New Class Idea

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Originally Posted by Myvar

But... Botanists already use scythes.

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They also use axes. Should Warriors be worried? :p
(Yeah, I know. A botanist's hatchet is quite a ways removed from a battle axe. I just thought it seemed funny.)

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

"Ma" in this context most certainly implies darkness in the sense of dark equating to evil/negative. The character for "ma" conveys a dark/evil spirit or force, often associated with curses in the way that a person or object can be beset or imbued with a dark spirit or force. It is not conceptually synonymous with magic as you state.

"Mahou" can be flavored good or evil because just like its closest English translation, magic or mystical/supernatural abilities, it is general and does not have an implied good/bad/light/dark affinity like "ma" does. Saying that it can easily be taken as "evil force" or "demon magic" is a big stretch.

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"Ma" can in some cases involve an evil or negative connotation and in other cases not. This is because, although its closest English equivalent is usually considered to be "devil" or "demon", the spirits of Japanese folklore and legends don't match those of the west. While Japanese demons are frequently harmful, they aren't inherently evil in the way that the demons of western religions and folklore are. But as supernatural beings, they are inherently magical, which is why "mahou" a compound formed of "demon-act" simply means magic, with neither a good nor bad connotation to it. (If you want to indicate in Japanese a demon that's actively evil, you can specify that separately, like with "akuma" a compound of "evil-demon".)

It seems a bit inconsistent that you'd claim "ma" gives an evil/negative connotation when it's used as part of a word, and then point out yourself that "mahou", which itself starts with that same "ma", doesn't have any such connotation. It seems like a better fit to regard the "ma" in "makenshi" as having about the same connotation that it has in "mahou" in referring just to magical power.

I'd rather have some kind of a job using dark magic, not like black mage but something like majin/occultist in the directions of a necromancer - i feel something in that direction is missing in this game:eek:...

But i also see why people could see a too big resemblance to the black mage

https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets...jpg?1470196652

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Originally Posted by Fukuro

I'd rather have some kind of a job using dark magic, not like black mage but something like majin/occultist in the directions of a necromancer - i feel something in that direction is missing in this game:eek:...

But i also see why people could see a too big resemblance to the black mage

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That's because Black Mage is the dark magic user. Black Mage is the occultist. It just requires reading the text in those cutscenes to know.

The only reason why we haven't gone further toward the macabre as far as jobs go is really because of how much it would likely clash with the overall lore Black Mage already has.

Me, i would like a job like assassin but too close of ninja i guess. it make me think half nin and half monk.

Re: First dark knight in series.

I'm 99% sure that Final Fantasy 2 had Leon who was called a dark knight. I don't know what the original Japanese version called him, though. He starts with a one handed sword, but his ultimate weapon is a spear. The game didn't have defined roles, but his stats were very high in hp, mp, strength and intelligence, making him a good damage dealer both physically and magically.

Well we got 2 dps classes in 4.0 so a reaper kind of class would not be till 6.0 if its a DPS. Thats a long ways away.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Well we got 2 dps classes in 4.0 so a reaper kind of class would not be till 6.0 if its a DPS. Thats a long ways away.

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Claiming that 5.0 won't have a new dps class because 4.0 had 2 is a pretty big leap of logic to make.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Dark Knights use Scythes, and if I recall it was asked if we could get one already. I believe Yoshi-P or one of the lead designers said if people want it he'll do it.

......no one followed up on it...

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Dark Knights uses scythes only in FFXI, and no other FF.

Well now we got 2 dps with sword so..

There is no real pet class and reworking the summoner into one, which is not a pet class through ff lore, is stupid. So puppetmaster or beast master would be nice for the game i thik

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Claiming that 5.0 won't have a new dps class because 4.0 had 2 is a pretty big leap of logic to make.

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Its not necessarily logic but for 3.0 we did see a tank and a healer released. Following a pattern has some logic in it? Think about this for a second, if a new tank and a dps were introduced, healers will have gotten shafted again. If a new dps and a new healer is introduced, tanks will have gotten shafted again. There is the small chance they could do a 3rd class somewhere in there but really I coulda sworn there was a dev response that it was too stressful on the team.

Maybe like botanist dealing with nature maybe Geomancer might be perfect for a great scythe class as a dps melee caster. Using aura like spells dealing damage.

What I think about scythes in this game:

The only time I've seen one, at least in FF XIV, being effectively used as a weapon, had it in the hands of a Necromancer.

What am I suggesting?

Having played FF XIV for about two months now, I can't say anything as an "expert FFXIV Player", but I've seen other games of the franchise and I've seen Necromancers here an there.

Necromancer was even meant to be a class to FF XI - they just discarded it to give birth to Puppetmasters.

Necromancers, at least in FF XIV, have a lore that goes stray from the common Black Magick line of though. While Black Mages were mostly users of void magick - which would be something like occultism in our world - Necromancers would be, in fact, twisted White Mages in being.

How so?

As you go through the lore, you face a handful of effectively important Necromancers (aside from your everyday cultist lunatic). One of them even use a scythe as a weapon, even though it's barely used to melee swipe someone, rather being used to focus a grim white cast.

The other one practically twists the white elements in order to manipulate the flux of life into things that shouldn't be really alive anymore.

What then?

Differently from your everyday Black Magick, Necromancers in FF XIV are quite a warped thing, and could fit easily as a support class (damage conversion mechanic). They could use scythes (as some sort of warped staff) as their main weapon, even without the need of ever using it to swipe anything on range, it's thematic, and completely clean design imo.

Other than that, my narrow creativity can't really imagine any other classes wielding scythes as effective weapons.

If you want darkness, have a DRK.
If you want black magick, have a BLM.

If you want plain madness, add NCR to the game.

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Originally Posted by Elexander

Necromancers, at least in FF XIV, have a lore that goes stray from the common Black Magick line of though. While Black Mages were mostly users of void magick - which would be something like occultism in our world - Necromancers would be, in fact, twisted White Mages in being.

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Look up Mhach. That's where both Black Mages and the concept of Necromancers come from. Yes, White Magic is found in creation of animations, but of constructs rather than corpses. If anything, Puppetmaster would be closer to White Mages in FFXIV than Necromancer would.

Other than that lore bit, at least the proposed mechanic premise is something.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Its not necessarily logic but for 3.0 we did see a tank and a healer released.

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Um...For 3.0 we had tank, healer and DPS released...Dark Knight, Astrologian and Machinist...The reason why they released only DPS in Stormblood and why two have zero to do with patterns.
1) They came to the conclusion that adding more tanks or healers won't make more players play one of these roles.
2) Adding more healer or tank jobs would make it harder to fix them, which they wanted to focus on for now.
3) They have been so busy with the overhaul and other content that they shafted a new job instead of doing half-assed work in another field.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Um...For 3.0 we had tank, healer and DPS released...Dark Knight, Astrologian and Machinist...The reason why they released only DPS in Stormblood and why two have zero to do with patterns.
1) They came to the conclusion that adding more tanks or healers won't make more players play one of these roles.
2) Adding more healer or tank jobs would make it harder to fix them, which they wanted to focus on for now.
3) They have been so busy with the overhaul and other content that they shafted a new job instead of doing half-assed work in another field.

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Are we basing these off guesswork or are we basing these off developer comments cause I know for a fact I remember reading that releasing 3 classes in an expansion was too much dev strain and they likely wont do it again.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

(...)doesn't work due to the fact that it was never used historically as a weapon of war(...)

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Actually, this is not entirely true. For two reasons.
1) Scythes were used in wars as tools that are...well...deadly. By those that had them and didn't have means of getting any decent weapon. Uprisings etc. used normal scythes which were no less deadly than any other weapon out there. Drawbacks were there, but fighting with a scythe still gave a farmer much higher chance of victory against a sword user than just about anything else they could have. Heck, that farmer had better chance than the sword-using guy!
2) War-scythes were "evolved" from normal scythes, and in fact, very many of the scythes used were in fact remodeled tools. Hence those scythes were technically used in war one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

There were war scythes, but those were closer to some polearms you'd see on Dragoon.

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I hope you do know that a scythe, even the farming tool version of it, when used in combat, IS a polearm. A polearm is basically every single weapon that uses a long shaft to hold. Yes, even if that shaft is the weapon itself, like quarter-staff. That means that both conjurers and black mages also use polearms. Hence this is little reason to dismiss it. Dragoons use polearms that are dominantly piercing (though there are halberds etc, which are both piercing and slashing), but scythes are dominantly slashing (heck, most of them are only slashing). And even for those that have spikes, they can't exactly be "thrown" in any way, shape or form. Not effectively anyway (yes, yes...I know halberds aren't ideal javelins either...). So scythe user could very well be reasonable.

Still, I prefer some more details to suggestions like that. Saying that you would love it and that it could have this or that is just not a suggestion. It's more of a plea. Is that fine?! Most certainly. But it's just different than what the thread starter is making it to be.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Are we basing these off guesswork or are we basing these off developer comments cause I know for a fact I remember reading that releasing 3 classes in an expansion was too much dev strain and they likely wont do it again.

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Eh...Yeah, that's pretty much what I said...They shafted the third job cause they relocated the resources to a different field...I just limited it to Stormblood, not expanding it to further expansions.

And points 1 and 2 are the reasons for why there are only DPS jobs...Those were in the very same interview in which the reason for two instead of three was given.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Actually, this is not entirely true.

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Does this look like a farming implement to you?

http://medieval.stormthecastle.com/i...war-scythe.jpg

Heck, if it wasn't for the text saying it was a war scythe, you'd think it didn't even come from a farming tool. That's what I meant when I said that: farming scythes were never used as weapons of war. Once they became modified for war, they were no longer suitable as farming implements compared to scythes that were still made for that purpose. Yes, some weapons evolved from farming tools, that doesn't mean they're the exact same thing with the exact same functions.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I hope you do know that a scythe, even the farming tool version of it, when used in combat, IS a polearm.

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....except again, farming scythes were NEVER used in combat, hence why they were modified to something more practical, more specifically against the cavalry units most likely to be found terrorizing rural areas. Also by your definition, BLM and WHM staves are also polearms, which is why the game specifically describes polearms as shafted weapons with a metal point that is usually bladed or has one or more blade for non-thrusting strikes. With that in-game definition, war scythes would be considered polearms and would be most likely be given as a DRG weapon.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Are we basing these off guesswork or are we basing these off developer comments cause I know for a fact I remember reading that releasing 3 classes in an expansion was too much dev strain and they likely wont do it again.

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It was actually four jobs since they started work on the Heavensward jobs while Ninja was still being made and finished up. Hopefully this time around, it means better quality off the bat compared to the Heavensward jobs.

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

I would play a reaper class if the scythes we're like Deaths Scythe in Dante's Inferno. Historical accuracy be damned, I would eat that shit up.

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this would be great haha and they could incorporate a life steal factor to this class for better soloing haha

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

That's what I meant when I said that: farming scythes were never used as weapons of war.

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But it would be more accurate to say that professionally trained and equipped soldiers didn't use farming scythes as their weapon. Farmers, on the other hand, certainly did use farming scythes, as well as pitchforks or whatever other tools they had at hand, as weapons of war. Wars don't generally stay neatly contained to a battlefield where only soldiers are at risk.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

....except again, farming scythes were NEVER used in combat, hence why they were modified to something more practical, more specifically against the cavalry units most likely to be found terrorizing rural areas.

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The other way around. The reason why they were modified to be more practical in combat is because they were being used for combat (which their original form wasn't particularly well suited to, hence the modifications). If the originals were only being used for farming, there would have been no reason for such modifications to them. It was people who had to fight wars with farming tools as their only weapons who worked out how to turn those tools into more effective weapons.

War Scythes were hardly 'scythes'. Look at the angle. It's more like an awkward halberd. If anything that would be a new skin for a DRG weapon, as you can slash or poke with it. They were technically polearms/poleaxes.

First, as a Dark Knight from FFXI days i'm am quite glad FFXIV gave me a Greatsword over a Scythe as i feel it suits the Knight theme much better. However i also feel that in a magical setting the idea that a weapon should not be used due to limitations of our real world physics seems silly as an argument(Lala frontline fighters, books being used as weapons, we can breathe under water, and uh...magic...). There have been plenty of other IP that have explored much more fanciful weapons. I hope one day see a Sword whip, Scythe, Gunblades, Double Voulge, Shield and Lace, even a paired set of Scimitars (looking at you Blue Mage). The continued growth of this game demands that we not limit ourselves.


Soul Calibur series Zasalamael Scythe use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLg88PmoNe0