An alternative to parsers...

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because he can not endorse people hacking the game since it's against the ToS. Believe me when I say that any time "you" as the official word of god on some project says something that gets misinterpreted, can be the difference of millions of dollars in lawsuits from people getting their account terminated because they thought Yoshi-P was secretly approving something. In customer service, if you can't find it in the ToS, it doesn't exist, the customer is wrong or right entirely by how it is worded.

Much like other MMORPG games, if you use tools on the game, don't ever mention the name of the tools, the websites they are available on, or post any screenshots or video to youtube with such tools running otherwise you're on a one-way trip to ban-town. Have you noticed how many times "temporary ban" shows up in the ban reports?
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...9e80c6b37a8c65

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Really? Twitch streamers would like to have a word with you since parses are clearly visible on their streams, virtually every raid group uploading a kill has it running and there are multiple guides from prominent players explaining exactly how to set it up all up. If SE cared like you seem to believe they do, why hasn't any of this been removed? Regardless, you're proving yourself a hypocrite. As Akan said, why is Yoshida's word law regarding healer DPS but suddenly it doesn't matter now?

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Originally Posted by Erys

Seein both Disembowel and Chaos Thrust on and no phlebotomize is triggering me x'D
How do you even arrive at this situation?

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The same mindset with most people as shit dies before time runs out doesn't matter how long it takes. I actually left right after seing this tho haha. Yeahb same here, it actually triggers me since they all line up together too... oh well haha!

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Really? Twitch streamers who like to have a word with you since parses are clearly visible on their streams, virtually every raid group uploading a kill has it running and there are multiple guides from prominent players explaining exactly how to set it up all up. If SE cared like you seem to believe they do, why hasn't any of this been removed? Regardless, you're proving yourself a hypocrite. As Akan said, why is Yoshida's word law regarding healer DPS but suddenly it doesn't matter now?

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I also take issue with that "much like other MMOs." What other MOMs? WildStar practically begs you to have third party support as well and WoW have tons of third party support.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

Who says the people that cleared the fight weren't carried, or was dead for most of the fight when they did? Who says that the people who haven't cleared it yet never watched a video, and doesn't have a high enough awareness and knowledge of the class where they would die less/equal to the amount of times of someone who has cleared?

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If they die too often, they will be kicked or the group disbands. Simply put, I couldn't care less. If I make a farm party, the intent is to kill the boss as fast as possible. Watching a video isn't going to make you an expert and if I were interested in teaching, I would join or create a learning party. You aren't entitled to a clear because you want one.

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Originally Posted by Erys

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No, just...no. I'd like this game to stay without this kind of performance pressure, thank you very much. There already is something for people who want to do well in this game, it's called Savage and Extreme.

And a mount? Are you serious? Yeah, I can already hear people complain about that. Not happening.

I myself strive to always do my best and apologize when my performance on a certain day is subpar and hurts the group. But this system would sap the fun right out of the game for me and I daresay a lot of players.

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Originally Posted by Sinrai

No, just...no. I'd like this game to stay without this kind of performance pressure, thank you very much. There already is something for people who want to do well in this game, it's called Savage and Extreme.

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Yeah sure, but this is in normal mode, can you please take a min to explain why this happened? http://i.imgur.com/iv1vXFe.png

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Originally Posted by Sinrai

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Performance pressure? When everything you get is only extra?
Only you get to see it and only you get to pressure yourself if you want to get extra rewards xD
It's like saying you are pressured to do savage. It's an extra, you either do it or not. Will encourage people who want to take advantage of it, whoever doesn't give a fuck won't give a fuck xD

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Originally Posted by Chrallmal

However, group accessible parser's seems like a breeding ground for elitism.

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How exactly?

I mean sure, a parser can be used to identify and kick members with low DPS from groups. But in what kind of situations do you imagine this would happen? I can imagine this happening in extreme primals and Savage raids where certain level of DPS is required to (comfortably) beat the fight. In these situations I think it's ok to expect all party members to carry their weight by contributing their equal share of DPS, and if they can't do that, they can be removed from party (and then they can proceed to practice more and trying the fight again when they're able to play their part in that particular fight). But I really can't imagine this happening in casual content like 4 person dungeons or 24 person raids. Sure, someone may get kicked if they're ridiculously underperforming (which I guess is also justified), but I'm sure everyone who is performing around or not-too-far-below average will be just fine. Some people might try to require ridiculous amounts of DPS for their party finder groups, but I doubt they'll have easy time filling those (and, in the end, most people joining those aren't likely to fill the requirements in the first place), and most people are likely to settle for "good enough to comfortably beat the fight" DPS.

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Originally Posted by Erys

Performance pressure? When everything you get is only extra?
Only you get to see it and only you get to pressure yourself if you want to get extra rewards xD
It's like saying you are pressured to do savage. It's an extra, you either do it or not. Will encourage people who want to take advantage of it, whoever doesn't give a fuck won't give a fuck xD

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Tbh I like your idea a lot. Maybe just cuz I effing love Devil May Cry.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If they die too often, they will be kicked or the group disbands.

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Which is fair... but it doesn't prove the point that "NO BONUS" doesn't have an elitist tone to it.

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Watching a video isn't going to make you an expert

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So... did everyone who ever clear never watch/read a guide? Do you think everyone starts at "blind learning party"? That seems kind of silly especially since in my time in MMOs, "learning parties" are pretty unique to XIV. Also having "no bonus" attached to you doesn't make you an expert either, and having one doesn't make you a complete noob - while alts are rare, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Of course, no one is going to believe that it's "just an alt", so they'll get lumped in the same group regardless... how is that not elitist?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Tbh I like your idea a lot. Maybe just cuz I effing love Devil May Cry.

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I know, it's a bit of cheating. I'm trying to appease my inner devil may cry fan, the people who like glams and mounts (I don't), the casuals to try step up their game little by little with progressive rewards for doing good and cheering up when doing bad, people who don't want to stay in the threadmill for hours, players who don't get coms and the people who want to know how they perform.
In a few more years I will end up like Yoshi, trying to please everyone and having halfbaked solutions x'D

Need the devil may cry stylish system! End with a Jackpot and you know you're doing it right.

Simple idea: Judge DPS by how fast things die? Really hard I know. IDK about you, but after playing for as long as I have, I can EASILY tell if I am playing at or near capacity.

Parsers are a blight in any form and many of these ideas do the same thing, display competency to everyone. While personally I could give half a rip, I ALREADY have trouble getting my friends to stay in this game due to complexity, the last thing I need is people throwing "Oh look your grade sucked!" or "Why don't you have X during the dungeon." You will not change casuals and hardcore players will just use outside parsers.

That said, if we could get a parser that LEGITIMATELY could not be used for ANYTHING other than personal practice, that would be ok (Until people learn to use it to belittle people, which they will).

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

snip.

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As nice as this idea is, what decides the thresholds? DPS can vary wildly depending on mechanics, responsibility, other party members' buffs etc

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Simple idea: Judge DPS by how fast things die? Really hard I know.

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Ok, so then Mr. Smug, how do you judge your DPS when in any group content?

We'll wait...

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Simple idea: Judge DPS by how fast things die?

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While I agree with this there a tidbit. Which is what is a fast run? 10 minutes? 15? 20?
A exceptional player can carry a bad player and make a run last 15 minutes. Said player knows they performed well. But their co-dps might think they are also doing good because it took 15 minutes, which is false, they were "carried".
For this to be a thing completely it's subject to whichever standard you hold in terms of speed and not an universal rotation that yields Xdps.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

Ok, so then Mr. Smug, how do you judge your DPS when in any group content?

We'll wait...

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How fast it dies? Still simple. Because that is all that matters.

On a more nuanced note, as many times as we have done the content, there is a pretty fair estimate a player can make as to how long a boss takes. How else do we quickly judge, hey one of these DPS must suck this is taking to long. Use that knowledge.

In dedicated savage level 8 mans (The only time comparing parser information serves ANY legitimate purpose), someone in your static WILL have a parser and IDK about you, but at least one person posted the info after every single pull.

Once again, I am not against one, but most of these suggestions lead to the same place where people can belittle others using parser info. This is what we should be trying to figure out how to avoid. A personal DPS meter that cannot be shared would be the ideal solution.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Once again, I am not against one, but most of these suggestion lead to the same place where people can belittle others using parser info. This is what we should be trying to figure out how to avoid. A personal DPS meter that cannot be shared would be the ideal solution.

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Harassment is still a reportable offence, parser or not, and us players should actively work against that (by kicking and reporting players who are offensive against others). Solo parsers might help some, but having those will only mean still having unofficial group parsers - and PC players having this advantage over PS4 players. I'm sure many would be ok with having official group parser as an optional feature for premade groups only though. Then those who don't absolutely want to use one would have the option to refuse, and those who wish to use one would be on an equal ground despite their platform.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

How fast it dies? Still simple. Because that is all that matters.

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You still have no personal numerical data.

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On a more nuanced note, as many times as we have done the content, there is a pretty fair estimate a player can make as to how long a boss takes.

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Except each estimation changes because at minimum, you're accounting for 3 other people, and all 3 people are a variable.

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How else do we quickly judge, hey one of these DPS must suck this is taking to long.

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Yeah, except you have no way to find out, and that DPS COULD be you.

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In dedicated savage level 8 mans (The only time comparing parser information serves ANY legitimate purpose)

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So there's no possible way anyone would ever get any helpful info from a parser outside of static savage parties... right then.

There is no motive to not have a personal parser ingame. Only showing your damage.

It's really annoying as a PS4 user to keep asking others about my numbers.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

So... did everyone who ever clear never watch/read a guide? Do you think everyone starts at "blind learning party"? That seems kind of silly especially since in my time in MMOs, "learning parties" are pretty unique to XIV. Also having "no bonus" attached to you doesn't make you an expert either, and having one doesn't make you a complete noob - while alts are rare, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Of course, no one is going to believe that it's "just an alt", so they'll get lumped in the same group regardless... how is that not elitist?

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Because farm is specifically meant for people who have cleared. At this point, they have put in the work and are not obligated to help everyone else. Regardless, it's a moot point since the patch notes allow us to block first timers. No more sneaks allowed.

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/de4...png?1497529462

Nice improvment to the party finder. Yesterday I got 2 sneakers in the A12s farm.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Because farm is specifically meant for people who have cleared. At this point, they have put in the work and are not obligated to help everyone else.

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First, you're not only doing a poor job of refuting the claim of elitism, but you're proving my point. Second, there's no proof anyone who has cleared "put in the work", especially when paying for clears is a thing. All that no bonus proves is that at some point, you were in a party where the end result that the boss died - literally nothing else. Not how well you did, if you died, what mechanics you did right/wrong, if you were in charge of handling any mechanics. Boss died - that's it.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

First, you're not only doing a poor job of refuting the claim of elitism, but you're proving my point. Second, there's no proof anyone who has cleared "put in the work", especially when paying for clears is a thing. All that no bonus proves is that at some point, you were in a party where the end result that the boss died - literally nothing else. Not how well you did, if you died, what mechanics you did right/wrong, if you were in charge of handling any mechanics. Boss died - that's it.

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Nor is their proof they will be able to handle mechanics they may have not fully sense themselves. What you are advocating for is forcing people to "give everyone a chance." If I stipulate this is a farm party, I expect people to not only have knowledge of the fight but have cleared it a few times. If they suck, I replace them. Allowing everyone in defeats the entire point. Like I said, I'm not obligated to help you or anyone else because you don't want to join learning parties. That isn't elitism, it is simply playing the odds. I am far more likely to find decent players for a farm group who have cleared than chancing on those with bonus. If it's an alt, they can send me a tell and I'll see. Otherwise, respect the parameters set by the party leader. If you don't like it, don't join that party.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Yeah sure, but this is in normal mode, can you please take a min to explain why this happened?

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Bad gear, no effort, first time. It happens, especially if that was a public group. But are you seriously complaining about normal mode? That's exactly what I don't want in this game, people being "encouraged" in normal content to play better. Yeah, right. The only thing you're encouraging is elitists feeling justified to push their views on everyone else.

These kinds of things have to be thought through from all angles, since it can have unintended consequences.

Limiting it to higher difficulty content is something I'd be willing to put up with, since you'll have to do well there anyway to succeed. Also, nothing that is mandatory for the main story quest.

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Originally Posted by Taika

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Too idealistic, there's no way it's only going to happen in high-end content.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

What you are advocating for is forcing people to "give everyone a chance."

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Pump the brakes there puddin' pop. I'm not advocating for anything - people can and will do whatever they want, as it is within their rights. My point was, and has always been that if people are worried about elitism being introduced if parsers were no longer against ToS, that it was already alive and well - a point you keep proving post after post.

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Like I said, I'm not obligated to help you or anyone else because you don't want to join learning parties.

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You're implying everyone needs help. Not everyone needs help, and not everyone needs learning parties. The fact that you think so DOES carry an elitist tone. Learning parties are not an intrinsic trait of raiding in MMOs, and other people/games have done just fine without them.

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Originally Posted by Sinrai

..

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Was no first timers and everyone was over 260. How is it elitist saying they can't beat a normal mode and they need to get better? I thought the whole point in a pve based game to beat the content? Or are you just going to sit there and pretend its fine?
I'm not ''complaining'' about the normal mode, you are just proving my point here. You say you don't need a a parser and only what you can come with is ''elitist''. So beating content is being elitist? lol Yet you see a group here wiping at 66% with massive overgear. Try come with a better arguement than elitist.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

Fir

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The word elitist is so over used. Most people who are bonuses doesn't make the effort. I've seen some who actually do but it's rare. But again, I'm there to farm as well and I don't wanna take the risk of a person who might be bad or good, because if hes bad the group will mostlikely just disband. It's how it works, because people wont be put up with it. There is abosluttely NOTHING wrong having no bonus in group, you simply just need to deal with it. Like he/she said, I'm there to farm not to take the risk of a person being bad or not and then give them a clear.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

The word elitist is so over used. Most people who are bonuses doesn't make the effort. I've seen some who actually do but it's rare.

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I agree, but that's a problem that honestly the community has fostered through it's intolerance of things like parses and the "necessity" of learning parties. As buzzwordy as "elitism" is, sometimes you need to use their own nebulous definition as the reason of why it's wrong.

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I'm there to farm as well and I don't wanna take the risk of a person who might be bad or good, because if hes bad the group will mostlikely just disband.

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The solution to that is to not do PUGs, or have the majority of the group be people that you know, because on top of skill, you're also running the risk that people will leave once they get what they wanted... or wipe once because of something that was an honest mistake or lag, etc. - i mean, they have no obligation to stick with your group really. Point being there is an intrinsic risk with PUGs period, and a substantial chunk of risk still remains if you remove bonuses.

Of course you don't NEED learning parties but they sure help. I Just look forward to watching people block first timers from SB content from day one, as I'm sure will happen and will end about as well as it sounds.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

You're implying everyone needs help. Not everyone needs help, and not everyone needs learning parties. The fact that you think so DOES carry an elitist tone. Learning parties are not an intrinsic trait of raiding in MMOs, and other people/games have done just fine without them.

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They do if they haven't seen the mechanics for themselves. If they have, you join a clear party, not farm. It's a rather simple process, really.

Learning party - Players who have yet experience any mechanics from the proposed trial or raid.
Clear party - Player(s) who have seen all or most mechanics, yet haven't got their clear yet.
Farm - Players who know the fight and exact to kill it multiple time for weapons, glamour or a mount.

You later mention PUGs, which has no bearing here since you have created or joined a party that clearly outlines the expectations. You just happen to dislike it. That isn't a elitism.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

And everyone who can't reach a certain level will be shunned.

They should just give us personal parsers. You can only see how you yourself are doing.

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Sounds like skip soar tbh.

https://youtu.be/ARSAs3sjLnI?t=2m48s

DPS 1: Heh heh! I'm glowin'!
Paladin: ....DPS 2. why aren't you glowing?
DPS 2: Uh.. Give me a sec I just need to use-

[Whoever Thatwas has been dismissed from the duty]

While this is a cool idea in theory, it would probably not work super well in practice due to the myriad reasons provided by other posters.

There is really no reason not to include a personal parser at the very least, however. In a game that often employs DPS checks in many fights, it is beneficial to know where you stand, and parsing your numbers can also help you strive to optimize your rotation, etc. Arguments against including something that tracks just your own damage seem woefully uninformed if not willfully ignorant.

To say that you shouldn't care about your DPS in XIV is simply asinine.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They do if they haven't seen the mechanics for themselves.

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I don't care if you refuse to concede the point, the point stands; not every MMO has learning parties, therefore not everyone needs them, therefore, not everyone needs help.

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You later mention PUGs, which has no bearing here since you have created or joined a party that clearly outlines the expectations.

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...those expectations you elude to are the very idea that elitist ideas already are in the game, which you are proving time and time again.

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You just happen to dislike it. That isn't a elitism.

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You seem to have a selective reading problem. Hold on, let me quote it for you...

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

I'm not advocating for anything - people can and will do whatever they want, as it is within their rights.

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To make it easier for you to understand - do whatever you want. It doesn't affect me. That doesn't make your ideology any less elitist.

Good God, no. Give this community a visual cue on who has low DPS?

Personal parsers, period.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

I don't care if you refuse to concede the point, the point stands; not every MMO has learning parties, therefore not everyone needs them, therefore, not everyone needs help.



...those expectations you elude to are the very idea that elitist ideas already are in the game, which you are proving time and time again.



You seem to have a selective reading problem. Hold on, let me quote it for you...

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I have nothing to concede because your definition of elitism... is not elitism. Who cares what other MMOs have or do? All that matters is FFXIV and how it handles content. If you don't need a learning party and feel confident in your ability to down the fight, you join a clear group. That is the sole intent; getting a clear.

Those expectations are how the community divvies content based on skill level. While you will inevitably come across bad players in supposed farm groups, it lowers the odds since you have assurance everyone has seen the mechanics in the actual game.

And no. You merely seem to believe farm parties are made up of elitists because they don't want people who haven't cleared the fight yet in their party. No matter how many times you insist otherwise, that isn't elitism.

I say we ask Square Enix to do what Enmass is doing for Tera, ban all 3rd party tools and put a program in servers that detects and reports it to them! #RipParcers!

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Who cares what other MMOs have or do? All that matters is FFXIV and how it handles content.

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There's fundamentally nothing different from a clear and learning party - both are attempting the same thing.

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Those expectations are how the community divvies content based on skill level.

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Clear = ilvl when it comes to quantifying one's skill. Both are equally flimsy.

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While you will inevitably come across bad players in supposed farm groups, it lowers the odds since you have assurance everyone has seen the mechanics in the actual game.

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Yet still, multitudes fail many "stack here" mechanics.

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AYou merely seem to believe farm parties are made up of elitists because they don't want people who haven't cleared the fight yet in their party.

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All of them? No. Do they noticeably exist? Absolutely.

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No matter how many times you insist otherwise, that isn't elitism.

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No matter how many times you insist other wise, doesn't mean there isn't a degree of elitism.