seeing all these total newbie tank is hilarious

I never thought I'd see the day when I saw someone throw down an elitism argument for Pokémon of all things in the tank forums. I guess it just goes to show that elitists of a feather will flock together.

Look, yes, there are tooltips in the game to explain how moves work. Yes, there are quests to the same effect. Yes, the Hall of the Novice teaches you how to perform the most basic functions of your role. So yes, a player not knowing how to do some of the basic stuff by the time they get to a dungeon is kind of on their own heads, and yes, they have somewhat inconvenienced you if you happen to be in a party with them.

But rather than chew them out or grumble silently to complain about it later on the net, isn't it better to be kind and helpful, especially if the player is receptive? Sure, they could have gotten there on their own, but investing 1-2 minutes to explain the newbie a thing and praising them when they get it right will give everyone a much better experience, and is contributing to the positivity of the community. Grumbling and complaining (1) does not fix the problem, and (2) perpetuates the cycle of negativity. Yes, it's their fault, but that doesn't give you an excuse to be an arse.

And if that player's lack of knowledge really bothers you, there's nothing stopping you from joking with them after you've helped them: "you know, all this stuff is there in the tooltips for the moves, if you read them :p"

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I never thought I'd see the day when I saw someone throw down an elitism argument for Pokémon of all things in the tank forums. I guess it just goes to show that elitists of a feather will flock together.

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Yup, elitist, the word people love to use as an excuse to write someone off on these forums.

Yes, clearly this is a situation where the new player can get some help from a friendly player and improve as a result. Hugs all around.

The problem is that these same players keep going, and keep not learning on their own, only improving when someone else sits down to explain things. Ever met a level 50 Lancer? I have. What about a 60 BLM who thought ice mage was a legit playstyle? We all have.

Players are not held accountable to learn, and that's a problem.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Yup, elitist, the word people love to use as an excuse to write someone off on these forums.

Yes, clearly this is a situation where the new player can get some help from a friendly player and improve as a result. Hugs all around.

The problem is that these same players keep going, and keep not learning on their own, only improving when someone else sits down to explain things. Ever met a level 50 Lancer? I have. What about a 60 BLM who thought ice mage was a legit playstyle? We all have.

Players are not held accountable to learn, and that's a problem.

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If people weren't so averse to getting off their high horses and teaching others, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

EDIT: I also realize that some people don't want to be taught, but in my experience it's always worth t to try.

I met a level 34 GLD while fighting Titan on an alt who didn't know that FFXIV even had a job system. The quest appears when you finish the GLD story, but it's red until you get CNJ to 15--and the game doesn't exactly tell you that that's what you're supposed to do (it hints at it, but it's not spelled out). Until Stormblood, a quest to go to the required class hall and level that class to 15 would be very helpful in this regard, but I doubt if they'll add that in. Instead, it's our job as members of the community to teach one another and raise the floor.

I've seen a lot of things. There was an archer in Neverreap in level 30 gear. There was a summoner who didn't know how to use Dreadwyrm Trance or Ruin III, and a BLM who didn't use Enochian. I've seen a CNJ in Stone Vigil (that one hurt), a WAR in Int gear, a DRK who, at level 60, constantly floored their MP and let Darkside fall off. But for all of these, taking five minutes to explain things to them has always helped, and giving them resources for self improvement has always been met with thanks.

And I've seen these players turn around after I took those five minutes, and I've seen them improve themselves and pay it forward.

We who have knowledge and experience did not gain that from thin air. If you read tooltips, quest text, NPC dialogue? You learned to do all of that somewhere. If you search Google for tips on how to minmax your rotation or your opener? You learned to do that somewhere. If you see a bad player at some advanced point in the game? They have probably never learned that. Wouldn't it be nice of you to teach them not only how to play, but how to self improve? Sure, there are people who might not care, but I've never met them.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

The problem is that these same players keep going, and keep not learning on their own, only improving when someone else sits down to explain things. Ever met a level 50 Lancer? I have. What about a 60 BLM who thought ice mage was a legit playstyle? We all have.

Players are not held accountable to learn, and that's a problem.

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I disagree, mainly because the examples you have given have little/nothing to do with new tanks. In the OP's example, this was someone trying to learn, but struggling because of inexperience.

The problem is being overly critical or harassing the people who are in the learning phase. These new tanks decide it isn't worth the hassle of learning, then quit or change classes. The irony of the situation is that the DPS player who harassed the tank into quitting (and in many cases never tanked a dungeon themselves), proceeds to whine and complain about their 20min queue time spent waiting on a tank.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Maybe you pressed buttons at random in your first MMO, but I would hazard to guess that most players are concerned with things like how to actually play, and are willing to do things like read tooltips.

I remember my first years of gaming. It's not like we were all hopeless back in the day.

Remember Gen I Pokemon? Where even the youngest could figure out to use water moves on the fire type?

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Funny, you mentioned "how to play", but this game does a terrible job at actually doing that until the Novice stuff came into play, and even then it doesn't teach you the player meta or anything regarding rotations or how tanking actually is when you're minimum item level and everyone else is on that vitamin level sync.

Maybe you should get off the high horse for a moment and realize not everyone is accustomed to learning the way you or some others are. Not everything is as obvious for others as it is for you.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Funny, you mentioned "how to play", but this game does a terrible job at actually doing that until the Novice stuff came into play, and even then it doesn't teach you the player meta or anything regarding rotations or how tanking actually is when you're minimum item level and everyone else is on that vitamin level sync.

Maybe you should get off the high horse for a moment and realize not everyone is accustomed to learning the way you or some others are. Not everything is as obvious for others as it is for you.

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It does a good job of giving you all the information you need. Skills are all spread out, and each one has a potency (better than showing exact damage numbers for comparisons), combo effects, and any bonus effects like damage buffs. Anyone with common sense should be able to level up, see that they got Maim, and realise that it's going to be a damage increase. With the exception of BLM getting Fire IV at 60, every other job has a good, self-explanatory skill progression and we really shouldn't need a popup that says "You hit level 30, here's exactly what you should be doing".

I only have a single problem with tank skills while leveling: you can't see the exact enmity modifiers so it's not obvious just how strong Flash, Overpower and Unleash are. Apart from that, I don't think anyone has a good reason for hitting 50 (or even 30) without a decent idea of how to play their job.

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Originally Posted by Launched

I only have a single problem with tank skills while leveling: you can't see the exact enmity modifiers so it's not obvious just how strong Flash, Overpower and Unleash are. Apart from that, I don't think anyone has a good reason for hitting 50 (or even 30) without a decent idea of how to play their job.

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Part of me wants to agree here, but everything is experience. I know Flash, Overpower, HS->SS->BB, Tomahawk all increase enmity and no, I do not know exactly how much. But the little meter under my icon in the party window tells me if I have the aggro locked or not, and those buttons all say that if I press them in the right order, I will move that meter to the red so the bad guys will hate me most. At early levels, always err to the side of MOAR AGGRO if you are tanking. Will it hurt your perfect theoretical DPS? Sure, but who cares so long as you are making your healer's job easier.

That's what playing the game is for. To let experience be your guide.

After that one experience of being yelled at and then clowned, if the GLD in question didn't bail on tanking right then and there, chances are real good their next group in DF didn't need to explain it, eh?

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

HAHAHAHA oh man, and this is before level/story jump potions are integrated! LOL

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IF they were to include the potions, I think they should be inaccessible until AFTER the player run through the Hall of Novice on that role first.

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Originally Posted by Launched

I only have a single problem with tank skills while leveling: you can't see the exact enmity modifiers so it's not obvious just how strong Flash, Overpower and Unleash are. Apart from that, I don't think anyone has a good reason for hitting 50 (or even 30) without a decent idea of how to play their job.

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In my opinion, I don't need to see the enmity modifies. It simply needs to be known that keeping enmity/hate is the goal, even if it's small. Gaining enmity is gaining enmity, regardless of the source. I just hate players make fun of the PLD if he does Shield Lob > Circle of Scorn > Flash > then begin the Halone combo on a single target (boss), or a WAR tossing Tomahawk > Brutal Swing > Overpower > then begin the Butcher's Block combo, also on a single target (boss); Flash and Overpower being the question.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

snip for post length

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If I didn't enjoy teaching others, I never would have taught university. I do enjoy seeing people learn and grow. But, teaching taught me one thing very clearly: You can only help so much before people have to start being willing to help themselves.

I helped a lot of students with my Biology courses. I would often see the same student repeatedly. I had a lot of sympathy for everyone who was struggling. Eventually, I realized that many of the people coming back weren't putting in any effort on their own. It was simply easier to rely on my office hours for everything. That's when the sympathy dries up, and I see it a LOT here, too. You say we should teach people how to self-improve. It's as simple as using Google, or Reddit, or these forums. We spend our lives on the internet.

Maybe I'm jaded, but I only really help people who are willing to help themselves, and this game has very few of those people, relatively speaking.

Edit: Just to weigh in on the side conversation, exact enmity modifiers are extremely useful, in my opinion. That said, I am a very mathy person, so I make use of that kind of data pretty readily.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

My point is that there is a level of comprehension and self-sufficiency that one can and should expect from even brand new players.

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And what level is that? The performance described in the OP isn't exactly uncommon and is something you can expect from newer tanks. This isn't a one-off.

You do not appear to be setting this standard based on actual new player performance.
Are your expectations reasonable? or have you put this arbitrary standard in place so you feel justified or better about yourself when you look down on/laugh at/harass new players? They had it coming right?

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

If I didn't enjoy teaching others, I never would have taught university.

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Then you of all people should know that many people learn differently. Someone could read an entire book on tanking and they still wouldn't understand it until they actually set foot in there and started doing it for themselves. I know this because I am one of those people. It's why people say that university doesn't prepare you for the real world.

It's the same thing for raiding. I can repeat Mr. Happy videos until the cows come home. I'll never truly understand those mechanics until I try doing them. And guess what? I fail at them. Usually multiple times until I get it. Does my raid team make fun of me for it? Of course not. So why should it be okay to do it to new tanks? Especially when we already have a shortage of them?

If you see beginners not wearing the gear you earn from the Novice Hall, then a gentle nudge in the direction of the smith might alleviate some of the issues with basics. The gear you're given is essentially the best beginner gear a new player can acquire short of crafters or the market board. The Novice Hall does teach you about enmity, plus the range/size of flash/overpower. The smiths have a giant sprout over the heads right next the place the player first spawns after the intro cutscene, at the adventurer's guild. There is no excuse for a GLD or MRD to not know the basics of enmity and their core role in a party before the first dungeon - they even put a smith outside Sastasha - and the Novice Hall is smack dab outside Aleport. The only way a player would miss it is if they are in blind rush and do not care to read anything or explore anything but to get to their next level.

However. It does not teach about working with other players in a team. It does not teach you that other players can build enmity and take it from you. It does not teach you that adds may not always appear in one convenient package, or that as a result of taking additional damage it may be wise to pop cooldowns even in the presence of a dedicated healer. And so on.

I agree that learning can come from both experience and tutoring.

But. Before anyone gets too comfy on their high horse, let it be said that only a small percentage of players are actually pioneers - who go into content blind and put in the time and patience to learn the fight from start to finish. Most others - including those veterans who think they're all that - are just glorified copycats.

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Originally Posted by Launched

It does a good job of giving you all the information you need. Skills are all spread out, and each one has a potency (better than showing exact damage numbers for comparisons), combo effects, and any bonus effects like damage buffs. Anyone with common sense should be able to level up, see that they got Maim, and realise that it's going to be a damage increase. With the exception of BLM getting Fire IV at 60, every other job has a good, self-explanatory skill progression and we really shouldn't need a popup that says "You hit level 30, here's exactly what you should be doing".

I only have a single problem with tank skills while leveling: you can't see the exact enmity modifiers so it's not obvious just how strong Flash, Overpower and Unleash are. Apart from that, I don't think anyone has a good reason for hitting 50 (or even 30) without a decent idea of how to play their job.

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But does it? Is this how we actually play? Yes, the combo system in the game is understandable to everyone, and I never really run into someone who doesn't know how to do their combo outside of one GLD that didn't and went with the other combo since it had more damage, but couldn't keep hate so I told him the other one is better for that purpose.

However, as someone who has instructed a lot of tanks how to play at early levels, (to get their basics going), I still don't feel the game prepares you to play with other people as a Tank. Tank is unique in that it's designed to be the initiator, but in lower level dungeons, the DPS or sometimes Healers don't care about their role cause they can get away with doing the entire run without the Tank, and bursting huge DPS that the lowly Tank can't keep up with as the other players have the advantage on gear and how fast they strike (as in, attacking before the tank gets the first pull in). They don't get the proper experience how to be a Tank because the meta for lower levels is to ignore that cause "lul let's speedrun 4 tomez".

Then people wonder why a Tank gets up to a certain level and doesn't know how to do basic things. Now, if the early game was actually balanced around level sync, as in, a DPS and Healers dying if they were sitting there tanking mobs, then yeah, that'd give newbie Tanks enough time to learn.

They need to do something about this.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

They need to do something about this.

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The developers have some work to do in regards to early tank balance.

Gladiator as a tank is........completely worthless. It has absolutely no hope in regards to holding hate against level synced players. Meanwhile, Marauder doesn't have this issue. This is because flash doesn't do any damage, while overpower does do damage. In fact, Marauder in general does more damage, which equals more hate. Gladiator is suppose to be the go to tank for beginners. Why is it the hardest tank to start out with? Why is tanking in general harder in the early levels than it is in endgame? It makes no sense, and the icing on the cake is that Shield Oath doesn't come until level 40, while the other tanks get theirs at 30.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

The developers have some work to do in regards to early tank balance.

Gladiator as a tank is........completely worthless. It has absolutely no hope in regards to holding hate against level synced players. Meanwhile, Marauder doesn't have this issue. This is because flash doesn't do any damage, while overpower does do damage. In fact, Marauder in general does more damage, which equals more hate. Gladiator is suppose to be the go to tank for beginners. Why is it the hardest tank to start out with? Why is tanking in general harder in the early levels than it is in endgame? It makes no sense, and the icing on the cake is that Shield Oath doesn't come until level 40, while the other tanks get theirs at 30.

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Flash is 600 potency, Overpower is 120 potency with a x5 multiplier. They generate the same amount of enmity unless Overpower crits (which isn't reliable at those low levels) or Berserk is up, but that has a 90s cooldown. Spending 2 GCDs to put up Maim will increase the enmity on each Overpower, but it also means you spent 2 GCDs not generating 600 enmity per target which actually puts GLA ahead in enmity. Skull Sunder is the same potency and has the same enmity multiplier as Savage Blade, and again if you're going to keep up Maim that's going to be an enmity loss because you're only doing Skull Sunder every 4th GCD instead of every 2nd GCD. So MRD can do more damage but it actually leads to less enmity.

I'd also be perfectly happy with Deliverance being moved to level 30 and Defiance being moved to 40, because you really don't need the bonuses from tank stance until DPS are getting things like AF3/GL3 at around 40, and dungeons don't really hurt until Stone Vigil.

Low level tank problems are exaggerated by people who don't know how strong the aoe abilities are.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Gladiator as a tank is........completely worthless. It has absolutely no hope in regards to holding hate against level synced players.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Flash is 600 potency, Overpower is 120 potency with a x5 multiplier...Low level tank problems are exaggerated by people who don't know how strong the aoe abilities are.

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Aside from these two skills having equal enmity it is also worth noting that PLD has the ability to spam Flash due to Riot Blade, while WAR cannot spam either Overpower or Flash due to the lack of a MP generating ability, and the innate regeneration limit of Overpower. Considering that Halone and Flash, both enmity generating skills, are also debuffs capable of reducing a target's damage to the tank, it is possible for a PLD at low levels to maintain aggro against extreme AoE conditions (AST, BLM, BLM) by going FB>RB>Flash on say, 6 targets, while a warrior would have problems with both withstanding the incoming damage from that without the later defensive buffs, as well as having enough resources to generate more AoE threat than the DPS/Heal threat in abovementioned extreme condition.

Warriors were given Defiance at level 30 to balance out their lack of mitigation options at that point, while Paladins have no such problem. Paladins, on the other hand, had craptastic damage in 1v1 settings which Sword Oath fixes, which is not a problem for Warriors as they have maim, berserk, etc. The current setup for the Stances is correct. If Paladins were to have their stance level order swapped, Paladins would have more trouble dealing with smaller groups when their damage is so low. If Warriors were to have their stance level order swapped, good Warriors would still be incapable of maintaining aggro (or surviving) against a 6-mob AoE situation due to their innate resource restrictions on enmity generation skills. The Paladin is simply better at generating sustained enmity than the Warrior is, and pays for this by being worse in damage. In a meta where enmity generation is easy, the Warrior has the superior overall situation here, but saying Paladins are weak in enmity generation is simply not true. Paladins are the easiest class to learn how to tank in; while most Paladins never go anywhere near running out of MP (unless they die and are resurrected on the spot with zero MP), the class allows for them to use far more Flashes than people generally use.

The only cases in which Paladins have problems holding enmity are when healers insist on using AoE nukes followed by AoE heals off cooldown in a party where DPSers are mostly single-target based. In that situation, the tank is forced to decide whether to continue Halone to save the DPSers, or to continue the Flash-RB tack to save the healer. But that would be a case of a terrible healer with zero situational awareness, rather than any problem with the tank. In particular this also applies only before level 40. After that, even crazy healers can be covered once Shield Oath shows up.

I wouldn't advocate Warriors use their enmity stance unless they really need to, however. It forms a bit of a crutch that makes them less effective at maintaining threat with damage later on. Tanking stances should only ever be used when DPS output is either so high that it is not possible to maintain effective aggro without it, or the healer is so incompetent it is not possible to survive without its damage reduction. It's usually the second case because DPS that good are rare.

Incidentally, a cross-classed Flash will get the same benefits from Berserk that Overpower does, though it is usually better to save Flash for doubleflashing during the 5s period after Berserk which low level healers rarely know how to Esuna away, as there is literally nothing else they can do in that period.

Edit:
Enmity values are obtainable here. It's a bad thing that SE does not make these values visible in the UI itself, it makes things unnecessarily problematic for new tanks.

I wanna say I'm not saying this to anyone in particular, just sharing my experience as a stand alone statement and isn't meant to be taken as abrasive to any reply to the OP's statement.

There was no hall of the novice when i started tanking, Fate grinding was actually the best exp in the game. Got to 50 as a Pld and jumped into Amdapor Keep. Luckily I was grouped with people who understood my predicament. It was a thing back then believe it or not haha. They gave me a solid foundation and tips I still use to this day. I was extremely fortunate to get those 3 people in my first dungeon on Pld. And I gotta say, thank you to them, and everyone else who takes the time to actually help people. Regardless of if you have a crown next to your name or not... Most "mentors" couldn't talk their way out of a wet paper bag and only got the crown because it looks cool. I have mentor status now, But I don't play as often as I used to so I don't have the time to enter long term dialog without using up all my free time. So I don't wear the crown. But If I enter a dungeon and see someone struggling I'll always take a few minutes to try help anyone who needs it.

Not saying what I did was the right thing to do (jumping into Amdapor as my first pld dungeon), just offering a weird perspective into a possibility even today.

I was a good Apoc Dark Knight and Nin/war tank in ffxi, so i thought It couldn't be much different, and on most boss fights the same rules apply... But I specifically had trouble with trash pulls since I undervalued my Aoes ability to hold threat.

However..
Regardless of tooltips (and lets face it, they don't tell us all the information they could/should), hall of the novice and the many teaching tools that are actually woven into the fabric of the games dungeons/boss fights, Or even time you've spent on this game. Everyone deserves a little help if they're misunderstanding how to properly play a class, regardless of if it's a tank or not. The trick to getting through to those people is to not be a facetious asshole. Especially if you're in a DF dungeon, Sure you might never see them again and you could just grin and bear it... But is helping out a random stranger such a horrible inconvenience? You don't technically -gain- anything by doing it. But it's a nice thing to do and could positively influence a player for the rest of their adventures in the game. Like 3 random stranger did for me so long ago.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Yep and that's the issue with new players they just skim/skip over everything and then when you try to teach them anything *crickets* nothing.

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Basically the problem with new players is they're new.

The problem with the rest of the people is they forget what that was like...

If I'm doing something not "perfect according to somebody else" and they start yammering at me... I will often just purposefully go in for what I know to be a bad rotation... or do something, if I can find it, to wipe their toon (even if I have to faceplant to do it)... just because I get tired of some people nerd raging and back seat driving other players.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

If I'm doing something not "perfect according to somebody else" and they start yammering at me... I will often just purposefully go in for what I know to be a bad rotation... or do something, if I can find it, to wipe their toon (even if I have to faceplant to do it)... just because I get tired of some people nerd raging and back seat driving other players.

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I don't get this you want to wipe the group/their character just to get a point across? Then what you said that the rest of the playerbase forgets what it's like to be new, is that contrary to your statement or is it mostly contradictory to what it is? If that's the case, then why bother teaching new people anything, by your words we should just take any helpful tips and just throw ourselves away because it's better then taking 2 mins of typing and learning something new that you didn't.

God forbid we teach people in an MMO anything these days without it being nerd raging to others, I help people and I actually talk to them and give them advice they can either take it or leave it. But when I teach players that:

-Foes doesn't lower your dmg
-Melding Piety doesn't help as a drk
-Cycle your CDs as a tank and learn how to pair them
-Move the melee mobs to the caster mobs so you can AoE them down together
Etc

I'm not gonna take my group down with me if they don't want to listen it's a game to play and enjoy we're all not super PvE raiders and top parse players but I at least want people to get better, it's different then "okay this guy is screaming at me to do this in a condenscending way". I just type out whatever it is that I say and if it's really pressing I'll use <se.X> to get their attention but I don't spam it, you might see it as back seat driving but it's really not, we're all new and you shouldn't point antagonize new people and you certainly shouldn't purposefully wipe a group over something so minute.

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Originally Posted by winsock

And what level is that?

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To answer, here's some background on my starting this game and where my view came from.

I've played many multiplayer games, and the one thing that everyone seems to universally hate is a bad teammate. That's fair. So, my approach is always to do my best to never be that guy that gets bad stories told about him on Reddit. Why? Because, in my opinion, it's courteous. No-one wants a bad teammate, so being one is rude and disrespectful.

So, before starting this game, I did my homework. I read about the class and job system, cross-class skills, dungeons, tanking, healing, DPSing, the raiding meta, how questing works, everything. I read it all, and I watched lots of gameplay videos, so I wouldn't be dead weight to anyone.

I don't expect everyone to do all of that. But, I firmly believe that the intent should be there to elevate oneself for the sake of your teammates, however you can best accomplish that. It is rude and disrespectful to not be the best teammate you can be, and that's why I feel the way I do, and hold standards that are higher than others present.

I'm not a perfect player, and never will be. I make plenty of mistakes, and I've caused wipes. But, I will always keep trying to improve my play for the sake of my teammates. It's why I spend time outside of the game on these forums among other places. It's why I listen to podcasts and watch videos related to this game.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

No-one wants a bad teammate, so being one is rude and disrespectful.

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This is either incorrect or a self-defeating argument:
A) Incorrect
Something that is unwanted is not necessarily rude/disrespectful.
Ex: No one wants an unhealthy family member. If a family member becomes unhealthy, it doesnt mean they have been rude to you or disrespected you

B) Self-defeating argument
Assume your logic is true: Something unwanted is rude/disrespectful and we should avoid being rude/disrespectful. While it would support your argument, it also supports this one:
No one wants to be the source of a complain, target of harassment, butt of a joke, etc; therefore, actions like these are rude/disrespectful. So, we should not complain about, make fun of, harass, etc new tanks.

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I read it all, and I watched lots of gameplay videos, so I wouldn't be dead weight to anyone
...
I'm not a perfect player, and never will be. I make plenty of mistakes, and I've caused wipes.

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I guarantee someone has considered you to be dead weight.

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I firmly believe that the intent should be there to elevate oneself for the sake of your teammates, however you can best accomplish that. It is rude and disrespectful to not be the best teammate you can be, and that's why I feel the way I do, and hold standards that are higher than others present.

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And how do you make the determination as to whether or not someone else's "intent" is proper? How can you tell if they are "best accomplish[ing] that"?

Just to recap this paragraph:
You believe every player should have 2 things, neither of which are not measurable.
If they dont have these 2 things, you consider them rude, which is subjective.
Or in other words, you just kinda pick and choose...

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To answer, here's some background on my starting this game and where my view came from.

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Please note that you have not answered my question. You made the claim that there is a "level of comprehension and self-sufficiency that one can and should expect from even brand new players". I have asked you to define that level, but instead you told me a backstory and your feelings about things. I didnt ask about either of those. I am just asking for a measurable definition.

To clarify:
Could you please define the minimum "level of comprehension and self-sufficiency that one can and should expect from even brand new players"? For example, if I were to adopt your system, how do I know if someone fits the bill? If I adopt your system, what do I need to know so that you and I would come to the same conclusion about a particular player 100% of the time?

All of the information you have provided so far is either subjective or not measurable (in other words: useless). I could not adopt your system even if I tried.

This standard you are holding people to appears to be based completely on your feelings. Is it actually a reasonable standard? Or is this just something you do to feel better about your negative thoughts / actions towards new tanks?

I would expect these of new tanks:

• Gear within 10 levels of the dungeon level.
• Know how and when to use Flash.
• Know how to activate Shield Oath and leave it on.
• Know how to use defensive cooldowns.
• Keeping aggro on 50% of mobs.

I do not expect the following:

• Gear of equal/higher level than the dungeon.
• Knowing maximum DPS rotations.
• Being able to interrupt attacks correctly.
• Facing mobs in the correct direction.
• Being able to survive at least 6 mobs.
• Knowing when to switch between Sword and Shield Oath.
• Knowing when to Fracture and when not to.
• Proper usage of Provoke when aggro is lost.
• Keeping aggro on all mobs all the time.

The above list is a list of basic requirements everyone who has cleared Hall of the Novice can do, with no dungeon mechanic knowledge and no MMO experience. The later list is a list of speedrun/farm type requirements, which is more restrictive.

If someone fails the basic requirement list, I can prevent the dungeon from wiping if I'm the healer, even if it means getting myself killed once or twice. If I'm a DPS, the dungeon will wipe most of the time, and we need to sit down and have a chat with the tank before we continue.

I literally just completed a Stone Vigil run with a tank that didn't know how to tank at all. He held aggro on one mob (in spite of Shield Oath), I had aggro on all others, all the time. Between running back and forth with Regen and Swiftcasting Sleep, I only died once when the black mage decided to Fira a group of mobs I sent to sleep. After telling him to Flash, he still doesn't Flash. He has lvl 50 gear from PotD. Tanks that bad are still survivable, even if extremely annoying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winsock

This standard you are holding people to appears to be based completely on your feelings. Is it actually a reasonable standard? Or is this just something you do to feel better about your negative thoughts / actions towards new tanks?

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You know, it might feel harmless at first, but how far will you drop the bar to pass before it completely wrecks your experience later down the road? The community has expectations especially down the road, and the novice hall doesnt do it, and tool tips barely help with any cohesion with that stuff. The best way to get this information, without trying and research, will probably be that mean dps/healer who probably had enough and blew up on them

Just sounds like your typical run on Tonberry.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

You know, it might feel harmless at first, but how far will you drop the bar to pass before it completely wrecks your experience later down the road? The community has expectations especially down the road, and the novice hall doesnt do it, and tool tips barely help with any cohesion with that stuff. The best way to get this information, without trying and research, will probably be that mean dps/healer who probably had enough and blew up on them

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I think you are asking the right questions.
* Where should the bar be?
* What should it be used for?

Its important to define that bar so that progress can be made towards it. Ex: Mika made a suggestion about ilvl. Why not enforce an ilvl req?

What good does using the bar to explode on a new tank do? Less people to tank? Longer queues? Are you using the bar just to give yourself permission to explode? What good does that do anyone? The tank doesn't like it and neither does the person exploding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winsock

To clarify:
Could you please define the minimum "level of comprehension and self-sufficiency that one can and should expect from even brand new players"? For example, if I were to adopt your system, how do I know if someone fits the bill? If I adopt your system, what do I need to know so that you and I would come to the same conclusion about a particular player 100% of the time?

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You want clarification? Sure. I believe that even a brand new player should be held accountable for reading and applying (at a basic level) in-game information. That's my threshold. There it is. I want people to be willing to read what's in front of them.

When you mouse over a spell and it tells you what it does? Read that. Maybe consider those words as more than screen clutter. The same can be said for literally everything else you can put your mouse over: stats, items, TRAITS... The help boxes that pop up all the time? Those actually have some really critical information in them sometimes. NPC's telling you what to do in Hall of the Novice or instances like Steps of Faith? It's not there for atmosphere. Quest requirements when something is red and locked out for you? Would certainly answer lots of questions in the NN. You level up and get a message to go get your new class ability? That's important to read to.

I get upset when I have to explain something to someone when the game already told them in their native language exactly how it works.

Are there bad tooltips? Yeah. Are some things not very clear? Definitely. But, at least TRY.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

For the third time in this thread, I will say that Overpower/Flash spam IS SITUATIONAL. Sometimes, I get the synched down DPS that can AE like maniacs, so my job shifts to AE enmity instead of following "The Perfect Rotation As Specified

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The only situation where you would need to spam overpower to keep aggro is if you are undergeared.


No dps will be able to rip aggro if you play war right with buffs and are around the same gear level. Simple. If you are needing to OP spam to hold aggro id reccommend checking your rotation and seeing where you can improve.


Flash is 99% useless and the 1% time it isnt is for emergency situations that were caused by the tanks own blunder (getting pacified shortly before a horde of enemies spawn).


Other than that, i guess you could just use it for extra "why not" padding during pacification, but its generally useless. Ive had flash on my war up to lvl 45 before i realized i never use it, and i dont miss it.

i understand you dont have war at 60 yet, and perhaps you didnt have a longtime lvl 50 war during ARR, so the learning process is still in effect for you, but once you get more accustomed to war, you will find yourself as well, almost never or if ever, using flash.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

You want clarification? Sure. I believe that even a brand new player should be held accountable for reading and applying (at a basic level) in-game information. That's my threshold. There it is. I want people to be willing to read what's in front of them.

When you mouse over a spell and it tells you what it does? Read that. Maybe consider those words as more than screen clutter.

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You're still not answering with something you can measure.
I can't know whether or not someone has actually read something prior to the duty.
"applying at a basic level" is subjective.

For example, in the OPs example, the new tank missed with flash. I can detect whether or not the tank hit with flash. I can't know whether or not they read the tooltip prior. Is a learning tank allowed to miss with flash? I can tell if a tank loses aggro. Is a new tank allowed to lose aggro? Etc

Please define your standard by things that can actually be measured/perceived. All you have been doing is making assumptions about strawmen.

Flash is more a Paladin thing for the damage reduction from blind. Warrior doesn't get that, so unless you're low on TP for some reason, mobs are so far apart they can only be reached with a flash in their centre or you're Pacified, overpower's ability to damage mobs is always superior since they have exactly the same Threat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

But, at least TRY.

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Papa Bless! 100% agree.

This Winsock guy is like, on a crusade to try bury you. It's hilarious. GG my friend d=

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Papa Bless! 100% agree.

This Winsock guy is like, on a crusade to try bury you. It's hilarious. GG my friend d=

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Namely because he seems to be fishing for excuses to berate and belittle new players, and is evading a simple question about his criteria for whether or not he's justified in being mean.

I will restate my point: There is no 'baseline' by which you can determine if someone isn't trying solely on their behavior. As such, it is not by any means reasonable to be rude to someone or gripe at them without having directly interacted with them on the issue in question. Therefore, it is ALWAYS worthwhile to check with them to see if they know what they're doing.

You will never know what a person does and does not know. They might not have hovered over a move long enough to see the tooltip. They might be misinterpreting the tooltip. They might even not know that Google exists. If you take at least a minute to check in with them instead of roleplaying the eternal stoic? You could be the person that changes the game for them, or possibly even the Internet.

FFXIV has had a notably more positive community than other MMOs on the market for a long time, and we need to work really hard if we want to keep it that way. That means at the very least, if we want to maintain it as such, we are responsible to be accommodating, gentle, and kind.

Also, just because you taught at the university level doesn't mean anything. As with basically any other profession, I've known professors and adjunct faculty who are incredible people, and I've known just as many who were rude, selfish jerks. It may account for why you're so jaded, but if that's the case, I hope you're able to find some respite somewhere that doesn't involve ragging on newbies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Papa Bless! 100% agree.

This Winsock guy is like, on a crusade to try bury you. It's hilarious. GG my friend d=

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His argument is that new people should be held accountable for reading and applying the material.

Personally, I think that new people should read the material; however, there is a problem with the 'accountability' part. Before you can hold someone accountable, you must verify they did the thing you want to hold them accountable for.

For example: "Did the new person read the tooltip?" It is impossible to verify the answer to this question in the overwhelming majority of cases. If this question is being answered on a regular basis, where is the answer coming from? It's certainly not the new tank.

I speculate the answer's source is his imagination:
Dragonseth07 asks Dragonseth07: "Did the new tank read the tooltip?"
Dragonseth07 answers Dragonseth07 for the new tank without any verification: "No."

^ I dont think it is reasonable for someone to pose a question like this to themselves, generate an answer for the new tank in their imagination, and then hold said tank accountable as if the daydream was reality.

Because of this, I have asked him several times to clarify the definition of his standard through verifiable things, but the answers I keep getting back are centered around his "feels".

You're right, I have no way of reading minds to see if someone read their tooltips. I'm not psychic. All I can do is make assumptions based on what I see, when I see someone using an ability correctly or when I see someone spamming Bootshine instead of building stacks. You're right that it's unfair, and I'm just judging performance.

Am I a jerk for judging people based on their play? Sure, yes. I'm a jerk. I judge myself and others HEAVILY based on gameplay, and I expect judgment to come at me from others.

Call me elitist, call me whatever. I judge what I see, and I hold high standards for myself and my teammates.

Those standards are why I haven't done ANY of the level 60 endgame fights yet. Literally none of them. I just got through Sohm Al. I'm not good enough yet, in my judgment.

All my time is spent practicing and improving more and more. How long can I hold FoF on the GCD before the animation clips Goring Blade? If there's only time for one more GCD on the boss, should I use an un-combo'ed Aeolian Edge for the highest potency, or is the phase short enough that I can keep up combo? What are the most important GCd's to fit into the potion timer?

I lost aggro on WAR in a dungeon a few days ago, and it was completely unacceptable. I misjudged what I could generate, and it cost the group time. So I've practiced more at that level sync range to drill in what I need to use under those circumstances.

I want to be a good teammate in everything I do, and it irritates me when it seems like someone doesn't share that sentiment. I've met plenty of players who just need some help. I met a wonderful sprout WHM yesterday, and explained how healer DPS works. It was great. I meet far more people who are just being lazy, and don't care.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Those standards are why I haven't done ANY of the level 60 endgame fights yet. Literally none of them. I just got through Sohm Al. I'm not good enough yet, in my judgment.

...

I want to be a good teammate in everything I do, and it irritates me when it seems like someone doesn't share that sentiment.

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You take this game a lot more seriously than most (perhaps too seriously, some would argue). I would remind you of three things:

1. While there is nothing wrong with you holding yourself to your own standard of excellence, it makes you a bad teammate if you apply those same standards to others. Help them, sure, but don't berate them for suboptimal performance as you might berate yourself, and accept that not everyone cares about perfection as heavily as you do (especially when perfection is not a requirement for success).

2. The content is a lot more forgiving than you think. Even if you're only playing at 60% of what your job can do, you're going to be able to succeed at the content with your groups, and likely get praise and commendations along the way. You're just robbing yourself at this point.

3. It is always safer to assume that people want to do well and contribute to group success than to assume their suboptimal performance is meant as a slight against you or your group.

I was drawn to this thread as I have just started tanking myself and I'm surprised to say I'm gladdened by what I'm reading!

I've mainly played DPS but I wanted to see if there was justification for the occassional berating I'd see them get in a dungeon. Walk a mile in their shoes, if you will.

Each party I've had so far has been really helpful, so long as I communicate that I'm new to the job and appreciate any advice. 1 or 2 have dropped, but the majority have been ace.

From what I understand, it's a two way street. Maybe the best way to deal with new tanks is to offer patience & advice and the best way to be a new tank is to take it! Until I started reading a few guides, threads (like this one) and tried it myself, I was clueless about how a tank held aggro so I'd be grumbling to myself when a tank couldn't hold aggro while a Bard/BLM combo rained a fiery AoE death on everything.

That said, I'd probably smack my head on the keyboard if I came across a >lvl30 GLA/MAR :D

It's one thing to immediately smash a newbie with a pitchfork for not being an experienced player - it's a completely other thing when they've unlocked several different dungeons and still don't even use Flash, ignore polite suggestions from Healers & DPS trying to give them advice, and reach the end of the dungeon anyway without any punishment (eg. DPS tanking is fine if the Healer isn't asleep when playing in that bracket, so there's no early incentive to wake the hell up), thus quite a few new players psuedo pat themselves on the back for getting the job done while thinking everything was alright - because hey, we completed it, why are you complaining, eh?

My patience can really be tested when I do DPS a roulette lowbie dungeon and either the Healer hasn't a clue what cleric is and/or the Tank is flailing around with no actual emnity consideration after having clearly done many dungeons before joining me. I'm 110% perfectly fine with people learning - we all had to do it - but there's just too many plebs roaming around who will give you the silent treatment despite buckets full of blatantly obvious evidence that they're doing something extremely wrong and just don't care. As someone above has said, you don't even have to be an MMORPG player or experienced in the role to understand the basic concept of "Your job is basically to keep things from hitting anyone that isn't you".

So long as the party is performing well enough to complete the dungeon without many complications, I think lecturing them is a waste of energy at that point. While its true that some players are receptive to criticism, I'd wager there are many more players who can't handle criticism or, as you suggest, just don't care. The idea that completing the dungeon is 'not enough' and that players should always try to optimize their performance is foreign to most casuals. It's an admirable attitude, of course - but not one you should try to impose upon others. Ultimately you have to be self-motivated to get good at the game, and most truly self-motivated players will figure things out regardless of whether you offer them tips or not. Hence, since offering "polite suggestions" rarely helps and often backfires (especially when many self-proclaimed "polite" helpers are in fact jerks) it's better just to let things slide in DF. An attitude of "good is good enough" goes a long way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

You take this game a lot more seriously than most (perhaps too seriously, some would argue).

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And I would argue that it's only expected that a man who works hard plays hard. When people decide to be subpar, and it is something they choose because at any point they can read or watch a video or practice on a dummy, it isn't a slight against anyone. No, it's not personal, it's never against anyone on purpose, but it's the LACK of conscientiousness. They don't care about you, or I, or anyone else in the party. They don't care to waste my time or someone else's time. It's contempt for the party and conformity to mediocrity for one's subpar playstyle. You expect me or anyone else to take that lightly and not be annoyed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hierro

And I would argue that it's only expected that a man who works hard plays hard. When people decide to be subpar, and it is something they choose because at any point they can read or watch a video or practice on a dummy, it isn't a slight against anyone. No, it's not personal, it's never against anyone on purpose, but it's the LACK of conscientiousness. They don't care about you, or I, or anyone else in the party. They don't care to waste my time or someone else's time. It's contempt for the party and conformity to mediocrity for one's subpar playstyle. You expect me or anyone else to take that lightly and not be annoyed?

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Yes, because you are judging them without any information on their circumstance. That's kind of a jerk move.

As long as you're succeeding at encounters and aren't failing DPS checks, then there is literally nothing to complain about. If it isn't going as fast as you'd like, and you have some suggestions for how the other players can up their game? Make those suggestions--but keep in mind that the only metric most people use to judge their competence is whether or not they die, and whether or not they succeed at encounters. If they're not failing, they are under no obligation to take your advice.

And even if someone is performing poorly and your group meets failure in some way, there is never a valid excuse for being a jerk.