MCH vs BRD (And why MCH need serious help)

The turret dies very rarely and even if so, you can instant cast it again.

They almost should make the pvp machinist for the pve, it's so more fun, quick, dynamic, powerful :p

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Originally Posted by Aerolithe_Lion

The turret is just a DoT that can be killed and could potentially be forgotten about if it is as it doesn't leave a debuff on the target. .

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I actually don't think I've ever seen my turret die this expansion.

According to 4.01 they buffed BRD's damage up so it affects the BRD itself now instead of just allies....lol. Why? Now its single target damage will be even higher?

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Originally Posted by Clawbriar

I actually don't think I've ever seen my turret die this expansion.

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I found out the hard way at the end of Temple of the Fist that a turret dying triggers Turret Reset :/

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

According to 4.01 they buffed BRD's damage up so it affects the BRD itself now instead of just allies....lol. Why? Now its single target damage will be even higher?

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It only affects "Troubadour" the 10% magic Res/Def/or HP up skill

I understand in terms of Utility they want Bards to remain Kings/Queens since it's the core feature for Bards in FF. I think adding more utility to Machinist will just throw them back in as "alt Bard" like in HW. I think they need to tweak Machinist's potency's and adjust the punishments with over-heating. Bard is in a sweet spot right now even when pushing for lowest (second lowest) dps. Machinists I believe should have the potential to dps as high as a caster considering their difficult playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

The seems like the only class where a base mechanic punishes the player so harshly for what could be a single mistake.

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Ahahahahahahaha! Play SMN dude. Have fun!

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Originally Posted by Talec

Ahahahahahahaha! Play SMN dude. Have fun!

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Messing up an aetherflow stack is 2 to 3 minutes in the dumpster. Which I'll admit is absolutely terrible. You effectively get locked out of your best damage. But it is, to be quite honest, is not extremely hard to avoid. Ignoring that, while it is extremely punishing and SMN remains the job the most affected by dying, passively refreshing your dot (the equivalent of reapplying hot shot) would not suddenly tank your dps by almost 600p. Which it does for MCH. I would make a comparison to execution for post summon Bahamut and wildfire. But using Akh-morn twice is not exactly the epitome of intensity.

LOL. They just buffed BRD when no one even asked for it.
"FUCK MACHINISTS." - SE Team

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Originally Posted by AmandaLashaquoa

LOL. They just buffed BRD when no one even asked for it.
"FUCK MACHINISTS." - SE Team

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No one asked for it? Please, tell us more about it. I've read it plenty of times bards were disappointed their song doesn't apply to them. And it's only defensive buffs.
And about Battle Voice, it's just easier to use it, wherever is your ally.
I prefer to have everyone happy with their class, and it was something quick to do for bards. I mean it's ok to me if they buff BRD and Machinists, our time will come.

And btw, they fixed the "bug" with Flamethrower, so it won't interrupt anymore just cause our target moved an inch, so at least we have this buff.

But I agree anyway, Machninist needs way more for now and... yea, maybe SE doesn't care much about MCH after all. But just don't say no one asked for buffing this part of bards.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

No one asked for it? Please, tell us more about it.
they fixed Flamethrower, so it won't interrupt anymore just cause our target moved an inch, so at least we have this buff.

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I do not consider a bug fix, a buff.
I avoid use flamethrower cause we all know its shit and the only reason we ever use is if we screw up with Gauge, I'd rather do 5 hotshots than locking myself infront of a raid boss/trial ex.
Now BRD is EVEN better, Troubad. being applied to them IS unnecessary since MCH doesn't even have their DPS potential, its about balance; I've seen BRDs asking for it to apply to them, but every BRD knows that they're SUPPOSED to be weaker cause they are highly supportive, now they are WAY better than MCH in everyway;It won't take long for peoples to REFUSE to take MCHs into groups,regardless of how good you COULD have been in it;If my sentence is what bothers you so much about this subject, okay BRD did ask. But MCHs have been asking way more :)

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Originally Posted by AmandaLashaquoa

LOL. They just buffed BRD when no one even asked for it.
"FUCK MACHINISTS." - SE Team

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Bugfixes this time. Balance issues next time when Savage drops. What is so hard to understand about that?

I really really hope we dont get any utility or group anything i want raw solo Damage like sam...big gun BIG Damage let bard bring utility dance and song to the party ill bring my big gun.

Yes indeed we have asked more, I don't actually get what's going on in SE's mind, tbh. Maybe they don't want to just give more potency but look for another way to improve our dps mechanic :/ So they won't have to be like "ok we remove you some potency because we found some better system to improve your overall dmg". I hope it's kinda this.

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Originally Posted by AmandaLashaquoa

Now BRD is EVEN better, Troubad. being applied to them IS unnecessary since MCH doesn't even have their DPS potential, its about balance; I've seen BRDs asking for it to apply to them, but every BRD knows that they're SUPPOSED to be weaker cause they are highly supportive

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A defensive cool down for the whole party is a bad cool down if it doesn't apply to the whole party - the Troubadour change was necessary.

Also, the "weaker due to being more supportive" should really apply to the offensive capabilities (and Bards do not benefit from either the 2% crit of the songs nor the buff from Battle Voice), not party-wide defensive abilities meant to protect the entire party.

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Originally Posted by AmandaLashaquoa

It won't take long for peoples to REFUSE to take MCHs into groups,regardless of how good you COULD have been in it

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Oh you mean like in Gordias, then they were so desperate for them in Midas people were making their BRDs hurry and level MCH?

I'll be laughing just as hard this time too if anyone's foolish enough to refuse any job.

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Originally Posted by AmandaLashaquoa

I avoid use flamethrower cause we all know its shit and the only reason we ever use is if we screw up with Gauge

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This isn't true at all :x

It definitely has uses outside of getting you back up to 50 heat (Which isn't one of the reasons in the first place- you're better off using 1-2-3 +hotshot while avoiding Quick Reload to get your heat back up to 50)

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Originally Posted by AmandaLashaquoa

LOL. They just buffed BRD when no one even asked for it.
"FUCK MACHINISTS." - SE Team

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

According to 4.01 they buffed BRD's damage up so it affects the BRD itself now instead of just allies....lol. Why? Now its single target damage will be even higher?

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The Troubadour change was not a buff to a bard's DPS; our personal damage is unchanged by it, just as it was unchanged by it prior to the change. All it changes is the Troubadour effects of songs (reduced physical/magical vulnerability for Paeon/Minuet and increased Max HP for Mage's) affecting the bard singing the song. We still do not benefit from the 2% crit buff of our songs, nor BV. And this change was necessary because it was poor design for the skill to give everyone but the bard casting it additional protection/survivability.

Many bard mains expressed dismay of Troubadour not affecting them. I, too, thought it was a dumb design choice. I can live without the 2% crit buff and even the 15% buff from BV because my songs no longer decrease my personal damage by 10%, so it's a fair trade-off in my opinion.

MCH needs a lot of help. Everyone here is basically in agreement of that (some of us regardless of our personal opinion of the funness of the job). More changes are to come in 4.05, so MCH mains need to hope for the best two weeks from now.

I love how people are going THE change aint a buff even thou its a buff as clear as day to anyone. Before they were not getting their dmg increase by their songs now they are getting the dmg increase ITS A DAM BUFF.

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Originally Posted by Shhikasan

I love how people are going THE change aint a buff even thou its a buff as clear as day to anyone. Before they were not getting their dmg increase by their songs now they are getting the dmg increase ITS A DAM BUFF.

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Troubadour does not augment damage. Please read the tooltip for the skill.

Troubadour gives added effects to the party depending on the song being sung:
Mage's Ballad: increased Maximum HP
Army's Paeon: Reduced physical vulnerability
Wander's Minuet: Reduced magical vulnerability

It DOES NOT affect the 2% crit buff (which BRDs never got and still do not get), nor does it affect Battle Voice.

Copied directly from the tooltip:

Adds an additional effect to the song currently being sung.
Mage's Ballad Effect: Increases maximum HP by 15%
Army's Paeon Effect: Reduces physical vulnerability by 10%
The Wanderer's Minuet Effect: Reduces magic vulnerability by 10%
Duration: 30s
Can only be executed while singing Mage's Ballad, Army's Paeon, or the Wanderer's Minuet.

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Originally Posted by Farrell

Bugfixes this time. Balance issues next time when Savage drops. What is so hard to understand about that?

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Yoshi P the man himself told you that? Nice.

Btw bards, Our "Foe Requiem" reduces phys/magic resistance too by 5%
Aaand! it lasts 10 seconds.
Yours reduce by 3%, but you have 2% crit full time (if you play it right)
And it lasts as long as you have MP
You now not only deal more dmg (due to having so many DoTs, faster playstyle and dmg ups like crit+ dmg+)
But you are also have more defensives!
*Corrected*

Have a little empathy :)

Oh, this has nothing to do with us MCH, but yes it does happen and I won't doubt if it ever happened to any other MCH.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Oh you mean like in Gordias, then they were so desperate for them in Midas people were making their BRDs hurry and level MCH?

I'll be laughing just as hard this time too if anyone's foolish enough to refuse any job.

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https://scontent.frao1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...e5&oe=59CB3754

REDUCED physical/magical VULNERABILITY, which is applied to your ALLIES. Read it more carefully, and then process it for a minute.

It's a defensive skill. When you become less vulnerable to something, you take less damage from it. When your party becomes less vulnerable to magical damage, they take less magical damage. There is no offensive property to this.

MCH has enough real things to complain about, no need to make stuff up. It only de-legitimizes the case.

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Originally Posted by AmandaLashaquoa

Have a little empathy :)

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I do think MCHs need help, but reduced VULNERABILITY is not the same as an OFFENSIVE buff. Troubadour has never affected the 2% crit buff for ANYONE, party or BRD casting it (and the BRD singing still does NOT get the 2% crit effect). People need to understand this before they come here and complain about BRDs getting a DAMAGE BUFF, which we DID NOT get.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

REDUCED physical/magical VULNERABILITY, which is applied to your ALLIES.

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You'd think they would have picked up on this fact after it was mentioned as a defensive ability on previous pages before the rant on this page.

If the plan, because SE rarely nerfs anything, is to use brute-force buffs (as is their wont) to bring all jobs up to SAM / NIN level - my inclination re: BRD/MCH (noting that obviously all non-SAMNIN jobs would need to get something) would be:

- Replace the piercing debuff on Disembowel with some self-buff for DRG.
- Make Hot Shot 15% instead of 5%, fix some QoL things
- Make Straight Shot 15% instead of 10%
- Make Army's Paeon 8% per stack instead of 4%

This should see MCH gain ~3% or so on BRD, which is roughly the contributed-damage gap on Susano (I don't want to read too much into Lakshmi given its particulars). And then you could see how savage plays out from there.

SE seems firm in their belief that mobility requires a damage penalty, so we'd still be well short in overall contribution compared to the dynamic duo. I'm unsure if that's actually a correct stance to take, but who knows, they could be right with the way these fights look.

I posted this in another thread, but I felt it deserves repeating here. The current rotation for the class depresses me with how clunky it feels.

As for FT- I don't see why I can't move while using it. At a reduced speed? Sure. But it's frustrating when every little movement I make wastes the ability.

I find myself skipping OH on WF entirely, only pushing it when additional burst is necessary. I know this gimps my DPS a bit, but it just feels more fluid than the current meta rotation.

The lockout and removal of GB after OH feels too punishing to be worth the 10%, imo. Instead, why not just reset heat to 0? Is that not punishing enough? Ultimately, I'd like to see less focus on a perfect WF and more into sustained dmg, maybe by buffing the potency of Heated Shots while between 50 and 100 heat.

With the current state of MCH, I've been seriously contemplating abandoning my most beloved class for BRD, and that makes me really sad. :(

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I'd like to see less focus on a perfect WF

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Honest question - why is this the "focus"? In 3.x, centering everything on WF made sense because it wasn't just about WF but also the up to four other damage cooldowns you had in tandem with it, totaling up to some +84% bonus damage beyond 25% from WF. It was about milking a massive burst phase, moreso than WF in particular.

But looking at things now, WF appears to range from 4.25 to 5.75% of a MCH's dps (even on bad runs). The apparent takeaway is that getting super caught up in trying to build perfect WF's is a minor optimization at best, and a significant loss at worst if you make enough sacrifices in the process.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

But looking at things now, WF appears to range from 4.25 to 5.75% of a MCH's dps (even on bad runs). The apparent takeaway is that getting super caught up in trying to build perfect WF's is a minor optimization at best

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Think of WF as an extension of your overall damage. With a good rotation, the closer you get to 6% the better your overall damage is. Your damage is high regardless because of a rotation in which CDs are sync'd. During the time of setup, your wildfire window is also in the buff windows of other jobs and our own, so you're pushing your big damage at the time of most burst CDs to get higher overall damage. The Wildfire explosion at the end is just a cherry on top.

It's not the case that we're doing a subpar rotation around a WF. It just so happens that the optimal rotation lines up every time with our wildfire and we push ourselves a tiny nudge using an OGCD to optimize it because why not.

MCH sucks now

Well, I don't see your point bards, are you asking for more buffs now or what?
You still have DoTs, you have more dmg+ skills, crit+ , now you have defensives.
What is your point, BRD? To say we are equals? or what? What are you complaining about?
MCHs do have every right to rant, your job is way ahead of MCH, what are you trying to prove? If you really can't output more DPS than a MCH then you should roll SAM; As far as I know it is really easy to play BRD, are you mad because we want better skills or what?
I corrected the text above, but even so, you are still at advantage.
"Oh troubadour doesn't give crit" - Yeeah, its some other skill that does, you can have 2% crit up for the whole party, so fucking what if it doesn't affect or used to affect you? Your parties are still better off with BRD than MCH.
Do you even care seeing the point or you just want to halt our chances to get a buff?

I'm not personally complaining about anything other than some people's complete lack of educating themselves before they come here to say a job got an offensive buff when, in reality, it did not.

BRD may be "easy to play," but when it comes to min-maxing the job, it is not "easy to play." Just like MCH seems "easy to play," but maximizing it is not. Actually, this can be said for most jobs: easy to play, not easy to fully optimize. By the way, our new Foe's only last 20 seconds now, 30 if we blow our MP Refresh with it. It is also unaffected by BV, since that skill got a complete rework, too. No where near the 70 seconds it used to last, but this argument is neither here nor there.

And please point out where I said MCH did not need help/restructuring? I loathe the job, and my experience with a lot of MCH mains has been sour (regardless of what some posters have said, I encountered a lot of MCHs during 3.1 who flaunted how much better the job was compared to BRD), but even so, I think SE's changes to MCH completely gave the job the shaft, and they need to fix it. I even said to some that I would be fine if MCH was higher with regards to personal DPS and had less support than BRD (not sure if that was in this thread or another one). But sure, I'm wanting to halt your chances at a buff.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm not personally complaining about anything other than some people's complete lack of educating themselves before they come here to say a job got an offensive buff when, in reality, it did not.
And please point out where I said MCH did not need help/restructuring? I

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I did never say your name, I did see you agree with MCHs, but I cannot speak for your equals

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

MCH has enough real things to complain about, no need to make stuff up. It only de-legitimizes the case.

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Sure, BRDs being more resilient, more dmging and also more supportive at the same role (ranged phys dps) does not mean that MCH has no stick (not to say short) at all.
If you cannot outdps a MCH (which I have seen before, believe it or not) then the problem is on your end, because the numbers are there.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

*snip*

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I hate to be that guy but, there's no MCH that would have flaunted how better they were compared to BRD in 3.1. It wasn't until 3.2 that we got our more substantial buffs. IIRC the only thing that happened in 3.1 was void ark got released. And on that same token, and again sorry for being that guy. "easy to play" is a reference to skill floor not skill ceiling. And currently, in order to be competitive, every job in comparison requires a lot less effort, and this includes BRD. Mind you the poster you're debating with is wrong. But not all of your points are correct either. But this argument is completely missing the point and going on an unconstructive tangent.

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Originally Posted by AmandaLashaquoa

*snip

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Oh Please. MCH isn't in such a poor state that you can't outdps people. And in any casual pug environment you at this very moment can be #1 or #2 DPS in every pug you join. It requires more effort sure, but it's doable at a baseline. Let's not over exaggerate

We really need to stop arguing about this. We won't be able to provide solid feedback this way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2xs...ature=youtu.be (sorry for the crappy video tho)
for the people that still think we're affected by our own 2% crit and battle voice.

I'm not gonna join in this discussion because i have no idea how MCH plays but we only have straight shot for crit chance and raging strikes for 10% damage buff.
Foes is way shorter in duration and i'm not gonna blow my mp buff because for that of high cooldown and if my healer need the mp (or other caster because they died) then i give THEM the mp. I rather wait and play it again after phase changes.
Crit got nerfed too and ALL of our mechanics are crit based so it is a little nerf.

Not like i care about being the highest dps tho... JUST INFOS. Don't hit me

I actually feel like I overreacted a little here <.<

MCH definitely needs a little damage buffing but its not too hugely substantial. And I may have messed up on Troubadour's effect....

Bard's raid utility sums up to about 1.5%, Machinist 1.25%. Bard does around 2% more personal damage. Bard's defensive utility is a little better thanks to Minne (I'd take Dismantle over Troub + WP, at least based on historic fight design).

This gap should be closed, of course. Any job balance gap should. But let's have some sobriety here - it's no bigger than the gap between MNK and NIN/SAM, and it's smaller then the gap from BLM to RDM. And certainly smaller than SMN's and DRG's woes.

It's just that there's also a broader issue, with rdps and casters lagging behind melee. Since some of rdps' value come via raid damage, the slightly weaker rdps looks like the worst job ever - even though DRG and SMN are actually in much bigger trouble. But then DRG being weak hurts us rdps further.

That's why I'd argue for a more holistic look at job balance, and the piercing debuff in particular. In the process, SE could choose adjustments that incidentally also close the MCH/BRD gap.

Sorry sorry! A few things, however

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

Bard's raid utility sums up to about 1.5%, Machinist 1.25%.

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Actually it's closer to 1.31% for Machinist to 1.8% for BRD.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

2% more personal damage

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Semantics I know but it's closer to 1.5% in a number of percentiles.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

This gap should be closed, of course. Any job balance gap should. But let's have some sobriety here - it's no bigger than the gap between MNK and NIN/SAM, and it's smaller then the gap from BLM to RDM. And certainly smaller than SMN's and DRG's woes.
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1. It is bigger than the BLM/RDM gap. That gap in particular gets smaller the higher percentile goes. SMN is indeed suffering and DRG gets the support clause.
2. There is no broader issue of rdps lagging behind melee. In certain fights, such as the one used for measurement, susanoo melee should absolutely be higher given their uptime.

3. That gap should exist but swapped around. BRD can take the DPS loss because of the support clause but it has no business doing more DPS than MCH while also being far more reliable in it's damage output given its sensitivity to mechanics that aren't outright jumps while providing far better offensive and defensive support.

That support clause of doing less DPS is fine when you provide support is fine. It's how they balance around slots. But RDM/BLM, MNK/DRG, BRD/MCH, and SAM/all. Is completely jacked up. But those are topics of another day. This topic is BRD/MCH. It would be easy to look only at rDPS increase and say "hey BRD and MCH is not that far off" but that is wrong.
- An on demand DPS increase during most other jobs burst phases.
- High benefit defensive cooldowns that don't require a target (meaning they're useable for attacks from multiple enemies or attacks that don't generate from the boss) that also lasts longer while being stronger. Mind you I don't want to undersell dismantle. But it's a weaker Reprisal.
- The ability to increase DPS in every way there is

If we're going to talk realistically. MCH right now is outclassed in every way that matters. Well that's not entirely true. We still have style. And i'm telling you, style goes a long way

I finally tried BRD a little before leaving for work today. I'd like to compile my thoughts on it in a different thread once I get to my desk. It won't be damage/potency-oriented though I may give some notable examples. Instead, I'd like to cover the full spectrum from functionality to aesthetics. As a forethought, it's not going to be a MCH bashing nor BRD glorification, and I'd like to keep it free of that for the sake of not detracting from the overall feedback.

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Actually it's closer to 1.31% for Machinist to 1.8% for BRD.

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I was probably incorrectly adjusting for none of Bard's support helping itself (that registers in Bard's own self-dps so it's already accounted for), but nonetheless you still have to account for people stacking DHit and avoiding Crit, which will be a thing. So both the crit buff and BV are worse than advertised, you're looking at 1.7% more likely since we're in precision land.

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It is bigger than the BLM/RDM gap

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At 95th, it looks about even. Shifts daily, was using some numbers I jotted down a couple days ago. BLMs are getting the hang of things.

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That support clause of doing less DPS is fine when you provide support is fine.

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"Support" in terms of boosting raid damage, yes. Defensive support, no not really. The difference between Mantra+Feint vs. Pallisade+Dismantle vs. Pallisade + Bard's island of misfit toys, isn't so substantial that any job should get its damage contribution dumpstered for it. Everyone has defensive support now, Bard just has a collection of weaker buttons to make it feel more supporty, when it isn't that much so in reality.

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RD can take the DPS loss because of the support clause but it has no business doing more DPS than MCH while also being far more reliable in it's damage output given its sensitivity to mechanics that aren't outright jumps while providing far better offensive and defensive support.

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It's not "far" better at all. 0.4% isn't huge (though it's something) and Dismantle is much better than Troub in most cases due to its freedom of timing and short cooldown, at least in historic fight designs where big persistent damage is rare.

And I'd question how you think Machinist is more messed up by non-jump mechanics. Do you mean turret death? That's the only thing that comes to mind. It's not like Bard can't get completely gutted by a poorly timed stun or whatnot.

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2. There is no broader issue of rdps lagging behind melee. In certain fights, such as the one used for measurement, susanoo melee should absolutely be higher given their uptime.

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Melee will always find that uptime though. SE has this bad policy of assuming melee will lose a boat ton of uptime in real fights, and then rarely makes it actually happen on the scale that they balance for. They make casters run around more than they make melee lose uptime.