the older skills back to how it was seriously.
Whm feels like its in a good spot.
Working on trying the rest

Pets need help. Pet responsiveness and animation delay causing ghost damage or missed damage in general is a huge issue. If I cast ahk morn at 3 seconds on timer and it still doesn't go off that is a problem:/

When they stop asking for my class to be nerfed, then sure I will show some sympathy their class deserves. I have levelled GLD as my main from arriving in Jan, I have run through dungeons with my closest friends up until the 60s when I was doing Anima. The low levels with no real ability to tank was brutal and warriors would simply waltz around high and mighty. Then you get the ability to tank at 40 by that time you are wasting more mana than you can regen by having to Flash to keep the agro from AOEs that Sum and BM threw out.

Then I got into the Anima thing and then realised that "outsider" doesn’t want to run a dungeon at a comfy pace, they expect you to pull 6 billion mobs and those in another dungeon even though their class can't do shit about another other mob apart from the one they are on... So again, mana went flying out of the window. Then to top it off Magic damage just literally obliterated us.... which meant that in certain 8-man content a PLD was effectively a door stop!

So, 4.0 comes out and they re-tweak us able to run older dungeons a little better but the new dungeons a hell of a lot better and then the salty popcorn came out of nowhere demanding that PLD be nerfed because OMG they are OP .... seriously!

I am sorry your class didn't get the love you expected but you can't sit there and bitch about a Tank class that as been neglected from 2.0 onward....

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Originally Posted by Coatl

I really only think MCH needs emergency surgery. SCH is not that bad people just freaking out, but some love would do it good.

MCH actually deals pretty similar DPS to bard, maybe slightly lower. The problem is BRD also has a crapton of party buffs and the MCH has one...which was nerfed..and is embarrassing to even talk about now. They could hotglue this by making hypercharge vulnerability go from 5% to like 15 or 20% or something.

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at this point, as a MCH main, I'd really love to forego the party utility and just get more DPS. Leave the support to the Bards, where it makes sense. Let MCH be the ranged physical powerhouses.

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Originally Posted by FaileExperiment

at this point, as a MCH main, I'd really love to forego the party utility and just get more DPS. Leave the support to the Bards, where it makes sense. Let MCH be the ranged physical powerhouses.

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I'd like to see MCH be more of a DEBUFF vs a Party buff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kokorro

I'd like to see MCH be more of a DEBUFF vs a Party buff.

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That might be cool too, though I lean towards not making it a support class at all. But either way it needs a dps increase to stay on par with BRD at the very least, but ideally RDM'ish numbers.

IMO MCH, SCH, DRK, WAR, and maybe monk needs review

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Hyperbole aside, SE please fix the broken classes in 4.05 with some care and respect.

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Sadly SE is guaranteed to show absolutely zero care, respect, or even the tiniest shred of consideration when rebalancing things. Since it seems their so-called idea of "balance" is to nerf the most desirable Job of a particular role so deep into the ground that it becomes utterly worthless for the rest of the expansion. Meanwhile they buff the least desirable Job of a role so bloody sky high that it ends up vastly outclassing every other Job choice of that role! They keep doing rebalancing in extremes so they never actually solve the balance problems at all. Instead they just shift the problem around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Funny how the wheel turns...

3.x WAR: "Hahahaha! Silly Paladin! You think you could be viable in raids compositions when you can't defend against magic attacks and your DPS is pitiful!? You'll never be as good as I am!"

4.0 WAR: "Don't make fun of my DPS! D': I used to be the best! It hurts and stings!"

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Just wait until 5.0 where things will be right back to the same situation as 3.0 sadly. Because SE wouldn't know what balancing is even if it hit them in the face! Since with WAR nerfed so hard and PLD buffed to the point of completely overshadowing all other Tanks it's pretty clear that SE is going to just end up reversing the situation again rather than ever actually properly balancing things for a change! So in 5.0 all the PLDs will be disappointed yet again while the WARs will be laughing it up once more. Then in 6.0 they'll reverse it yet again instead of ever learning a bloody thing! It's honestly pathetic how the relaunched FFXIV with the current team has been running for 4 years now but they STILL don't seem to understand the concept of balancing!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Out of curiosity, what's the reasoning behind this viewpoint other than "feels"? Of course nobody likes having supposed power taken away, but outside of "I'll feel bad if I get nerfed" is there any actual logical reason to come to this conclusion? For the most part I'd imagine the developers have a target area for class performance, and it's likely ATM that there are some high outliers, and some low outliers. Why would you suggest buffing everyone to the high outliers, who might be above the developer's target area of performance? Besides "how I feel"?

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People like this don't have legit reasoning. Sometimes it's super obvious one thing is out of place that should be nerfed, but they'd rather buff like 10 different things when each one of those buffs can have unexpected outcomes. The less variables you change the easier it is to control, so it completely does not make sense to never nerf anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

the poor BRD's that saw their class identitiy destroyed in front of their eyes.

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Bard did not get destroyed it was just put back the way it was before 3.0.

Yeah, a few people in our FC aren't happy with the changes to their classes. The bright side is in this game, you can just switch jobs on your one character, not start all over on a new character interlay when the meta doesn't go your way *cough cough* WOW *cough* I try to make them feel better by being available as a tank to power level their alt jobs as quickly as possible. :)

I guess i was a bit more prepared than others when it comes to how badly MCH is Fed up right now for 4.0 because the thing I learned when it comes to Gun class/Jobs in RPG game (MMO and singleplayer) is that Gun Class/Job tend to end up two ways being...

1) Extremely weak and horribly designed.

or

2) Greatly well designed and complete overpowered that it slaughters everything.

We got the #1 result for 4.0 sadly.

For some reason Gun jobs always seem to be the most difficult Job/class in any game to balance which is why often some people are against Gun Job/class introduced into a MMO or RPG but mostly for the part that they are often way too OP murderfest Job/class.


They can adjust MCH has many possible ways due to heat Mechanic but as it is designed currently the focus is on managing the Heat.

1) The most obvious is that to not make the Turret and Gauss Barrel dissappear when Overload/Overheat. This deign choice has been a major issue to the player base so far and players are avoiding Overload and Overheat all together because it is a major DPS loss than a actual DPS gain and is more of a annoyance to players just because they have to redeploy Gauss Barrel and the Turrets. Overload should not destroy the turret when used since it is only a one time shot skill and nothing major happens other than a small moment of a single heavy attack.

2) Hot shot buff should recharge some time on the buff per heat such as 5 heat recharge 5 seconds on Hot Shot buff and 10 heat recharge 10 seconds on hot shot buff. "Cooldown" will obviously not recharge Hot Shot buff since it reduce heat. It also fits the theme for Hot shot skill as it is a skill that does light damage to cause the bullets shot from the gun to provided addition 5% damage because Hot Shot charge the bullets with heat.

3) Provide 100 proc on 123 combo skills during overheat because the 50% RNG factor on 123 skill still remain active unless ammo is used but most players only save ammo during between 50 to 99 heat to maintain a proper 123 combo and prevent heat build up.

4) Cooldown should be a OGCD skill with a 2 second recast time while still costing TP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

You must have missed the Warrior reboot that came with 2.1 which buffed a lot of their skills and handed Warrior almost the same mitigation toolkit that PLD had. PLD became the poster child for boring, simple 1-2-3 tanking, and not a lot else.

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I suppose I should have written 2.0, not 2.x lol

The point stands, does it not? As another player said, the wheel just keeps on turning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vallamaria

snip

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I'm sure you're swimming in suggestions to balance the jobs, shoot out some ideas that are foolproof and will bring that equilibrium you wish to slap the XIV team in the face with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Bard did not get destroyed it was just put back the way it was before 3.0.

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Bard is what it needed to be since the beginning. A support DPS.
2.0 Bard was sucky and had situational songs and was punished for using them.
3.0 Was a little less sucky when it came to skills, songs still sucked and Bowmage was a problem to people.
4.0 No casting. Buttloads of utility, no punishments sing songs and probably the best balanced Job in-game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I'm sure you're swimming in suggestions to balance the jobs, shoot out some ideas that are foolproof and will bring that equilibrium you wish to slap the XIV team in the face with.

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Thanks for the sarcasm there. Honestly there's a great deal of suggestions one could make to balance things. Since there's all sorts of slight tweaks they could do rather than the huge heavy-handed massive nerfs and overbuffing SE seems to prefer. But what difference does it make when SE doesn't even listen to their non-Japanese playerbase anyways. Us westerners are nothing but a mere afterthought to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

All for buffing, but I would say I'm against nerfing SAM too much, if at all. It's damage is the only thing it brings to the table, that's the important thing to remember. :)

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didnt they nerf monks a long time ago because they were ahead by alot in DPS and only brought that.... also sam at leasts brings a slashing debuff monk didn't even bring that

Scholar really needs some assistance. The whole PET UI is dreadful and needs reassessing. A chocobo is more help in a party than EOS is.
mana has become an issue, on scholar. Of all things.

Astrologian is too powerful compared to Scholar and White mage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tigra

didnt they nerf monks a long time ago because they were ahead by alot in DPS and only brought that.... also sam at leasts brings a slashing debuff monk didn't even bring that

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A slashing debuff that every class who has it now has it as a part of their optimal DPS rotation? It's mostly irrelevant utility because it's nothing special and nothing that's even slightly beneficial to the other jobs that have it.

From my perspective, I look at classes and see things that are clearly undertuned, and less clear examples of things that are overtuned. There's no way the problem with Monk and Dragoon's damage output is Samurai's fault. There's no way that Warrior's complete lack of utility with nothing to make up for it or Dark Knight's low relative damage are Paladin's fault.

You could make a good argument for Astrologian, as Scholar is clearly undertuned right now too, and bringing it up to snuff might be detrimental to White Mage's standing, but that's a unique case, as Astrologian brings things that nothing else in any other role brings relative to other members of its role. It brings so much that it's actually hugely detrimental to not take it and I don't think you could make that argument for anything else right now.

Balance issues aside, and back on topic, I leveled up all tanks to 60 so I just switched to Paladin when SB came out. I don't like what they did to Warrior, but I always liked the other two tanks more from an aesthetic point of view so switching didn't really stress me out too much. The changes make me upset purely from a game design standpoint.

Things that need to be nerfed.

SCH single target damage
SCH AoE DPS
AST Balance and AoE heals
NIN's deeps
SCH pets
BRD's personal deeps.
Holy and Gravity
DRK

What needs to be buffed:
WAR deeps in and out of tank stance
MCH in general
DRG.

Did I miss anything?

Please stop asking for PLD to be nerfed. I just got awesome and most of us are really enjoying it. Plus is solved nothing. Tank damage already took a pretty big hit and lowering PLD damage isn't going to really make WAR or DRK happy. WAR really needs to have it's damage boosted. Loosing their position as the tank with the highest DPS has really hurt the identity of the job. I'm not sure what's wrong with DRK, but I know they keep posting about hating how the job currently plays, so I'm thinking someone should take a look at that. If I had to rank things though, I think MCH probably needs the most help (since people have straight up stopped playing the job), then SCH (yeah, they broke all the things for SCH), then probably WAR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Things that need to be nerfed.

SCH single target damage
SCH AoE DPS
AST Balance and AoE heals
NIN's deeps
SCH pets
BRD's personal deeps.
Holy and Gravity
DRK

What needs to be buffed:
WAR deeps in and out of tank stance
MCH in general
DRG.

Did I miss anything?

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I agree with MCH, DRG, and WAR needing buffs. But those classes you listed do not need nor deserve nerfs, especially DRK, BRD, and SCH. Like, what?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Things that need to be nerfed.

SCH single target damage
SCH AoE DPS
AST Balance and AoE heals
NIN's deeps
SCH pets
BRD's personal deeps.
Holy and Gravity
DRK

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Surely you must be joking or trolling? Because I have no idea why in the world you would suggest nerfing SCH or DRK. SCH currently has the shortest end of the Healer stick this expansion. Meanwhile DRK may be above WAR but it's still far below PLD which is quite overtuned.

I haven't played most of the other jobs, but from what I've seen and played:

Red Mage needs a damage nerf, or Black Mage needs a damage buff. I say this as someone who now mains RDM. We do far too much damage, AoE and single target. Especially compared to Black Mage, which is supposed to be the staple big damage mage. I mean watching some of the numbers go off with a black mage in the party I pretty much do the same damage per spell (slightly less), but cast them out faster because of chainspell. BLM has thunder, yeah, but i wouldn't be surprised to see RDM damage ahead of BLM by a decent margin if the numbers were compared in spite of not having a DoT.

Astrologian is fine and doesn't really need a nerf in my opinion, but I wouldn't be upset by a nerf here and there (like to Balance, perhaps a slight one to noct stance). I just want the healers to be balanced with each other.

Scholar needs buffs. Idk stats on their damage (heard they got hit hard), but AST's noct stance shields are generally better since they're instant cast and always add more shields than what was healed for with aspected benefic. SCH is supposed to be the mitigation healer. AST seems to fare better in that department at the moment (because instant cast shields that don't heavily rely on crits).

Machinist is stuck in a hole, needs buffs in general and perhaps mechanic changes to be more consistent.

Warrior could use a bit of a damage buff, but it will be a bit of a hassle to do so I think without inciting the whole "Tank Damage needs to be buffed!" and "Tanks aren't DPS" arguments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Things that need to be nerfed.

SCH single target damage
SCH AoE DPS
AST Balance and AoE heals
NIN's deeps
SCH pets
BRD's personal deeps.
Holy and Gravity
DRK

Did I miss anything?

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This is why devs should never take NA forums seriously. News flash: SCH doesn't really have AoE anymore. Literally the only thing there that has actual merit to it is that, yes, AST needs a nerf to Balance.

Uh okay, Bard I'll probably give to you since I'm pretty much consistently top of the charts among my raid group, although part of that could be due to absurd skill ceiling/optimization more than anything else. (Although if I'm doing that now, when Bard DPS should be at their lowest throughout the entire expansion due to low starting crit rate, I'm gonna sprint right into a gap between myself and the rest of the DPS in my group due to the RNG-heavy nature of Bard exponentially benefiting from crit procs more than every other job in the game, as was the case with the top Bards effortlessly demolishing everything at the end of HW.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Things that need to be nerfed.

SCH single target damage
snip

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In case this isn't a troll post...

SCH Single target damage: White Mage has best at the moment to my understanding, SCH is fine here.
SCH AoE DPS: Got nerfed to hell already from what I've seen.
AST Balance and AoE Heals: Balance could be nerfed, but doesn't exactly need to be. AoE Heals aren't that spectacular.
SCH Pets: Are fine, though I heard they were dumber than before. Dunno if that's actually the case.
BRD's DPS: Compared to MCH? Just buff MCH. BRD numbers aren't hitting Melee/Caster DPS to my understanding, it's fine.
Holy and Gravity: Holy is very good, it and stone 4 are what makes WHM the highest damage healer. Damage nerf? Wouldn't be that uncalled for because of the stun. Gravity is Holy without the stun. Gravity is fine. It eats so much MP that AST can't stand to use it too much since it doesn' thave WHM level MP sustain.
DRK: Nerf DRK? You're joking, yes?

I guess I am just counting my blessings while they exist, because my "Mains" are PLD, WHM, and SAM. Well, I did NIN as my DPS up until the end of HW which was just a week or two before SB arrived in Early Access. It was horribly undergeared so I made the decision to instead use PLD to get through the MSQ and skip all the side-quests and leave them for SAM which seemed like a much more interesting job (even if it was lacking cool little features like Stealth and movement speed buff).

I do feel a bit sad for those classes who were hit with the nerf hammers... I main'd PLD back before Heavensward. Remember that?

We were so useless back then. We couldn't self-heal for jack, our DPS was downright worst of all the classes in the game, bar none, and the only thing we had was single-target survivability, but only in groups where people could heal us. So yeah, I remember how much it sucked to be on the bottom of the totem pole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by File2ish

I haven't played most of the other jobs, but from what I've seen and played:

Red Mage needs a damage nerf, or Black Mage needs a damage buff. I say this as someone who now mains RDM. We do far too much damage, AoE and single target. Especially compared to Black Mage, which is supposed to be the staple big damage mage. I mean watching some of the numbers go off with a black mage in the party I pretty much do the same damage per spell (slightly less), but cast them out faster because of chainspell. BLM has thunder, yeah, but i wouldn't be surprised to see RDM damage ahead of BLM by a decent margin if the numbers were compared in spite of not having a DoT.

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I think BLM needs to have the potencies for Fire IV and Blizzard IV brought back up to be honest, maybe even boosted a bit beyond what they were originally. That said, I don't see why RDM should perform below BLM necessarily. I understand that RDMs bring more utility to a group, but if Crowd Control abilities weren't useless in group content, BLM would bring as much if not more, and I do think that is something SE should honestly look into.