Request: Limiting the number of blatant Game of Thrones references in future?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

We use "hell" as an exclamation all the time in English. If there are seven hells in their world, then they probably aren't going to use "hell" singularly. They'll say "hells" or "(number of) hells" most likely, the same way they refer to the Twelve.

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Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

Koji-Fox literally said in a panel at Fanfest that he invented "Seven Hells" SPECIFICALLY as a swear because it sounded better than the original "Six Hells" they had designed by the lore team, all because he wanted Stahlmann/Rostnstahl to use it. It had nothing to do with being a reference to ASOIAF or GoT.

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I can readily concede on that one, but you both seem to be ignoring the second part of my post.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I honestly am more bothered by the liberties taken by the localization team overall.

There are several parts of the dialogue in which the Japanese dialogue and the English text say entirely different things. In Stormblood there are moments in which a line is literally cut in half (in meaning, not just in length) in the English dialogue compared to the Japanese.

It's not Sega-levels of bad, but it is pretty disconcerting is you understand some Japanese.

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While the localization team isn't perfect, they do a fine job. There are very few circumstances where the meaning conveyed in Japanese is significantly changed in the English version. And there are no circumstances where important information in the Japanese is not conveyed in the English. They sometimes shift some information to a previous or following sentence (or two later), but they never outright skip important info.

I personally enjoy them, and get excited when I come across them in game.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

? The concept of seven hells is thousands of years old.

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It's also part of the XIV universe, mirroring the Seven Heavens.

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Originally Posted by missybee

I can readily concede on that one, but you both seem to be ignoring the second part of my post.

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The fact there's a lot of GoT references in the game? Yeah, there are. There's a lot of pop culture references in the game in general though.

Game of Thrones is probably the most well known current fantasy property out there though, so of course you're going to see them sprinkled throughout the game.

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Originally Posted by missybee

I can readily concede on that one, but you both seem to be ignoring the second part of my post.

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you mean

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Originally Posted by missybee

Even if you strike that one off the list, there is a veritable cornucopia of references to chose from.

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Oh gods above you said "strike that one off the list", theres so many references in that i see what you did there. :p


its a non statement, just because there ARE references doesn't mean they reference something. sometimes things sound cool to say, plus most of the phrases are actual phrases, like Anyroad and words are air for example.

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Originally Posted by missybee

I can readily concede on that one, but you both seem to be ignoring the second part of my post.

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I wasn't intentionally ignoring the rest of the post, I was merely focusing on that one as I know there's background well before GoT for it. There are others that probably come from things well before GoT, I'm sure.

I won't deny there are a lot of GoT references (I don't even know GoT and I could spot a couple), but there are references to tons of things.

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Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

Snip!

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and

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Snipperoo!

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There are a plethora of pop culture references in the game, and when I can employ the use of IUnderstoodThatReference.gif, it makes me happy! I just agree with OP in that the Song of Ice and Fire references in particular feel a little heavy-handed. It does make sense though, because as you said, GOT is a very pervasive and popular fantasy franchise.

Personally, I don't hate it and it really isn't a big deal - it just gets to feeling a little overmuch for me.

With regard to this statement, however:

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

just because there ARE references doesn't mean they reference something

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I got nothing.

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Originally Posted by missybee

I got nothing.

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see if i say something like Danger Danger for an alarm, that dosnt mean i am going DANGER DANGER WILL ROBINSON. or making an intentional referance to that phrase

thats what i am getting at :/

I agree that in isolation none of these references are overwhelming. And the odd 'little birds' wouldn't bother me in the slightest; I like the phrase on its own, and it doesn't stick out when it's just once or twice in the whole game (however, I counted three instances of the line in one day of questing recently, which does rather stand out when there are other references to the series everywhere else yet seldom is there a single bird, actual or metaphorical, in sight). But as has been said, why not 'Final Fantasy' it up a little or at least keep the nudges to non-story elements where they can be appreciated by those who know and ignored by those who are trying to take the game's world-building moderately seriously?

I have a friend who doesn't know about GoT and the in-jokes like the RDM one don't sound clever at all to her, just bewildering. Obviously character names and most popularised period linguistic tics go completely over her head, but I know that our localisation team is clever enough to be able to write their own excellent dialogue without inserting ASoIaF into every possible piece of content just because they love it so darn much.

Anyway, I've taken the quest now so it's not like I'm going to keep crying over it, just wanted to get it off my chest. Glad that at least some of you enjoy it ;p

I dont know GOT really, but what are these "little bird" references specifically?

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Originally Posted by Hitsuzen

The localisation team is out of control. There is a side quest called amber alert about child kidnap. So tasteless. That was a real tragedy there's a reason we have amber alerts here in the US.

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Dark humor exists.

More at 11

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Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

Localization is not translation. Localization is taking text and making it fit and understandable for a western audience. Japanese and English operate as very different languages. English relies more on subtlety and things being inferred, whereas Japanese makes more sense to just spell everything out. If you do that in English, it becomes patronizing and almost condescending to the person reading the text. So honestly, it makes more sense for the English text to read as fairly different from the original Japanese text because of how they want to present the information to the playerbase.

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I'm intimately aware of that all. It's always funny how people ready to defend poor localization always seem to assume that whoever they're discussing with doesn't know what localization entails.

The point is that there are plenty of cases in which relevant information is omitted or relationships between characters are misrepresented.

A very clear example is the fact that Estinien calls the warrior of light "aibou" in Japanese, meaning partner. There are several ways to localize this, but in English it's simply lost, and it's a big loss, as it shows how the cold and detached Estinien has been touched by the warrior of light and opened up to trust him/her.

This kind of conceptual loss is simply an example of bad localization. There are no two ways about it.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I'm intimately aware of that all. It's always funny how people ready to defend poor localization always seem to assume that whoever they're discussing with doesn't know what localization entails.

The point is that there are plenty of cases in which relevant information is omitted or relationships between characters are misrepresented.

A very clear example is the fact that Estinien calls the warrior of light "aibou" in Japanese, meaning partner. There are several ways to localize this, but in English it's simply lost, and it's a big loss, as it shows how the cold and detached Estinien has been touched by the warrior of light and opened up to trust him/her.

This kind of conceptual loss is simply an example of bad localization.

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Not necessarily. Changing relationships to better fit a different culture's tastes is also part of localization. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it's bad localization.

Note that I don't like it either.

In the case of Estinien, we can see that he has opened up to us. We don't need him to express it so obviously.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Not necessarily. Changing relationships to better fit a different culture's tastes is also part of localization. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it's bad localization.

Note that I don't like it either.

In the case of Estinien, we can see that he has opened up to us. We don't need him to express it so obviously.

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We also don't have a focus on the terms we use to call people to have a deeper meaning like they sometimes do in Japan. We may use "bro" or "pal" or maybe something a little more elegant, but it doesn't have a deep meaning here. In japan were things like honorifics are a thing, the way you address or refer to someone means a lot more than it does here.

if he started using the word partner or friend, or whatever a lot, it would look weird to a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Not necessarily. Changing relationships to better fit a different culture's tastes is also part of localization. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it's bad localization.

Note that I don't like it either.

In the case of Estinien, we can see that he has opened up to us. We don't need him to express it so obviously.

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Oh yes. It definitely means that it's bad localization. For such a reclusive person to openly expresses the fact that he sees you as a partner is a *big* part of that revelation. Changing openly vocalizing such an important change to simply implying it means effectively changing the character. It has absolutely zero to do with fitting the target culture's tastes.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Oh yes. It definitely means that it's bad localization. For such a reclusive person to openly expresses the fact that he sees you as a partner is a *big* part of that revelation. Changing openly vocalizing such an important change to simply implying it means effectively changing the character. It has absolutely zero to do with fitting the target culture's tastes.

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Calling me "partner" or anything like it is going to sound really cheesy. This is where culture comes in. We don't do that here.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Calling me "partner" or anything like it is going to sound really cheesy. This is where culture comes in. We don't do that here.

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It sounds cheesy in both cultures. It's supposed to, and it fits Estinien's role and change perfectly. He's not used to be social, so he does so in a slightly awkward way. Japanese do that even less than here, which makes it even more special.

Having worked in localization for six years in the past, I always find it funny how some in that role nowadays try to feed to the masses that theirs is an authorship role, while it should be in service of the author's world view and creativity. What makes it even worse is how certain media outlets are doing their utmost to roll that drum in order to further their own agendas in which different development cultures are flattened to western taste and standards.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

It sounds cheesy in both cultures. It's supposed to, and it fits Estinien's role and change perfectly. He's not used to be social, so he does so in a slightly awkward way. Japanese do that even less than here, which makes it even more special.

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They may do it less in real life, but it's a frequent trope in their media. It's not anywhere in our media.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

They may do it less in real life, but it's a frequent trope in their media. It's not anywhere in our media.

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You must not have consumed much media, if you think so.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You must not have consumed much media, if you think so.

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Can you kindly provide some examples then? Comedy won't count.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Can you kindly provide some examples then? Comedy won't count.

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decades of police dramas.

And keep in mind that "partner" isn't the only way that could be used to convey the message. That's just the literal translation.

The issue is that no effort has been made to actually convey the message, which has been simply omitted. That is bad localization.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

decades of police dramas.

And keep in mind that "partner" isn't the only way that could be used to convey the message. That's just the literal translation.

The issue is that no effort has been made to actually convey the message, which has been simply omitted. That is bad localization.

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I'm failing to think of a single case in police dramas where someone called their partner anything similar to partner.

Tell me, how could they have conveyed the message then? I feel that them showing us that he has opened up to us fits his character much better than him telling us that he has.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I'm failing to think of a single case in police dramas where someone called their partner anything similar to partner.

Tell me, how could they have conveyed the message then?

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http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/partner

Those are just basic examples. Even a super-simple "My friend" while not perfect would have conveyed the concept better than completely omitting it.

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I feel that them showing us that he has opened up to us fits his character much better than him telling us that he has.

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That's not what localization is. Reasoning like this implies "I know better than the original author what is good for this character." This is authoriship, and a localization employee is not an author.

The fact that a character as reclusive as Estinien comes to the point of actually vocalizing that change makes it much stronger, and very important.

Mind you, many that work in localization will certainly tell you that this is ok or even desirable, and that's because a certain part of that crowd has been trying for years to sell themselves as mini-authors whose creativity should override that of the real authors.

Good localization requires a certain humility, and not all have it.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

And the odd 'little birds' wouldn't bother me in the slightest; I like the phrase on its own, and it doesn't stick out when it's just once or twice in the whole game (however, I counted three instances of the line in one day of questing recently, which does rather stand out when there are other references to the series everywhere else yet seldom is there a single bird, actual or metaphorical, in sight).

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What's being said about a "little bird"? Is it just the "a little bird told me" expression? That's not from GoT. Nor does it have anything to do with actual birds. It's just a commonplace English expression for indicating you know something but are unable or unwilling to identify how you know it. And it's been a common expression since before A Song of Ice and Fire was written.

A book or TV series using a commonplace term or phrase does not make other uses of that phrase a reference to it.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

A book or TV series using a commonplace term or phrase does not make other uses of that phrase a reference to it.

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No; it's not the general English phrase "a little bird told me", it's numerous references (by different characters in FFXIV) to "my little birds", in this case specifically referring to a spymaster's hidden network of trusted informants. Obviously the root is identical, but in the context of all of the other references it's difficult for me to read it and not imagine the characters who say it in the series. I mean, few of the words in ASoIaF are completely made-up. It's the popularisation of certain obscure lines and references which are being relentlessly plumbed by the writers here, and I personally think it would be nice if things were dialled back just a little.

As I said in my first post, if they varied the references more (i.e. using a broader mixture of fantasy series as inspiration) it wouldn't be so jarring.

I don't watch GoT. It's not my speed. So I may have interpreted some of these differently. If it *is* something they are overly focusing on, though, that's a bit annoying because not all their players are fans.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I don't watch GoT. It's not my speed. So I may have interpreted some of these differently. If it *is* something they are overly focusing on, though, that's a bit annoying because not all their players are fans.

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I don't watch it either, but this thread is kinda making me glad that I don't.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Dark humor exists.

More at 11

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This.

I mean, the game has a huge 'mature themes' label for a reason. People accept that by purchasing the product. Complaining about it afterwards, then, is silly.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

This.

I mean, the game has a huge 'mature themes' label for a reason. People accept that by purchasing the product. Complaining about it afterwards, then, is silly.

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It's no more tasteless than the sex/drugs/booze/murder/genocide found in the game. People just want to be upset sometimes.

I don't agree. Let the writers have fun with the story thay they make.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

No; it's not the general English phrase "a little bird told me", it's numerous references (by different characters in FFXIV) to "my little birds", in this case specifically referring to a spymaster's hidden network of trusted informants. Obviously the root is identical, but in the context of all of the other references it's difficult for me to read it and not imagine the characters who say it in the series. I mean, few of the words in ASoIaF are completely made-up. It's the popularisation of certain obscure lines and references which are being relentlessly plumbed by the writers here, and I personally think it would be nice if things were dialled back just a little.

As I said in my first post, if they varied the references more (i.e. using a broader mixture of fantasy series as inspiration) it wouldn't be so jarring.

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How does a spy having a network of carrier birds have to be a SoIF reference in regions based on Edo-era Japan and Turkey?

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Originally Posted by Abriael

That's not what localization is. Reasoning like this implies "I know better than the original author what is good for this character." This is authoriship, and a localization employee is not an author.

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I may be wrong, but I think Koji is both the head of the localization team but also a member of the story/authors team, so he's perfectly in his right to go authorship on FF14. Actually, I think he's in the best place to determinate how SE wants to convey the lore to both english speaking and japanese speaking populations and I'd bet he's doing it with the full agreement of Yoshida and the rest of the story team.

I got a pretty good smile out of the red mage quest. Pop culture references have been around since day one, and while some of them have made me facepalm a little, I feel like that's the point. I think they're fun.

Also, the main story for Stormblood is ABSOLUTELY OVERFLOWING with Hamilton references, so it's definitely not just Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire.

I don't know/care about GoT.

But I will say that a lot of these things you think are GoT references existed well outside/before GoT.

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Originally Posted by KerenRhys

I may be wrong, but I think Koji is both the head of the localization team but also a member of the story/authors team, so he's perfectly in his right to go authorship on FF14. Actually, I think he's in the best place to determinate how SE wants to convey the lore to both english speaking and japanese speaking populations and I'd bet he's doing it with the full agreement of Yoshida and the rest of the story team.

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Something like that - he's one of the two listed as "World Lore Creators" in the opening credits for Heavensward, and I think by this point we all (should) know they pretty much work in house with the devs and scenario writers.

Chances are they all trust the localization team and ultimately are okay with any changes made, which I'll believe over someone from the outside who ultimately bases their "it's bad" argument on it likely just being not how they would have handled it.

People will always find something to complain about....

^This. No matter what SE does it's always wrong. (And for the record I hate GoT, but I don't think the game is 'drowning' in GoT references).

And before you pass judgement, SE has used an overload of pop culture references in past FF games as well, to the point some FF game stories and concepts could be considered a past work given a FF spin.

FFXI's opening movie for instance was pretty much an expy of the Battle of Helm's Deep from Lord of the Rings ~ The Two Towers right down to the orcs (only without a happy ending), FFXII's story could be considered an imitation Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope in Ivalice with chocobos, and FF Tactics was virtually the real-world historical Hundred Years' War and the War of the Roses again transplanted into Ivalice. SE draws from the same wellspring of real world cultural memes, stories and history that George R.R. Martin did as well, meaning he did not invent those terms but simply reused them.

As SE draws from the same sources, they do not even need the presence of recent middlemen for these references, they already exist.

Whatever, I thought the RDM thing was hilarious because it was so blatant.

The references are so few and far between that they honestly don't bother me.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

op snip

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or maybe consider GoT is a very generic rpg inspired fantasy story? like a generic D&D scenario?

as good as it is, how do you know these come from GoT? ppl act like GoT invented this stuff. I've seen phrases like that pre-dating GoT.