Alternative solution to glamour log

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Because they are coded differently, being different games, designed to support different platforms. It's pretty amazing that this needs to be explained.

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What I meant is that they keep using the excuse of data transfer and the mount of data it represents. They probably don't use engines older than WoW, so if WoW can do it then they can.

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Originally Posted by Arutan

What I meant is that they keep using the excuse of data transfer and the mount of data it represents. They probably don't use engines older than WoW, so if WoW can do it then they can.

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And what I meant is that you have zero evidence to allege that it's an "excuse" or "false" in any shape or form.

Saying " if WoW can do it then they can" is a gross oversimplification completely blind to the reality of developing a complex game like a MMORPG, even more so on multiple platforms and with different features.

BS excuses, wow does it, runscape does it, a 15 YEAR OLD GAME!! does it. We need to have a different way of storing items.

I am so sick of hearing hackers this hackers that when they allow (still do, still see the same old bots I noticed in 3.2) gather bots to play despite numerous reports from different people.

Remove retainers holding items, remove retainers putting items on the market bard, letretainers be venture only. Give us a REAL item storage so we are not dealing with slow af menus and trying to talk to 8 different places for our items. I am sure that will help this "server load" they just upgraded servers and they still can't handle a glam log? what a joke, double all retainer inv if they can't do anything to remove the bloat. So sick of hearing "we can't do that" DO SOMETHING ABOUT OUR INVENTORY ISSUES!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...space-increase

I made a huge thread on different ideas they can take to help us deal with inventory management and menu bloats.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

And what I meant is that you have zero evidence to allege that it's an "excuse" or "false" in any shape or form.

Saying " if WoW can do it then they can" is a gross oversimplification completely blind to the reality of developing a complex game like a MMORPG, even more so on multiple platforms and with different features.

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Making us have item bloat so we spend more on retainers while giving out excuses.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

BS excuses, wow does it

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WoW uses a different game engine. That alone means how they approach implementing it isn't going to be a direct comparison.

By the way, it took 4.5 years after the addition of transmog (added in December 2011) to WoW for their appearance catalog to actually be implemented (added in July 2016), despite it being pretty much a day one request as a response (their original approach was Void Storage as a way of holding on to gear you wanted to use for glamour).

That alone should indicate that it is not a simple thing to add to a game that doesn't already have it, if it took longer than this version of this game has been around for them to add an appearance catalog.

Additionally, the answer isn't "We're not doing it" it's "We have concerns and there will be challenges to it" so all ya'll freakouts need to sit down and chill out.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

WoW uses a different game engine. That alone means how they approach implementing it isn't going to be a direct comparison.
By the way, it took almost five years after the addition of transmog to WoW for their appearance catalog to actually be implemented, despite it being pretty much a day one request as a response (their original approach was Void Storage as a way of holding on to gear you wanted to use for glamour).

That alone should indicate that it is not a simple thing to add to a game that doesn't already have it, if it took longer than this version of this game has been around for them to add an appearance catalog.

Additionally, the answer isn't "We're not doing it" it's "We have concerns and there will be challenges to it" so all ya'll freakouts need to sit down and chill out.

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We did not get an inventory fix all of HW, and now we are entering SB with out one. (All they did was keep adding items to fill our retainers with for HW, more and more rare nodes, etc) I have a huge list what they can do to help, they are not trying, they just want to overcharge us for retainers. When asked about it, all they do is joke about adding more retainers for us to pay for.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

We did not get an inventory fix all of HW, and now we are entering SB with out one. (All they did was keep adding items to fill our retainers with for HW, more and more rare nodes, etc) I have a huge list what they can do to help, they are not trying, they just want to overcharge us for retainers. When asked about it, all they do is joke about adding more retainers for us to pay for.

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We're talking about glamour logs and I'm specifically talking about how it's both not an easy addition for any game to do and how they (despite the gloom and doom of the OP) did not say they aren't doing it, not your pet thread about retainer space.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

We did not get an inventory fix all of HW, and now we are entering SB with out one. (All they did was keep adding items to fill our retainers with for HW, more and more rare nodes, etc) I have a huge list what they can do to help, they are not trying, they just want to overcharge us for retainers. When asked about it, all they do is joke about adding more retainers for us to pay for.

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What you don't seem to understand is that your "huge list" is absolutely meaningless without knowing how the game is coded, limitations on all platforms, and how the database is structured. All your solutions aren't really solutions. They're no more than suggestions from someone with an extremely limited viewpoint on the game, and you have zero idea of their applicability.

Basically, you're an armchair developer who pretends he knows what he's talking about using completely unrelated examples to throw around unsubstantiated accusations of using "excuses."

http://www.codingwisdom.com/codingwi...ss-me-off.html

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Originally Posted by Abriael

What you don't seem to understand is that your "huge list" is absolutely meaningless without knowing how the game is coded, limitations on all platforms, and how the database is structured. All your solutions aren't really solutions. They're no more than suggestions from someone with an extremely limited viewpoint on the game, and you have zero idea of their applicability.

Basically, you're an armchair developer who pretends he knows what he's talking about using completely unrelated examples to throw around unsubstantiated accusations of using "excuses."

http://www.codingwisdom.com/codingwi...ss-me-off.html

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They are using excuses so they can get away with overcharging people with retainer rental, all it is. Lets blindly accept everything they do because coding is hard, the only thing that is useless here is the link you gave. These forums are for suggestions and lets players have a voice, not for toxic people like you or Berethos that have an objective to put people down.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

They are using excuses so they can get away with overcharging people with retainer rental, all it is. Lets blindly accept everything they do because coding is hard, the only thing that is useless here is the link you gave. These forums are for suggestions and lets players have a voice, not for toxic people like you or Berethos that have an objective to put people down.

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There is a large difference between offering constructive suggestions with a shred of respect, and demanding one's "solutions" (devised with zero knowledge of the game's back end) to be implemented, while accusing of lying, giving excuses and similar not-so-nice antics if they aren't.

Before you call anyone else "toxic," you may want to learn that difference.

In the meanwhile, I'll let you into a little secret to help you out. "toxic" doesn't mean "they disagree with my opinion" nor it means "they disagree with the somewhat popular opinion." On the other hand, throwing "feedback" in form of demands, sprinkled with abundant unsubstantiated accusations and seething negativity if those demands aren't met... that does fit the definition of "toxic" basically to a T.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

There is a large difference between offering constructive suggestions with a shred of respect, and demanding one's "solutions" (devised with zero knowledge of the game's back end) to be implemented, while accusing of lying, giving excuses and similar not-so-nice antics if they aren't.Before you call anyone else "toxic," you may want to learn that difference.

In the meanwhile, I'll let you into a little secret to help you out. "toxic" doesn't mean "they disagree with my opinion" nor it means "they disagree with the somewhat popular opinion." On the other hand, throwing "feedback" in form of demands, sprinkled with abundant unsubstantiated accusations and seething negativity if those demands aren't met... that does fit the definition of "toxic" basically to a T.

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follow your own advice?

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Originally Posted by Abriael

What you don't seem to understand is that your "huge list" is absolutely meaningless without knowing how the game is coded, limitations on all platforms, and how the database is structured. All your solutions aren't really solutions. They're no more than suggestions from someone with an extremely limited viewpoint on the game, and you have zero idea of their applicability.

Basically, you're an armchair developer who pretends he knows what he's talking about using completely unrelated examples to throw around unsubstantiated accusations of using "excuses."

http://www.codingwisdom.com/codingwi...ss-me-off.html

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How is my list so different then this thread? Why are you attacking me for no reason? Yes you are being toxic to me, I am not being toxic to you, nor anyone, i was attacked first for no reason.

respect works 2 ways, they had all HW to do or even say something and have done neither but say "we can't" so yes that is just excuses at this point, do not be shocked when people begin to be frustrated. So if you want to call my list useless, your posts so far have been useless.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

follow your own advice?

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Oh I already am. I don't demand developers to follow my "suggestions" and call them liars or accuse them to pull excuses if they don't.

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How is my list so different then this thread? Why are you attacking me for no reason? Yes you are being toxic to me, I am not being toxic to you, nor anyone, i was attacked first for no reason

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You may have not noticed it (people tend not to), but by following your definition of "Toxic" you're being rather Toxic to Yoshida and the development team, accusing them with absolutely zero evidence of giving "excuses" and not implementing a feature with the objective of making players "spend more on retainers."

You're entirely free to offer feedback, but don't expect everyone to offer smiles and a pat on the back if you're not able to do it respectfully. Considering how hard this development team worked to steer a completely failed game into a successful one, and how hard they still work, the negativity they receive from some is absolutely stifling, and deserves a pushback.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

While I can't be 100% sure because I have no insight on how the inventory is coded, that is probably incorrect (almost surely, considering Yoshida's answer). An inventory item is normally stored as a numerical ID in a table that calls on a database with all the item's data. For each character only the ID is stored, not the whole item data, which is already present in the database, and is common for all characters. To store the fact that the item is available for glamoring, you'd have to store the same numerical ID in a dedicated table. This means that the memory footprint of the data would most probably be the same.

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A gear item in inventory has not just its own item ID, but the item ID of it's glamour, another for its dye, 5 item IDs for what materia is on it, a character ID for who crafted it, a counter for tracking spiritbond, and another for tracking its condition. And while we don't know details like how many bytes each of those identifiers is, we do know that they all have to be multi-byte fields, since there are a lot more than 256 items in the game, characters on a server, and actions towards spiritbonding or dropping condition to 0.

A tick in a log, on the other hand, takes one bit. That's nowhere near the same size as an item.

A glamour log of the 9099 visible gear items currently in the game would take up 1138 bytes of storage, though of course they'd need room for new items being added, so it would probably be more like 2kb or so (which would be enough to hold 16,384 items). At a reasonable guess at the size of gear in inventory as 44 bytes each, that would be enough space to hold 46 of them.

Out of all of that, the only parts I was estimating without knowledge of their specific coding practices are:
1) I guessed 4 bytes per item ID, character ID, or counter.
2) That an an 80% increase from the amount of current gear allows them enough room for adding new items through the next couple expansions or so.

While either of those guesses could be a little off, it's unlikely that either would be off by more than a factor of two, so that 16384 to 46 ratio is reasonably close, no matter how their system is set up.


Besides which, there was the other interview, where Yoshi pointed out that it was possible, but that it was their UI team that was too busy for it at the time. That's an explanation from him that actually makes sense. I'm perfectly willing to accept what he says when he makes sense, but not when he doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Server memory footprint should be the same regardless of how many times it's accessed. Lower frequency of access probably means lower server CPU load, but that normally isn't the problem.

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The issue on this is the transfer between the game servers and backup servers. *Active* data, the kind that can change while playing, is backed up every few seconds that you're logged in. Our characters also have other data, though, (like armoire storage or retainer inventory) that can only change while interacting with that feature and isn't accessible while out adventuring. That data is only backed up when we interact with it, and not all the rest of the time.

There have been multiple suggestions regarding a glamour log, and while some (like automatic inclusion of items whenever we get them) would require it to be classified as active data, others (where we manually place items there, like the armoire) would allow it to be backed up only on access and not the rest of the time. (Note: the limited access would only need to be on adding new items to the log. Using them for glamour could still be available from anywhere, since that doesn't change the contents of the log so doesn't require additional backups.)

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Originally Posted by Berethos

By the way, it took 4.5 years after the addition of transmog (added in December 2011) to WoW for their appearance catalog to actually be implemented (added in July 2016), despite it being pretty much a day one request as a response (their original approach was Void Storage as a way of holding on to gear you wanted to use for glamour).

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Once again: WoW is not the only MMO with an appearance log and many other MMOs have been able to implement it much earlier on in their life cycles. WoW added their appearance log AFTER it had become hugely popular in other MMOs. Stop pointing to the time it took WoW to add one as some excuse.

Their concerns are BS, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Besides which, there was the other interview, where Yoshi pointed out that it was possible, but that it was their UI team that was too busy for it at the time. That's an explanation from him that actually makes sense. I'm perfectly willing to accept what he says when he makes sense, but not when he doesn't.

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Both explanations make perfect sense, and both can coexist. The fact that the amount of resources required for each item on a log may be lower (depending on how it's coded) than that of an inventory slot, doesn't mean that the explanation isn't valid, as much as it's a simplification due to talking to a generalist crowd. The point is that it takes server resources, as an inventory slot does, and it's up to the team to judge whether those can be stretched further or not. Yoshida is not a programmer, so he's simply relaying to the press what his team tells him.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Once again: WoW is not the only MMO with an appearance log and many other MMOs have been able to implement it much earlier on in their life cycles.

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None of which is Final Fantasy XIV or coded like Final Fantasy XIV. Might want to drop the "other MMORPGs are doing it" as it was some kind of evidence that it's easily doable here. As it's not in any shape or form evidence of anything.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

None of which is Final Fantasy XIV or coded like Final Fantasy XIV. Might want to drop the "other MMORPGs are doing it" as it was some kind of evidence that it's easily doable here. It's not.

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Just curious how you are so knowledgeable about how exactly XIV is coded, are you part of the programming team?

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I literally have NO motivation to run content right now because I cannot store any more effin' armors for glamour.

To put this in perspective, I resubbed to WoW about 5 months ago after being away for 4 years. I've not even bought Legion yet. But I've remained subbed and happy just slowly farming up old armor sets and things to unlock in the transmog log. If you want to maintain subscriptions, encouraging people to farm armor appearances is THE way to do it. There is a reason your players say "Glamour is the real endgame" - because it is the CORE motivation that keeps players going back into content long after they've mastered it. However, what point is there in doing that when I cannot actually store any of the potential armors that I could get? Why would I ever want to go in and farm Dun Scaith or whatever when I have no room for the gear? Why bother with farming Alexander, or buying the numerous crafted items? Why bother making any Mogstation purchases? I have no room to store any of it, so I don't do it!!!

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Absolultely! It's like no matter how many times we try to point out that people like collecting things, not using them and throwing them out, they just seem to stick their fingers in their ears and go "Lalalala!" Then a few months later they add to basic inventory which fixes nothing but shuts some people up for a few weeks until it's full again. My armor literally takes up half my armory and half my on hand inventory. Once Stormblood starts, my armor will probably have enough space to move into the armory but then new stuff comes. My 2 retainers (i refuse to pay for more) are full of crafting and house and special items that they haven't put in the chest for no known reason. Since I'm not hardcore on crafting and only do it when I feel like it, I can live without a crafting bank, but I feel sorry for crafters. A real glam log, though, would fix every storage problem I have, now that Apartments are getting an item bump.

Anyway, the collector urge is what drives people to go back in to get the full set of armor, and there is a significant number of people who want to collect them all. Ignoring that is a disservice to the players.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Once again: WoW is not the only MMO with an appearance log and many other MMOs have been able to implement it much earlier on in their life cycles. WoW added their appearance log AFTER it had become hugely popular in other MMOs. Stop pointing to the time it took WoW to add one as some excuse.

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I know of only one other AAA MMO that has a similar large scale appearance catalog, that being GW2, and quite frankly they had some of the best talent working on their backend (as evidenced by their mega-server tech as well as their ability to patch while the game is live and simply require a quick restart of the client to apply the changes)...and my point with the time it took WoW (and GW2 in development, which took 5 years to come release) was that it's not an easy thing to put together on a larger scale.

Other games tend to use what are essentially costume panels. You can save 1-8 outfits (depending on the game) by essentially equipping a gear piece in that slot on the cosmetic panel menu, then choosing to display that piece of gear over another. This approach is the more common approach. None of those games simply save the appearance in a catalog for you to use later.

So, given how infrequently the catalog has been implemented, a logical discussion is going to look at not only which games have added it but also how and when it was added. That it took 4.5 years for WoW to actually implement it is absolutely relevant, as the difficulty of designing and implementing such a system is relevant to the discussion...assuming it's feasible (could technically be added, but ends up with some nasty side effects, which means it's possible but not feasible) or possible at all.

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Originally Posted by Valinis

Just curious how you are so knowledgeable about how exactly XIV is coded, are you part of the programming team?

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I most certainly am not. And I never claimed I did. A *fact* is that those accusing Yoshida of lying or pulling excuses aren't as well, and when one throws accusations around, he should probably comes with substantiated evidence, of which I saw one.

On the other hand, I have plenty of experience in interacting with Yoshida over several years due to my job, and he certainly does not strike me as someone who would intentionally lie or pull excuses. He has never been afraid of making unpopular statements, and his team is one of the most hard-working in the industry. So yeah, if they tell me something is impossible or problematic to implement, I certainly give them the benefit of the doubt.

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Originally Posted by savageink

Ignoring that is a disservice to the players.

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Unless you count not implementing it as the sole criteria for not ignoring it, they haven't.

They just haven't given the answer certain individuals have been fishing for. Unless you buy into a conspiracy theory that they are doing this just to make people spend extra money on retainers, then we ultimately have to accept that they will work toward the solutions that they can feasibly implement and continue to provide constructive feedback on the kinds of systems/features we want to see added...

Instead of immediately accusing them of excuses and lying and shady tactics designed solely to make a buck at our expense, as some posters here are wont to do.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

I know of only one other AAA MMO that has a similar large scale appearance catalog

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With out digging too much other than GW2 and WoW, I can think of Wildstar, DC Universe Online, SWTOR (clunky but has a ton of collections). I'm sure I'm missing some but I don't play every game.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I most certainly am not. And I never claimed I did. A *fact* is that those accusing Yoshida of lying or pulling excuses aren't as well, and when one throws accusations around, he should probably comes with substantiated evidence, of which I saw one.

On the other hand, I have plenty of experience in interacting with Yoshida over several years due to my job, and he certainly does not strike me as someone who would intentionally lie or pull excuses. He has never been afraid of making unpopular statements, and his team is one of the most hard-working in the industry. So yeah, if they tell me something is impossible or problematic to implement, I certainly give them the benefit of the doubt.

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You certainly did claim it.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

None of which is Final Fantasy XIV or coded like Final Fantasy XIV.

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I don't think you have the right to claim to know how the game is or is not coded if you are not on the development team.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

None of which is Final Fantasy XIV or coded like Final Fantasy XIV. Might want to drop the "other MMORPGs are doing it" as it was some kind of evidence that it's easily doable here. As it's not in any shape or form evidence of anything.

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Honestly doesn't matter. This is a fundamental QoL feature that SE should be able to provide.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

I know of only one other AAA MMO that has a similar large scale appearance catalog, that being GW2

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Rift, WildStar, Blade and Soul, SWTOR, DCUO, and I think Champions though I'm not sure.

[edit] Oops, meant to edit and add, not double post.

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Originally Posted by Valinis

I don't think you have the right to claim to know how the game is or is not coded.

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As a matter of fact, I do, since ALL MMORPGs are their own complex animals, and they're all coded differently. That's not something you need specific knowledge to be aware of.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Honestly doesn't matter. This is a fundamental QoL feature that SE should be able to provide.

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Says who exactly? I don't see that written in any of the tomes of law of making a good MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Unless you count not implementing it as the sole criteria for not ignoring it, they haven't.

They just haven't given the answer certain individuals have been fishing for. Unless you buy into a conspiracy theory that they are doing this just to make people spend extra money on retainers, then we ultimately have to accept that they will work toward the solutions that they can feasibly implement and continue to provide constructive feedback on the kinds of systems/features we want to see added...

Instead of immediately accusing them of excuses and lying and shady tactics designed solely to make a buck at our expense, as some posters here are wont to do.

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Nah. I don't really think think the retainers are some big conspiracy. I think it's just kind of a lazy solution. I think they have a certain set of priorities and we haven't given them enough of a push to find a solution. I've worked in Japanese companies, they are glacial and you have to get everyone behind something to get things moving. So, I also see nothing wrong with people talking about this over and over again. It's the only way it will get noticed.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

As a matter of fact, I do, since ALL MMORPGs are their own complex animals, and they're all coded differently. That's not something you need specific knowledge to be aware of.

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So now you are stating (as fact) that no two MMORPGs can be coded in a similar manner?

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Says who exactly? I don't see that written in any of the tomes of law of making a good MMORPG.

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The fact that it's a feature that gets requested dozens of times a month. SE can only be so blind.

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Originally Posted by Valinis

So now you are stating (as fact) that no two MMORPGs can be coded in a similar manner?

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No two MMORPGs created by different teams, with different features, are coded in the same way. Yes. That is a simple fact.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

The fact that it's a feature that gets requested dozens of times a month. SE can only be so blind.

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Dozens of times compared by hundreds of thousand of users. Without mentioning that the number of requests has absolutely no influence in how challenging a features it is to implement.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No two MMORPGs created by different teams, with different features, are coded in the same way. Yes. That is a simple fact.

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That's true in specifics, but alot of MMOs use either the unreal or unity engine as a base. What's placed on top of it is unique. I have no idea if Squeenix used an out of the box base, but it is worth noting.

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Originally Posted by savageink

That's true in specifics, but alot of MMOs use either the unreal or unity engine as a base. What's placed on top of it is unique. I have no idea if Squeenix used an out of the box base, but it is worth noting.

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Engine is just one of the building blocks that make an MMO. And the specifics are what really matter in products as complex as a MMORPG.

That said, Final Fantasy XIV uses its own proprietary engine which has been described as similar to Luminous. No Unity or Unreal here.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Rift, WildStar, Blade and Soul, SWTOR, DCUO, and I think Champions though I'm not sure.

[edit] Oops, meant to edit and add, not double post.

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WoW added one too - it's pretty spiffy!

Marketable items seem to have a fairly small role to play in glamour in the first place and I can't imagine there would be a drastic decrease in item value simply because you only need to acquire it once. If anything, I'd expect the price on most items to go up, especially initially, as collectors rush to fill the log. Unless there are far more alts people care enough about to invest greatly in glamour than I'd ever expect, the economic impact likely wouldn't be large.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Exactly what evidence you have to accuse a prominent developer of lying? Just so you know "We all know" is not evidence.

From a technical standpoint, the explanation Yoshida gave appears to be perfectly sound. An item being logged as available for glamor needs to be stored into memory, and it's stored into server memory in exactly the same way an item in your inventory is. From the point of view of server memory footprint, it's precisely like creating another inventory slot.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

While I can't be 100% sure because I have no insight on how the inventory is coded, that is probably incorrect (almost surely, considering Yoshida's answer). An inventory item is normally stored as a numerical ID in a table that calls on a database with all the item's data. For each character only the ID is stored, not the whole item data, which is already present in the database, and is common for all characters. To store the fact that the item is available for glamoring, you'd have to store the same numerical ID in a dedicated table. This means that the memory footprint of the data would most probably be the same.

It's not that I wouldn't love a glamor log, but accusing Yoshida of lying without the slightest evidence, technical expertise, or insight on how the game is coded sounds very, very dumb, and not at all constructive.



Server memory footprint should be the same regardless of how many times it's accessed. Lower frequency of access probably means lower server CPU load, but that normally isn't the problem.

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I was going to say some stuff...
But thig guy here said practically everything I wanted to say, so I'll just defer to his post.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

A gear item in inventory has not just its own item ID, but the item ID of it's glamour, another for its dye, 5 item IDs for what materia is on it, a character ID for who crafted it, a counter for tracking spiritbond, and another for tracking its condition. And while we don't know details like how many bytes each of those identifiers is, we do know that they all have to be multi-byte fields, since there are a lot more than 256 items in the game, characters on a server, and actions towards spiritbonding or dropping condition to 0.

A tick in a log, on the other hand, takes one bit. That's nowhere near the same size as an item.

A glamour log of the 9099 visible gear items currently in the game would take up 1138 bytes of storage, though of course they'd need room for new items being added, so it would probably be more like 2kb or so (which would be enough to hold 16,384 items). At a reasonable guess at the size of gear in inventory as 44 bytes each, that would be enough space to hold 46 of them.

Out of all of that, the only parts I was estimating without knowledge of their specific coding practices are:
1) I guessed 4 bytes per item ID, character ID, or counter.
2) That an an 80% increase from the amount of current gear allows them enough room for adding new items through the next couple expansions or so.

While either of those guesses could be a little off, it's unlikely that either would be off by more than a factor of two, so that 16384 to 46 ratio is reasonably close, no matter how their system is set up.


Besides which, there was the other interview, where Yoshi pointed out that it was possible, but that it was their UI team that was too busy for it at the time. That's an explanation from him that actually makes sense. I'm perfectly willing to accept what he says when he makes sense, but not when he doesn't.




The issue on this is the transfer between the game servers and backup servers. *Active* data, the kind that can change while playing, is backed up every few seconds that you're logged in. Our characters also have other data, though, (like armoire storage or retainer inventory) that can only change while interacting with that feature and isn't accessible while out adventuring. That data is only backed up when we interact with it, and not all the rest of the time.

There have been multiple suggestions regarding a glamour log, and while some (like automatic inclusion of items whenever we get them) would require it to be classified as active data, others (where we manually place items there, like the armoire) would allow it to be backed up only on access and not the rest of the time. (Note: the limited access would only need to be on adding new items to the log. Using them for glamour could still be available from anywhere, since that doesn't change the contents of the log so doesn't require additional backups.)

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Dozens of times compared by hundreds of thousand of users. Without mentioning that the number of requests has absolutely no influence in how challenging a features it is to implement.

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It's not really our obligation to worry about the challenge of something. Though again I think it does not speak highly of SE's devs if they cannot handle something like this. I like to think they are at least as skilled as others and willing to implement a feature that has been requested by the broader player base for a LONG time.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Oh I already am. I don't demand developers to follow my "suggestions" and call them liars or accuse them to pull excuses if they don't.



You may have not noticed it (people tend not to), but by following your definition of "Toxic" you're being rather Toxic to Yoshida and the development team, accusing them with absolutely zero evidence of giving "excuses" and not implementing a feature with the objective of making players "spend more on retainers."

You're entirely free to offer feedback, but don't expect everyone to offer smiles and a pat on the back if you're not able to do it respectfully. Considering how hard this development team worked to steer a completely failed game into a successful one, and how hard they still work, the negativity they receive from some is absolutely stifling, and deserves a pushback.

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Do you see them actually speaking to us about inventory space? No they joke about selling us more retainers. So yes I get frustrated from overpaying for a shortcoming, they make it feel they want to keep overcharging us for inventory rental. You tell me show respect, but how come I get none? waiting for 2 years to actually put some effort in this issue or say something? not joke about selling us more retainers?

The only toxicity here is you attacking me for no reason. I should not have my concerns snuffed out by toxic people such as yourself because I am not a programmer. My friend had to put up with crap all throughout of 2.0 saying she needed to deal with it when it came to the bad maps and look they are finally doing something about it. Maybe if it was not people like your self or those people that attack my friend, they can hear our voices.

Take that interview in the OP, if they can't do that, where is the efforts in alternatives? I am so sick of the problems with retainers. (slow menus, etc) Even if you saw my first post on the strong end, you had no right to walk over me and "deserves a pushback." I am frustrated with no response in 2 years + jokes about selling us more retainers (maybe) to deal with storage issues. No discussion on alternatives (assuming this excuse is true) why?

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Besides which, there was the other interview, where Yoshi pointed out that it was possible, but that it was their UI team that was too busy for it at the time. That's an explanation from him that actually makes sense. I'm perfectly willing to accept what he says when he makes sense, but not when he doesn't.




The issue on this is the transfer between the game servers and backup servers. *Active* data, the kind that can change while playing, is backed up every few seconds that you're logged in. Our characters also have other data, though, (like armoire storage or retainer inventory) that can only change while interacting with that feature and isn't accessible while out adventuring. That data is only backed up when we interact with it, and not all the rest of the time.

There have been multiple suggestions regarding a glamour log, and while some (like automatic inclusion of items whenever we get them) would require it to be classified as active data, others (where we manually place items there, like the armoire) would allow it to be backed up only on access and not the rest of the time. (Note: the limited access would only need to be on adding new items to the log. Using them for glamour could still be available from anywhere, since that doesn't change the contents of the log so doesn't require additional backups.)

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Marketable items seem to have a fairly small role to play in glamour in the first place and I can't imagine there would be a drastic decrease in item value simply because you only need to acquire it once. If anything, I'd expect the price on most items to go up, especially initially, as collectors rush to fill the log. Unless there are far more alts people care enough about to invest greatly in glamour than I'd ever expect, the economic impact likely wouldn't be large.

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Explain how there is an impact at all?I think he simply does not know economics, since the game's economy is poor to begin with. If a log soulbounds like glam does when you image it then what is the problem?

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Originally Posted by Naunet

It's not really our obligation to worry about the challenge of something. Though again I think it does not speak highly of SE's devs if they cannot handle something like this. I like to think they are at least as skilled as others and willing to implement a feature that has been requested by the broader player base for a LONG time.

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You're confusing yourself, or a bunch of people in a forum with "the broader player base." That's a common mistake to make. You're not "the broader player base." You speak for yourself, not for anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Do you see them actually speaking to us about inventory space?

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Besides how they spoke at length in a segment of a recent letter from the producer live and during the keynote at one of the fanfests on how they're adding inventory space in two weeks from now (40 inventory slots, plus 10 slots for each job in the armory chest), and they're experimenting to add more down the line?

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The only toxicity here is you attacking me for no reason.

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Quite convenient to call out others on "toxicity" while ignoring your own. You're directly attacking developers, accusing them of using "excuses" without any evidence whatsoever. You really don't have any high horse to stand on.

That said, you should probably be made aware of the fact that "toxicity" doesn't just mean "he disagrees with me." It appears you're confusing the two.

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I should not have my concerns snuffed out by toxic people such as yourself because I am not a programmer

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First of all, no one is "snuffing out" your concerns. Your posts aren't being deleted. If you post in a public discussion forum, people have the right and privilege to disagree with you. That's what "discussion" means.

Secondly, if you want to express your concerns, go right ahead. Yet, if you can't do it respectfully, then don't be surprised if people react. You seem to be very keen on dishing it out, but not on being on the receiving end.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Marketable items seem to have a fairly small role to play in glamour in the first place and I can't imagine there would be a drastic decrease in item value simply because you only need to acquire it once.

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Exactly. It's not like PotD doesn't already do a fine enough job of ruining the glamour economy (unless their intent there was to help the desynth economy). Having a reason for more people to want to purchase the gear would only increase demand. I can't imagine demand tapering off that quickly either, as there are always new players starting the game and new characters being made. At the very least, I'd imagine the demand for glamours would be more stable than the demand for housing items.

Edit: The demand for AF augment items would go up too.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You're confusing yourself, or a bunch of people in a forum with "the broader player base." That's a common mistake to make. You're not "the broader player base." You speak for yourself, not for anyone else.

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Do a quick survey in any main city, speak with your friends, linkshells or free company, I'd be surprised if the majority didn't answer that they do in fact want a glamour log.

"Moreover, if we were enabling players to keep their glamour, this could affect the game's economy because gears would fastly lose their value as you would need to obtain them only once."

This is the most BS answer I have ever heard. I have NEVER in the years playing this game bought an extra item just to reglamour it.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

"Moreover, if we were enabling players to keep their glamour, this could affect the game's economy because gears would fastly lose their value as you would need to obtain them only once."This is the most BS answer I have ever heard. I have NEVER in the years playing this game bought an extra item just to reglamour it.

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Some do, but it is rare and it has to do with rare dyes. Even then all the times I heard doing that was npc items or mog station. One example is how a friend bought 2 swimming tops, one to be pure black dye, one to be pure white dye and put them on different retainers. Saves money in the long run when you keep needing to redye say pure black stuff when the base is pure white...

But I really wondered what he meant and assumed something like , buy glam item, log it, then sell it and that is prevented easily by making it work like glam prisms, log it? becomes bound to you, really need better interviewers =/ to keep suggesting alternatives and see what can be done with inventory bloat. We are not given enough communication to offer something they are willing to do.