balance through Balance

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Time to remove your Fairy then with its abilities, your Deploy, your emergency tactics, your lustrate and your indomitability =]

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All of those abilities with the exception of Deploy have WHM and AST counterparts that are objectively better, especially with the Faerie nerf. Ergo I'm not entirely sure the point you're trying to make at all.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Time to remove your Fairy then with its abilities, your Deploy, your emergency tactics, your lustrate and your indomitability =]

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Sure. As long as your regens, your cards, Synastry, Benefic 2, Essential Dignity, Helios, and your buff extenders are removed as well.

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

Sure. As long as your regens, your cards, Synastry, Benefic 2, Essential Dignity, Helios, and your buff extenders are removed as well.

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Helios? Remove succor then and adloquium, since we won't have regens anymore.

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

Sure. As long as your regens, your cards, Synastry, Benefic 2, Essential Dignity, Helios, and your buff extenders are removed as well.

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And buff extender for what if we won't have anything to extend, oh wait... Potions? Can you even think?

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Time to remove your Fairy then with its abilities, your Deploy, your emergency tactics, your lustrate and your indomitability =]

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Okay. Then as an AST you lose Benefic 2, all healing magic up on your sects, Helios is gone (you can keep Aspected Helios), Collective Unconscious loses the regen effect, but you can move during it now, Earthly Star is gone, the entire card system is removed, you only have Noct Sect and hmm... Aspected Benefic has 2.5 second recast and cast time. Oh right. Light Speed is removed. There. Without the fairy, both tactics, lustrate and indominability, we're now equal. We both have Physick/Benefic, Adloquium/Aspected Benefic, Sacred Soil and Collective Unconscious, no fairy, no cards and no instant cast AoE heal. Fun right?

Okay what does WHM lose now?

This thread really starting to become hate thread now

I didn't think that this topic would get this salty but at the same time I feel like I should have known.

I've read through all the comments and just want to address a few things...

I never said nerf AST I said nerf Balance. If one move in your kit is your entire identity then I feel like my point is made. Even if they gutted AST's healing power down to the bare minimum needed to clear content and left Balance alone AST would still be a mandatory part of any raid group. AST's aren't really even healers at this point they're just a damage bump that happens to heal. This is a problem.

I said in my first post I was against homogenization and I stand by that but I am still open to the idea of adding damage buffs into the other healers kits to compensate for leaving Balance alone.

I do not think that with the Balance nerf they should bump AST's personal DPS. AST would still be bringing an assumed 10% damage bump to the party. That is more than satisfactory. Unless Balance dropped to something crazy low AST should still definitively have the lowest personal DPS.

I don't enjoy how this turned into a hate thread. Have your arguments elsewhere, have worthwhile discussion here.

I'm kinda not sure why they just haven't given Whm Haste and Berserk already to compete with Balance lol

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

I guess you can't read, right? I said SINGLE TARGET.

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Can I point out that you assumed I was thinking that?

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I do not think that with the Balance nerf they should bump AST's personal DPS. AST would still be bringing an assumed 10% damage bump to the party. That is more than satisfactory.

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To be clear: if the AST uses Balance on the party, then it is a 10% increase to outgoing damage for all party members in range of the target (unless an enemy is targeted, in which case, the user is the epicenter) for 30 seconds (where either the Ewer or the Spire must be used for Royal Road).
If it is single target, it is either 20% increase to outgoing damage for 30-60 seconds (depending if either the Arrow or the Spear were used for Royal Road, or if the Balance is used raw) or a 30% increase to outgoing damage for 30 seconds (if either the Bole or the Balance is used for Royal Road).

So if you meant what you said with regards to party buffing, then we're already there.
If you're saying to reduce the potency back to what it was, then halve each of the increases (but not the time limit increases) and we'll be back to where we were before Balance/Bole/Ewer/Spire were buffed.
Incidentally, it's also important to keep in mind that this does not increase attack magic or attack skill potency, as, say, Cleric Stance does. It's still an increase in damage, obviously, but the calculation seems to be different (in my experience, 10% increase from Balance is just a little teeny bit stronger than Cleric stance, basically granting about a rounded up 100 damage more on my lowest and highest hits with the 10% damage increase from balance than the 5% potency increase from Cleric stance, so take that as you will).

Also, @Supersun, I would imagine the reason why Berserk wasn't given to WHM, is because WAR has it as a personal ability. As for Haste, I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

To be clear: if the AST uses Balance on the party, then it is a 10% increase to outgoing damage for all party members in range of the target (unless an enemy is targeted, in which case, the user is the epicenter) for 30 seconds (where either the Ewer or the Spire must be used for Royal Road).
If it is single target, it is either 20% increase to outgoing damage for 30-60 seconds (depending if either the Arrow or the Spear were used for Royal Road, or if the Balance is used raw) or a 30% increase to outgoing damage for 30 seconds (if either the Bole or the Balance is used for Royal Road).

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I appreciate the clarification, my brain is a bit fuzxy as it's 3:50 am by me at the moment. You got what I meant though, halving the original 20% potency to 10% so that the group 10% would then become 5% when spread over the party. Thanks for the help!

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

Also, @Supersun, I would imagine the reason why Berserk wasn't given to WHM, is because WAR has it as a personal ability. As for Haste, I have no idea.

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Not necessarily a problem. For example in FFV White Mage has the berserk spell while there also is a Berserker class (which is probably what the War berserk is homage to). I mean the Whm spell could simply be giving a target the status that a War gets when using Berserk. Heck it could be interesting if Whm gives the OLD berserk when using the spell.

Huh?

Seriously nerfing ast will not fix scholar MP issues or aoe healing like do anyone actually pay attention to the glaring issues before posting on the forums...

whm is seriously strong its the best healer and got the highest dps out of the 3 healers

Ast got decent heals and Rng cards to play with... if we draw balance its a bonus if we do not then we play with the cards we was delt with but ast is the lowest dps out of the 3 healers

Sch is the best against raid damage... with adol with deployment tactics it beats ast aoe shield

The roles for healers have change which players have not adjusted to


WHM = strongest healer / high damage
AST = Buffer / weakest damage
SCH = Shielder/ medium damage

An no ast shield is not stronger then sch..... a scholar adoloquim with deployment tactics dominates ast shield plus with sacred soil... scholar have the best kit out of all 3 healers to protect the raid from large incoming damage

Aspect benefit only effects 1 player

There is also been a post on these forums with maths included which proves that SCH shield is still stronger then astrologian shield

Aspected benefit is 140 potency that gives a 250% shield.... costs 1440 mp

Adoloquim is 300 potency which gives a shield base on the hp restored and when u crit the shield is doubled.... cost 507 mp... also benefits other skills ... deployment tactics...emergency tactics

Scholar shields cost WAY less then astrologian shield.... ast nearly cost 3x more mp then sch version also scholar can spread it across the raid for 0 mp cost

Problem i see with scholars is that they still trying ti play like they did in hw.... scholat have a solid kit to prevent raid dmg...it dominated ast and whm kit

Indomitability is 400 potency on a 30sec cd.. = 800 potency within 60 sec

Earthly star is 540 potency when used below 10sec.... turns into 720 potency after 10 seconds ... 60sec cd

Sorry my bad on mobile cannot edit the post sch adol is not 3x cheaper was my mistake

But scholar got the best kit out of the 3 healers to deal with raid wide damage by reducing the total incoming dmg by clever usage of skills

Whm is the best healer to keep raid alive and offer strong dps when not healing

Ast provides raid with card buffs have decent heals to keep the raid healthy

As a healer technically u would want all 3 healers maxed out and change base upon which is more useful for the current boss

Whm = would need if u need a lot of healing within the raid and can deal with most situations flawlessly

Sch = would need if u need a lot of damage prevention or if mechanics require split healing (double prey for example)

Ast = would need if u need to provide raid with more dps through cards or split healing through clever use of synasty

each healer have a roll which depends on the mechanics at hand which players neglect

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

There is also been a post on these forums with maths included which proves that SCH shield is still stronger then astrologian shield

Aspected benefit is 140 potency that gives a 250% shield.... costs 1440 mp

Adoloquim is 300 potency which gives a shield base on the hp restored and when u crit the shield is doubled.... cost 507 mp... also benefits other skills ... deployment tactics...emergency tactics

Scholar shields cost WAY less then astrologian shield.... ast nearly cost 3x more mp then sch version also scholar can spread it across the raid for 0 mp cost

Problem i see with scholars is that they still trying ti play like they did in hw.... scholat have a solid kit to prevent raid dmg...it dominated ast and whm kit

Indomitability is 400 potency on a 30sec cd.. = 800 potency within 60 sec

Earthly star is 540 potency when used below 10sec.... turns into 720 potency after 10 seconds ... 60sec cd

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What in the hell are you talking about?

Adloquium costs 1440 mana at level 70, cures 300 potency and shields for 300 potency. At a 25% crit rate (which is generous), the average shield potency is 375.
Deployment tactics has a 120 second cooldown.
Indomitability heals for 400 potency, has a 30 second cooldown, and costs an aetherflow charge.
Succor costs 1800 mana, cures for 150 potency and shields for 150 potency, 300 total potency.


Aspected Benefic costs 960 mana at 70, cures 200 potency, and shields for 500 potency.
Aspected Helios costs costs 1800 mana, aoe cures for 150, and shields for 225 potency, (375 total potency, backloaded into a shield) and has no cooldown.
Earthly star is as you said.

I'm not even going to comment on how wrong you are, but the number of mistakes you made in your analysis should go reasonably far to show how much attention should be paid to what you said. If you want a healer specialising in shields, currently you take an astrologian.

I'm gonna try my hand at mathing potencies. Lets assume criticals are about 1.4x modifier since they got reduced.

Adlo is 300 base heal and shield goes up to 420 potency heal 840 potency shield on a crit. Aspected benefic is 200 base potency with a 1.15 modifier on noct sect so 230 base and has a 250% shield for 575 base shield on a crit however its a 332 potency heal and a 805 potency shield. So adlo only really wins on heal potency and even a critlo is nearly equal to a crit aspbene. Mp cost is 1800 adlo versus 1440 asp bene plus insta cast versus cast time, adlo loses there too.

We see an even bigger disparity with helios. 150 potency succor shield and heal both, 210 on a crit. 150x1.15=172 potency helios with a 150% shield of 258 potency so base helios beats crit succor...and for 1800 mp versus succors 2280. Ingame on my lvl 70 ast that's a 4700 aoe shield on a non crit with an i300 weapon, only beatable by deploy, if it crits that's a 7000 shield on whoever it crits on effectively beating everything but a critlo, and that's an on demand heal, not a two minute cooldown.

So how are scholars ahead on mitigation again?

Remove The Balance.

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Originally Posted by Furious

What in the hell are you talking about?
Aspected Benefic costs 960 mana at 70, cures 200 potency, and shields for 500 potency.
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WRONG

aspect benefit is 140 potency in noct sect... which is 154 potency with the 10% buff from nect sect

also i said i was wrong about the mp or did u not read the following comment? cant edit on mobile

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Originally Posted by MsTanya

Aspected benefic is 200 base potency with a 1.15 modifier on noct sect so 230 base and has a 250%

So how are scholars ahead on mitigation again?

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aspect benefic is 140 potency in noct sect.... which turns to 154 potency with the 10% improve healing with noctsect on

so redo ur entire math again as u got the wrong numbers for aspect benefic.....

u all confusing potency with ast....

DIURNAL SECT (regen stance)
200 potency on aspect benefic

NOCTURNAL SECT (shield stance)
140 potency on aspect benefic

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

u all confusing potency with ast....

DIURNAL SECT (regen stance)
200 potency on aspect benefic

NOCTURNAL SECT (shield stance)
140 potency on aspect benefic

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Do all of us a favor. Take a picture of the tool tip and post it, please. Actually, if anyone could, that would be great.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Do all of us a favor. Take a picture of the tool tip and post it, please. Actually, if anyone could, that would be great.

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[IMG]https://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/82...0706150936.png[/IMG]
.

The 140 potency is for the regen effect in diurnal. The base heal is 200 potency in both sects. Please learn your tooltips and thank you Namo for screencapping it.

http://i.imgur.com/LXEWom8.png

@Yhisa - While I can appreciate your passion for the job as you have shown in the past back in the 3.0 days, you should really brush up on what has changed and try not to spread incorrect information. (ie. Aspected Benefic only healing for 140 potency, Nocturnal only giving 10% healing bonus)

[edit] oops, beaten, heh.

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

WRONG

aspect benefit is 140 potency in noct sect... which is 154 potency with the 10% buff from nect sect

also i said i was wrong about the mp or did u not read the following comment? cant edit on mobile

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WRONG

Who's surprised at this point though?

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Originally Posted by Furious

WRONG

Who's surprised at this point though?

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To be fair to Yhisa, you're not totally accurate either in your post.

Nocturnal Aspected Benefic is a 230 potency cure that shields for 575 potency once you allow for the Sect bonus and costs 1,440 MP according to the above tooltip (not 960)

What's actually really discouraging about the single target shield power is if you even take into account critadlo, the shield is only 840 potency (300 potency X 1.4 crit multiplier x 2 for Adlo bonus). When Aspected Benefic Crits it's 805 potency (230 potency X 1.4 crit multiplier x 2.5 for Aspected Benefic modifier) so critadlo shield is only ~4.3% potency stronger when you compare critical heals.

...and let's not even get into Succor vs Aspected Helios.

Stepping back from the numbers for heals...

I think that changing The Balance so that it is 10% or 15% instead of 20% would be a good idea. Should it be removed? No. Is it the central identity of the class? Also no, it's the cards that are the central identity. If you remove The Balance, you need to replace it with another effect. Honestly, I am not sure where people are coming from when they say that The Balance should be removed.

If we have a 10% Balance, then we can safely use The Arrow as a useful card (compared to fishing for Balances). At this potency, they'd have roughly the same effect. I'd argue that, barring TP and MP issues, Arrow would be better situationally because it means you can both buff healing at the same time as well as fit more GCDs into the same attack window. Heck, I'd argue that the values for The Arrow and The Balance could be swapped. Mainly because The Arrow with a high attack speed potency would cause TP/MP issues unless your party comp has good self-sustain.

So yeah, 10%-15% Balance would be something I would be willing to have as an Astrologian main.

Edit: If they wanted to make an interesting effect, they could make a card that would instead increase the healing potency of all healing magic cast by the target, or maybe cast on the target. Would be a nice pairing if we wanted, say, an AST/(WHM or SCH) party, where the AST could directly increase the healing potency of the mage with stronger healing spells. That said, it would also be highly situational, but I feel I'd prefer that over The Spear.

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Originally Posted by WayofTime

Stepping back from the numbers for heals...

If we have a 10% Balance, then we can safely use The Arrow as a useful card (compared to fishing for Balances). At this potency, they'd have roughly the same effect. I'd argue that, barring TP and MP issues, Arrow would be better situationally because it means you can both buff healing at the same time as well as fit more GCDs into the same attack window. Heck, I'd argue that the values for The Arrow and The Balance could be swapped. Mainly because The Arrow with a high attack speed potency would cause TP/MP issues unless your party comp has good self-sustain

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Thank you for getting back on topic!

I love all these ideas. Personally I don't think 15% from 20% is enough, it really needs to be reduced to 10% at most. Basically the damage gained by Balance would need to be something that a strong player of another healing class could conceivably output on top of that AST's personal DPS.

The end result of this conversation is basically summed up in a few points.

All healers must be able to heal all content with all party compositions assuming sufficent player skill.

AST is just as (if not more in terms of their comparison to SCH) capable of healing anything in the game right now.

AST brings the most DPS to the table with Balance, more at this point than either other healer could generate even with max DPS uptime.

AST can perform the same essential function that WHM/SCH do but then has this buff ON TOP OF THAT.

There is no change necessary to the rest of AST's kit at this point. If they're having trouble healing without the quicker clears brought on by Balance then tune their kits up but I don't think that should be necessary aside from perhaps some care around their MP management. Either way the changes need to start at Balance.

Edit: I want to play AST. I am leveling it right now. The thing that keeps me from fully enjoying myself is the idea that I am just keeping everyone up while fishing for Balance. I want to use the whole kit and I don't want to feel like a poor player just because RNG didn't give me my one viable card.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

one viable card.

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I assume avoiding this feeling is the reason why they removed the AST cards from player view.
Honestly, I've never felt this pressure. I've only received one complaint, and it was from a DPS who was unhappy that I hadn't used a card on him specifically (it was a series of ewers, spears, and a single bole that run).
I believe that, if you're just fishing for the Balance, you're wasting your party's potential, and you're failing to perform a function that an Astrologian can perform really well: helping jobs feel special. Especially as of this expansion, each job has a card or two that's really useful to them. For Samurai, it's the Balance. For Bards, the Arrow (shocking, right?). For Summoners, the Spear (surprise, Bahamut likes these).
I would say, just try to emphasize each job's individuality, and avoid thinking only about "efficiency," because, in the end, DPS is not supposed to need you to succeed anyway.

They ARE NOT nerfing balance, otherwise it would be gordias/midas again; where nobody used AST. For God's sake stop trying to take our identity off from us. Stop afking as healer and dps a bit as whm. AST rotation was NERFED TO THE GROUND and it's the most boring rotation of all the 3 healers. So pls... Can this topic be closed now?

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Are you actually kidding, right?
Even with the buffs on sects WHM still out HPS AST . WHM got 2 new INSTANT heals, assize reduced its CD and now they can spam Cure 3 with Thin Air.
"Ahh but AST got earthly star" yeah we did but it IS NOT an instant heal.
"Ahh but AST got The Lady of Crowns" since we never use it because we always want The Lord, because SE nerfed our damage to the ground.

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Out HPSing with cheesing does not constitute the state of balance, sorry :x
Earthly Star, all things considered, is technically an instant. It can be placed and detonated immediately and it hits hard.
Lady of Crowns can be spent on tank busters with B2. It's not completely worthless. When we had cards that had no use other than RR fodder that was as low as it got.


I'm not saying AST needs to be toned down, just those aren't the points you need to make to defend us.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Earthly Star, all things considered, is technically an instant. It can be placed and detonated immediately and it hits hard.

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Although Earthly Star doesn't have cast time it's really nothing to count on if you need a quick heal. Even when it's already set up it takes time to explode and heal the target after you do the healing casting animation. It's a really good skill (even debatable that a bit OP due to potency) but certainly not an instant heal like Assize or the Scholar one.

each job needs their own niche you said. shielding was the SCH niche and AST now do it better. more potency. less MP. instant cast. the class is clearly overturned.

From AST/SCH main

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

They ARE NOT nerfing balance, otherwise it would be gordias/midas again; where nobody used AST. For God's sake stop trying to take our identity off from us. Stop faking as healer and dps a bit as whm. AST rotation was NERFED TO THE GROUND and it's the most boring rotation of all the 3 healers. So pls... Can this topic be closed now?

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If Balance is the only thing that makes people want to bring AST, then AST by definition is not balanced and would need to be adjusted, so Balance would have to be nerfed to even out the power of the job.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

They ARE NOT nerfing balance, otherwise it would be gordias/midas again; where nobody used AST. For God's sake stop trying to take our identity off from us. Stop faking as healer and dps a bit as whm. AST rotation was NERFED TO THE GROUND and it's the most boring rotation of all the 3 healers. So pls... Can this topic be closed now?

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Forget nerfing, if they removed Balance completely, AST would still be a WHM with some better potency base heals and other party buffs in diurnal, and it would be a better SCH in nocturnal. That alone should highlight that AST needs to be toned down in some departments.

For the record I'm not saying they should remove the Balance card, what I'm trying to point out is that AST has a lot more going for it. There's a reason the rest of us are calling it OP, perhaps the most OP job in the game right now.

People act like AST can guarantee 100% uptime on AoE Balance or something.

No, it's tied to RNG, and as such is subject to streaks where an AST isn't going to get even one AoE Balance the whole fight.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

They ARE NOT nerfing balance, otherwise it would be gordias/midas again; where nobody used AST. For God's sake stop trying to take our identity off from us. Stop faking as healer and dps a bit as whm. AST rotation was NERFED TO THE GROUND and it's the most boring rotation of all the 3 healers. So pls... Can this topic be closed now?

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No, this topic won't be closed now because this isn't about only the opinions and hurt feelings of some entitled AST mains who can't seem to grasp the conscept of healer balance.


AST may have had their personal DPS take a hit, any idea why? Because they have the single best buff in the game right now. If AST didn't represent a huge gain to party DPS they would still be a flexible, comprehensive healer that offered other forms of utility.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. Any complaints about AST right now can (and should) be summarily tossed aside with no more response than "that Balance tho" and it is actually a perfectly valid response from the perspective of healer balance.

AST needs to lose Balance not only so that other healers aren't ommitted from progression and content but also because they need to grow into their true identity - the utility represented by the cards as a whole. If Balance is AST's identity then are WARs just Fell Cleave? WHM's just Assize? No, we have entire kits.

So do you. Use them.

Also, not that you would know, but I do wonderful DPS as WHM. I am a huge supporter of healer DPS in general. Even though I say this I know I can't make up the difference in DPS gained by a Balanced DPS opener party wide. That has nothing to do with "faking healing" and everything to do with math and a basic understanding of how this game works.

Honestly if I were SE I would limit healer DD buffs to be strictly single target on the DPS themselves. So long as some classes have AoE DPS buffs and others don't it'll be impossible to balance healer damage between both 4 and 8 man content because of the effect being doubled in 8 man. Either Whm will have enough personal DPS to compete in 8 man which in that case Whm will obliterate everything in 4 man, or Whm will be balanced for 4 man, but will under perform in 8 man since their personal DPS won't be enough to catch up to the AoE buffs.

The better to balance around in the future way to "nerf balance" would be to instead remove the ability to AoE the cards in the first place where the cards are only single target (and stratagem would buff 1 ally instead of debuff the monster) and then personal DPS and DPS buffing should be able to be balanced.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Useless stuff.

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Ahh, I see. Most of the guys who complain about ast are whms. Hmmm. Ok so. You can't think so much I guess. AST's balance is not a buff that 100% of the time you'll have. Don't say stupid things without know. Ah nvm... I guess you are some of those whms that don't dps; probably overhealing/afking.
And about AST for progression?? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaa yeah you should be kidding. Yeah, again balance is RNG, but even so AST HAS NOT the same safety heal than WHM does. So, yeah go learn about dps as WHM and then you come back to say "balance needs to be deleted". Ah and btw; learn astrologian too before you saying stupid stuff about it.