logical approach to DPS meter ingame

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

I still disagree. The LAST thing this game needs is anyway to increase elitism. A personal DPS meter quickly becomes a "Hey look at my DPS in the last fight" deal.

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People can already do this with the 3rd party DPS meters anyway.

Making it personal only would at least allow us to know how well/poorly we're doing so we can adjust.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

People can already do this with the 3rd party DPS meters anyway.

Making it personal only would at least allow us to know how well/poorly we're doing so we can adjust.

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people can already do this, but DEV are pretending they do not know anyone using it, and suppose no one should be talking about using it in public

making it personal will have prevent what SE trying to safe guard from

if knowing how well/poorly of their own playing, a change to stone, sea, sky (involved boss mechanics) should be enough, as least extreme and savage are the

only place that truly require such indication

The system is fine as it is. DPS parser ain't gonna mean anything when you complete the duty. I'm sure of it.

That said, in a DPS perspective, whenever the damage ain't good enough, and got wiped or enraged, then it's a clear sign to continue training your class! Which in the end, is a lesson by itself without the need of anyone telling. You'll try to optimize, read guides, and ask friends and teammates too! I call elitism legitimate as long as it's proven and is meant as a bragging right and becoming the star of the moment to inspire and teach others to do the same, not a tool to belittle others. This is how I logically approach DPS parsing.

If you insist on using numbers as hard proof, then you can use the parser, but keep it personal.

Considering people already use 3rd party tools for this in most PUG's, adding it to the game itself might get a few new players who are MMO vets, or just plain interested in playing out the various DPS class'. either way its more people playing, or more class' being played. Whats more adding the meter for a good number of players will push them to progress further for the sake of higher numbers thus making runs move even faster. Yes there's a bit of BS that comes with it with elitist looking down for low numbers but the perks out number that vastly. yea i play for fun but any means of adding to my numbers to make life easier is welcome

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

There's also that idol incident in Japan. Yoshi-P was probably really embarrassed about that, and it probably put the nail in the coffin more than anything.

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What was this?

No need for e peen tools, as long as the dps don't die every few seconds, or kill others by ignoring mechanics, its fine. Following mechanics is more important than dps, if you know the mechanics you can deal more dps since your actually alive instead of laying on the floor.

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Originally Posted by Windwalker

No need for e peen tools, as long as the dps don't die every few seconds, or kill others by ignoring mechanics, its fine. Following mechanics is more important than dps, if you know the mechanics you can deal more dps since your actually alive instead of laying on the floor.

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Just curious what you do after you've cleared all the Content you can for the week. Allot of people go back in to try to beat their last fflog. What would you advise these people do if suddenly there wasn't a third party parser? It keeps allot of subbed people busy.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Just curious what you do after you've cleared all the Content you can for the week. Allot of people go back in to try to beat their last fflog. What would you advise these people do if suddenly there wasn't a third party parser? It keeps allot of subbed people busy.

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Simple, i go out, meet friends, work, play other games, do chores around my apartment, level other jobs in the game, no fun playing the same job over and over again. Most subbed people don't care about e peen tools, only no lifers use them to make themselves feel better.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

people can already do this, but DEV are pretending they do not know anyone using it, and suppose no one should be talking about using it in public

making it personal will have prevent what SE trying to safe guard from

if knowing how well/poorly of their own playing, a change to stone, sea, sky (involved boss mechanics) should be enough, as least extreme and savage are the

only place that truly require such indication

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If anything a place without mechanics is the one that least requires performance metrics beyond the remaining timer at clear or HP percentile at failure.

Moreover, even if that were the only place technically "necessary", does the really make access elsewhere any less valuable? It's still a good thing. It is still highly useful information for self-improvement. And the more information the better. An single parse does little compared to checking different parses under different rotational strategies, remembering their differing contexts. Multiple overall parses still do little compared to something like fflogs, which shows the entirety of its dynamics in the context of the events of the fight, and allows you to compare, side-by-side, different strategies and contexts. But anything, even something as simple as a personal average dps over a fight, is still an improvement over nothing.

What is with the shaming of objective proof? With analysis? Why does gaming become so zealously anti-scientific? When has information itself, let alone making it a common resource, become somehow wrongful?

I dont understand why people are against an in game parse.

Common reason I see is to prevent toxicity. News flash it already exists so it why would making an official parse increase that when likely everyone already using one would be the same people to use the official one
Another common reason I see is to prevent harassment. News flash its the internet, use the saving grace called reporting and move on with a blacklist. Reporting people for using parses as harassment wouldn't change, neither would it being a reportable offense change.

Literally nothing would change beyond giving PS4 players access to a tool that arguably many want.

Why is everyone so afraid of information. You're going to find negative people everywhere in life and an MMO is no different. If you think anywhere on the internet is a safe haven, please share your ignorance with me. There are really no tools/incentives for self improvement in playing besides a bad one called hall of the novice which doesn't help people play their jobs better. Something where even a curious player could view and compare, or ignore and continue playing how they want would be a great addition and might even help people feel incentivized to try and play better.

Sounds like your promoting bad behaviour just because it exists on the internet. We don't need a parser, not everyone is an elitist with a stick up their rear. Some actually play the game to relax and have fun. With a parser, every dungeon is a speed run, everyone will look down on new players, no thank you.

I always find it funny when people use the "it's a game people play to have fun" argument to promote poor play. It's like they think good players have fun picking up their slack.

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Originally Posted by Windwalker

We don't need a parser, not everyone is an elitist with a stick up their rear.

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I agree that not everyone is an elitist with a stick up their rear. But we still need a parser.

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Some actually play the game to relax and have fun. With a parser, every dungeon is a speed run, everyone will look down on new players, no thank you.

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I play the game to relax and have fun.
I don't do a speed run in every dungeon.
I don't look down on new players.

I still want a parser.

There's already threads about how dungeons are speed runs all the time right now. How would a parser make this worse?
There's already threads about how elitists look down on new players all the time right now. How would a parser make this worse?

I think we should add a parser, and keep the rules about using such numbers negatively towards others is cause for being reported, warned, suspended and eventually banned.

I don't think it would make anything worse, and it would add a lot of fun.
Just do it in the right way.

Unfortunately, there is no way to report people in duties and people will start to kick dps who don't play the way people want. Everyone is allowed fun, a parser does not make it any more fun and only promotes more negativity and toxicity. Look at World of Warcraft, its one of the most toxic enviroments now.

For the people against it, you do realize that the majority of people who want one, have one already via some 3rd party application. Those who want one but don't have it are probably either to lazy to get it, on PS4, or don't trust running 3rd party things with their game. Adding one in game isn't going to change much as we already have it

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Originally Posted by Windwalker

Unfortunately, there is no way to report people in duties and people will start to kick dps who don't play the way people want. Everyone is allowed fun, a parser does not make it any more fun and only promotes more negativity and toxicity. Look at World of Warcraft, its one of the most toxic environments now.

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WoW has seen broad use of parsers since release. That "now" portion, if you're intending to draw any correlation, is particularly irrelevant.

People already kick those who don't play the way they want. All that changes between whether or not a parser is involved is that guesswork increases or decreases. If someone sees you with your self-buff gone coincidentally when you've determined (due to lower level, less-aligned rotations) that it really is more efficient to simply continue your combo and finish the mob off, they may now kick you for a "failure to make use of your toolkit" which they expect is decreasing your efficiency when it is in fact higher.

Exclusion of parsers protects you only from one player type: those who don't know anything about your class and aren't confident enough to determine confidentally why things are going slower, and by how much, and therefore who is underperforming, AND do not already have a parser. Those who know your class well will kick you when they see clear symptoms of underperformance (chance of judgment error, dependent on fine knowledge of the class('s toolkit, opportunities, and rotation)). Those with a parser will kick you when they see objective and very real underperformance (little chance of judgment error over time, dependent on general knowledge of the class('s damage pacing)).

By excluding parsers you are actually putting more players at risk of unfair kicks than you are protecting them from less knowledgeable but far more precise and accurate judgment.

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Originally Posted by Erys

I think a good approach to a dps meter would be a grading system, like Devil May Cry's Style Meter.
The more PPS you do the more it fills, the more it fills the higher the grade. You set up 1 meter per dungeon pull and boss. Why PPS? Because that way overgearing doesn't give you more rewards, you have to achieve the Potency per second dished, not the damage.
Like dungeons are right now, we have: 2 massive pulls, 1 boss, 2 massive pulls, 1 boss, 2 massive pulls and 1 boss. With some variations with smaller pulls before certain bosses but you get the idea. We would get 1 grading per massive pull and 1 grading per boss, ending the dungeon with 6 pull Ranks and 3 boss ranks. At the end we would get an average and that's our final Rank.

Make it an overlay like the Job Gauges so you can't copypaste your "dps" in the chat and there should be no harassment. Give extra tomestones and System Based Commendations as rewards based on on Rank Achieved; B rank gives you 10 extra tomes and a Silver Commendation, A gives you 25 extra tomes and a Gold Commendation, and S gives you 50 extra tomes and a Platinum Commendation.
Why tomestones? Rewarding efficient play with less grind. Why system commendations? Because most players if a dungeons goes quick will commend the "aoe dps class", meaning that maybe there was a melee that was destroying a smn in aoe situations and they go uncommended because the party assumed the smn was the one doing the awesome aoe damage. Or just tanks and healers, because they are the "most valuable" party members.

Put a mount or something with the new commendation system and there's your incentive for people to get better. This way you've got a personal "DPS" meter, a Ranking towards other players that doesn't depend on other players commending you and extra rewards for doing good, both in the form of a mount/glam and extra tomestones per dungeon run.

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A really good idea!
The game needs this!

I've run into TONS of situations where I'm doing a duty or whatever with people that clearly have no concept of their role and when you try to help them, they get extreme defensive are start screaming elitist oppression even though you were being polite and helpful. And I have to tell you, it gets extremely frustrating to constantly carry people because they don't want to learn how to play the game.

Which leads me to believe that there are a lot of people in this game that just do not want to contribute to their parties. Their idea of "play how I want" means "you pick up my slack", and they want to keep it that way. For those of us that do actually try, that makes the game suck. Which is why I think the parser should be public to the party, (at least for end game duties) so that if you simply don't want to contribute, you can no longer hide behind "playstyle", it's just you being lazy and everyone can see it and vote dismiss you for refusing to play as part of a team.

People have no trouble copying others than paying attention. DPS meter have no effect when they have no clue what their skills are.
Here's a thought. Do job quests and pay -real- attention to those npc people conveniently skipped because 'fetching stuff is boring'.

Having a personal parser that you can reveal to the party at the end wouldn't be so bad, just we would need to adjust the punishment and rules related to the new system that allows this to happen. The system itself isn't flawed, but the people who use it are.

I do not think it will make any difference, those who know how to follow rotations will do fine at their jobs. This mainly goes towards the people who want to see the difference between X stat and Y stat, and weigh the small % for raids.

You'll run into every example. Some who use it for the exact purpose, some who use it to belittle others or to not include others. All it will take though is one bad apple, and that's it.

Personally, I know how to follow a rotation (Just came back, the RDM one tells you how to play..literally!), and before that on my SMN using SSS was enough to let me know I can do my job, though others told me more about my exact numbers when we played.

Problem is, you can't stop people from being jerks about it because in the end they're paying $, and that almost all the time, wins.

It would be really interesting to see the shift in the quality of the player base if parsers were introduced. Would it improve overall or decline?
It would certainly be interesting to see the people who *think* they're dps rockstars have a wake-up call – but would that be worth sacrificing the (mostly fine) status quo of blissful ignorance?
Personally I want one, if only one that shows me what I'm achieving as a dps and if that's an acceptable place to be.

This won't happen. Stop asking.

The rating system someone suggested seems cool though.

There's no need for an actual DPS number. A single icon that shows which player has the highest DPS value is all that is needed.

Without it ASTs cannot use single-target buffs like Balance effectively. If it's on and your tank is outdamaging the DPS you know there's a problem, you don't actually to know how much more damage is being done.

Precise numbers just breed elitism but the current system is nonfunctional.

Also, as for people who talk about parsers already being used ingame, you're forgetting the entire PS4 population of the game, intentionally or otherwise.

https://image.prntscr.com/image/w3mp...R__0mE9iYw.png

I joined the darkside from my ps4. I ended up doing a budget build with the help of my friends. First PC I've physically had to touch the hardware for to install.

Very happy with with all the extras a PC provides such as:

Being able to copy/paste links into a browser. (PS4 can copy links within FFXIV, but won't paste them into the PS4 browser.)
Being able to instantly SS something and upload with lightshot. (Instead of sending an image to yourself via PSN messages, using your phone to save those messages using PSN app, then uploading with IMGUR or other hosting site.)
Easier access to Discord than just your phone. (PS4 can't even run a cross platform Voice app. :C)
Realtime DPS/Access to FFLOGS. Its nice to see DPS and a little horrifying. Before I started using one, I was thinking I should turn it off during the encounter so I wouldn't be tempted to look at it, but honestly it has had 0 negative impact on my performance. You just have so much time each GCD to look over at it.

A friend got me a copy of Windows 10 pro for $35 and I got the rest using a list a friend helped me make. :O <3

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/XkXs2R

Parsers are definitely a slippery slope for SE, but as a PS4 player, I definitely need one. The rating system (like DMC) that the other person mentioned is pretty interesting. Another option that I think SE could implement is a damage/heals/etc table at the end of the fight similar to the one for PvP. It could show death count, damage done, and healing done. And to avoid salt coming from being ranked it could just list it in a fixed order (probably same as your party list), plus have it only appear after the clear. That way it's gonna be more of "hey we cleared and this is how we did" instead of "you're doing horrible that's why we can't clear"

If SE is afraid that parsers will bring more harm then benefits to the community, why not start with a personal parser? This parser can not be shared ingame, so people are not forced to show them to the group. I would love to have SE give non PC users the option to improve their playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Erys

snip ze awesome idea

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First I love the idea, but how could it be done for heal and tanks?
In the case of dps it is simple, highest potency per second while doing mechanics, some potency malus could be applied when a player is hit by a dodgable mechanic. Notably to not have dps tunnel vision just to get their last bit of potency.
On the other hand, what defines a good healer in dungeon? One may say dps but we know Yoshida doesn't really like healer dps but, at the same time, a healer having 1 action per 10sec isn't really a good healer. Potency(heal) means little as a good group would end up with a healer healing less.

Personal non sharable parser should be the only option considered given how dps are now expected to hold back so the don't rip agro off dps stance tanks...
To SAM- your dps sucked, you suck, get better noob!
To PLD- holy shit your dps was awesome!

The solution is everyone just switch to pc hah

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Personal non sharable parser should be the only option considered given how dps are now expected to hold back so the don't rip agro off dps stance tanks...
To SAM- your dps sucked, you suck, get better noob!
To PLD- holy shit your dps was awesome!

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That bit about DPS being expected to hold back really isn’t a thing. Enmity skills are powerful right now, and tank stance dancing isn’t punished the way it was at 4.0 launch. If the tank is losing aggro at a roughly equivalent ilvl while the DPS are using their own enmity management skills properly, the tank has opportunity to improve.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

That bit about DPS being expected to hold back really isn’t a thing. Enmity skills are powerful right now, and tank stance dancing isn’t punished the way it was at 4.0 launch. If the tank is losing aggro at a roughly equivalent ilvl while the DPS are using their own enmity management skills properly, the tank has opportunity to improve.

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See : Tanks letting DPS die thread in the DPS role section...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

See : Tanks letting DPS die thread in the DPS role section...

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My point stands. Good tanks generally do not lose aggro. If a DPS is drastically better geared the tank and/or has a powerful opener with minimal ramp-up, it just becomes more important that they use enmity reduction when they need it.

So no, it’s only necessary to hold back on DPS when the tank is bad or at a much, much lower ilvl.

Disclosure: I hate everything about a Damage Meter, I consider it one of the most destructive things you can do to an MMO after seeing various versions of it introduced over the last 18 years.

However, the best way I can think of implementing one while mitigating the damage caused by it's existence would be to make it non-numerical. Let's assume that there is a 'magic number' that you have to hit to down any particular content. Those 'Test Trials" make it seem this might be a thing. So for any given content, that number is X.

Now we add a small colored globe to the UI. The Globe has Red, Orange, Yellow, Green for colors, like other UI color elements. If your current value is Yellow it means you are doing X damage, if you are orange or red, you are below X, if you are at green, you are above X. So the only consideration is if YOU are in the Green. (or yellow/orange as a non-high damage role for reasons that should be obvious.)
This gives the personal performance in an accurate manner while limiting the amount of E-Preening/Stress associated with a damage meter.

Yes lets give people a better reason to kick players more often or to hold it over their heads they're not the best players in the game.

Why stop there why not just kick casuals from the game and make savage dungeons, savage Primals (step above EX).../s

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Yes lets give people a better reason to kick players more often or to hold it over their heads they're not the best players in the game.

Why stop there why not just kick casuals from the game and make savage dungeons, savage Primals (step above EX).../s

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Are you implying all casuals are bad?

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Are you implying all casuals are bad?

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Nope, not implying anything I was being passive aggressive and sarcastic, meant to reply to someone but meh.

I'm hardly a hardcore myself, I would daresay that I'm more casual than most of the regulars on the forum, i've done all of normal Omega in terms of endgame non 4 man dungeon content if that tells you anything.

People who keep suggesting a DPS meter really underestimate how many people will abuse it. Heck, check PF on the Raids and EX comments just to get an idea the kind of people that will use it to "justify" kicking someone or talking down to them.

Remember "Skip Soar" ? Do you really want to give these people a tool that's ripe for abuse? How about the current meta for endgame, there are people excluding jobs. I get the good intention, but nothing good is going to come of it when given to people who want to abuse it.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

People who keep suggesting a DPS meter really underestimate how many people will abuse it. Heck, check PF on the Raids and EX comments just to get an idea the kind of people that will use it to "justify" kicking someone or talking down to them.

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Parsers have been in the game a long time, and most of the "abuse" isn't even from people using them.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

Remember "Skip Soar" ? Do you really want to give these people a tool that's ripe for abuse? How about the current meta for endgame, there are people excluding jobs. I get the good intention, but nothing good is going to come of it when given to people who want to abuse it.

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The amount of dps required to skip that first soar was doable at ilvl 230. The min ilvl for the instance is 250, yet many groups with 6 dps still couldn't skip. There was even a reddit page devoted to helping people skip soar. It had openers specifically designed to maximize dps on Zurvan for every class, but half the comments there were along the lines of, "stop crying and just learn how to do soar." The irony, of course, being that the people most likely to fail soar were the ones who couldn't do enough dps to skip it.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

People who keep suggesting a DPS meter really underestimate how many people will abuse it. Heck, check PF on the Raids and EX comments just to get an idea the kind of people that will use it to "justify" kicking someone or talking down to them.

Remember "Skip Soar" ? Do you really want to give these people a tool that's ripe for abuse? How about the current meta for endgame, there are people excluding jobs. I get the good intention, but nothing good is going to come of it when given to people who want to abuse it.

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If ppl getting abused for doing bad dps it should be problem for banning them for WEEKS if its ingame dps meter or 3rd party. Its just that SE is to fucking lazy to thinking or change EULA. So yea it should make any difference if its in-build or not, abuse is abuse.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Enough with this safe space bullshit. It isnt fair that I can't see my own DPS on PS4. There's a level of expectation when it comes to savage level raiding. Atleast for that content, there should be a meter.

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There's also a tool in game to test whether you meet that requirement. If you aren't going to use the tools provided, don't complain about the lack of tools.