Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

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Originally Posted by Vidu

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And this is why one has the party finder. If they added this to the party finder no harm no foul. But the raid finder like the duty should be open to everyone. Not a tool for others to avoid new clears. I mean folks are already are using the new clears are lazy form a party finder group then here in your own post you detail why some players don't /can't.

Let's be honest here this is simply a form a of elitism. I have seen just as many new clears perform equally or better than the already cleared. However, people would rather talk down to a new clear or bad mouth them all together than actually see if they are any good. Now I'm not accusing anyone of being an elitist jerk please don't take it that way. just in the automated finder meant for everyone having the ability to lock a subset of players out is in fact elitism.

And for all the people posting what about my time!? It is important! I just want you step back and realize everyone's time is important. Period. This argument is ridiculous. I'm a nurse. I work very long hours. Does this mean my time is more important that someone who works 8hrs a day? When I can easily pull 12hrs a day? So unless we are going to start giving out ratings to players based on what is going on in their non game life the time argument needs to stop.

Raid finder was (probably) meant to help less populated servers by allowing them to queue to raids and ex trials with players from other servers (they were introduced before cross server PF), and it was kinda successful, many of my friends got their first clears via RF in midas and creator savage. I never got a first clear via RF but I've farmed a5s-a7s and a9s-a12s using it. The separation by early/late phase practice, aim to clear and farm (weekly clear) is imo necessary because of the difficulty (it's very unlikely that you can teach someone who's learning the first phase to be able to execute the whole fight in a single lockout of 90 minutes) and weekly loot restriction (completion queue makes sure all 8 people in the group have not cleared for that week).

Um, this might be a stupid question, but is there any reason not to have both? Move it to DF, but leave content in RF too so the leader can just pick where to queue? Or even better, just add an extra checkbox to DF and avoid the extra layer of complication entirely?

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Originally Posted by Feidam

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Sure we can call it elitism, but we wouldn't be honest about doing so--we would be using a false definition of elitism. There is nothing wrong with grouping players differently based on their goals. People who want to farm should not be forced into the same queue as people who want to learn, and people who want to learn shouldn't be pushed along by players who want to get in and get out just to get back in again. Look at MSQ Roulette: people HATE getting dragged along through a fight/dungeon at hyper speeds and not learning anything interesting just because everyone else already knows it. and as has been said PF should be for learning where DF is for farming anyway.

I'm also glad you work long hours and can pull 12 hours a day still somehow (when do you sleep?). People who have that much time can *EASILY* learn the extreme fights with others who want to learn. Can't find any? Make your own! If you already have cleared it and/or farmed it to your heart's content, use your amazing 12 hours a day alongside nursing to host teaching parties, where you gather a group of people who have cleared for the specific purpose of teaching new people how to clear the content!

But don't look down on your peers and sneer at them, pretending they're sneering at what you consider their lowers because they aren't omnibenevolent players who have 12 hours a day to waste away and want to get specific things done--including farming fights that they themselves bled, sweated, and cried learning among peers who did likewise alongside them.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

Um, this might be a stupid question, but is there any reason not to have both? Move it to DF, but leave content in RF too so the leader can just pick where to queue? Or even better, just add an extra checkbox to DF and avoid the extra layer of complication entirely?

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I was wondering as well when i rode that thread today.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

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Umm I didn't say I worked long hours then played 12 hours. I used my job as a point to those who use the but my time is important argument. I was trying to point out that everyone's time is equally important. I also wasn't sneering at anyone or looking down on them. However, if you can not see how exclusion is an elitist practice there is not much to continue to talk about. Also, as to your letting like minded people group together I am all for that. Use the party finder. The automated raid finder should not have the ability to exclude people beyond the fact they do not meet the required gear score.

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Originally Posted by Nalfein

I was wondering as well when i rode that thread today.

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This could work too.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

The automated raid finder should not have the ability to exclude people beyond the fact they do not meet the required gear score.

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Why though? It's simpler and most likely faster than having to make a PF, wait for people to join, and in the end you still have to open DF/RF and queue. I see it as a QOL feature for quick farm.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Use the party finder. The automated raid finder should not have the ability to exclude people beyond the fact they do not meet the required gear score.

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I apologize for misunderstanding your example. However I stand by party finder being a far better tool for learning than DF ever will be, as described by some people in the page 4 on the default comments per page format. It's easier to get people in voice, or coordinated specifically to learn in PF, while in DF you're paired with random people and not guaranteed anything.

If everyone in the df knows what they're doing and are there for a farm, then little to no communication is required. Everyone's in, does their role and follows mechanics, and is out. Just like DF dungeons.

Like I said, discrimination is not bad. It's not a bad thing to filter out players based on end goals. This is also for the people wanting to learn too. MSQ Roulette is a shining example of people who want to learn getting their experience ruined by veterans rushing the content because of their "get in get rewarded get out" mentality. Though I'll respect your position and agree to disagree, but that really is center to this whole conversation.

I don't know why some people talked about discrimination.

When we want to farm, we're expecting people to know the strategy, of course, cause we want some weapons or mount.
Why would players waste time make newbie learn again and again and never get clears?

(If I want to help new player, i'll go in a practise pf and tell them that i'm here to help)

Before farming it, these same players went in practise pf and such.
You go with people that are sharing the same goal as you, that is all...

It's simple to understand and totally logical.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Why though? It's simpler and most likely faster than having to make a PF, wait for people to join, and in the end you still have to open DF/RF and queue. I see it as a QOL feature for quick farm.

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Exactly.nice simple easy fast way to do "X". Unless you have not cleared. Then good luck getting anything to pop. That's the point. It should be equal time for any person utilizing the raid finder.

Extreme primals are all I really do now days personally. So it really doesn't matter much to my play time. I however am not blind to others plight trying to do said content because they didn't play or were not able to the content the first week it was launched.

By the way, someone said that we don't really care or something cause Stormblood will come soon.
But the thing is... we're not in Stormblood yet.

So adding Extreme to the duty finder, i'm for it, there's no problem, but not now.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Exactly.nice simple easy fast way to do "X". Unless you have not cleared. Then good luck getting anything to pop. That's the point. It should be equal time for any person utilizing the raid finder.

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It's also not fair that tanks queue faster than dps. It should be equal for any person utilizing the duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Extreme primals are all I really do now days personally.

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Why not spend your time in party finder joining clear parties or making teaching parties then? You'd be killing two birds with one stone: doing your primals *and* helping the next generation needing their clear get through the EX primal.

Because sometimes, it's doesn't really help those people actually.
And I have a perfect example for this.

One day, we were 4 people (me as a healer) who helped a "kill party".
It was on Sophia EX. The other healer spend 90% of the fight dead. I had to raise her all the time and heal alone.
She got her clear, but doesn't mean she knows the fight since she was failing every mecanics even with explanation.
And sometimes, people who got their clears think that because they have it, they are able to farm while they can't.

+depending on everyone's playtime and schedule, some people don't want to help others because they don't have the time to. If they managed to farm for themselves it's great for them...
Keep that in mind when we are talking about "please stop making people waste time". Wiping again and again when they are trying to get a rare mount... this is selfish to always defend the new players side without trying to understand why the others are reacting like that

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Originally Posted by Serilda

Um, this might be a stupid question, but is there any reason not to have both? Move it to DF, but leave content in RF too so the leader can just pick where to queue? Or even better, just add an extra checkbox to DF and avoid the extra layer of complication entirely?

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It's not a stupid question. That redundancy would be redundant, though.



I agree with Talrein's exclusion points. People who are queuing up without a full party should not get to be allowed to exclude people from their match-ups. Inclusiveness is the primary feature of the duty finder system.

But we should also understand that when someone forms a full party with a specific goal, it's obnoxious for people to join party without meeting the expectations of that full party.


Really, despite what people think they need, what they should be asking for is for the DF window to tell them if anyone in the party is new. It could display in the Reward area of the DF window, similar to the Adventurer in Need bonus.

What we really need is this:
http://i.imgur.com/JT5NLRV.png



Raid finder is an unnecessary addition, given that we have a richly featured Party Finder. Raid Finder's primary feature, the ability to exclude people who have not cleared content, is not enough to warrant an entirely separate interface for it.

We should just abolish the raid finder altogether, and add a simple indicator to the Duty Finder window that shows that someone in the party hasn't cleared the content.

With this in place, people who wanted to run with no preference could still DF it with randoms, while people who want to farm can form a full party via Party Finder, then easily see, before queuing, if all party members meet the expectation of having previously cleared.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Because sometimes, it's doesn't really help those people actually.
And I have a perfect example for this.

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That's true enough. Unfortunately it's difficult to control for that no matter the method of clearing. I personally (read: don't hold anyone else to this) don't join any farm parties until I have two or three clears under my belt to control for fluke wins.

It's nice to read that.

I wish more people would think the same. I'm just like you. Before farming, I want to be sure to understand every mecanics.
Because well, if I want to farm it I don't want my party to wipe... especially because I'm a healer.
But doesn't mean that a dps shouldn't care because Extreme have an enrage timer, so we don't have all the time we want

Why do we need the raid finder? Just add the options from raid finder to DF/PF, select your requirements and call it a day. RF was only needed prior to cross server PF. We don't need all extra systems that are not being used. After cross server PF, RF was dead unless you already had a full party.

Well, this isn't Raid Finder itself but indeed the function to select the "cleared" option.
Because well, i'm not the only one who met a guy who came on a "farm party" with a bonus and don't know the fight, leading the party to disband because it's a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I still have yet to clear extremes because learning parties never happen

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Primal:

http://i.imgur.com/iCmmCfI.png
http://i.imgur.com/bgRV8FR.png

Aether

http://i.imgur.com/DY2Ba5i.png
http://i.imgur.com/buIIZvB.png

We all can open PF any time and see whether you're telling the truth or not, note right not it's not even NA prime, these parties will double in a matter of an hour or two. Another thing many of you don't notice is in those clear parties like half the team usually has the clear already, there are many people who join clear or learning parties out of boredom.

If your parties aren't filling either A) there's another up and you didn't notice, or B) you're doing it during an odd hour in your data center.

Seriously, use PF, you aren't gonna learn anything through DF if every time you queue you're back to square one.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Exactly.nice simple easy fast way to do "X". Unless you have not cleared. Then good luck getting anything to pop. That's the point. It should be equal time for any person utilizing the raid finder.

Extreme primals are all I really do now days personally. So it really doesn't matter much to my play time. I however am not blind to others plight trying to do said content because they didn't play or were not able to the content the first week it was launched.

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I've explained in a previous post, practice and farm queues won't work together for some fights. Maybe you can carry some newbies through sophia or zurvan, but I really doubt it's even possible to clear something like thordan, a6s, a7s, a11s, a12s in 90 minutes while teaching/carrying a newbie who's new to the fight, even when they're at/above the ilv requirements. I think at least for current contents the clear and practice queues should be separated. If you combine those queues together some contents will quite literally be impossible to clear via DF/RF, which isn't exactly better than having two separate, slower queues which may take very long to pop.

Back in 3.1 it took me over a month to clear thordan ex, so it's not like I don't understand how it feels to be left behind. I sometimes help people in practice or aim to clear parties as well, either premade groups with fc/ls friends or randomly joining PF, but when I do, I keep in mind that there's a pretty good chance I won't clear the fight. When I want to farm for gear/birds/whatever of course I wouldn't want to be grouped with people who are still practicing early phases, or aren't consistent enough to execute the mechanics to clear. It's not a matter of clearing slower, it's a matter of actually clearing vs not. If there's only a single RF queue for those harder fights it'll be pretty much useless since you won't clear it there. It'll be an unofficial "first phase practice queue" so people who want to farm won't use it anyway. Heck, even with a completed queue some of the harder fights were still a challenge to clear, where groups disband after 2-3 pulls and you just requeue. There are contents where you can teach and carry newbies, and there are contents where you can't.

This is problem with the community itself.
People who think that, those who have already cleared thing should dedicate all their time and energy to be nice to them and teach them everything while those same people already learned a long time ago by themselves.

You can't expect everyone to have the time and will to do that and should consider that, you'll have to meet people that are sharing the same goal as you.

There are times when you can help if you feel you want it, there's a time when you also do things for yourself and expect the others to understand that they don't have the same experience as you so they can't join...
And there is nothing toxic ou discriminating in that.

We all have differents experiences, goals and expectation.

That's why pf exists on which you can put a description to let player know what you exactly want to do in the duty.
The day things will get better is the day when people will actually respect what is asked in the description.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Primal:

http://i.imgur.com/iCmmCfI.png
http://i.imgur.com/bgRV8FR.png

Aether

http://i.imgur.com/DY2Ba5i.png
http://i.imgur.com/buIIZvB.png

We all can open PF any time and see whether you're telling the truth or not, note right not it's not even NA prime, these parties will double in a matter of an hour or two. Another thing many of you don't notice is in those clear parties like half the team usually has the clear already, there are many people who join clear or learning parties out of boredom.

If your parties aren't filling either A) there's another up and you didn't notice, or B) you're doing it during an odd hour in your data center.

Seriously, use PF, you aren't gonna learn anything through DF if every time you queue you're back to square one.

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I literally opened it up today and saw it either say "Farm, no new scrubs" or "WT"

Also, it has to do with how people learn too. Note that most say, "Please know the fight," but I can't learn from YouTube. As for why my party making attempts failed, I didn't know mid day on a weekend was a poor time. I'm also looking at some of the Ilvl requirements listed, which are above the normal amount ways (260 request for 250 content. 250 request for 235 content.) So some already don't like PF's Item level request.

Lastly, clear doesn't mean learning. You marked some clears, which are not learning. I was denied from clears for not doing the fight before, because by clear, they meant they just wanted to kill it once, not have people learn the fight.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

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Send screenshots? Preferably outlined just like she did, catches the eye better.

Also of those 10 highlighted results, only 2 have 'know the fight' and a third only partially meeting that criteria with a "Please know up to x phase" in their immediate description. So 20, 30% of that sample size is not "most". "Some" is a much better descriptor.

EDIT: ABOUT PF iLV:

I see NONE 5 times out of that sample size of ten. So 50% defy you.
I see 260, 260, and 255 for Zurvex. Not outlandish, really.
220 for Nidex, again not outlandish. I'm not online so I can't say but I think that's min iLv or close to it.
I see 250 for Sophex. Maybe a bit high but Sophex gives 255 weapons so again, not outlandish. Can be done with weaker equips.

So of those ten, the closest I'd give you is between one and three-because 260 is high for the Zurv and 250 is high for Sophie. But the rewards for those fights (265 and 255 weapons) are still above those requirements, so it's not freakishly overdoing it.
--END EDIT

Lastly yes, clear parties are not learning parties and I'm glad you differentiate between the two. However a clear party is related in that it usually means learning later stages of the fight, and are meant also for people who don't have clears, but have been in so many learning parties their brains are spilling out of their ears and they just want that one clear at last.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

And for all the people posting what about my time!? It is important! I just want you step back and realize everyone's time is important.

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Yes, everyones time is important. I am fully aware of that and I never said anything else. Thats is excatly why I want this feature - because without it, the time of a person who has no idea about the fight is worth more than the time of a person who knows the fight very well and wants to farm it. I'd like to remind you that this is a game that we're all playing for some sort of entertainment in our more or less limited freetime. If I want to farm an EX-primal and I have one hour of freetime before my real life duties are calling me again, I can get 5-6 clear, clean kills of Sophia into that timeframe. That means: When I do the fight with people who know what they're doing. Using the RF back then allowed me to do excatly that - the DF doesnt. In my one hour of freetime I might not even get close to a kill with people who dont know what they're doing.

Saying you're okay with people making farm parties (and excluding people from them, obviously) is okay, but people asking for the game to auto-match them with farm-like-parties is not okay? We got all those tools - DF aswell as PF - to make it easier to find groups to do the content we want to do. RF just allows you to do the content a certain way, in a sense and to put that filter there.
No one here plays this game because they're employeed as social worker - I think its safe to assume that everyone plays for their enjoyment, why not give us the tools to make sure we can create the best experience possible for us?

I am all for helping people - infact I just spend 90 minutes with a bunch of people, to get them their Sophia EX clear. 6 people got their kills, one of them only spoke german (and therefore didnt understood the guide they had looked at), for most of them it was the first time. Do I regret that I spend those 90 minutes with them? Hell no, it was a lot of fun! Do I feel that I wasted my time? Nope, I knew what I was getting myself into and I wanted to help, all cool. I also had the time, obviously-

But! Thats not always the case. So... why shouldnt I use the DF to get what I want - fast, quick kills - but someone, who just wants to see the fight and wipe a bit in phase one, can?

And then people wonder why Yoshida doesn't wants to add more hardcore content.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Does anyone actually do this? I don't use the raid finder, but all the anecdotal evidence I've seen says no.

Also it's kind of alarming how casually people in this thread dismiss the unwashed masses. God forbid we should have to teach someone. Surely the party finder is a separate but equal method for those poor souls. :rolleyes:

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sadly, 99% of time you will never able to queue a full party for "Not yet clear"
i try it few times and never able to queue anything
while i start my own practice group with PF I can usually get a full party less than 30min

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Literally the function of that checkbox is to make it so certain people won't be able to join your party. That's the definition of exclusion.

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If you insist on 'no bonus' in a farm group and the message pops up, the party gets disbanded or if you can figure the person out, kick/blacklist.
That is how it always was and now it'll be just the same.

Same if you insist on a specific class and people change it and won't change back or if you insist on a specific ilvl and the person cheats with wrong right side gear.

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Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

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Then they should open up a practice or kill party on their own or just join one?
It's not hard to find people, me and my fc mates 'only' join kill groups (wouldn't join a farm with all those carried people out there D: ).

People exclude anyway. If I open up a private party only enabeling friends with pw to join isn't that 'excluding', too?
Is insisting on a melee if you ended up with 3 ranged already not excluding?

My group, my rules. Proof: I can kick people out of it without giving a reason.


Why not get rid of party finder at all? Giving people control about who is able to join or stay in their group only leads to exclusion.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Raid finder is an unnecessary addition, given that we have a richly featured Party Finder. Raid Finder's primary feature, the ability to exclude people who have not cleared content, is not enough to warrant an entirely separate interface for it.

We should just abolish the raid finder altogether, and add a simple indicator to the Duty Finder window that shows that someone in the party hasn't cleared the content.

With this in place, people who wanted to run with no preference could still DF it with randoms, while people who want to farm can form a full party via Party Finder, then easily see, before queuing, if all party members meet the expectation of having previously cleared.

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Raid finder is necessary it was added for the specific purpose of increasing success rates. before raid finder was added it was impossible to get clears in thordan / seph or nidhogg ex. success rates were incredibly low. which is a big part of why the raid finder was added.

after the raid finder was added success clears of content went up a lot. many people farmed a lot of primal stuff from Sophia in raid finder... I even got my first zurvan clear in raid finder and nidhog as I said earlier.
I know quite a few people that cleared the whole of creator savage using raid finder cos they had no time for statics or anything was just queue and go...

if you aboilish the raid finder and add that indicator to the duty finder that says someone in your party hasn't cleared this. are you going to give people the option to withdraw from that duty without penalty if that indicator comes up.. maybe they joined to farm a couple of quick wins or are you going to basically hold them to ransom and force them to help you learn or eat a 30 minute penalty... (what happened to there time being as important as yours?)


the raid finder does not exclude anyone from content. it's addition was designed to make content more accessible than ever. (no time for a static to learn that fight hit raid finder and go) cleared that fight but no time to commit to a static to farm it. (hit raid finder and go)

it was designed to help players find parties that matched there abilities... if practice parties take longer to fill than farm parties that doesn't mean the farmers should have to help you out.

the people using party finder should be the people learning.. then you can create or join parties more fitting to your progress. have you seen broken seal or maybe even enrage.. then join a p3 learning / clear party..

first time join a p1 learning..

if you've seen enrage and looking to clear and then duty finder keeps putting you with people who can't even survive the first soar time and time again I'd bet you'd soon be getting just as frustrated as farmers get when a bonus tries to sneak in. because all you wanna do is finally get a win but every group you get can't even get close to your goal. how long does it take for your time to feel wasted?

Raid finder was a desert lol No one used it . Always over 30 min waiting and no one xD

I laugh at the PF clear party's. I joined plenty and most of them end in 2 wipes with a rage quite. It's always the guy that blames who leaves...but most of the time the blamer is the cause of the wipes.

Even with the option *cleared* there will always be leechers. A clear isnt a token that someone knows the fight. Personaly I have more kills with learning party's. Party's that created better players for those fights.

Clear or not. You just need to be lucky who you get in the party. There are plenty of leechers who cleared a fight and will never learn the fight. Those are in my eyes the worst.

When raid finder was put in the game there was no cross server PF. What it helped with was a chance to find a group in servers with smaller outside of static population. For content that wasn't yet in the DF. The options in the interface where attempting to offer similar restrictions that usually would be conversed about in PF group. However, as seen it wasn't a perfect tool for that. Now we have cross platform PF to fill the same need, for those without static to have larger pool of people to attempt to play with.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

if you aboilish the raid finder and add that indicator to the duty finder that says someone in your party hasn't cleared this. are you going to give people the option to withdraw from that duty without penalty if that indicator comes up.. maybe they joined to farm a couple of quick wins or are you going to basically hold them to ransom and force them to help you learn or eat a 30 minute penalty... (what happened to there time being as important as yours?)

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What are you on about? There's no penalty for declining participation in a full party. You're not making any sense.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

the raid finder does not exclude anyone from content.

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That's exactly what it's for. It specifically lets you say, "I do not want to play with anyone unless they've cleared this already." And that has always been the only feature of it that actually worked. Practice Phase 1, Practice Phase 2, and Duty Completion were never enforced, and people entering for the first time could choose the Duty Completion option and waste everyone's time.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

if practice parties take longer to fill than farm parties that doesn't mean the farmers should have to help you out.

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I said zero about forcing farmers to help people. I said, and you even included this quote in your reply,

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Originally Posted by Rongway

With this in place ... people who want to farm can form a full party via Party Finder, then easily see, before queuing, if all party members meet the expectation of having previously cleared. [emphasis added]

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You don't need a raid interface whose sole feature is a previous clear check. You just need the game tell you if anyone who is in your pre-formed party hasn't cleared the content, before you queue, so we can skip the part where you're pissed off because you entered the raid/trial and immediately disbanded because somebody didn't respect the party finder comment.

Splitting people between RF, PF and DF makes it harder for people to find a group. RF should go imo, and better functionalities added to DF and PF at the same time. Like the suggested ability to see the first timer bonus in the duty window before queuing. Or a tick-box which enforces previous completion like item levels are enforced. Or they could add a /bonus command for party leaders, which would echo back the names of those without a clear.

/bonus "The Howling Eye (Extreme)"
The following players have not yet cleared the duty:
Player One
Player Two

It's a pain to carry people everyday on PF.

Please SE mind this request.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

It isnt used to "discriminate" people who havent gotten the clear yet - it is used to ensure that people who know the fight

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You don't seem to know the proper meaning of 'discriminate' because this is a perfect example of it.

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

You don't seem to know the proper meaning of 'discriminate' because this is a perfect example of it.

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Discrimination comes into play in a situation where everyone applying should have an equal change for the task at hand based on their qualifications, but are not selected for a reason outside of said qualifications. An example of the discrimination would be when a female applicant with equal qualifications is not considered into a task where gender doesn't matter.

However, if a production is looking for an actor for a male role, it's not discrimination to not consider female applicants, it's simply common sense.

What I'm getting at, if the task at hand is to form a party of people who have already cleared the content for purpose of farming, it is not discrimination to exclude those who haven't yet done so, they simply are not meeting the qualifications to the task at hand.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

What are you on about? There's no penalty for declining participation in a full party. You're not making any sense..

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Yes there is. if a duty dings, and you click withdraw you get a strike. 3 of them and your locked out of duty finder for 30 minutes...

So under your suggestion and the image you linked when the duty finder makes a party and dings it would tell you if someone in that party is new.. so what I said was would you then allow people to withdraw without penalty... or would you force them to either eat the 30 minutes or help a newbie clear it even if they specifically joined the duty finder to farm...

once again the raid finder does not exclude anyone from content. the only thing it does it stop you joining a farm party if you have not cleared the fight. it does not stop you in any way from joining or creating a learning party or a clear party so you can still do the content... you are not excluded..

just because you can't join a farm party does not mean you cannot do the content at all.... it's common sense really because if people who had never cleared content were excluded from it how the hell would anyone ever get in that content in the first place...

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Originally Posted by Dzian

A lack of understanding of how the game works.

A lack of understanding of the suggestion.

A self contradiction.

An irrelevant comment that has nothing to do with anything that I said.

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Please read what I wrote and make sure you understand it before writing any more nonsensical replies. You're arguing with me over things I didn't say or you're arguing with yourself.



You're not penalized for declining duty participation if you're queued with a complete party. You're only penalized when you are matched with random people.

The image is of the duty finder window, not the queue window. The one that you have to look at before you queue. There would be opportunity for people to see it before confirming participation. Besides that, you're not penalized for declining duty participation if you're queued with a complete party. You're only penalized when you are matched with random people. If you're queued with a complete party, you're not penalized for declining duty participation.

You say the raid finder is not exclusionary, and then explain exactly how it's exclusionary.

The final statement is so absurd I don't even know where to begin. At no time did I say that new people should be able to join farm parties, nor that new people were suffering from not being able to join farm parties, nor that people making farm parties should have to accommodate new people. I very much did say that people who want to farm should get seven other farm-minded people together via party finder, and that a simple indicator should tell the party if everyone has cleared the content they're about to queue for. I also did say that the raid finder is unnecessary, because it is nothing more than a duty finder with an "I want to exclude new people" button. So just get rid of the raid finder and give people a simple indicator that tells you if everyone in your preformed party has cleared the content.

Im of two minds here and I think it really largely depends on the player at the end of the day. So thus far I hadnt done any hw extreme primals until the cross server party finder came out rf wasnt even working when this feature came into the game. So I was upset they wernt in the duty finder like the arr primals where when I first start doing them but, I listened to the people on the forums and I did make my own learning parties. So I cleared thordan, sep, and sophia, using the cross world party finder using learning parties it worked actually to get my clear. But heres where the problem is I did the same for zur and I can totally see why those whom want things back in raid finder want this.

You can get away with just average dps in these other fights in zur you will pretty much see way more mechanics if you are just learning the fight which could really discourage those whom want to help from helping. Ive tanked and healed and as a tank there is on reason that a tank should see demon claw in the first phase and in learning groups Id say Ive seen it every time almost thus making no progress. Ive even seen two soars in the first phase, with zur people are use to doing this fight a certain way seeing soar over and over again and getting no progress would really stagnate a farm party. So I get it now I see why its a wedge between the two ideas. I actually havent even gone into nidhog extreme yet but there are dps checks there to so could very well be the samething going on there but ill have to see. But despite me not liking it I totally understand the no bonus feature idea now, and despite me having cleared every other primal in hw before zur and nidhog I wont be joining any farm parties there is no in between learning and farm. And I grow tired of having to plaster my name all over my server over and over again this is the main thing I hate about cross server party finder and why I preferred duty finder. And will use it instead of cross server party finder, to go back to the old primals Ive already cleared.
So I say to those whom think its discrimination it is no doubt about it but at the same time its kinda needed in a way because it does slow down progress just from seeing how some fights really require u to be at the top of your game like zur. Id say do what I do and play for the clear and let that be enough forget about the rewards , and if you really want to just get past that content for the challenge and then do that and be done with it.

Because it really isnt fair if you cant do these fights perfect to join a pf that says farm on it. So yes its discrimination but its also just not easy to clear these fights because of the team effort you have to put in to do so thats why I really dont care for the hw primals to much focus on team mechanics where as the arr ones where much more based on individual effort and you could clear them without all eight players being on point. I hope that SE goes back to this method instead of these raid mechanic heavy fights like it is from sep on up to zur Im totally over it this creates a wedge much more than anything the fight itself.