Please Restrict tank classes from wearing strength jewelry.

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Originally Posted by Elim

I don't think so. Especially with a paladin and dark knight pairing, since they can protect each other.

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Fair enough, I did not consider that. I REALLY don't want to have to babysit paper tanks...

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

I imagine in progression gear that a Savage tankbuster will 1 shot a tank in STR 270's.

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Susano EX can already oneshot them nicely within the first 30 seconds of the fight if Asail(? The telegraphed tank buster) or the auto attack after it crits. Bad tanks are more likely to not mitigate it because it's not as obvious as Stormsplitter. To be fair, the tank getting oneshot before the first mechanic is usually a pretty good sign there's only pain if you stick around.

You know how white mages are supposed to let tanks hover around 95% hp so that their regens/the tanks self healing doesn't go to waste and all that? Yeah they can't be missing any health at all before a butterfly lands on them or else they might crumple and die from the damage.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Not really. They could simply fix tenacity. Improve it's scale ability and problem solved.

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Its probably that, vit scaling or a mix of both, that would be the best yes, and a better tenacity is of no consecuence to balance other classes since that stat is disabled unless you are a tank

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

My only issue with Tanks in STR is in dungeons.

I do WAY more AoE DPS as a WHM than you do as a Tank. Every second I need to stop to Cure 2 you is a Holy I don't do.

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This here is the honest truth.

I have seen Lv70 tanks with Lv55-60 STR accessories, and they always need cure spam or will easily die, some of them even pull every group of mobs before a barrier and expect me to keep them alive!

When they stop and start complaining, I vote dismiss them and if they don't get kicked I just leave, I'd rather go craft or afk for 30 minutes than tolerate stupid. And if it isn't them dying because they don't dodge, don't use defense skills and have iLv55 accessories, its often I get Holy-Spam hate as they can't get enough enmity...

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Originally Posted by Demise

Susano EX can already oneshot them nicely within the first 30 seconds of the fight if Asail(? The telegraphed tank buster) or the auto attack after it crits. Bad tanks are more likely to not mitigate it because it's not as obvious as Stormsplitter. To be fair, the tank getting oneshot before the first mechanic is usually a pretty good sign there's only pain if you stick around.

You know how white mages are supposed to let tanks hover around 95% hp so that their regens/the tanks self healing doesn't go to waste and all that? Yeah they can't be missing any health at all before a butterfly lands on them or else they might crumple and die from the damage.

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She was talking about savage though. One assumes tanks and healers in savage aren't complete sh@#! and know how to mitigate and time heals.

shouldn't you healers be worried about healing and not dps? no one likes a squishy tank, that much is true, but you have to understand how tanks feel having their dps nerfed, what fun is in the game for tanks with no dps? do you want to spend 20mins killing a trash mob solo? do you want to go an entire xpac knowing that your numbers wont improve? its disheartening, and if i may say so its a slap in the face to everyone who mains a tank, healers would you be happy if you dps was back to being int based?

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Originally Posted by Final-Fantasy

This here is the honest truth.

I have seen Lv70 tanks with Lv55-60 STR accessories, and they always need cure spam or will easily die, some of them even pull every group of mobs before a barrier and expect me to keep them alive!

When they stop and start complaining, I vote dismiss them and if they don't get kicked I just leave, I'd rather go craft or afk for 30 minutes than tolerate stupid. And if it isn't them dying because they don't dodge, don't use defense skills and have iLv55 accessories, its often I get Holy-Spam hate as they can't get enough enmity...

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Remember that those tanks will need cure spam anyways if they dont use defensive cds. Having some extra hp cushion wont save from doing poorly if they are gangbanged with no defensive cds, the issue there is not the lack of hp but the lack of skill, same as some tanks could easily tank an instance on heavensward on dps stance with no aggro loss and just a bit extra damage received, compared to those who were on tank stance full time and needed spam heal so they dont become an stain on the floor

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

shouldn't you healers be worried about healing and not dps? no one likes a squishy tank, that much is true, but you have to understand how tanks feel having their dps nerfed, what fun is in the game for tanks with no dps? do you want to spend 20mins killing a trash mob solo? do you want to go an entire xpac knowing that your numbers wont improve? its disheartening, and if i may say so its a slap in the face to everyone who mains a tank, healers would you be happy if you dps was back to being int based?

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Simple, carry two sets of gear, one for solo, one for group.

If your goal is to get through a dungeon the fastest, having much more HP for your healer to DPS around (Since ya know, our AoE DPS dumpsters yours) will allow for a faster clear.

For many of us it isn't about our personal DPS, but about the speed of the run. STR tanks make runs take ages, add stress and are a general a drain on the group. VERY few tanks are good enough to be worth it in full STR.

FWIW: I advocate that the system needs to change...or STR AND VIT need to be on right side.

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Originally Posted by Cirith

So this tank goes in pulls 1 group of 3 monsters, takes 3 hits and died before the heal can be off. I'm on my dps watching this tank wearing all strength jewelry and I'm like are you serious why would you wear dps jewelry as a tank?

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I know plenty of tanks that wear STR jewelry with VIT melds. Their healers don't seem to care or mind.

So, let people build the way they want to instead of being a gear nazi. If their STR jewelry is preventing them from clearing content, then they'll adjust eventually.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Simple, carry two sets of gear, one for solo, one for group.

If your goal is to get through a dungeon the fastest, having much more HP for your healer to DPS around (Since ya know, our AoE DPS dumpsters yours) will allow for a faster clear.

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but why is is different for healers? is not this xpacs balance about you doing just your role? so shouldn't healers just like tanks stop trying to be dps and just do your job? why the double standard? why can healers get the chance to dps and not tanks? what your saying to me says that they should nerf healer dps.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

shouldn't you healers be worried about healing and not dps? no one likes a squishy tank, that much is true, but you have to understand how tanks feel having their dps nerfed, what fun is in the game for tanks with no dps?

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Talking about the current situation: WHM and AST will deal a lot more damage in dungeons when the tank doesn't require constant healing. A PLD in full tanking gear can smoothen the incomming damage so they can be healed comfortably by oGCD healing skills inbetween Holy/Gravity. If you want to go for clear time and see group content as a group performance, with the current state of being, it would be more efficient when tanks focus on migrating damage, taking the healing load of the healer and letting them drop the mobs.

Again, this is not a statement about how the game should be played, just an observation on group performance in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

but why is is different for healers? is not this xpacs balance about you doing just your role? so shouldn't healers just like tanks stop trying to be dps and just do your job? why the double standard? why can healers get the chance to dps and not tanks? what your saying to me says that they should nerf healer dps.

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Your argument is pointless. The thing is, the current state of the game is what we are discussing. If the choice is Tank AoE vs Healer AoE it isn't even a contest with the exception of SCH.

I don't think he's talking about AoE, HyperSMB. Tanks have never been able to compete with healer AoE damage.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Your argument is pointless. The thing is, the current state of the game is what we are discussing. If the choice is Tank AoE vs Healer AoE it isn't even a contest.

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The thing is, the current state of the game is tanks tank healers heal and dps dps. the devs have made it clear that that is their intended goal for classes.. So my point being how can you be mad that a tank is not fulfilling their role because of trying to dps, when you ar not fulfilling yours because you want to be a dps?

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Originally Posted by Adire

I don't think he's talking about AoE, Hyper. Tanks have never been able to compete with healer AoE damage.

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AoE is the only place the arguement matters since that is where the majority of dungeon time comes from; also, it is the only place in a dungeon where health is a serious issue either way.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

The thing is, the current state of the game is tanks tank healers heal and dps dps. the devs have made it clear that that is their intended goal for classes.. So my point being how can you be mad that a tank is not fulfilling their role because of trying to dps, when you ar not fulfilling yours because you want to be a dps?

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If this is true, why then wear STR gear if your job is just to tank? I am sorry, but you sound like you don't have a very good argument right now. No tank actually dies to a dungeon boss unless the healer is inept, even in STR gear.

As for the second, any good healer can do both. If the tank is reasonable at their job the healer has significant time to DPS. The issue is when tanks are so weak the healer has to heal AND blow CD's 100% of the time to keep up it simply slows the game down and is worse for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

healers would you be happy if you dps was back to being int based?

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This needs to happen. LOL and also healers cant wear int accessories past level 60.

i wonder how fast it will take them to get their heads around the fact that their damage never will go up past what can be melded;

Then the argument will be int healers. Because its the same stupid thing that SE did to the tanks. Bragging about that aoe deeps is the bomb, as a HEALER may be true, but its also very hypocritical, because if you got the same, youd be more sympathetic/would probably quit healing like a lot of tanks did/have already

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

AoE is the only place the arguement matters since that is where the majority of dungeon time comes from; also, it is the only place in a dungeon where health is a serious issue either way.

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It's not the only place the argument matters actually. As a tank, I notice and enjoy pushing my damage far more in single target. I don't concern myself with maximizing AoE damage nearly as much and never have, I imagine most tanks are the same way since staying in DPS stance and using AoE outside of when major CDs are up has never been a good idea in large pulls as a tank.

I just want to be more than a damage sponge in the majority of boss fights. Healers still get to do decent DPS in single target and AoE, how is it fair that tanks can't at least do decent DPS in single target fights?

They should either bring tanks back to a level of decency or nerf healer DPS to be at the level of tanks', as it's not fair at all the way it is currently.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

This needs to happen. LOL and also healers cant wear int accessories past level 60.

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Sure, if our gear passively got INT on it like yours gives STR on the left side. Strawman discussion.

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Originally Posted by Adire

-snip-

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Trust me, I sympathize. I am not saying your situation doesn't suck, simply pointing out your wearing STR gear slows the run down for everyone in a dungeon. I am not sure how it works out ST but I imagine since it is only right side it break about even with lost healer time if the healer is good.

I hope SE gives you back what you lost I do, I hate the STR tank meta as much as anyone.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

enmity scales with our damage higher str the more hate we hold, btw you have those CDs to use then, trust me as a tank i use mine, stop being lazy and use your kit to heal or roll a dps lol

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Going to try my hardest not to be rude, but a good tank requires only CD healing most of the time (barring huge pulls which the healer can space CD heals and base heals in between DPS), this allows for as much DPS to be put on the target as possible, clearing the content as fast as possible as well as allowing for reserved CD's like SC if things go bad. If a healer has to babysit you with everything he/she has, they have nothing or little when stuff SERIOUSLY goes wrong..

Not so much a problem in a dungeon setting, in a raid setting, this is an issue.

My rule is this: If I'm a DPS, I don't want to see my HP overtaking the tank's. That's a recipe for disaster.

Trust me, if a healer is DPSing instead of healing they certainly get blasted for it from all sides. They also get blasted if they don't DPS enough while they are healing. If you're trying to turn this around on healers don't bother, we've been getting dumped on by everyone for everything, you're late to that party.

The problem is that you full str ilvl 270 accessory tanks CANT LIVE THROUGH TANK BUSTERS. You pull whole packs in dungeons and if the healer stops spamming cure 2 long enough to wipe their nose they will die. If you have to stop the cure 2 spam to heal a DPS that took damage to a mechanic, the tank will die. Because you don't have enough health to survive because you're using gear from the last expansion. You're saying that healers should stop worrying about doing DPS? Fine. We'll worry about healing. Oh look, in the time it took to cast Cure 2 the tank has died because they have less HP then the dragoon but still took a tankbuster/pulled 4 packs of mobs anyways. Now I worry about healing and take to the forums to complain because there's a problem here.

That's the problem. If you're not causing this problem with your healers then trust me, no one cares that your dps is 400 higher because you snuck on a couple of STR rings, so good job and pats on the back all around. The problem is when tanks are so incapable of taking damage that you are detrimental to the completion of content. It is becoming enough of a problem that square enix has already said that they're going to address it.

Sorry the bad apples spoiled your bunch. As a scholar main it sucked to have bane practically deleted as well. Thems the breaks.

I'm better at dealing with squishy STR tanks as a SCH than as AST, but my DPS in big pulls is pretty garbage. It's basically aetherflow-excog-rouse-shadowflare-bio2-bane-lustrate-adlo-physic...you get the idea. Lucid as needed, aetherflow when it pops, whispering/covenant at worst. I just think I'm better with the kit.

Anyway.

It's basically healers and tanks arguing in circles. STR gear means more DPS and easier aggro hold for tanks, but results in less healer DPS and at worse forces healers to tunnel vision the tank, putting the actual damage dealer focused players at risk.

I hope SE improves tenacity and finally just puts STR on tank gear so we can all be happy. Because these tanks are about to slam iLVL limits and won't even have the choice.

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Originally Posted by Demise

Post #61

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its funny how all the top kills of the primal seems to be tanks in str gear, you understand with proper cool down usage you don't need but half the current hp pool for tanks. if you can tell by looking at my character i don't wear str gear, except in my left side materia slots, but my point being that the few level difference in the current gear VS the HW end game gear its is a minuscule difference, your talking maybe 10k hp, you issue is tanks that don't understand their class trying to run a harder build, any tank with half a brain knows if you gear for damage you have to be mindful of CD usage. SE needs to fix tank gear instead of you demanding they be nerfed further.

p.s. i edited you post to just the post number so i could fit all that <3

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Originally Posted by Adire

Removing tank damage scaling off VIT and making the only STR accessories tanks can use be ancient ones was a bad move. VIT should scale tank damage up again, or at least tanks should be allowed to wear up to date strength accessories. Allowing for neither is a strange choice.

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If tanks scale off of vit then tanks won't have any penalty to to their dmg for dying

Personally I'd rather SE just bring back +STR accessories for tanks. They're the ones who created a scenario, through piss-poor balancing with the 4.0 combat changes, wherein tanks deal more damage with i270 accessories than i320. Where does that make any sense?

Also, obviously tanks shouldn't prioritize DPS over survival, but at a certain point, additional HP is absolutely useless. Imagine, for a second, if healer accessories gave Piety instead of Mind. Wouldn't that be ridiculous? I know I'd still be using the i270 set if that happened. I don't need more MP in the vast majority of circumstances, because I know how to manage it properly. I need healing and damage potency. Similar thing going on with tanks.

In short, the OP and others supporting him should top picking on obvious outliers that represent bad tanks rather than damage-maximizing tanks. There's a difference between the two.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

its funny how all the top kills of the primal seems to be tanks in str gear, you understand with proper cool down usage you don't need but half the current hp pool for tanks. if you can tell my looking at my character i don't wear str gear, except in my left side materia slots, but my point being that the few level difference in the current gear VS the HW end game gear its is a minuscule difference, your talking maybe 10k hp, you issue is tanks that don't understand their class trying to run a harder build, any tank with half a brain knows if you gear for damage you have to me mindful of CD usage. SE needs to fix tank gear instead of you demanding they be nerfed further.

p.s. i edited you post to just the post number so i could fit all that <3

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I get you. My friend is a tank main and has half a brain and there's no problems at all. But I've party findered with multiple idiot tanks that are incapable to think beyond STR GOOD, 270 STRONG. MUST WEAR. who go ahead and get oneshot by the first tankbuster that hits them and then rage at their healers before quitting the group. There are tanks out there without two brain cells to rub together that read the str accessory meta on reddit, see that tanks on the top parses of fflogs run with STR accessories, and then stop thinking beyond that. Because if the best players can do it, they can totally right? Because they don't consider for a second that maybe they aren't actually that good and should stick with vit accessories for the sake of the run until they get good at their class.

And because those tanks exist and are currently making healers everywhere cry, square enix is going to act on it and chances are they have those blasted ilvl 270 accessories in their view. This, I am happy about.

What SE does beyond that, I have no feelings. It certainly doesn't hurt for tanks to do more damage and it's silly that they have no scaling stat to give them damage. I have full confidence that SE won't overlook something so basic and important. But they can't leave STR accessory meta as is because there's too many drooling lobotomy patients running around with less HP then the melee dps.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Sure, if our gear passively got INT on it like yours gives STR on the left side. Strawman discussion.

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Then I guess the brayflox gear set will be bis. Ans its not like they couldnt do it. But this argument has been going on since HW started up. If SE wants to go back to VIT/STR on tanks, its only air they split healers the same way with MND/PIE for their at least attack magic potency. St this moment im all for them going back, at least the accessories would scale damage/enmity gained/self healing, to whatever i level, But for the sake of this monochrome vision thats been recently spewed from the community, that if you want role balance, begin with that. Im all for dpsing healers and tanks, and since neither are DPS they should get a fair amount of the same treatment in regards to how effective their not their role capabilities are.

My position has always been for diversities sake, simple hybridization would work a bit more than rigid one role only do this cause this their role. Seems like balance is impossible for some, if you make every healer different, or every tank different. But I think its possible.

As far as the damage meta goes, it is what it is. And every step thats taken that pushes people out of playing a certain role, in my opinion is not the right step to take, especially now, especially with how badly balance is between either.

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

If tanks scale off of vit then tanks won't have any penalty to to their dmg for dying

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What? Last I checked, VIT went down when you died.

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Originally Posted by Adire

What? Last I checked, VIT went down when you died.

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...e7c51abfa95055

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The weakness and brink of death status ailments have been adjusted as follows:

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...e7c51abfa95055

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Ah, I see. Well one small tweak to make an exception for tanks is all that would be needed, nullifying that point made above.

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

If tanks scale off of vit then tanks won't have any penalty to to their dmg for dying

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Then they can just, y'know... make the death penalty affect attack/healing power directly, instead of going the roundabout way over main stats?

It's been argued to death already. The "health inflation" argument is dumb as well, as they can simply adjust the ratio at which VIT contributes to damage if they want to put considerably less VIT on gear in the future.

There are multiple ways to fix this and easily if one really wants. I don't get why SE is struggling so much. Do they seriously think VIT is a desirable stat in itself or what?

A 15% damage buff as long as the tank isn't in a party. I don't think that a group tank needs to worry about dps, but when you solo it is painful right now.

Just play the game the way square enix intended. Suck it up, put on the vit accessories of appropriate level, pull one mob pack at a time and get off your high horse. There is a reason square enix took vit out of damage calculations. There is also a reason AoE is nerfed in so many classes.

Play the game as intended.

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Originally Posted by Hitsuzen

Just play the game the way square enix intended. Suck it up, put on the vit accessories of appropriate level, pull one mob pack at a time and get off your high horse. There is a reason square enix took vit out of damage calculations. There is also a reason AoE is nerfed in so many classes.

Play the game as intended.

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....mark each and every add before using flash too?

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

....mark each and every add before using flash too?

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Use every tool in your kit :D

Most folks seem content to use the VIT accessories, and tank DPS optimization won't make one bit of difference one way or another in content below the savage level.

Savage balance is interesting but affects a minuscule portion of the player base. On top of that, we don't even have the content yet. If large hits come in at a rate that burns STR tank CDs faster than they can generate them, but leaves VIT tanks relatively comfortable the "problem" will mostly solve itself.

The STR accessory "problem" is one the vast majority of players won't feel, or even be aware of.

Sounds like this tank I just had in Omega V3 where they even said 'Nah I'm good for HP. This is the new Meta right now'

And proceeded to complain at the healers for not DPSing when they, and most of the DPS tired 2+ times each.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Use every tool in your kit :D

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I obviously have been doing it wrong since 2,1. Shouldve never stopped. They even gave us new waymarks so we can put "BAD" down to remind the party

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Originally Posted by Hitsuzen

Just play the game the way square enix intended. Suck it up, put on the vit accessories of appropriate level, pull one mob pack at a time and get off your high horse. There is a reason square enix took vit out of damage calculations. There is also a reason AoE is nerfed in so many classes.

Play the game as intended.

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Yeaaaaaaaah, no. SE doesn't like it when we break the game balance by doing things we weren't meant to do. They need to get over it.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

but why is is different for healers? is not this xpacs balance about you doing just your role? so shouldn't healers just like tanks stop trying to be dps and just do your job? why the double standard? why can healers get the chance to dps and not tanks? what your saying to me says that they should nerf healer dps.

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Because healers are not about "healing points per second", If you overheal, you are penalized for it. eg, Cure 2 and the lilies, no lilies for casting cure 2 on anyone at full HP. Likewise overhealing rips enmity from tanks. SE partially fixed this so that a single cure from someone in i310 gear doesn't rip the hate from a level synced tank in the 16-28 dungeons every time.

In an 8-person dungeon run or trial. The Main tank should be #1, and the OffTank should be #2. Your main tank will be 100% in Shield Oath, your OT will be 50% in Sword Oath, and Healers or Red Mages end up being #3 and #4. However a WHM who casts Medica II or a an Astrologian who casts Aspected Helios (regen (Dirunal sect)) will end up as #1 in nearly all content. Hence the healer toolkit is not about casting as much healing as possible, it's about casting healing at the right time to avoid overhealing as wasting mana. Hence why you don't EVER cast Medica II until there is party-wide damage, or you know it's coming in 3 seconds. If an Astrologian casts Aspected Helios (shields (Nocturnal Sect)) then that does much less enmity pull than the regen(diurnal version.)

The Tank toolkit is about keeping enmity. So if you have your Tank stance on, you are doing double the enmity pull as the DPS stance. You're also doing half the damage (Sword Oath, the actions hit the enemy twice, Shield stance or no stance hits it once.)

You'll also note that switch stances changes nothing in your stats, which is different from what Cleric Stance did on healers pre-4.0. If turning tank stance on/off simply swapped STR and VIT you'd have the same problem Cleric Stance did, which was making DPS useless in one stance.

This wouldn't be happening if they kept Tanks damage based on how much Vitality they have.