LOLSE, We're not wearing 270 STR to hold hate, c'mon now...

So omega raiding will look like a combo of two things for tank setups which will be PLD/PLD and PLD/DRK and WAR will be on the sidelines completely.

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Originally Posted by KorenA

Wasn't this the reason tenacity was introduced? lol...

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A stat that 1000 of increases damage by 1% and decreases damage taken by 1%! What a stat!

Why this fixation that ress sickness has to be placed on main stats? Why not just simply place it on secondary stats like attack power and give yourself more options when calculating those secondary stats?

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Originally Posted by Falar

A stat that 1000 of increases damage by 1% and decreases damage taken by 1%! What a stat!

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Still a better love story than parry

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Originally Posted by Soraki-Muppe

Why this fixation that ress sickness has to be placed on main stats? Why not just simply place it on secondary stats like attack power and give yourself more options when calculating those secondary stats?

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Because that would be logical

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Originally Posted by Soraki-Muppe

Why this fixation that ress sickness has to be placed on main stats? Why not just simply place it on secondary stats like attack power and give yourself more options when calculating those secondary stats?

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I don't understand the fixation on that idea either. SE has never mentioned the resurrection weakness as a reason for the stat change, even though they could have cited that in tonight's post and used it as a Get Out of Jail Free card with half the playerbase, apparently. It's just something that a few people started coming up with, sounded like it might have made sense, and then somehow turned into common knowledge that res weakness was the reason for tank damage to go back to STR.

The far more realistic explanation is simply that they just wanted tank damage to go down, by hook or by crook, so that there's less variation in DPS between high-skill and low-skill groups when it comes to raiding. At least that way it makes sense that they'd come up with these weird nonsensical "explanations" for the change instead of admitting it - it's just not a good look to say "We don't want skill to pay off very much."

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Originally Posted by Crater

I don't understand the fixation on that idea either. SE has never mentioned the resurrection weakness as a reason for the stat change, even though they could have cited that in tonight's post and used it as a Get Out of Jail Free card with half the playerbase, apparently. It's just something that a few people started coming up with, sounded like it might have made sense, and then somehow turned into common knowledge that res weakness was the reason for tank damage to go back to STR.

The far more realistic explanation is simply that they just wanted tank damage to go down, by hook or by crook, so that there's less variation in DPS between high-skill and low-skill groups when it comes to raiding. At least that way it makes sense that they'd come up with these weird nonsensical "explanations" for the change instead of admitting it - it's just not a good look to say "We don't want skill to pay off very much."

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True, but placing tanks attackpower on VIT and VIT alone would allow them to adjust our dps up and down to a point they like.
Read the answer Yoshi gave again and it makes less sense every time I read it, I feel like I am losing sanity every time I try to make sense of his words... this is some Cthulhu shit going on right here with Yoshi luring all tank players into insanity.

Sorry SE but this is bullsh*t

LOL, guys. GUYS.

EVER SINGLE PIECE of the new Fending accessories has Tenacity. Confirmed SE doesn't want you to even look at Fending right side.

i270 STR all the way baby!

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

LOL, guys. GUYS.

EVER SINGLE PIECE of the new Fending accessories has Tenacity. Confirmed SE doesn't want you to even look at Fending right side.

i270 STR all the way baby!

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that 1175 attack power in i 370 looking mighty sexy come 4.5

No big deal, one unmend with 2000x enmity multipluer means ill never lose hate

Am I misreading or misunderstanding the "HP inflation as a valid reason to not make VIT the damage modifying stat" argument?

"Equipping the only gear your job has available at this level may cause HP inflation, so we're not going to make your primary stat influence your weapon damage"?

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Originally Posted by Dseaver

Still a better love story than parry

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As a DRK, I disagree. I'm guessing the removal of parry also came at the cost of removing dark dance, reprisal and low blow procs. Serious question, why was parry such a shit stat? Did it scale horribly and was low on the list of defensive checks?

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Originally Posted by Faytte

And people wonder why no one in FFXIV likes to play tanks? WoW has done loads wrong but this isn't one of them.

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Tank balance is very different in WoW, though. Tank damage is a means to an end there (because damage dealt = aggro generated) instead of the penis-measuring contest it is here (as proven through all of last expansion and the resistance I've seen to the changes to tanks since SB launched). Tank gear also had more than just damage stats, since pre-WoD you had to balance other stats like Block Rating, Dodge Rating, and Expertise. So while gear had no class restrictions, no fury warrior/ret pally/frost DK in their right mind would get within 50 feet of a strength belt that also had Expertise or Block Rating because they'd be losing out on Haste rating or Crit.

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Add strength to fending gear, simple fix. Doesnt need to be 1:1 with dps accessories either, most of us would be fine with 80%.

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Assuming you want to give tanks very controlled amounts of STR, I'd say 60% is a safer number.

Tank here @.@ wearing vit has no issue here just need to do more enmity combo if our dps is low it's fine because the fight is designed for tank wearing vit so the dps requirement won't be so high

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

Tank here @.@ wearing vit has no issue here just need to do more enmity combo if our dps is low it's fine because the fight is designed for tank wearing vit so the dps requirement won't be so high

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Low dps checks sounds like a terrible gateway to solo tank content or sac techniques which all sounds horrendously boring in my book.

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Originally Posted by Cair

Am I misreading or misunderstanding the "HP inflation as a valid reason to not make VIT the damage modifying stat" argument?

"Equipping the only gear your job has available at this level may cause HP inflation, so we're not going to make your primary stat influence your weapon damage"?

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Move slowly away until you are at a safe distance, then run RUN FOR YOUR LIFE AND SANITY!

Re-reading the HP inflation thing actually gives me a bit of hope. This is how I interpreted it: they are looking at giving tanks scaled damage from accessories, but the 3.x formula may not have SB accessories give enough without inflating the amount of vit which would inflate the amount of HP we have further. I guess having a stat be tied to both HP and Attack Power can be a bit tricky to balance, though I am not sure why they couldn't just adjust the scaling. Then again, maybe they just want a bit more control and not have to worry about damage scaling and HP scaling in one stat.

This is what I am hoping what Yoshi P means. It is a bit of an optimistic view (which is honestly a bit out of character for me; I am usually more of a pessimist), but I feel like some meaning was lost in translating from Japanese to English.

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Originally Posted by Cevoh

Low dps checks sounds like a terrible gateway to solo tank content or sac techniques which all sounds horrendously boring in my book.

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if they designed tank to wear vit then the requirement for tank dps is limited so the overall dps check will be lower then of a tank wearing str it is only simple balancing, if they allow tank to go back to the vit+str formula they will have to increase the hp of the boss so over all the issue is not solved your numbers are noting

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

if they designed tank to wear vit then the requirement for tank dps is limited so the overall dps check will be lower then of a tank wearing str it is only simple balancing, if they allow tank to go back to the vit+str formula they will have to increase the hp of the boss so over all the issue is not solved your numbers are noting

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Actually, they stated before that they don't take into account Tank or Healer DPS when designing DPS checks. So unless they changed this, Tanks doing more damage wouldn't really affect the necessary DPS needed to meet checks.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Like i said, fluidity of the job itself, emnity issues, inability to perform role functions. If the job is no longer "fun" that is an issue. if the job is no longer "fun" because "mah deeps" I dont see that as a valid concern. I'm not saying WAR doesn't have issues right now, I'm saying DPS shouldn't be the issue everyone is complaining about, and that is why STR accessories is silly.

The whole Tank only runs of Savage is where the mechanics of the jobs broke the game. No other role can do this, especially while a tier is still "current".

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I don't think any Tanks here seriously want to sit and listen to someone who hasn't even Tanked in Stormblood act like they're somehow an expert on the state of 4.0 Tanking.

You may have mained PLD throughout HW as you said in your other post below. But if you haven't Tanked in 4.0 and are currently a melee DPS main you have no right to speak of the state of Tanking.

how about make a new main stat for tanks only that is not vit? every other class scales dps off main stat but tanks are the exception? why isn't SE upset about healer dps?

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Originally Posted by Baci

And here I have lost my last bit of hope that SE would be able to balance tanks. Its just wow they're so absolutely clueless on what is going on in their game

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I think they just pretend to be clueless so people rage less. But honestly, no idea why they want to thin out the Tank population even more.

SE needs to realize that in the game they created, dps is literally all that matters. It's not tanking hits real good, it's not healing real good, because once you meet the minimum you need of either of those, excess is useless. It's just damage, and abilities to increase others and your own damage. That's what is desireable, and even if tanks only did 400 dps we would still be looking for ways to maximize our damage output because that is the game that SE created. Hell, even if tanks did no damage, we would still pick them based on their ability to make dps and healers do the most damage.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

how about make a new main stat for tanks only that is not vit? every other class scales dps off main stat but tanks are the exception? why isn't SE upset about healer dps?

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Healers dps is even more tuned down than tank i think. During 3.0 tanks did nearly similar dps with healers with relevant str acc. Current tank can do same dps than healer even with vit gear. If you look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwfcTXtjXKA dps with healer and tanks is pretty glose and they are not using vitality.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

how about make a new main stat for tanks only that is not vit? every other class scales dps off main stat but tanks are the exception? why isn't SE upset about healer dps?

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I have to agree that it does feel pretty outrageous. I mean it makes no sense how Tanks are the sole ones getting shafted when it comes to damage. Since even Healers get to do better damage with how their damage scales off Mind. Even though their role is supposed to be Healing. So not sure why SE is so hung up on this idea of trying to force Tanks to only Tank and not care about doing damage on the side when the time is right when Healer damage doesn't get the same treatment.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

how about make a new main stat for tanks only that is not vit? every other class scales dps off main stat but tanks are the exception? why isn't SE upset about healer dps?

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There is one, and it's called Tenacity. But well, you know how that goes

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Healers dps is even more tuned down than tank i think. During 3.0 tanks did nearly similar dps with healers with relevant str acc. Current tank can do same dps than healer even with vit gear. If you look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwfcTXtjXKA dps with healer and tanks is pretty glose and they are not using vitality.

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Even though Tank damage was scaling off of STR at the start of 3.0 much like it is now in 4.0 it was a pretty significantly different situation. Because those 3.0 Tanks in that video you speak of were using CURRENT level 60 STR accessories! They weren't using old level 50 STR accessories from the end of ARR!

Meanwhile in 4.0 Healers can just use level 70 accessories from the current expansion and get their primary stat needed for dealing damage. Meanwhile Tanks have to use level 60 STR accessories from the end of the PREVIOUS expansion if they want to increase their damage!

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Originally Posted by Falar

A stat that 1000 of increases damage by 5% and decreases damage taken by 5%! What a stat!

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I fixed it for you according to the latest tests. While it's still not exactly stellar, at least it's better to state the actual facts, right?

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Maybe instead of advertising DRK/PLD/WAR as badass frontliners, they should just redesign them as leashed dogs with a robin costume because that's what the general community seems to believe what they should be.

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How about people stop considering that tanks that don't do high DPS aren't contributing to the fight, would you ?
You know, those jobs whose absence will get all the group killed in seconds

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting to do a decent amount of damage as a tank.

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There is when your only excuse for doing good damage is the gear you wear, instead of how skilled you are at your job.

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Originally Posted by Vallamaria

Even though Tank damage was scaling off of STR at the start of 3.0 much like it is now in 4.0 it was a pretty significantly different situation. Because those 3.0 Tanks in that video you speak of were using CURRENT level 60 STR accessories! They weren't using old level 50 STR accessories from the end of ARR!

Meanwhile in 4.0 Healers can just use level 70 accessories from the current expansion and get their primary stat needed for dealing damage. Meanwhile Tanks have to use level 60 STR accessories from the end of the PREVIOUS expansion if they want to increase their damage!

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I did not actually mean that. I mean damage from healers is nerfed compared what it was before and even vitality geared tank can surpass current healers dps. Back in days if tank used vitality gear, healer surpassed tanks dps. Also nobody used vitality during gordias even in savage. Imo best solution would be 50/50 str/vit so accessories would not be that dead weight and ress sickness would not affect different way for tanks than other classes.

1000/5% isn't bad, considering a body piece that is given to you literally for free gives 225. Substats went up by like 80% from ilvl 180 to 240, so they might grow similarly in bloodstorm.

Slowposted but I dont feel like editing in the appropriate quote by that guy a couple posts above.

I always find it weird that SE doesn't just make mitigation a thing. Make tenacity and other tank stats have a significant effect on damage taken and pump up boss damage to the point it's needed. How is it a shock that when you make healing OP and mitigation do almost nothing that tanks don't favor mitigation?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

How about people stop considering that tanks that don't do high DPS aren't contributing to the fight, would you ?
You know, those jobs whose the absence will get all the group killed in seconds

There is when your only excuse for doing good damage is the gear you wear, instead of how skilled you are at your job.

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Chyeah. Just like queues, only your presence is needed. You can be a garbo tank and still clear content. But ofcourse the casuals will feel bad about such a large skillgap. /s I don't need to repeat how pointless excelling in binary requirements is. Anyone worth their tanking salt should be aware of it by now.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I always find it weird that SE doesn't just make mitigation a thing. Make tenacity and other tank stats have a significant effect on damage taken and pump up boss damage to the point it's needed. How is it a shock that when you make healing OP and mitigation do almost nothing that tanks don't favor mitigation?

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This is actually really simple: they don't want people to be able to make wrong choices. See: removal of crafted/melded accessories and STR accs for tanks, removal of non-standard shields, removal of swords with varying auto attack delay (affects gauge, used to affect Sword Oath DPS). Really, in a lot of ways the removal of Accuracy was the death rattle of failed gear choices in this game. Sure, speed/tenacity probably isn't a great focus, but it's not as bad as someone who was 500 points over accuracy cap and had a million parry in HW. SE doesn't trust its players to gear themselves, so they have to make everything pretty much the same effectiveness.

Additionally, because of how ilvl works in this game in particular, having super important stats wouldn't work that well. Every piece of gear (sans aetherial) is Main Stat, VIT, Big Substat, Small Substat. There's usually only two choices at each ilvl, so if Tanking Stat is important and neither max ilvl piece has it you're either wearing something low level or going without. I don't really like the gear system (actually it's the thing I hate most about the game) but that's how it is.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

This is actually really simple: they don't want people to be able to make wrong choices. See: removal of crafted/melded accessories and STR accs for tanks, removal of non-standard shields, removal of swords with varying auto attack delay (affects gauge, used to affect Sword Oath DPS)

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I get that my point is just that this is their game. They could easily make mitigation do something, tone down healing, and increase boss dps. It's no real secret how to make tank stats important.

They could, but if tank stats become important then they'd have to start balancing around tank stats, which would again mean that if Jimmy Spellspeed the poorly melded paladin tries to tank something he'll get clobbered. I wish they actually would do stuff like that, but whattayagonnado. Game's super casual in all the bad ways.

To answer this topic STR does help with holding hate since our Aggro combo combine with how STR. How much STR that we did how much we can hold Aggro this why when I see tanks. With nothing but Vit to put STR V or VI that they have hold Aggro better.

We can all agree that the gear doesn't make player better. It's player that's make gear and his job better. I am mixture of two camp but leaning more into pro STR but some people gotta understand that sometimes having too VIT is bad thing my reason is this. If you know how to work your cooldown and teammate helping you reduce the on coming Tank busters you be fine. In the end of day no matter is teamwork and knowing the fight is key.

Sorry if my grammar is bad but I hope you can read it.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

They could, but if tank stats become important then they'd have to start balancing around tank stats, which would again mean that if Jimmy Spellspeed the poorly melded paladin tries to tank something he'll get clobbered. I wish they actually would do stuff like that, but whattayagonnado. Game's super casual in all the bad ways.

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Well that's the thing, they want to prevent error so they say dps is the only important stat, then are shocked when tanks favor dps. I don't know what happened this expansion but SE has been made to look shockingly incompetent.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

SE has been made to look shockingly incompetent.

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where I'm from we call that Tuesday.

Having bigger health pools is not a likeable parameter for power progression. I thought that was a nobrainer nowdays.

Right now what is tank power progression? bigger health pools and enmity bonus? lol, none of those "FEEL" like power progression. Tanks want to kill stuff faster, tanks want to feel more powerfull.

Truth is, if you reduce tanks to a target dummy, its already low pop will get even lower.. and trust me, you want tank population to go up, not down.

If you play a melee class using a giant axe or greatsword, even if its a tank, you want to dish decent dmg. Also, tanks have dps skills, dps combos, dps rotations. Of course every tank is aware they shouldnt have the dps of an ofensive class... but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be a relevant part of their power progression.

As long as tank dmg dont equals dps dmg, it should be considered as an important stat for the players. Either that or deal with the mass quitting of tanks (of the game or to another class).