Please Please Please Remove Esuna From CrossRole

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

All this BS with buffing one healer to the heavens, while pruning the living crap out of the others isn't getting it done, and the devs would have to be deaf, blind, and dumb to not be aware of this.

---

You are allowed to read what I've written before. They put in "Action role" all skills being a basic tool for everyone sharing a same "role" and not having difference whatever is the class you are currently playing. Every tanks should get Provoke, every MCH/BRD should get Refresh (restore MP) and Tactician (restore TP). Then you can get rid of some of those basic tools to get something fitting more the current situation if you know what you're doing.
It's not devs' fault if people are bad enough to don't pick Esuna when needed, as it's not their fault people see the current system as "boo, this is not part of my class anymore, and it's not mandatory according to SE's system". You can select it, it's part of your class that's all. And I believe those who don't get Esuna when needed would not have use it anyway. I saw several fights where we died because the healers didn't cleanse the debuff. And guess what, it was part of their base kit.

So as it was before, you just have to communicate to make sure the healer you're playing with will use this spell for X or Y fight. In an MMO, improving your communication skills is as mandatory as getting Esuna.

Adding an extra slot to the Role selection would go a long way to allowing for better customization. Having to cast protect, remove it and then continue just irritates groups due to the wait on the swap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fannah

They put in "Action role" all skills being a basic tool for everyone sharing a same "role" and not having difference whatever is the class you are currently playing. Every tanks should get Provoke, every MCH/BRD should get Refresh (restore MP) and Tactician (restore TP).

---

The difference being that with the Healer role skills, 4 out of 10 of them are things that all of the healers already had anyway, and had to be removed/nerfed from everyone to put in the role skills.

Lol, Machinist could already :
- restore MP
- restore TP
- stun 2 sec
- silence 1 or 2 sec
- heavy 40% 12 sec
- binding 12 sec
- regain 400 TP

We had 7 out of the 10 current action role skills which were already part of us... But now we can only use 5. So at least, you can take 4 as before and get a new one.

So what's the problem? You can still pick the 4 important skills. If SE wanted you to be able to pick other skills for your overall healing system, they would let you do so. If they didn't, it's planed. You can remove some of those skills when you know what to do to pick other ones fitting more the situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riyshn

The difference being that with the Healer role skills, 4 out of 10 of them are things that all of the healers already had anyway, and had to be removed/nerfed from everyone to put in the role skills.

---

Bard with same skills Machinist had :
- restore TP
- restore MP
- bind target
- silence target

--> The difference being that with the ranged dps support role skills, 4 out of 10 of them are things that all of the ranged dps supports already had anyway, and had to be removed/nerfed from everyone to put in the role skills.

Was more responding to the comment that all Tanks need Provoke, which was only removed from PLD.

And healers don't really have a choice. We've got Swiftcast (mandatory), Protect (mandatory), Lucid Dreaming (mandatory), Largesse (nearly mandatory), Esuna (mandatory or useless depending on fight), Surecast (Mandatory or useless depending on fight designs), Cleric Stance (nearly worthless), Break (nearly worthless), Rescue (potentially useful depending on fights), Eye for an Eye (Unreliable mitigation is unreliable). 4/5 of our slots are already decided, because these are very core parts of a healer's kit, and the last will be decided based on individual fights. There is no options here, no room for different playstyles. You either take the 4 plus one depending on which one is dictated by the fight, or you are severely gimping yourself. While it does suck that BRD/MCH lost their built in bind/silence, you can usually do just fine without those. (Agreed on Refresh and Tactician, though. It really does feel like chaning from cross-class to role actions has created as many problems as it solved.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyperia

Adding an extra slot to the Role selection would go a long way to allowing for better customization. Having to cast protect, remove it and then continue just irritates groups due to the wait on the swap.

---

What wait?

First, hardcast Swiftcast, then...

/macrolock
/macroicon Protect
/aaction Esuna off
/aaction Protect on
/ac Protect <wait.1>
/aaction Protect off
/aaction Esuna on

I've never encountered a situation in which I needed the Swiftcast before its CD regenerated after doing this at the start of a dungeon. There's no wait time, this can be done while running. I suppose you could do this with a 3 second wait, non-Swiftcast macro version as well, if you really dislike using SC for some reason. Or if you're swapping from a different class into a SCH and need your SC for Summon.

Though in the first place I don't really know why Protect still exists. It's entirely uninteractive and non-optional. Stoneskin would have been a far better skill to keep.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikazuki_Aura

snip

---

To be fair, I didn't know it was possible to swap role skills on the fly in a dungeon with a simple macro until I stumpled upon it in this forum. You can even include Swiftcast in the macro.

/macrolock
/macroicon Protect
/aaction Esuna off
/aaction Protect on
/ac Swiftcast <wait.1>
/ac Protect <wait.1>
/aaction Protect off
/aaction Esuna on

It's not the only case in which swapping role skills is good either. BRD and MCH have that party movement speed skill whose English name I'm not familiar with (green icon thingy) which can only be used out of battle.
Swapping role skills can only be used out of battle. There's an obvious synergy here.

Consequently, while having that skill around is pretty much compulsory to waste less time, leaving it as a permanent skill bar addition is pretty odd, and sacrifices utility you could otherwise have.

This is silly lol I've leveled my AST to level 70 and I substituted Esuna for cleric because like before you barely used it unless you were in one of those 24mans with the doom mechanic...or the low level dungeons pre 50

Anything after that you don't really need it, a good healer isn't going just just have esuna when you don't need it a good healer adapts to the situation....the leveling dungeons to 70 do not call for esuna except for the last boss of castrum when he puts that nasty dot on the tank...the rest is completely avoidable, the healer shouldn't be punished because some people can't move correctly...

But like I said it's very situational so during a fight like the first boss in the "fist" dungeon I will have it because people always seem to get hit with the paralyze...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aomine1992

the healer shouldn't be punished because some people can't move correctly...

---

Said the... dragoon? o.o Jokes aside, the same applies to damage taken due to avoidable AoE. It is your job as a healer to correct the little mistakes your party made because they can happen. They will happen. To fail is human. Well, the big mistakes though... you can't correct everything. Doesn't mean you have to pick Ensuna for every dungeon when you know there will not be any debuff worth removing.

4 man content: Protect on pull use macro then you have: Largesse, Esuna, Eye for an Eye, Swiftcast, Lucid Dreaming. Sub Esuna for Cleric if no dispel is needed in dungeons.
Raids: 1 Healer takes Largesse, Esuna, Protect, Swiftcast, Lucid... other healer takes Largesse, Swiftcast, Lucid, Eye for an Eye(*), Rescue(*)

*swap these 2 out for whatever utility you might need for a boss

Problem? Also, Esuna is only needed for Doom mechanics. Almost every dot on it's own in this game is outhealable and even preferable to do so because the GCD on Esuna and a Cure is the same minus latency of spell actions. And in cases where it's not outhealable it's most likely still not worth the Role Action swap and giving up what you lose in what you're swapping out of for 3-5 globals a dungeon. Even in cases where you must dispel a slow or a detrimental effect you have to take into consideration the amount of globals per dungeon you're actually executing using that ability versus the use you'd get out of other actions which in most situations is not worth it.

No idea what kind of pro groups you're running with, but in general I prepare for the worst case scenario that can happen, and some players occasionally screw up worse than I can even possibly expect.

Of course, I wouldn't mind if it was rolled into the base skills again, but I wouldn't dare go into a fight where I might need Esuna or Rescue regardless of how easy it is to avoid stuff. People tend to get hit anyway, regardless of whether it be because they're new, drunk or lagging.

Essentially I hotswap Esuna for every fight for any boss that does any status effect worth mentioning nowdays and use Cleric Stance for stuff that don't 'ever' use status effects.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

Most status detriment in the game can't be removed and the ones that can are usually avoidable or can be removed by doing the mechanic properly. You don't need esuna.

---

Wrong. There are plenty of status affects that are removeable that are not avoidable, by not having esuna you are just making it intentionally harder on yourself and your group. This also is not a healthy mindset for newer healers or people looking to get into healing with no experience. Please stop spewing this garbage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

Most status detriment in the game can't be removed and the ones that can are usually avoidable or can be removed by doing the mechanic properly. You don't need esuna.

---

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/m...un_scaith1.jpg

{Oops!}

Add protect to that list and you have my vote. Neither of these skills are optional. I'm sick of putting protect on and off my hotbar at the start of every fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CharlieBlake

the scorpion should be stunned before that move goes off, a caster dps can remove the dot.... there's a lot of other ways to deal with it than esuna.

---

Casters have to cleanse dots but healers don't, wasting DPS? Double standards. Erase is also a long cooldown, and that dot will most likely be reapplied long before that. On top of that, Erase does nothing for non-dots, like the -90% damage down from Titan gaol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scox

Add protect to that list and you have my vote. Neither of these skills are optional. I'm sick of putting protect on and off my hotbar at the start of every fight.

---

To me is begs the question somewhat of why protect even exists in this game. It's never not going to be on in a fight, it's not going to wear off, it's not getting dispelled or anything. It's one thing when the long duration buffs in a game are unique to the class casting them and provide different benefits, but here it's the same spell across all healers and is entirely fire and forget forever at the start of an instance.

A better idea would just be disallowing healers who can't accept that healing means having to heal avoidable mechanics.

You're not good at the game nor healing if you can't accept that mistakes can be made.

I'm too lazy sometimes to toss protect back on tbh, I'm like just go that's not gonna make or break a fight or pull in a dungeon, and in 8 man content the main healer always has it anyways.


Like if I can't heal a tank without protect even if he pulls half the dungeon at once I need to retire my healer badge

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scox

Add protect to that list and you have my vote. Neither of these skills are optional. I'm sick of putting protect on and off my hotbar at the start of every fight.

---

Lol... just lol... people please, read previous posts if you dare add something to that topic.
We are page 6 of this topic, and page 5, someone posted the perfect macro for it :

/macrolock
/macroicon Protect
/aaction Esuna off
/aaction Protect on
/ac Swiftcast <wait.1>
/ac Protect <wait.1>
/aaction Protect off
/aaction Esuna on

(you can just erase the swiftcast line if you don't want to land it).

Please don't be too lazy to do : "escape" (to open the main menu) / select "Macro" / select an empty slot / copy-past that macro / Click and drag the icon to the slot you want for using protect.

It actually is like making your class able to get 6 action roles, like BRD and MCH with the skill to run faster out of fight.

Just in case, here is some explanations if you're not familiar with macros
[ /macrolock] is to be sure the macro goes until the end in case you use another one before that one is over
[ /macroicon "skill name"] is just to give your macro the icon of the skill you want
[ /aaction "skill name"] is to select or deselect an action role skill
[ /ac "skill name" <wait.X> ] is to use the skill and tell the macro to wait X seconds before using the next one (because you have to set a timer to use consecutive skills by clicking one time), and it can't be lower than 1sec

Taking protect off your bar is fine as long as your partner healer keeps it, but it's a pain when someone dies somewhere and you can't get protect back on them. It does have an effect, and if you've ever seen someone survive by a sliver of life (and you should have by this point), that's likely protect in action.

It's already a pain keeping resurrected DPS alive in Susano EX party finders; it doesn't need to be made harder. Similarly swapping Esuna out when you don't need it is fine, but be sure you have it when you need it or there is no excuse. If you want to optimize then make sure you're responsible enough for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyperia

Adding an extra slot to the Role selection would go a long way to allowing for better customization. Having to cast protect, remove it and then continue just irritates groups due to the wait on the swap.

---

That 3 second wait! Oh no!

In other news:
I don't know why you guys keep throwing around the word "Mandatory" like you aren't a good healer if you don't have Protect or Esuna. In 8-man content there are two healers. There's no reason both need Protect or Esuna. You don't even need Esuna in a ton of instances. People complaining that you have to "take an action off/on" to cater to content obviously don't get the idea of Action Roles. They allow you to customize your tool kit to suit the content - or don't if you're lazy. Just keep Esuna 100% of the time and pretend it's "mandatory" but don't keep coming here whining that 1/5 actions is a must keep when it absolutely is situational.

It sounds like you want 5/5 to be "best" all the time so you don't have to think about it, but at the same time if it is "best" to have Esuna, it shouldn't be "optional" because it's "mandatory."

You can just use a protect-exchange macro button since there are commands like "/aaction Protect Off, /aaction Rescue on" to swap actions. I use it to get rescue in after casting protect in extreme trials. My other raid healers usually carry it, so it's kind of redundant.

Esuna is dependent on instance, some instances it's just a minor inconvenience rather than necessary. Like some early level dungeons it's easier to just let HoTs or Adlo heal a poison. But ones that are dependent on living, like A3S or Sastasha HM of course that's another swap you can use instead of "losing" a 5th skill that is more desirable.

I'm sure someone scratched their head on why i cast protect again after a pull. It's just so I get Esuna for this one fight, and I can hit another protect button to get the other skill like E4E or Rescue back. As long as the other skill isn't on cooldown.

The whole Role Action thing wasn't as well thought out as I think SE thought. If it was as we thought that once you are that role and get access to those skills once you reach that level then yeah the Role System would be great... but the fact we have to choose is what makes it fall short, and for that fact that some of the skills are mostly useless, and others are "required" no matter what. As a SCH I can't use Eye for an Eye because the other skills i have on my bar are more important. I can understand making mistakes, but please SE admit that these changes aren't as good as you want us to believe. The Role System isn't as strong as it could of been and some jobs now are mind numbingly simple that its insulting. Please don't make us wait until 5.0 for a fix, if we get that far.

E4E was nerfed for Scholar because it has the cross-class cooldown now. Kind of bites considering how much of SCH kit was already neutered. I do have a Protect-E4E swap button, mainly for dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shai

People complaining that you have to "take an action off/on" to cater to content obviously don't get the idea of Action Roles. They allow you to customize your tool kit to suit the content - or don't if you're lazy.

---

Designing content for people to use external guides or memorise when they do/don't need Esuna is clunky as heck. And while swapping abilities with keyboard/mouse is a trivial split-second thing, it's a pain on a controller (even using a macro is a pain on some keybind-starved jobs). They shouldn't be implementing content which forces people to fiddle around in the exact same update which specifically removed the need for doing so with low level sync and tiers of attack spells. I have no problem with other situational flavour abilities, like basically every DPS role skill and Rescue; if I want to swap things like that out to suit my mood it doesn't feel like I'm crippling my group noticeably the way I would be by screwing up with my cleanse.

since you can't swap a role ability that is on cooldown, I use a macro to toggle between protect and esuna (neither of which has a cooldown).
Raids don't usually need esuna, and I can cast protect before combat. As for paralysis, there are potions for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tashim

As for paralysis, there are potions for that.

---

Thank you so much to remind it to people :D

So many people talk about plenty of things without taking potions in count (except dps parsers of course...). I wish crafted potions where something that matter more, and it seems it's a bit more the case in this version.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fannah

Thank you so much to remind it to people :D

So many people talk about plenty of things without taking potions in count (except dps parsers of course...). I wish crafted potions where something that matter more, and it seems it's a bit more the case in this version.

---

4 minute cooldown. Saying DPS taking the role skill to remove DoTs is bad because of it's 2 minute CD, yet you'll advocate a 4 minute CD that directly competes with increasing damage output?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NolLacnala

Casters have to cleanse dots but healers don't, wasting DPS? Double standards.

---

Well, I mean, healers are expected to dps at all times, so the double standards have been here since 2.x. And... trust me when I say your Esuna is neither wanted or desired. Do more damage instead of wasting a GCD on a worthless action. Comparing an oGCD to a GCD results a net gain every time, unless you're trying to say a DPS using Feint or Invig is a DPS loss? :'3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riyshn

4 minute cooldown. Saying DPS taking the role skill to remove DoTs is bad because of it's 2 minute CD, yet you'll advocate a 4 minute CD that directly competes with increasing damage output?

---

??? (what is that 4 minute cooldown you talk about? the buffing stats potions? (5min in NQ / 4m30 in HQ)).

I don't know what happened in your mind, but I never ever said that "DPS taking the role skill to remove DoTs would be bad" in any way. How can you make such thing up with what you quote of me? Maybe you're confused with another player?

For the buffing stat potion, I meant people showing their rotation on a dummy on youtube usually use such potions in their rotation to optimize it. I'm not saying in any way it would significantly change the whole number. Don't exagerate what I said. I mean people don't use potions overall except those ones.

So I was only talking about potions removing debuffs :
Potions removing Poison/Silence/Blind have a CD of 1m NQ and 54sec HQ.
Potions removing Sleep/Paralysis/Stone have a CD of 1m30 NQ and 1m21 HQ.
Did you speak about those potions when you talked about 2min CD? I guess not, you were certainly talking about Erase from Magic DPS, but it has a CD of 90sec, not 120sec, and I never even talked about it as good or bad.

Now imagine a boss use an effect on every players, it will save a lot of GCD (according to the number of players). Especially if it's a Paralysis, a Sleep, or a Stone effect. Not only the healer will gain GCD but also the others.

When I play tank, I use Health potions to temporize and give less stress to the healer (I use it like a CD when needed, like I would use Second Wind).

Quote:

---

As for paralysis, there are potions for that.

---

Out from hundreds time i party, i almost never see anyone use potion to heal their debuff, either they wait to clear by itself, or they wait for me to clear it.

for me its a must because its not just important, its also because i dont know what else cross class skill i Need to put, i use esuna, protection, that the self mp regen, that increase healing skill, and swiftcast thats it,the rest didnt look appealing for me (swap rescue sometimes, for fun and laugh)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Well, I mean, healers are expected to dps at all times, so the double standards have been here since 2.x. And... trust me when I say your Esuna is neither wanted or desired. Do more damage instead of wasting a GCD on a worthless action. Comparing an oGCD to a GCD results a net gain every time, unless you're trying to say a DPS using Feint or Invig is a DPS loss? :'3

---

It's people like you that cause the boss in Omega 4 to cast Doom at the start of the fight and then never again just to make sure someone has the skill.

DPS dot cleanse (Erase) is a fairly garbage skill. It cannot be used on self, removes a single DoT (and only a DoT), and has a full 90 second cooldown. It is borderline worthless, and I wouldn't expect anyone to actually use it outside of novelty bonus or in a specific planned strat.

As a healer prepare Esuna when you need it, and don't forget it or that's on you. If you don't want it for fights where it's unnecessary then fine, but being able to cleanse debuffs when someone gets hit with something (and they will) is almost always a benefit. Healer DPS is bonus and being constantly active is a respectable way of play, but you often get more out of your GCD removing the slow on the DPS than you do spamming your own direct damage.

Quote:

---

Well, I mean, healers are expected to dps at all times

---

Iam sorry what? We are called healer for a reason, dps is optional at best, not a must. you might as well saying RDM are expected to heal at all times then.

Quote:

---

Do more damage instead of wasting a GCD on a worthless action.

---

I agree with this but only on normal or previous (before SB) run, right now therre still some people who still new and learning the SB dungeon and raid, so better safe than sorry.

And this is me personally but, under any situation i will not do dps except instant dot spell when doing recent raid (deltascape for example), everyone Hp get mow down every seconds and i dont want to blunder myself just because i want to contribute a measly 3-4K damage every 5 or so seconds with a cost of my 2 healing spell or 1 big heal or an aoe heal, and not counting healer mana management is not as loose as pre 4.0 now (at least for me ast)

Let the dps do their thing and we healer do our thing in tight situation, its fine slipping a dps or two every 10 seconds but "to dps at all times"? Go play dps then. In fact play RDM, its definitely suit your "i want to dps and heal at all times" thinking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

DPS dot cleanse (Erase) is a fairly garbage skill.

---

Erase is an oGCD that can be weaved in between gcds at no cost to your dps. Now, I wonder just who has an insta cast... oh, right, RDM has a constant and consistent use for oGCD skills like this, and I've actually gotten a SMIDGE more mileage out of Erase than I have off my Esuna counterpart, despite playing both Scholar and WHM since 2.X. Esuna has no real value unless the devs try to force it like in O4, and guess what? I'm still not gonna take it because I bet my cohealer will have it, so I'll take something more useful. Like, hey, Cleric.

I do find it funny how you think I enforce it, seeing as it was a standard set by the community way back. Pragmatically speaking, Esuna is worthless on anything that isn't Doom. I'm not wasting MP that would be better spent dpsing healing someone that keeps standing in the fire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

Snip

---

Okay so you've given the perfect example as to why it should be removed from the cross role abilities. If a skill is mandatory to have as a cross role ability, then why exactly is it not a permanent ability? The WHOLE point of role abilities are because they're supposed to be optional. When you decide to not take Esuna and fights throw doom at you, of course you'll then take it after people die. But there is absolutely no reason that an optional ability to take should cost instant deaths of others. It becomes an absolutely 100% must take, which is the exact opposite of what they said they're trying to achieve with role abilities.

its not even just a matter of wether esuna is needed or not. in some fights it is, and in some it isnt, but it remains that having esuna in a cross role slot is bad for personal optimization (and if youre in a static, either you or your cohealer will have to sacrifice something for that thing if a fight calls for it). if you have esuna to play it safe, youre already sacrificing something useful like largesse or cleric stance or even protect which you wont be able to reapply if someone dies and you res them. if you dont have esuna because you want to maximize your dps and trust that ppl will handle mechs properly, you jeopardize some people in the party.


if you ask me, disable shouldve been cross role instead. that way every healer wouldve had some form of reliable mitigation (and frankly, healers are the most apt for the job. ive yet to see dps that actually know when to use feint or addle), but instead we have to end up picking 2 between esuna, largesse, cleric stance, e4e or rescue. (and if you care about your personal healer dps, youre really only picking 1 between esuna, largesse, e4e and rescue, which is bs)

and while its true that you can be macroing to swap between abilities, thats honestly incredibly annoying. it may not be much but having to change your cross roles at the beginning of every single duty is somehting nobody else even has to consider doing

You have to remember other jobs have some sort of DoT or status removal. Warriors have Shake it Off as a base skill for themselves, Bard has Paeon, casters can take Erase for several situations for other players. There is more damage mitigation available from tanks and caster DPS now with Reprisal available on all tanks, and Addle (new virus) with all caster DPS.

Ideally both healers don't need protect in a static. You gotta go back to 2.0 days when it was always the WHM that always used proshell protect over the ghetto SCH version. Plus it's a free cast now. This system basically affords more options, its easy to swap with macro buttons, and they gave us new skills that are great for some fights like rescue.

The reality is there isn't a "set" 5 you have to take. But of course some skills are too good not to have on any healer like Swiftcast, Lucid, and Largesse.

It's been said before but it needs to be stressed again. Erase, the caster dot removal, is on a 2 min cool down and it removes one dot. I keep it on my bar of course but it's not exactly reliable dot removal.

This is a cross role slot discussion, not whether Esuna is valuable or not. No one is debating that, because apparently some people don't know there are more DoT removal options aside from the healers only.

It's possible we could have an A3S Throttle again where there has to be one healer on-the-ball with status removal (Omega v4 or other cross roles), or if they really want to turn-up the volume again back in Second Coil T7S with four-venomous tails need to be removed or death, where it's a shared responsibility.