DRK is going to be Nerfed in Stormblood

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Are you also taking into consideration the effective MP gained by Darkside not constantly eating away MP when you say current MP gain is as good as it gets?

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You could say we "effectively gain 127 mp" per tick, but we lost the 353 mp from blood price ticks, and it's pretty darn hard to gauge how much MP you can gain by its usage due to varying factors, but the simple matter is we have more things to spend our MP on more frequently, and less tools to address those needs.

JP tootip does appear to have a 10% buff to damage taken from Soul Survivor unless famitsu accidentally mixed PVP and PVE. That's about a 1% DPS increase for the party, but factoring in the burst phase it's not at all insignificant.

The text is green, but so is the duration so that's not an indication that it's a PVP effect.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

You could say we "effectively gain 127 mp" per tick, but we lost the 353 mp from blood price ticks, and it's pretty darn hard to gauge how much MP you can gain by its usage due to varying factors, but the simple matter is we have more things to spend our MP on more frequently, and less tools to address those needs.

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Darkside no longer drains our MP, Blood Weapon has been buffed, Delirium is like an awesome little Ether that also extends said buffed Blood Weapon, Blood Price hasn't gone anywhere for anyone in a position where it would be used they just have to dance a little for it.
We'll have the tools to manage MP and we really don't actually have that many new things to be spending MP on.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Darkside no longer drains our MP, Blood Weapon has been buffed, Delirium is like an awesome little Ether that also extends said buffed Blood Weapon, Blood Price hasn't gone anywhere for anyone in a position where it would be used they just have to dance a little for it.
We'll have the tools to manage MP and we really don't actually have that many new things to be spending MP on.

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From what I can tell, we'll be spamming Dark Arts twice as often. Or at least trying to if our bar isn't empty and we need to go back to Grit now.

Why does Grit still cost MP with a need to return to Grit to help restore MP faster?

Lose MP to gain MP, or are we just not stance dancing any longer?

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

Why does Grit still cost MP with a need to return to Grit to help restore MP faster?

Lose MP to gain MP, or are we just not stance dancing any longer?

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With the changes to tanks over all, I would argue they intend to force tanks to stay in tank stance when tanking, and only dropping it for OTing. or at least, try to stick to this more often.
(since people used tank stance more as a CD, rather than the stance for tanking)

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

Why does Grit still cost MP with a need to return to Grit to help restore MP faster?

Lose MP to gain MP, or are we just not stance dancing any longer?

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On the contrary, stance dancing for us might be easier than WAR or PLD. From what I've seen and heard, we don't sacrifice our gauge to stance dance. We are still sacrificing mp to use Grit, but I don't think it will be as punishing for our resources as some might think. Really, we'll just have to wait and see how the job flows once SB hits. I'm excited though.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

With the changes to tanks over all, I would argue they intend to force tanks to stay in tank stance when tanking, and only dropping it for OTing. or at least, try to stick to this more often.
(since people used tank stance more as a CD, rather than the stance for tanking)

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Which is a good thing, in Japan there is no such thing as stance dance....only tanks that play tank....

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Which is a good thing, in Japan there is no such thing as stance dance....only tanks that play tank....

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Interesting to hear.

Ever since I stopped playing with my JP friends from XI, I'm out of the loop on normal JP strategies. (Usually I agree with them, with an occasional disagreement, where I'll find NA player strategies better. Such as the merit PT builds of NA players, and PLDs using cure to heal themselves/build threat in NA PTs in XI.)

But you could argue the same here, as most tanks dont stance dance.

So does that mean we believe its best over all?

I'm not certain we're exactly getting a DPS Nerf (between the buffs to Darkside and the new Blood abilities that is going to be hard to calculate), but I am a little disappointed Living Dead and Unleash/Abyssal Drain didn't get looked at. Living Dead is currently a bit too finicky to use in PUG groups, and seemed ripe for some simplification. Unleash and Abyssal Drain serve the same purpose (AOE aggro generators/damage), and could have been adjusted to either give them new utility or simply combine them into one ability, similar to how Stone now "levels up" with traits. Instead, they drastically reduced the potency on Unleash, meaning it will probably just get ignored in favor of Abyssal Drain. Overall, I'm a little underwhelmed by the DRK changes, although the Paladin (and to a lesser extent Warrior) changes look fantastic.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

..but I am a little disappointed Living Dead and Unleash/Abyssal Drain didn't get looked at. Living Dead is currently a bit too finicky to use in PUG groups, and seemed ripe for some simplification...

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Well, with the incoming 4.0 PLD I've prepared an argument for buffing Living Dead and Holmgang to bring them into 4.x game.

But let PLD have it's day.

Too soon.

Too soon.

Following DRK has been a roller coaster of emotions. At first I was really worried that we'd lost our defensive edge, and then it seemed like we'd gained so much DPS and could possibly overtake WAR.

Since then I've realized that we got our own better version of Inner Beast, and our DPS, as it stands now, is actually nerfed. Darkside's buff is great and all, but we lost way too much. Low Blow's potency + reprocs, Reprisal's hefty potency, and Scourge being the big downer on our DPS. Not to mention that Dark Passenger's MP cost is through the roof now (on top of a slight nerf to it when not DA'd.) All our MP buffs don't comprise an overall buff, but are rather necessary to mitigate the loss.

Sadly, they won't achieve it fully as things stand now.

On another note, I've no earthly idea why they added a new AoE (despite it having an awesome animation) while also keeping all our old AoEs.

Does Unleash even have a purpose for a well played DRK now?

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

On another note, I've no earthly idea why they added a new AoE (despite it having an awesome animation) while also keeping all our old AoEs.

Does Unleash even have a purpose for a well played DRK now?

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Unleash hardly has a purpose for today's well played DRKs anyways. As it stands, it only serves to "round up" enemies into a neat spot for abyssal drain spam. 50 potency in stormblood, it will still serve the same purpose. Use it once, maybe twice for round up adds, then go to town with AD.

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

Not to mention that Dark Passenger's MP cost is through the roof now (on top of a slight nerf to it when not DA'd.)

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DA DP is the one with a Potency nerf. Both current and Stormblood has it at 150 base but DA is 250/240 respectively. Unless the targets can be blinded, there will be almost no good justification for using DA DP.
It will still be worth using standard DP at any number of targets however as the MP to Potency cost still exceeds DA's MP to Potency on anything other than C&S and Grit Bloodspiller

Ah right, fair enough. The MP cost of it is lame though (2x!). I hope they adjust that and that the numbers for DA in general hadn't been accounted for at all.

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

Ah right, fair enough. The MP cost of it is lame though (2x!). I hope they adjust that and that the numbers for DA in general hadn't been accounted for at all.

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The skills MP cost have always been a % of max, I am hoping the increase is because of what our MP will be at 70.

Dark Passenger cost right now is recovered with one siphon strike and its half the cost of a Dark Arts. On the Stormblood it cost the same as Dark Arts (2400 mp) and you need two Siphon strikes to recover the mp (1200 mp), so no doubt, the cost has been increased x2

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Originally Posted by Falar

The skills MP cost have always been a % of max, I am hoping the increase is because of what our MP will be at 70.

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the following is incorrect.
our max MP is roughly the same if not the same.

at Lv60 mine is in the 9,000s, and the video shows them at Lv70 in the 9,000s.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

our max MP is roughly the same if not the same.

at Lv60 mine is in the 9,000s, and the video shows them at Lv70 in the 9,000s.

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Either you're wearing a lot of piety, or haven't played in ages. I play a raen (22 piety, second only to Dunesfolk's 23), and my MP is 6939.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

Either you're wearing a lot of piety, or haven't played in ages. I play a raen (22 piety, second only to Dunesfolk's 23), and my MP is 6939.

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Logged into my DRK, and it appears I was incorrect, it is 6.9k.

So, it seems our MP will go up roughly 40%~ so if the cost is based on our level/max mp, then there's another X%~ added onto its cost. (atm im forgetting how to determine a more accurate number here, dont want to say anything between 40-60%, since im not sure)

Am I the only one that kinda wish we got an extra defensive cooldown in the cross role compared to pali and warrior drk has nothing on the df cooldown side

20% max hp shield while MT every 15 seconds, 10% max hp shield for MT while OT also every 15 seconds, with the added benefit of giving 50 gauge after 5 seconds, so an extra bloodspiller without the using bloodprice/bloodweapon/souleater/salted earth

Being able to have the option to Dark Arts syphon blade is stupid and it should just have that effect and potency increase as the base skill. I know it's off topic but it bugs the crap outta me.

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Originally Posted by roonike

20% max hp shield while MT every 15 seconds, 10% max hp shield for MT while OT also every 15 seconds, with the added benefit of giving 50 gauge after 5 seconds, so an extra bloodspiller without the using bloodprice/bloodweapon/souleater/salted earth

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Its the same MP cost as Dark Arts, so its not worth using 99% of the time.
That other tank, or yourself, better be completely unable to survive the tank buster, or you better not have any other means to fill the blood gauge.

(unless they stopped focusing on making the whole fight 1 DPS check, but instead put various DPS checks with small breaks into the fight, with actual survival moments)

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Being able to have the option to Dark Arts syphon blade is stupid and it should just have that effect and potency increase as the base skill. I know it's off topic but it bugs the crap outta me.

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Something I noticed last night, playing DRK again for the 1st time in forever, I noticed I tend to hit DA right before the 2nd hit of my combo, to avoid clipping issues, so this may have been done intentionally as a means to remove DAs if you prep it early, rather than right as you do the attack.

PLUS early in the fight might be near full MP, so hitting it BEFORE syphon would allow me to have spent less over all for a DA. So I'd wager its a small addition to actually punish you from trying to make it easier on yourself.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Delerium change is good also, I have nothing bad to say about the new dark.

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Need a GCD for Bloodspiller

Deliriums underwhelming. Theres a pretty solid theorycraft post on the FFXIV subreddit,

"The gain from extending Blood Weapon 8 seconds results in 7 extra hits in a normal scenario. This means 7*480+2400 (5760) mana gained and 21 blood gauge recovered. This is 2.4 Dark arts or 336 potency, the lost Blood Gauge is worth (29/50)*380 (220.4) potency. This is equal to a 115.6 potency gain if you get full uptime on the extended BW. When all is said and done, it’s a convoluted, glorified 2 minute, 115.6 potency cooldown."

Delirium is meh, Quietus for trash pulls, Bloodspiller is less potent Scourge, BN potency loss due to MP consumption...

We need a condensed 4.0 DRK concerns is what we need

Post for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._2_minute_115/

Agreed, this is almost 2.0 warrior levels of garbage. Thought the WHOLE REASON we weren't getting a new tank was to BALANCE the current ones.

HOW IS THIS BALANCED, PLEASE EXPLAIN SQUARE.

PLD: Most dps, best defensive, best utility

Warrior: Middle of road dps(high burst dps), decent self sustain, slashing utility

DRK: Worst dps of 3(sustain and burst), low defensives (only 4 at lvl 70), ZERO utility

I don't understand, why is this class even in the game? It has 0 niche, no defensives, no damage, maybe it does the most aggro generation... woooooo?
What's a tank if they can't take hits, and can't help the group? All we have is blackest night and even then there's no reason to take a DRK just for that 4K shield on other people.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Something I noticed last night, playing DRK again for the 1st time in forever, I noticed I tend to hit DA right before the 2nd hit of my combo, to avoid clipping issues, so this may have been done intentionally as a means to remove DAs if you prep it early, rather than right as you do the attack.

PLUS early in the fight might be near full MP, so hitting it BEFORE syphon would allow me to have spent less over all for a DA. So I'd wager its a small addition to actually punish you from trying to make it easier on yourself.

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I too wonder why Syphon Strike has a DA boost. It isn't for leveling prior to 38, as you dont get DA until the 40s.
Most people played by always having DA ready to go before yous tarted your combo. THis removes that.

I swear they are trying to make tank jobs into DPS roles..by putting all those essential/important utilities and mitigation skills into the role action list and forcing players to pick only 5..what were they thinking?

From level 10-20 you only get 1 mitigation skill ONE!

I really can't imagine tanking in low level dungeon with only ONE mitigation skill.
RIP low level dungeons?

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

Dark Dance: REMOVED ~> new role skill add 30% parry. so we lost 20% Evasion when with DA+DD. This sucks so much.

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I'll admit that I'll be missing the DA+DD Evasion as Dark Knight during trash mobs in speed runs (really sweet with DA + DP btw).

That said, I like most of what I see in Dark Knight so far overall.

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

I swear they are trying to make tank jobs into DPS roles..by putting all those essential/important utilities and mitigation skills into the role action list and forcing players to pick only 5..what were they thinking?

From level 10-20 you only get 1 mitigation skill ONE!

I really can't imagine tanking in low level dungeon with only ONE mitigation skill.
RIP low level dungeons?

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Huh? Did anyone ever really consider Convalescence a mitigation tool below the levels when regens show up? Besides that though, in terms of actual mitigation, most tanks have one reliable cooldown until their mid-40s. Warrior is an exception, with Inner Beast being level 35. Paladins get Sentinel at 38. Warriors and Dark Knights get Vengeance and Shadow Wall at 46, respectfully. From there, things just tack on, but until almost 40 there's just one reliable form of mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I too wonder why Syphon Strike has a DA boost. It isn't for leveling prior to 38, as you dont get DA until the 40s.
Most people played by always having DA ready to go before yous tarted your combo. THis removes that.

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Burst. You can now HS -> DA -> SS -> DA -> SE.

You are also not losing any potency no matter which attack gets the Dark Arts. The only loss DAing a Syphon Strike instead of a Soul Eater is 140 potency worth of healing when in Grit.

SS -> DA+SS is a 140 gain
SE -> DA+SE is a 140 gain
DP -> DA+DP is a 90 gain per target with a base potency per target equal to roughly the standard gain from DA. On 2+ targets a DA+DP is a DpS gain for the same MP spent on 2 other DA actions (280 potency vs 480 +240 each additional target).

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

Huh? Did anyone ever really consider Convalescence a mitigation tool below the levels when regens show up? Besides that though, in terms of actual mitigation, most tanks have one reliable cooldown until their mid-40s. Warrior is an exception, with Inner Beast being level 35. Paladins get Sentinel at 38. Warriors and Dark Knights get Vengeance and Shadow Wall at 46, respectfully. From there, things just tack on, but until almost 40 there's just one reliable form of mitigation.

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I dont know about u but im tryin to pull the whole room in low level dungeons so i like to have three , having foresight conv and shadow wall or rampart was enough for me to do that now we get nerfed and will have only two, I think its total bs that we really only have one clear choice for mitigation below level 40

is one move really gona replace , one combo, lowblow, rephrasal, and scourge

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Burst. You can now HS -> DA -> SS -> DA -> SE.

You are also not losing any potency no matter which attack gets the Dark Arts. The only loss DAing a Syphon Strike instead of a Soul Eater is 140 potency worth of healing when in Grit.

SS -> DA+SS is a 140 gain
SE -> DA+SE is a 140 gain
DP -> DA+DP is a 90 gain per target with a base potency per target equal to roughly the standard gain from DA. On 2+ targets a DA+DP is a DpS gain for the same MP spent on 2 other DA actions (280 potency vs 480 +240 each additional target).

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I thought about that, but wonder if the MP will ever be there.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I thought about that, but wonder if the MP will ever be there.

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No more MP drain, using Carve and Spit for Mp generation rather than DAing it, MP every 2 min from Delirium, and ~45%/~51% uptime on Blood Weapon/Blood Price may give you far more MP than you think.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

No more MP drain, using Carve and Spit for Mp generation rather than DAing it, MP every 2 min from Delirium, and ~45%/~51% uptime on Blood Weapon/Blood Price may give you far more MP than you think.

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Why would I not DA CnS?

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

Huh? Did anyone ever really consider Convalescence a mitigation tool below the levels when regens show up? Besides that though, in terms of actual mitigation, most tanks have one reliable cooldown until their mid-40s. Warrior is an exception, with Inner Beast being level 35. Paladins get Sentinel at 38. Warriors and Dark Knights get Vengeance and Shadow Wall at 46, respectfully. From there, things just tack on, but until almost 40 there's just one reliable form of mitigation.

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Convalescence might not be a good mitigation ability but at least it helps the healers to heal us better. Usually tank players would have foresight, rampart(shadow skin)and bloodbath to utilize till their mid-40s but now smh..

Another issue is why are they giving us skills that does not reduce inc dmg or puts a debuff on mobs/boss instead we are just given big dps damage and thats all. Are we DPS now?
Aren't we suppose to tank and mitigate as much as possible as a tank or am i been playing tank wrong for past 3 years?

..while simultaneously nerfing Tank damage through forced VIT accessory and refocus on STR as attack scaling variable. Also nerf-batting the self-sustain of WAR.

I don't think they have a desired balance or meta in mind, they just want to play pin-ball with meta to keep us guessing and 'looking forward to it'.

If the raids permit, we're going back to solo-tank regardless of whatever relative DPS/utility balance they find.

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Originally Posted by Falar

Why would I not DA CnS?

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getting MP back for abyssal drain spam. also setup for panic DA/DM during progression. it gives decent mp on its cd, but if you have the mp to da it you should.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

..while simultaneously nerfing Tank damage through forced VIT accessory and refocus on STR as attack scaling variable. Also nerf-batting the self-sustain of WAR.

I don't think they have a desired balance or meta in mind, they just want to play pin-ball with meta to keep us guessing and 'looking forward to it'.

If the raids permit, we're going back to solo-tank regardless of whatever relative DPS/utility balance they find.

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knowing SE, i doubt they will.