Samurai Discussion

A lot of videos from the media event purposely left out talk of potency because they knew the tooltips were somewhat screwed up.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

good news, an amazing person on reddit did some good potency math for kenki and skills with some insight into useage.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...about_samurai/

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Lol, I posted this less than 10 posts ago.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Lol, I posted this less than 10 posts ago.

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BAH! I thought it was a different post. I'm asleep at the wheel today. Thanks for pointing that out. :)

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Originally Posted by yillin

Edited the main post with the link but adding it here too for extra visibility

Reddit user /u/lenoan created a pretty nice spreadsheet for creating rotations for samurai. Use it to play around and see if you can come up with the best solution. To use it just create a copy for yourself from the file menu I believe. All you have to do is pick a skill from the action column. The rest of the table fills itself in:

Samurai Rotation Spreadsheet

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Fantastic tool, however, it's missing Ageha, and the damage modifiers don't apply to Yaten, Enbi, or Gyoten in the calculations. Other than that, good stuff.

Ageha is SAM's Assasinate, so it's not part of a rotation.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

Ageha is SAM's Assasinate, so it's not part of a rotation.

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Doesn't sound like an assassinate on this, just sounds like you can use it whenever and if you land a killing blow with it you get extra gauge. Might be a mistranslation, though.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Doesn't sound like an assassinate on this, just sounds like you can use it whenever and if you land a killing blow with it you get extra gauge. Might be a mistranslation, though.

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http://i.imgur.com/DpRHqwM.png
発動条件：対象のＨＰが２０％以下
Or you can go check any demo video that show off this skill.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

発動条件：対象のＨＰが２０％以下
Or you can go check any demo video that show off this skill.

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Can't read Japanese but I'm assuming this translates to something like "can only be executed @ <20% HP", in which case fair enough.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Can't read Japanese but I'm assuming this translates to something like "can only be executed @ >20% HP", in which case fair enough.

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Incorrect, The skill can be used at anytime, however the extra Kenki gain only happens during the execute window if you get the kill.

It basically looks like its like, This attack does 250 potency.

Bonus 1 : 10 kenki

Bonus 2 (Only happens at 20%or below and only if you get the kill) 20 Kenki ( Maybe 20+10 if kill ; otherwise just 10)


However it could just be weird wording and also only be an execute. As in the videos it definitely doesn't look available till 20% or below period.

They could change the window or the entire effect before SB releases though, so just keep in mind everything is still in development.

for opener consideration, some videos i've seen have the samurai at 15 kenki while out of combat and though perhaps some are taken as clips and the character could have been in combat before they were recorded, it would be interesting if the samurai would generate up to 15 kenki OOC natively. it would change the opener a little bit or make it easier to dump some kenki and still be sure to have enough for kaiten

After reading ExShikyo's reddit post that 3 Sen Hagakure would bring more dps then using the Sen on Midare Setsugeka,I decided to see if I could figure out a potential opener.
Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...urai/?sort=new

We've yet to confirm if Hissatsu: Kaiten effects Higanbana's DoT so I will post the same open twice,one if Kaiten works with the DoT,and one if it doesn't,but the opener is almost exactly the same regardless.

The K refers to how much Kenki you've built

Update: Improved Opener found here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4173631

I̶f̶ ̶K̶a̶i̶t̶e̶n̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶s̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶H̶i̶g̶a̶n̶b̶a̶n̶a̶'̶s̶ ̶D̶o̶T̶ ̶

̶"̶M̶e̶i̶k̶y̶o̶ ̶S̶h̶i̶s̶u̶i̶"̶ ̶>̶ ̶Y̶u̶i̶k̶i̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶1̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶G̶e̶k̶k̶o̶(̶2̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶K̶a̶s̶h̶a̶(̶3̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶"̶H̶a̶g̶a̶k̶u̶r̶e̶"̶(̶9̶0̶K̶)̶

̶H̶a̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶9̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶J̶i̶n̶p̶u̶(̶1̶0̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶"̶H̶i̶s̶s̶a̶t̶s̶u̶:̶ ̶G̶u̶r̶e̶n̶"̶(̶5̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶G̶e̶k̶k̶o̶(̶6̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶"̶H̶i̶s̶s̶a̶t̶s̶u̶:̶ ̶K̶a̶i̶t̶e̶n̶"̶(̶4̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶H̶i̶g̶a̶n̶b̶a̶n̶a̶(̶4̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶

̶H̶a̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶4̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶S̶h̶i̶f̶u̶(̶4̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶K̶a̶s̶h̶a̶(̶5̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶H̶a̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶6̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶Y̶u̶i̶k̶i̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶7̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶H̶a̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶7̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶J̶i̶n̶p̶u̶(̶8̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶G̶e̶k̶k̶o̶(̶9̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶"̶H̶i̶s̶s̶a̶t̶s̶u̶:̶ ̶K̶a̶i̶t̶e̶n̶"̶(̶7̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶M̶i̶d̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶S̶e̶t̶s̶u̶g̶e̶k̶k̶a̶

Update: Improved Opener found here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4173631

I̶f̶ ̶K̶a̶i̶t̶e̶n̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶N̶O̶T̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶H̶i̶g̶a̶n̶b̶a̶n̶a̶'̶s̶ ̶D̶o̶T̶

̶"̶M̶e̶i̶k̶y̶o̶ ̶S̶h̶i̶s̶u̶i̶"̶ ̶>̶ ̶Y̶u̶i̶k̶i̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶1̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶G̶e̶k̶k̶o̶(̶2̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶K̶a̶s̶h̶a̶(̶3̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶"̶H̶a̶g̶a̶k̶u̶r̶e̶"̶(̶9̶0̶K̶)̶

H̶a̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶9̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶J̶i̶n̶p̶u̶(̶1̶0̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶"̶H̶i̶s̶s̶a̶t̶s̶u̶:̶ ̶G̶u̶r̶e̶n̶"̶(̶5̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶G̶e̶k̶k̶o̶(̶6̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶H̶i̶g̶a̶n̶b̶a̶n̶a̶(̶6̶0̶K̶)̶

H̶a̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶6̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶S̶h̶i̶f̶u̶(̶6̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶K̶a̶s̶h̶a̶(̶7̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶H̶a̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶8̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶Y̶u̶i̶k̶i̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶9̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶H̶a̶k̶a̶z̶e̶(̶9̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶J̶i̶n̶p̶u̶(̶1̶0̶0̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶"̶H̶i̶s̶s̶a̶t̶s̶u̶:̶ ̶S̶h̶i̶n̶t̶e̶n̶"̶(̶7̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶G̶e̶k̶k̶o̶(̶8̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶"̶H̶i̶s̶s̶a̶t̶s̶u̶:̶ ̶K̶a̶i̶t̶e̶n̶"̶(̶6̶5̶K̶)̶ ̶>̶ ̶M̶i̶d̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶S̶e̶t̶s̶u̶g̶e̶k̶k̶a̶


You'll start the fight with Yuikikaze which puts the slashing debuff right away which other slashing jobs would benifit from as well. When using Gekko and Kasha be sure to hit their postionals for 10 Kenki. Once you reach Jinpu in this
opener you'll hit 100 Kenki just as you get your 15% Damage up,thanks to this all your Hissatsu will benifit from both 15% Damage up and Slashing debuff. This is also why I would use Jinpu before Shifu as Shifu only boosts your GCDs and Auto-attacks and NOT your oGCDs which are your Hissatsu skills.

As for why I didn't weave in more Hissatsu,you are free to do so(Mainly using Hissatsu: Shinten),but you might possibly want to time WHEN you use them with who you have in your party. "Example: You have a Ninja in your party you would try to squeeze them in during "Trick Attack" Just make sure you never waste any Kenki by hitting 100,I only added Hissatsu if the next GCD would've hit the 100 cap or if it was Kaiten for the 50% damage increase.
Also with pointing out is I used Hissatsu: Guren in the opener,but it largely depends on whether or not there will be multiple targets to hit with in the next 2 mins? If yes then rather save Guren for when they appear,if no then use Guren,which does more damage then two Shinten which costs the same amount of Kenki

This opener will take roughly about 30-35 secs

After reaching Midare Setsugekka it's about priority:
Which of Jinpu,Shifu,and Yuikikaze's buffs are closer to falling off?
Is Higanbana's DoT almost done? If yes then get 1 Sen to put it back up.
When you get 3 Sen is Hagakure ready or almost ready and do you have 40 or less Kenki? If yes then use Hagakure,if no then use Midare Setsugekka instead while ALWAYS using it with Hissatsu: Kaiten

Special notes:
Iaijutsu does NOT break combos. "Example: You open 3 Sen for Midare Setsugekka but Jinpu's 15% Damage up falls off,you could do Hakaze > Jinpu > Midare Setsugekka > Gekko(Getsu Sen opens)"
Starry Eyes might possibly only cost 15 Kenki according to the Japanese tooltip + players experence. Based on the "5 Kenki=60 Potency" rule then Starry Eyes would be better to use over Hissatsu: Shinten. If it is 25 Kenki then there's no point to use it :(

AoE Rotation pretty simple really

[Fuga > Mangetsu + Fuga > Oka] > Tenka Goken. Throw in "Hissatsu: Guren" and "Hissatsu: Kyuten" when best
One thing I considered was if Hissatsu: Kaiten might possibly increase Tenka Goken damage for all targets hit,but I believe Tenka Goken's damage fall off for more targets hit would make it a waste if Kenki and you'd be better of using Hissatsu: Kyuten instead.

If there are any mistakes I made or if there is a more potent opener please let me know.

This opener was made based on the information from the Media Tour event and can possibly change by the release of Stormblood.
I have also posted this on the reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...murai/did4trm/

Thanks for reading ^_^

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Doesn't sound like an assassinate on this, just sounds like you can use it whenever and if you land a killing blow with it you get extra gauge. Might be a mistranslation, though.

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Yeah I went back and re-read the tooltip. You're correct, according to what it currently says.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

Yeah I went back and re-read the tooltip. You're correct, according to what it currently says.

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Ageha is, indeed, a assassinate skill. If you watch Merri's video you will see that the skill does not light up to be used until the mob was at 20%.

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Originally Posted by Daioh

snip

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Great opener theory. I'm working on an XIVRotations image capture based on it in photoshop to help visualize as these Japanese names probably make others head spin as well. Where would you insert the POT in this opener?

It is interesting in the Reddit post his response on Yaten,Enbi,Gyoten (YEG). He's correct that the tooltip says "Bonus" potency 300 as if it's in addition to the 100 making it a 400 potency move and the combo itself 600. Which would make it very worthwhile in rotations, TP permitting.

We'll have to see how things really are on the 16th.

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Originally Posted by Coltvoyance

It is interesting in the Reddit post his response on Yaten,Enbi,Gyoten (YEG). He's correct that the tooltip says "Bonus" potency 300 as if it's in addition to the 100 making it a 400 potency move and the combo itself 600. Which would make it very worthwhile in rotations, TP permitting.

We'll have to see how things really are on the 16th.

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The Japanese tooltip just says "Enbi effect up (which you get from executing Yaten) potency : 300 "

The English might be worded weirdly, but it's just that, potency from having enhanced Enbi = 300. The current 3 MCH's weaponskill tooltips also have this kind of weird wording regarding ammo's effect and bonus potency.

The one the reddit thread didn't cover that I want to know about is the dot. It's lower potency than midare(unless kaiten works on the dot effect too) and while I can theorycraft decently I'm not the best at it, so it's hard to know if it's ever worth using.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

The one the reddit thread didn't cover that I want to know about is the dot. It's lower potency than midare(unless kaiten works on the dot effect too) and while I can theorycraft decently I'm not the best at it, so it's hard to know if it's ever worth using.

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It's higher. The total potency over time is 940. Midare is 720

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

It's higher. The total potency over time is 940. Midare is 720

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You're never using midare without kaiten so midare is 1080.

Yes you would always use the dot on anything that's going to live for a fair chunk of it. Sen is a resource. 1 sen is effectively 20 kenki. Higanbana is 940 potency for 20 kenki which is crazy efficient. Kaiten'd Midare is effectively 80 kenki for 1080 which is pretty overpriced for what it is.

Confused why people are looking to add Enbi to their basic rotation. The value of Yaten and Gyoten is the ability to maintain dps uptime, not procing an attack that will do about 70 more potency for nearly 3 times the cost, nevermind that yaten and gyoten themselves are kenki inefficient in terms of damage dealt. Plus however many auto's you miss.

Like, they're good skills for dodging AE and getting back in there and maintaining some semblance of dps when you otherwise would be dealing none, but as part of a standard opener or something you'd want to be doing on cooldown? Even on fights where the tp cost wouldn't be an issue, I don't see it.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Confused why people are looking to add Enbi to their basic rotation. The value of Yaten and Gyoten is the ability to maintain dps uptime, not procing an attack that will do about 70 more potency for nearly 3 times the cost, nevermind that yaten and gyoten themselves are kenki inefficient in terms of damage dealt. Plus however many auto's you miss.

Like, they're good skills for dodging AE and getting back in there and maintaining some semblance of dps when you otherwise would be dealing none, but as part of a standard opener or something you'd want to be doing on cooldown? Even on fights where the tp cost wouldn't be an issue, I don't see it.

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I thought the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Confused why people are looking to add Enbi to their basic rotation. The value of Yaten and Gyoten is the ability to maintain dps uptime, not procing an attack that will do about 70 more potency for nearly 3 times the cost, nevermind that yaten and gyoten themselves are kenki inefficient in terms of damage dealt. Plus however many auto's you miss.

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Enhanced enbi is 300 potency and gives 10 keniki. The full combo is 500 potency for a net cost of 10 keniki. The potency cost of each keniki is based on shinten which is 300 potency for 25 keniki. The enbi combo works out to a dps increase but of course you're paying in tp. The reddit thread goes over the math better than I can but the conclusion there is that the combo is a dps increase.

Still wish I had someone who could better do the math than me and see if the dot is worth using. I think it is, cause why have it otherwise, but I don't know for sure.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Enhanced enbi is 300 potency and gives 10 keniki. The full combo is 500 potency for a net cost of 10 keniki. The potency cost of each keniki is based on shinten which is 300 potency for 25 keniki. The enbi combo works out to a dps increase but of course you're paying in tp. The reddit thread goes over the math better than I can but the conclusion there is that the combo is a dps increase.

Still wish I had someone who could better do the math than me and see if the dot is worth using. I think it is, cause why have it otherwise, but I don't know for sure.

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Did they factor in the fact that you're not working towards gaining any Sen during this rotation?

or autoattacking potentially

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...psffujjyvu.jpg

Once i find out where the POT should go i'll update the imgr.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

Did they factor in the fact that you're not working towards gaining any Sen during this rotation?

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You can look in the reddit thread, link is a few pages back. It looks like the conclusion is it's a minor dps increase.What I take away from all of it is SAM is complicated(i like that) and maximizing dps is going to take some effort.

that looks like a solid use of meikyo and hagakure, getting them both on CD as soon as possible, thanks you two, ill be putting this in my archive of things to further test.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

Did they factor in the fact that you're not working towards gaining any Sen during this rotation?

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The Reddit post does do all the math for it. Using the YEG Combo comes out to about 138 extra (I think) potency than doing something else since it's 10 Kenki and only 1 GCD. Yaten and Gyoten are instant, as is Enbi (to cast it), doing it fast enough, there's little chance you might even miss an auto attack with it. And if you do happen to miss 1 auto attack its still an increase.

Not to mention, I've been building rotations with YEG in it and it really helps with spacing things out appropriately. With YEG, my Yukikaze/Jinpu/Shifu buffs get refreshed with around 3 seconds left as opposed to rotations without YEG where they get refreshed while there's still 10 or 12 seconds on the buffs.

YEG has also helped create proper spacing for Higanbana timing and a secondary Hagakure.

A rotation I built without YEG, I ran into an issue where I had all 3 Sen but Hagakure was still 10 seconds away from being off Cooldown. I could use Midare, but it would be more efficient to use Hagakure right when it comes off CD instead of after I build them up again. Inserting a few YEG combos spaced it out perfectly.

In another instance YEG helped prevent a Midare and Higanbana from needing to happen at the same time. I had just built 3 Sen, and Higanbana ran out. I would have to Cast Midare, and have Higanbana off for 2 or 3 ticks in that situation.

YEG helps space a lot of these elements out eerily well and it does it without a loss in DPS. I think we'll find it very essential to the rotation, but that's my opinion...

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Originally Posted by Coltvoyance

YEG Rules!

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Speaking of which, 10-yalms isn't that much far away, and Enbi is a GCD, so pretty much you could choose not to use Gyoten and manually walk back to the boss (or take advantage of the very big hitboxes).
If 1 Auto-attack loss is a depreciable damage, you could just accept it and not do Gyoten at all and end with a 0 Kenki loss... well, there is also the 100 potency loss from not using Gyoten tho.

Credit to Lenoan for their spreadsheet simulation but I went ahead and plugged Daiohmaou's rotation with the help of Probound's visual representation, and while its a decent potency opener i cant help but see the amount of kenki that is left in reserve, maybe more shinters can be placed within the "opener" for training dummy purposes. heres the simulation as you can see by the time we would Midare Setsugekka, we would have 70 Kenki left in the tank. :)


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1241659134

in the second tab labelled rotation 2 theres the opener with more shintens and less kenki by the 34 second time stamp. again credit to Lenoan from reddit.

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...psffujjyvu.jpg

Once i find out where the POT should go i'll update the imgr.

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Apologizes for the late reply,I wish to thank you for taking the time of creating an image that shows the opener I made,that said I was told that trying to put up the Damage buff sooner would lead to more potency earlier. So I relooked at the Opener I made and for the most part swapped the first and second parts around. The new opener would go like this:

Hakaze(5K) > Jinpu(10K) > Gekko(20K)+"Pot" > Higanbana(20K)

"Meikyo Shisui" > Yuikikaze(30K) > Gekko(40K) > Kasha(50K)+"Hissatsu: Guren" > "Hagakure"(60K)

Hakaze(65K)+"Hissatsu: Shinten"(40K)+"Hissatsu: Shinten"(15K) > Shifu(20K) > Kasha(30K)+"Hissatsu: Shinten"(5K) > Hakaze(10K) > Jinpu(15K) > Gekko(25K) > Hakaze(30K) > Yuikikaze(40K) >"Hissatsu: Kaiten"(20K)+Midare Setsugekka

This Opener has Jinpu's damage up earlier buffing the 3 finishers after you use Meikyo Shisui,plus your Higanbana DoT is applied earlier. And this time I included the Pot,you absolutely want to use your Pot so Higanbana DoT benifits from it as even after the Pot falls off the Dot will continue to be powered from the Pot. I also this time included using Hissatsu: Shinten every time since before my reason for reserving Kenki was to possibly use them all during party buffs such as Nin's Trick Attack,but that would require communication with your team so instead we'll just focus on using your Kenki skills asap during both Damage up+Pot

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Enhanced enbi is 300 potency and gives 10 keniki. The full combo is 500 potency for a net cost of 10 keniki. The potency cost of each keniki is based on shinten which is 300 potency for 25 keniki. The enbi combo works out to a dps increase but of course you're paying in tp. The reddit thread goes over the math better than I can but the conclusion there is that the combo is a dps increase.

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Enhanced enbi is about 70 more potency than the average potency of your GCD's. Which is the issue with just using it, you are barely doing more damage than you would playing more standard for a drastically increased tp cost and it becomes an immediate huge dps loss if you need to dodge an ae that would otherwise prevent you from attacking and you have to just walk in and out of it like a peasant because Yaten and Gyoten are on cooldown.

I did forget that enbi itself generated 10 kenki though so I will be more inclined to use it on fights where I know that AE and TP issues won't come up.

hey the potency shot up quite a bit with the alteration, I wasn't able to simulate the pot potency within the simulation, but it obviously would be even higher, my only question is that two of your shintens are essentially back to back, almost like a double weave, was this intentional with the thought of the Pot falling off on both shintens, or was it just on a whim, because i put it in with them back to back, and also spaced out between hakaze, shifu, and kasha and the potency stayed the same. anywho great job, keep it going!

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Originally Posted by Herokoon

hey the potency shot up quite a bit with the alteration, I wasn't able to simulate the pot potency within the simulation, but it obviously would be even higher, my only question is that two of your shintens are essentially back to back, almost like a double weave, was this intentional with the thought of the Pot falling off on both shintens, or was it just on a whim, because i put it in with them back to back, and also spaced out between hakaze, shifu, and kasha and the potency stayed the same. anywho great job, keep it going!

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Heya,yeah the double weave was on purpose as they are meant to be used just before the Pot falls off,another possibility is with enough skill speed and decent latency it might be possible to use the Pot a GCD early,between Jinpu and Gekko. Also I can't say how effective double weaving the same oGCD will be,Shinten has a short 1s CD so in theory you might be able to use it twice between GCDs,but that we'll have to test in-game.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

You're never using midare without kaiten so midare is 1080.

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If you are in a predicament where you have 3 kenki and no kaiten, should you convert them and fire off 3 shintens instead? It's more of a potency gain than an unbuffed mandare. I haven't seen too many mentions of shinten.