Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

This debate is ridiculous. Let everyone play like they want.
What is so bad about a dungeon taking some minutes longer? Really?
I understand that it is neded in savage raids an i'm ok with that. But in normal/casual content? Who tf cares??
People should stop looking at others and how they perform (again in casual content). Just enjoy the fucking game! :cool:

Honestly, now that I think about it, maybe it's time for the devs to really increase the amount of damage enemies do to put more pressure on healers in general. Healing is pretty much the only role in the game where casting something every 5-10 seconds is still considered adequately fulfilling your role in most content, whereas a tank doing that will lose aggro on everything quickly, and a DPS doing that will make the run take so much longer and drastically increase the chance of a wipe if there's a DPS check along the way.

But I can already tell that the moment the dev team does that, there's going to be an uproar from the healer community for an entirely different reason... And I doubt said complaints are going to come from the faction that is already accustomed to stance dancing.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Yoshida also thought that the 2.0 warrior was fine, effectively telling people to "git gud" despite the fact warrior was measurably worse than paladin. He signed off on bowmages. He agreed to Diadem. The man is not infallible.

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Question is..would you be saying the same thing if Yoshi said it was in fact mandatory for healers to dps?

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Originally Posted by TorchicEX

I wish I knew how to end it. But this is a forum, so people can bellyache all day because something doesn't agree with them.

Also love the RWBY clip.

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Sadly that will always be the case, I'm just getting to the point that I'm no longer caring about the topic. Also, thank you ♥

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

I guess not much according to you since he is only the Game Director and final decision maker....but whatever right.

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His decisionmaking ends when the game (and it's inherent rules) are released. If he wants the game to be played in a different way, he has to change the game and not the community.

Are you kidding? That's like a fighting game with a character who can spam one attack and mostly insta-win with it and the Producer saying "Well, players are not supposed to do that.".

The game devs have to react with fixes and adjustments to the game to face the way players play and not the other way round.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Question is..would you be saying the same thing if Yoshi said it was in fact mandatory for healers to dps?

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Given his track record of other things, like those I listed, yeah I would say the man is still a mortal being capable of making mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Stone III
Aero IV
Holy
Gravity
Combust II
Malefic III
Lord of Crowns
Shadow Flare
Bio II
Broil II
Bane
Shadow Flare

You could create an entirely new DPS class using all of the 4.0 Healer skills/spells that are not "mandatory." Must feel great to have two hot bars instead of three.

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Whoa, holy overgeneralization batman.

Sure might look like a lot of damage spells healers have when you combine three seperate jobs worth of damage spells together in one list. But it doesn't mean much when most of which are redundant copies of each other. Would TOoootally love to see this new dps class in action. /s ;P

Personally, I don't give a flying rat's arse what my healer does. So long as they keep me and the rest of the group alive, they could be dancing in circles around me or the boss if they wanted.

People always seem to forget, a Healer's function in a group is to Heal. Dpsing is MY job.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Given his track record of other things, like those I listed, yeah I would say the man is still a mortal being capable of making mistakes.

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So he's damned if he do and damned if he don't and this topic will probably go on until the servers shuts down for good..and maybe even after that.

"Healer DPS is not mandatory", said the madman that tunes Savage to be cleared by above minimum ilvl 80-90% dummy rotation performing damage dealers.
Now tell me how healer dps is not mandatory to clear content without waiting for gear, therefore making content's life longer by a gear wall.
Ah yeah, if it wasn't like that you would then complain about the gear wall. Healer dps is a contribution to the team, like tanks optimizing cds/doing dps and dps using support/healing/defensive cds.
*slow clap*

Even if I don't agree with Mr Yoshida latests decisitions, I have respect for the man. That doesn't exempt him from making statements like this that are contradictory with the game's design, which makes it a stupid statement. He's a hard working and respectable developer, but sometimes he just needs to take a step back to take a look at his game and weight what he's going to say in anticipation.

I am going to quote a person from youtube named Sotrubaby when he stated "When you EXPECT a healer to dps, you EXPECT a dps to heal you". That is all that needs to be said!

That's pretty obvious.
Personally, it's rather boring to just heal, but I understand if healers feel too pressured to heal. I felt the same way back in 2.0, especially raiding.

At least they'll be able to DPS with things like Assize and Earthly Star automatically now

I personally don't care about healer DPS in 24 mans or dungeons or any other content for that matter outside of savage raid content. That being said, if you are a healer who wants to do savage raids and not minimizing your over-heals as well as maximizing your DPS (in other words not playing at an optimal level) you shouldn't really be doing savage raids pre-echo then. Sorry.

This is a topic where people really should agree to disagree. Yoshi-P and his team expressed how they felt about the game and its design, the people who started this thread stated their opinions about it and everyone argues with each other for an answer that is different for everyone. There is no one answer for this. If you want to run a party into savage content with healers that DPS, then bring them. People do form Statics for a reason. If you don't mind running with a healer that is a bit more cautious or likes to be more passive, then power to you. But these are all opinions and it seems a lot of people forgot that. Do what you want, not what others tell you. Yoshi-P just wanted to let you all know how he felt, not enforce it on you. Even the original post was saying that to let people know, to spread the word because their views were alike and not everyone sees MrHappy's videos. So give it a rest already.

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Originally Posted by Erys

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Erys, you do know that doing Savage is optional right? It is not needed to complete the story! Like healing....if you want to succeed in a optional content....you must choose to do such content on a elevated gameplay style....not be forced to!

Even when the man himself makes this clear, yet again, people will still argue against it. There is no debate to be had here.

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Originally Posted by Misery1337

I personally don't care about healer DPS in 24 mans or dungeons or any other content for that matter outside of savage raid content. That being said, if you are a healer who wants to do savage raids and not minimizing your over-heals as well as maximizing your DPS (in other words not playing at an optimal level) you shouldn't really be doing savage raids pre-echo then. Sorry.

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Your are 100% correct Misery! As Savage is a optional thing to do and you have a right to play with those that match your playstyle....but those are things you choose to do...not forced to do as some claim in our community!

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Nope. It says "it's ok to do your job."

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Doing your job means working as a team player doing your best. Saying you do not need to dps because it was degined to be optional is a joke, telling people they can get away with 1 APM while the other 2 roles are around 60+ is a joke. Seeing a pure regen healer be outhealed by a DPS shield healer is a joke. Really does anyone with this anti healer DPS movement read my first post of this thread?

If a healer is using a buff move every 30 sec, doing more healing then a pure healer with regens, while being 4th in DPS(higher then 1 tank , 2 dps, limit break (where the limit break did more damage then the pure healer) what does that tell you about healing downtime?

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Originally Posted by TorchicEX

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They'll never give it a rest..Instead of simply agreeing to disagree. It's rather insult, complain, and drag the topic on to eternity. The reality is, people just don't like to accept that they're wrong. I remember another post where the person was simply giving a warning for something relating to the topic. No intention of it meaning to start another war. But sadly, it turned into the same thing. I try to end it, and somehow I'm the bad person lol

I've personally never expected or pushed a healer to DPS as I know it's not their job just like I refuse to Stance Dance as a tank incase i get caught off by a hard hit nobody should be forcing their playstyle on others unless you pay their sub fee and about those few extra minutes a run takes of your time you are playing a MMO which is a huge timesink get over it.

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Originally Posted by TorchicEX

This is a topic where people really should agree to disagree. Yoshi-P and his team expressed how they felt about the game and its design, the people who started this thread stated their opinions about it and everyone argues with each other for an answer that is different for everyone.

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In the end it will come down to either of the same two questions as usual: either "Is your output sufficient?" or "Is your percentage of potential output sufficient?"

Feel free to consider something that you're cost nothing to do as nonetheless optional. Just don't be surprised if you're not taken for optional, progression content as a result. Even if healer DPS is not factored into fight design, the goal of progression will always be to clear as soon as possible, even if that means clearing before the time intended (e.g. what should be possible with a given week's amount of gear).

Since they removed the stance dancing, there no more excuse to not DPS as a healer.

Vote kick army stands up !

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Originally Posted by Erys

"Healer DPS is not mandatory", said the madman that tunes Savage to be cleared by above minimum ilvl 80-90% dummy rotation performing damage dealers.
Now tell me how healer dps is not mandatory to clear content without waiting for gear,therefore making content's life longer by a gear wall.
Ah yeah, if it wasn't like that you would then complain about the gear wall. Healer dps is a contribution to the team, like tanks optimizing cds/doing dps and dps using support/healing/defensive cds.
*slow clap*

Even if I don't agree with Mr Yoshida latests decisitions, I have respect for the man. That doesn't exempt him from making statements like this that are contradictory with the game's design, which makes it a stupid statement. He's a hard working and respectable developer, but sometimes he just needs to take a step back to take a look at his game and weight what he's going to say in anticipation.

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Agreed.

Does he know a nondps healer is played like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBgM...youtu.be&t=557

IS THAT WHAT THE GAME IS INTENDING?

This changes nothing. The vast majority of content does not require full-time healing, and thus the choices are still either jumping around contributing absolutely nothing to the party, overhealing like mad, or DPSing to help shorten the run. Unless Stormblood dramatically increases the amount of incoming damage, this won't change.

Yoshida's words should not be an excuse for healers to be lazy.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

Agreed.

Does he know a nondps healer is played like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBgM...youtu.be&t=557

IS THAT WHAT THE GAME IS INTENDING?

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Yup, if the healer is keeping you alive then they are doing their job. That is factual game design even if you do not like it. As I have stated to everyone, try to get employed at SE and change FF14 for healers to dps as mandatory. Til then....nothing more needs to be said.

I knew this thread would appear the moment I heard that quote.

Honestly, there is very little reason to not dps beyond being stubborn. The UI supports it and Cleric stance isn't a thing. The alternative is to spend most of your time just standing their watching others play.

That said, I totally support any calls to make healing in this game a more engaging and developed gameplay. FF14 is really light on healer mechanics which actually involve healing beyond tankbusters and timed HP drops.

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Originally Posted by seekified

This changes nothing. The vast majority of content does not require full-time healing, and thus the choices are still either jumping around contributing absolutely nothing to the party, overhealing like mad, or DPSing to help shorten the run. Unless Stormblood dramatically increases the amount of incoming damage, this won't change.

Yoshida's words should not be an excuse for healers to be lazy.

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Yet again, this is your opinion on how you think others should play. Neither you or I has a right to tell anyone how to play the game as it was designed to be played. If they are doing their job....thats all that needs to be said!

Yoshi says healers shouldn't be expected to DPS ---> Makes a design choice that'll make people expect healers to DPS more

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Originally Posted by seekified

This changes nothing. The vast majority of content does not require full-time healing, and thus the choices are still either jumping around contributing absolutely nothing to the party, overhealing like mad, or DPSing to help shorten the run. Unless Stormblood dramatically increases the amount of incomingdamage, this won't change.

Yoshida's words should not be an excuse for healers to be lazy.

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No content* there is some times where you need parts or a phase where you can't DPS, and it is a healer's job to learn them (I did)

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Yup, if the healer is keeping you alive then they are doing their job. That is factual game design even if you do not like it. As I have stated to everyone, try to get employed at SE and change FF14 for healers to dps as mandatory. Til then....nothing more needs to be said.

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sorry, I will not accept 1 APM in my parties, healers should not be exempt from putting effort in playing, it is an insult to those that do.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Yet again, this is your opinion on how you think others should play. Neither you or I has a right to tell anyone how to play the game as it was designed to be played. If they are doing their job....thats all that needs to be said!

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Asking people to put effort when they play is not telling people how to play it is asking for teamwork. Stop promoting lazness.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

I am going to quote a person from youtube named Sotrubaby when he stated "When you EXPECT a healer to dps, you EXPECT a dps to heal you". That is all that needs to be said!

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I'm not gonna debate whether healers should dps or not (because as long as you can add any amount of dps some people will do it, no matter what Yoshi or anyone else say). But you should know that a healer I do expect DPS to use their utility (Manaward/wall, Second Wind, available defensive CDs, etc) if it can save me some (G)CDs and I'm sure many people will agree (even healers, who don't want to dps).

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Yet again, this is your opinion on how you think others should play. Neither you or I has a right to tell anyone how to play the game as it was designed to be played. If they are doing their job....thats all that needs to be said!

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Why can't players just say "This is my opinion on what I think it should be done" instead of "You are wrong if you do not do it this way" when it is clearly being told the facts on actual game design? When did someone's opinion automatically become the required consensus of the entire player base when it is stated that Healer DPSing is not a Game Design?

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Originally Posted by Elim

Yoshi says healers shouldn't be expected to DPS ---> Makes a design choice that'll make people expect healers to DPS more

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Yeah that seemed pretty counter intuitive to me. To be honest, if their design is for healers to be mostly healing they should nerf the healing spells so healers actually have to spend more time healing and balance around that. Healing spells in FF14 are kind of insanely OP. Medica 2 would have a cd of attached to it in any other game I have played and probably a third less duration at least. That would also create room for more engaging healer mechanics too.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

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The thing is, in content that is "stressful" everyone works their hardest. Why? To reduce wipes, frustrations, unnecessary deaths, to spend less time on the training mill.
Why in the seven hells if stressful content makes people reduce the chance of stress, the people in casual/to relax content like story mode will do everything in their hand to make it last longer, make other people work harder, increase the chance to wipe due to frustration and spend far more time in said content? Isn't it suposed to be relaxing content?
I want to go in and spam doomspike, but I can't because healers are too lazy to drop a holy or two, the same way a tank won't be able to just abyssal drain or decimate/overpower and use a few cds. There's someone in that party that is effectively being carried. And it's about being respectful of others and their time, as a team you should put your team effort, not leech of the team.

Calling a healer who doesn't dps lazy is just stupid. You have no idea how the other player is handling his/her job. Some healers are just focused on the HP bars and some find dpsing simply stressful. Is a healer who is capable of both better? Sure. But I honestly don't care if I'm gonna spend 3-5min more in a dungeon because of that. I see a healer dpsing as a bonus, not a requirement. As long as the healer keeps everyone alive, then he/she's done the job. If the healer went for the extra mile then all the better.

Comparing healers to lazy dps is just dumb. There's no such thing as a lazy dps, only bad dps. And if a dps is bad, then he/she's not doing his/her job.

Same goes for tanks. We all enjoy a tank who can stance dance and push extra damage. But if someone playing tank just focus on aggro, positioning and mitigation, I won't complain either. The tank job was done.

The only time you can complain about this philosophy is if you're part of a raid imo. In a raid you have formed a group who's expecting teamplay and you can request the best from your members. But keep your high expectations with you when you're dealing with strangers, or play with your friends if you cannot do that.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

They'll never give it a rest..Instead of simply agreeing to disagree. It's rather insult, complain, and drag the topic on to eternity. The reality is, people just don't like to accept that they're wrong. I remember another post where the person was simply giving a warning for something relating to the topic. No intention of it meaning to start another war. But sadly, it turned into the same thing. I try to end it, and somehow I'm the bad person lol

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It's too hard for some people, particularly in the General forum to accept that Yoshi-P did in fact say that, and the changes to the healers reflect that, and yet they still believe they should be healing content with just regen alone and not cure. Yoshi-P clearly believes people should be using Cure I and Cure II as their primary healing tool, and if this meta argument from raiders keeps being brought up every time a change to the game is made, the raiders are going to be in for a shock when they can't faceroll content because they never learned to play the game as the producer believed it would.

They tune all content for the minimum ilevel for a reason, if someone has somehow fudged that ilevel by having a high level PotD weapon and under ileveled armor, then that's a game design oversight. They know players will try anything to clear that content because of wanting to have the first clear on that content, but it's not designed for healers to DPS. That's a bonus if you have the right static team. Trying to get that from PUG's is not going to happen. Players attempting these dungeons for the first time tend to have the most powerful gear that they can get, not the minimum. That slack already exists. The Savage Raid content is hard for a reason.

I'd post a video of exactly how I play regular content, but it takes several hours to upload a usable video and my internet is useless while things upload, and I'm not wanting embarrass other people I party with by dragging them into this silly argument, so that adds another 2 hours of encoding to mask everything that people will be distracted by.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

No content* there is some times where you need parts or a phase where you can't DPS, and it is a healer's job to learn them (I did)



sorry, I will not accept 1 APM in my parties, healers should not be exempt from putting effort in playing, it is an insult to those that do.



Asking people to put effort when they play is not telling people how to play it is asking for teamwork. Stop promoting lazness.

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Then stop promoting your opinion as the required consensus of everyone. YOU ARE WRONG! No matter how you spin it...it does not change that fact!

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Originally Posted by Elim

Yoshi says healers shouldn't be expected to DPS ---> Makes a design choice that'll make people expect healers to DPS more

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This made me giggle.

Do I actually care if healers DPS or not? No, but I don't actually run anything above 24-man. And I'm usually the healer, and I like throwing stones.
I'm also coaching my friend who's leveling a healer how to stance dance. And they're really looking forward to not having to stance dance anymore.

Can't we all just agree that as long as you're doing things with randoms.. just roll with it? Keep to enforcing things in statics/pre-mades.

You will never, ever be able to convince everyone to do it your way (whether that be healing healer only or DPSing healer).
Let 'em know DPS can be fun (and in 4.0, way easier) but if they don't cave.. meh. Just plow through the dungeon and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

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Dude you're saying healers should not DPS, you're the man with the wrong opinion here.
As people said, stop promoting lazyness, we have already too many lazy snowflakes out there

Think people are choosing to use this "in their favor". To me it just sounds like he is saying the design leaves room for no healer DPS, at no time does it read like "healers shouldn't DPS" If you are pushing content, having a healer that can weave in DPS will probably still net faster results/clears, this just means that your healers not pushing DPS doesn't bar you from your eventual/potential clear of said content.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Why can't players just say "This is my opinion on what I think it should be done" instead of "You are wrong if you do not do it this way" when it is clearly being told the facts on actual game design? When did someone's opinion automatically become the required consensus of the entire player base when it is stated that Healer DPSing is not a Game Design?

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Because saying healers never need to DPS because it is optional IS WRONG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBgM...youtu.be&t=557
Because i requires such low effort. It is an insult to everyone putting in effort.
http://i.imgur.com/0b3xsAx.jpg
weird they change the text when I did the quest on an alt recently

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's too hard for some people, particularly in the General forum to accept that Yoshi-P did in fact say that, and the changes to the healers reflect that, and yet they still believe they should be healing content with just regen alone and not cure. Yoshi-P clearly believes people should be using Cure I and Cure II as their primary healing tool, and if this meta argument from raiders keeps being brought up every time a change to the game is made, the raiders are going to be in for a shock when they can't faceroll content because they never learned to play the game as the producer believed it would.

They tune all content for the minimum ilevel for a reason, if someone has somehow fudged that ilevel by having a high level PotD weapon and under ileveled armor, then that's a game design oversight. They know players will try anything to clear that content because of wanting to have the first clear on that content, but it's not designed for healers to DPS. That's a bonus if you have the right static team. Trying to get that from PUG's is not going to happen. Players attempting these dungeons for the first time tend to have the most powerful gear that they can get, not the minimum. That slack already exists. The Savage Raid content is hard for a reason.

I'd post a video of exactly how I play regular content, but it takes several hours to upload a usable video and my internet is useless while things upload, and I'm not wanting embarrass other people I party with by dragging them into this silly argument, so that adds another 2 hours of encoding to mask everything that people will be distracted by.

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It is also too hard to ask you to think and respond to what people say about healers and if they should dps or not, a reply is waiting:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4182033
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4181168

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Dude you're saying healers should not DPS, you're the man with the wrong opinion here.
As people said, stop promoting lazyness, we have already too many lazy snowflakes out there

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YOSHI P STATED AND I QUOTE "I firmly believe that it should not be mandatory(Healers DPSing) and we do not have the expectation for them to dps!" HOW IN THE HECK IS THAT MY OPINION WHEN IT WAS HIS STATEMENT!?!?! That is beyond goofy! Wow!

Just make friends with healers that aren't lazy and run premade groups.
No one can expect that everyone in pugs will play their best.
There will always be lazy people, even if the classes are not "designed" for it.