Stop Making Should-Be Achievement Gear.."Optional Gear"

They are not going to stop doing something that is profitable just because you don't like it. Sorry, but that is reality.

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Originally Posted by Owl_Hawk

But where does it stop?

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It stops when, instead of relying on a small number of people with the bad financial sense to buy all their crap (e.g., me), they raise subscription prices across the board.

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Originally Posted by Gaj85

You do realize that you don't HAVE to purchase OPTIONAL items, right? So who cares if others do? How does that concern you at all?

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This has always been a poor counterargument and I say this as someone who has purchased multiple items from the Mog Station as well as from Square Enix's official store. The rate at which new items are added to the Mog Station has increased over time and there's a lot of stagnating content in-game that could easily be refreshed by adding some new items as rare rewards. Take the revamped Diadem, for instance - there's no exclusive rewards in the form of mounts, minions or glamour for those of us who already acquired the pegasus mount and minion the first time around.

...and in a game where most of the content revolves around acquiring interesting looking glamour, minions, emotes and mounts it feels very dishonest to play down the appeal and importance of cosmetic rewards.

I can't personally jump on the Doom & Gloom train about how the cash shop is the worst thing ever when it's only feeding more money into the game you, the naysayers, are apparently still enjoying enough to continue subbing for. Everything on the cash shop has been of really niche interest. There's hardly anything any there that the average person gets excited about except for once in a blue moon so it's hardly like they are even abusing it's current state to it's full potential either. When accounting for my total subscription fee and Mogstation purchases, to date I've still spent less money on here than my previous game which was a Free-to-Play MMO which I have - by now - played less than FFXIV and I am a glamour/vanity freak with over eight characters who has no problem shelling out money in this game if it's for something that suits any one of my characters.

Many people are speaking as though this is the only avenue in life where you pay for a service and don't get absolutely everything remotely associated with it for free in exchange. There's nothing exploitative about this system in my opinion and anyone who claims otherwise is primarily basing their reasoning an a slippery slope fallacy when the fact of the matter is that 90% of the people who express support for and defend the cash shop all imply they are just as against the idea of it reaching the same negative point you are all afraid of(e.g paying for 'power-ups').

I don't like that the new emotes are single-character only. I think that was unnecessarily stingey of SE to throw out such a restriction.
I also think the OP had an undeniably interesting point about the likes of NPC Magitek Reapers being made available through farm content and I admit I regret the missed opportunity(since the mentor one was horribly implemented) for the sake of those interested, but I still wholeheartedly support the cash shop - that is to say, I still wholeheartedly support a fair and non-pressuring manner in which the game I love playing can rake in more revenue, look more successful to the investors, and therefore earn nice and plump budgets to feed back into the game as what happened with Stormblood. Yes please.

I can't even fathom this concept that some people are suggesting where the game should be made better in exchange for making less money.

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Originally Posted by Owl_Hawk

A sub is a sub..we should have access to everything if this game isnt a Free-To-Play game.

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This is where I think the argument goes too far. The cash shop is not SE holding candy in front of your face and telling you, "You need this! Buy this!". You don't need any of this. Saying its Optional Items is just not enough for people, so whatever.

For what it's worth, this is how I look at it: I bought Tales of Berseria at full price on Steam because I played a Tales game once. Tales of Berseria ended up blowing my expectations out of the water and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I want the devs of this game to continue making Tales game of this quality and better, but how can I do that? I buy all of the DLC costumes/items. I WANT to support good game development and MONEY is how I can do that. Yeah, I bought the game already and some would say that is enough, but I'd rather drive the message home and make sure these men and women get rewarded for their work.

I love FFxiv, it's the best MMO on the market by a long shot, imo. I pay my sub even when I stay 3-4 weeks off every now and then. I also buy stuff from the cash shop. Not because I think I need it, but because I support FFxiv. Subs is not enough to pay for everything we get in this game. I believe I read something about how the cash shop was able to pay for the upgrades to the NA servers? (i dont have a source).

With your threads you have been making it would seem you are not Happy. You could always leave the game and be done with it?

OPu can always change game lmao be happy u can quit the game iif it stresses you like this

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Originally Posted by Owl_Hawk

A sub is a sub..we should have access to everything if this game isnt a Free-To-Play game.

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May I ask why? You mention that content "should" be earned in-game, and that we are paying for a "FULL membership," but what are those points based on? Because Square Enix doesn't need to make more money? I mean, granted, but so what? By what argument "should" all this be free? You act like that's an inherent truth, but that's not the case.

Now, I think your point about customer satisfaction is strong, and important. If they charge too much and it drives people away, that's bad, both from a business and a customer perspective. However, that doesn't seem to be happening, at least not yet. But I don't think it's wise to conflate "I don't like that I have to pay for this" with "I shouldn't have to pay for this." The first is a valid argument, even though everyone seems to be afraid to just say that. The second is kind of nonsense.

Sure, we can take out the cash shop, but your sub fee goes up to $100 a month. Would you STILL keep playing if the sub fee was $100 a month? I know I wouldn't. At least with optional items I can dip in when I have a bit of extra change to spare for my gaming, but if it was $100 a month sub fee I couldn't justify that. £8.99 a month is very reasonable plus a cash shop allowing me to dip into items. If they charged for access to dungeons or savage raids, etc, sure, I'd be OK with that, I buy access to the dungeons I want. No big deal. To me the £8.99 a month covers server access only. Anything else given by it is a bonus.

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Originally Posted by Owl_Hawk

But where does it stop? Shall they stop making all sorts of weapon models all together? and just upgrade the same piece of item forever? And if you want anything else...pay for it? We are paying a sub already..part of that sub is the expectation that we will get digital items..systems such as the Veteran items is fine, since it rewards people who play...The Sub also covers items that users can use in the game....The game should be fun, challenging and since it is an MMO...should have alot more content for people to go do...Things to strive for...otherwise what is the point of playing at all? Then have them remove all mounts from EX fights...All emotes from the game..I can afford to buy these items...But my point is why pay a sub and bother having achievements if all the good stuff is bought? why do anything in the game? Raiding is OPTIONAL isnt it? so is LEVELING...so is gearing up...you don't make a strong point at all.

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Well let's dissect this post, shall we?

1. We don't pay for weapons with stats, because that would be against the point of a sub MMO, that would be F2P wherein Yoshida has already stated he would close the game before it got to that point.
2. We don't pay for gear with stats, because that would be against the point of a sub MMO, that would be F2P wherein Yoshida has already stated he would close the game before it got to that point.
3. You pay a sub and you do get items? Actually, the sub is more of a pass to pay the game for that month, really. You could pay $15, and not get anything out of it if you really wanted.
4. If you can afford to buy all the emotes and mounts in the game, why are you then complaining about a $24 mount or $15 hair/outfit bundle if you can afford all the emotes and mounts which would amount to a total of 120 emotes, and 80 mounts, which totals to $840 for emotes and $960 for mounts, for a grand total of $1,800. You'd be absolutely okay with paying $1,800 instead of paying less than that over a course of 4~ years?
5. So all the good stuff is not in the achievements? Let me remind you, we don't have GC Warsteeds on the Mog Station, we don't have the ADS mounts on the Mog Station, we don't have the Yokai mounts on the Mog Station, we don't have the GARO mounts on the Mog Station, we don't have the tank mounts on the Mog Station. There's a lot of stuff ALREADY rewarded from achievements that is apparently, as you put it, "not the good stuff"...
6. Raiding is optional, but the gear has weight to it, as opposed to Lv1 glamour gear...
7. Leveling is optional... if you want to be forever stuck at whatever level you're at.

You don't make a strong counterpoint at all... strawmen are only good if they actually make a point. Your point is that because VANITY items are available on the Mog Station at a premium, that things with WEIGHT to them, that are a core part of an MMORPG's system, should be on the Mog Station for a premium, as if they were a vanity item.

Sorry... what was the argument again? That pretty bow for my hair is on the Mog Station, so the entire game should be?

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Originally Posted by Ririta

That's .001% too much imo

The one thing that I've ever wanted would cost me 30$, more expensive than the game and more expensive than a full game on Steam.

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RRP for AAA games is $60 for home console or PC, $40 for handhelds. Indie games are an entire different category to AAA games, let alone an AAA MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Sure, we can take out the cash shop, but your sub fee goes up to $100 a month.

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Even with 2% inflation over the last 50 years, with a base subscription of 15 dollar you'd end up at 38 dollar.
If we go for more realistic 10 years (because MMOs weren't a thing 50 years ago), the base subscription would go from 15 to 18 dollar.

Meanwhile, the technological progress constantly reduces the price per performance unit, whether that's storage, connection or processing speed.

You aren't paying for the product there, you're paying for the executives new cars.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

May I ask why? You mention that content "should" be earned in-game, and that we are paying for a "FULL membership," but what are those points based on? Because Square Enix doesn't need to make more money? I mean, granted, but so what? By what argument "should" all this be free? You act like that's an inherent truth, but that's not the case.

Now, I think your point about customer satisfaction is strong, and important. If they charge too much and it drives people away, that's bad, both from a business and a customer perspective. However, that doesn't seem to be happening, at least not yet. But I don't think it's wise to conflate "I don't like that I have to pay for this" with "I shouldn't have to pay for this." The first is a valid argument, even though everyone seems to be afraid to just say that. The second is kind of nonsense.

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I think what they're wanting to say is that part of the appeal of Pay to Play MMO's for so many years was that you only payed once a month and had the chance to obtain everything the game had to offer without a cash shop. It really made the game as a whole feel much better and more cost effective compared to F2P variants.

This game I feel has kind of over done the glamour aspect of cash shops as well as emotes. In FFXI and FFXIV 1.0, you could always reobtain event gear the following year in-game, but now you have to pay money if you missed out that one year which is already a downgrade compared to the past. Even FFXIV 2.0 was like this at first but they changed it and started charging us for old gear that was made for basic events.

SE charging 30$ for a mount and 7$ per emote is hella pricey with their other costs being high as well. 15$ gets you an outfit and a hairstyle, but is that really the price of something that cost more than a single 12.99$ sub? All in all, they definitely deserve criticism with how they've been implementing this cash shop from price alone and charging us for old event items with steep prices in comparison to the sub. You don't even get to have these items on all of your characters which is even more steep.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

I think what they're wanting to say is that part of the appeal of Pay to Play MMO's for so many years was that you only payed once a month and had the chance to obtain everything the game had to offer without a cash shop. It really made the game as a whole feel much better and more cost effective compared to F2P variants.

This game I feel has kind of over done the glamour aspect of cash shops as well as emotes. In FFXI and FFXIV 1.0, you could always reobtain event gear the following year in-game, but now you have to pay money if you missed out that one year which is already a downgrade compared to the past. Even FFXIV 2.0 was like this at first but they changed it and started charging us for old gear that was made for basic events.

SE charging 30$ for a mount and 7$ per emote is hella pricey with their other costs being high as well. 15$ gets you an outfit and a hairstyle, but is that really the price of something that cost more than a single 12.99$ sub? All in all, they definitely deserve criticism with how they've been implementing this cash shop from price alone and charging us for old event items with steep prices in comparison to the sub. You don't even get to have these items on all of your characters which is even more steep.

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Granted, this isn't the way things used to be, but that doesn't make it inherently wrong. Square Enix is offering goods and services, and it's your choice whether to buy them or not. I just think "we didn't used to have to pay for this" is a weak argument. If enough people say "we won't pay for this and will stop paying for your game at all" that it seems like they're actually coming out behind by offering these items at these prices, that should convince them. But it's not a debate that can be won on principle, because the principles are entirely arbitrary.

Every time you buy something from the cash shop a baby moogle dies.

I do not know about you OP, but I am happy to have gotten that new knight armor. I have been waiting so long for it and I thank the Dev team for atleast giving me a chance to get it. When it becomes pay to win then I will join you on our endless rants, but until that time..

I agree with you OP and I am always kind of amazed how people still defend SE in this way. I am kinda waiting for the day when they will push the line too much and will lose lots of people over it. I like this game or I would not be playing it but I also find my interest fading over this past months since I kinda got the feelings that they see us more and more as nothing than cash cows that can be milked without any consequences. (And sadly I have a ingame friend that is really a big FF fan..he even purchased every merchandise for FF14 and yet even he gets tired about it..)

Its not only that we get more and more stuff into the cash shop..no its even getting more and more expensive..and this happens in sub MMO. On top of that with SE being a big company and us having no way to know how the money is used is not making this better. (Lets be truthful..someone standing there and saying that its used to upgrade the servers or get the EU servers...first we dont even know if that is true, they could tell us anything and as long as we dont have the numbers ourself and see how they distribute their budget we wont know for 100% if that is the truth and I am sorry but I cant just accept anything they say as a fact after having them going back about timers for housing and other stuff..also lets not forget how that might be even a bad sign for the game itself. If they can only upgrade servers which is probably necessary for MMO that wants to run for a long time, by selling exclusive stuff..well doesnt that mean that the game itself is not running well?)

I also dont really know what do think about glamour being so pricey to make for them..I mean if its only possible to create Kryles outfit for the whole races (I mean this is a outfit that already exists ingame) and sell it in the cash shop if lots of people buy it (and that at the prices that they have right now for clothes..)..what exactly are they doing? I played an MMO before where you only needed to pay for the game itself but not a sub..yet a complete and detailed costume set with a weapon only did cost around 30€ there but you could also only purchase parts of the costume for less money. Yet this was a game that needed the cash shop to survive..if creating a costume really costs that much, how are games like that even surviving?

There is already quite a number of achievement exclusive gear/items and some of the best stuff is from in game. I personally don't care about copying a story characters outfit so I have interest in buying any of the mogstation stuff. Best glamour to me is dungeon loot. Also don't mind seeing older event items purchasable for a small fee if you weren't around to get them during it. If anything it gives those older items a bit of value if you had been subbed to obtain it. I missed a few outfits myself, would love to have em but not enough to but it.

0 in game power being sold which is the way it should remain.

Seems to be a good enough mix of mogstation/in game rewards imo. Most outfits not from events are character sets so if you want to be yda or cid guess you gotta pay. Only outfit I would buy would be yugiri and only if it had her hair... or red dress yda >.>

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Granted, this isn't the way things used to be, but that doesn't make it inherently wrong. Square Enix is offering goods and services, and it's your choice whether to buy them or not. I just think "we didn't used to have to pay for this" is a weak argument.

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Actually it's a perfectly valid argument.

If a company is charging a recurring fee for a service and then selectively starts removing features of that service specifically with the intent to add an additional charge to them then yes it's well within a consumer's rights to say "Hold on, something is wrong here."

In regards to seasonal event items this is something that is a rather large issue, whatever arguments you want to make for unique mounts, emotes, glamour items and recolors that are placed in the Mogstation are entirely different as you can make the case that while those items were developed for the game they were never actually implemented in the live version, meaning there never was an alternate way to obtain them.

In the case of seasonal event items however they are items that players with active subscriptions were able to acquire during their initial release and prior to the Mogstation were available annually upon the return of the event for those who may have missed them the first time. Now the case is that the only way to obtain those items if you were unsubbed or not playing at the time of the event is to pay a cash amount that may very well be equal or greater than your monthly subscription in addition to the amount you have to pay to play the game to begin with.

So yeah suddenly being charged for something you didn't used to before on top of a recurring service fee is a pretty big deal.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

If enough people say "we won't pay for this and will stop paying for your game at all" that it seems like they're actually coming out behind by offering these items at these prices, that should convince them. But it's not a debate that can be won on principle, because the principles are entirely arbitrary.

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The problem is that this is a black and white approach to a multifaceted issue.

Players who never experienced the event but want the items literally have no other alternatives if they want to acquire those seasonal rewards.

It would be one thing if the mog station sold previous seasonal items year round but the game allowed you to acquire the same items via in-game means for free during the following annual event, something that would actually be a fair compromise. You would see plenty of players willing to wait out the next year's event if it meant they had a shot at getting the items without having to buy them, while those who are less patient or simply dont mind spending the cash would have the freedom to buy them off the Mogstation ASAP.

The reality however is that the Mogstation is an all or nothing approach, either you got the item from the year's event or your only alternative is to buy it with cash for the rest of the lifetime of the game.

This also discounts that the majority of people are playing the game for reasons outside of the Mogstation.

I'm personally not going to drop my sub because the Mogstation is selling a Red Magitek mount or an various NPC glamours, I certainly wont buy them sure but my continued sub to the game doesn't mean that I personally approve of every single Mogstation addition. Just like people buying many of these items doesnt mean they agree with them being put up for sale to begin with. All it does show is that they have a desire to acquire those items, many of which have no alternate means of acquisition.

The way it is with SE (aside from old event items)

If they didn't make it for Mogstation, It wouldn't of been made at all. So there is no "Should of been an achivement or Quest Reward"
It was ONLY made reality as a Mog item.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

In regards to seasonal event items this is something that is a rather large issue, whatever arguments you want to make for unique mounts, emotes, glamour items and recolors that are placed in the Mogstation are entirely different as you can make the case that while those items were developed for the game they were never actually implemented in the live version, meaning there never was an alternative way to obtain them.

In the case of seasonal event items however they are items that players with active subscriptions were able to acquire during their initial release and prior to the Mogstation were available annually upon the return of the event for those who may have missed them the first time. Now the case is that the only way to obtain those items if you were unsubbed or not playing at the time of the event is to pay a cash amount that may very well be equal or greater than your monthly subscription in addition to the amount you have to pay to play the game to begin with.

So yeah suddenly being charged for something you didn't used to before on top of a recurring service fee is a pretty big deal.

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So if a company ever offers something for free, it can never decide to charge for it? How about raising prices? Is that allowed, or is it a problem because we're paying more than we used to before?

And I'm sorry if having "literally no other alternatives" doesn't convince me. The "compromise" you suggest would completely cut the legs off of whatever revenue stream Square Enix is trying to create. One of the main reasons for charging for old event items is to incentivize players to stay subscribed. Your proposal would remove both that incentive and the incentive to buy older items, effectively making the whole thing moot.

I understand that this system costs players money and the previous system did not. I too would prefer if everything was free. Who wouldn't? But you're taking a stand on principle when the debate is purely economic. Your argument boils down to "I don't want to pay for this" - which, again, is an economic argument. So make that argument.

If you're not going to unsubscribe if they offer optional items you won't pay for, then what exactly is your angle here? If the items are optional, and you won't buy them, so what?

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Originally Posted by Nihonnick

The way it is with SE (aside from old event items)

If they didn't make it for Mogstation, It wouldn't of been made at all. So there is no "Should of been an achivement or Quest Reward"
It was ONLY made reality as a Mog item.

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Not true. You mention that this is how it is with SE and yet, FFXI continued to release new holiday event items and with each passing event you were able to obtain them if you missed out, all without having to pay extra.

This isn't a Square Enix thing, it's a Final Fantasy XIV 2.0 thing.

I don't see this as entitlement and I wholeheartedly agree. A lot of mog station items strike me as things worth earning. Or, what I've seen other Chinese/Korean mmos do, is to have it as both. Like the dyes.

I could pay $30 for a mount, or I could spend a sub period maxing out all Mog beast tribe quests. Having both wont hurt because there will be someone out there to just pay for the thing instead of working for it. Mentorship comes to mind as well. Getting that mount is a pain because it means hundreds of dungeon runs and wouldn't be obtainable in a single sub period unless you had 0 life outside of the game and could dedicate yourself to it day and night. Even if someone ran constant runs at 10 mins each, that's still equals 14 days of absolute continuous play with 0 break time or sleep. But it's still content to strive for and is obtainable within your own efforts in game. An alternate skin of it could be pay to get, but the color variation would make it a clear indicator as to who worked for it and who bought it.

Person/s go to Theme/Rollercoaster Park: "I/we paid $60 a person to get in! What do you mean food and drink isn't free?! I HAVE to pay for merchandise as well?!? I HAVE to pay to play games?!? This is highway robbery!!"

Person/s join country club (golf course membership) : "I STILL have to pay for food and drink?!? I STILL have to pay greens fees?!?" (charge for actually playing golf on the course)

The complaints about mogstation sound just as ridiculous to me as the above.

Just because you paid to get access doesn't mean there will not be any other charges.

I don't recall if it's been brought up before but another reason we see this stuff come to the cash shop besides the fact that Mog Station items have their own dev team and budget and SE oversight, is that in the case of items released to Korean and Chinese versions of the game, it's made available there and in that manner due to contractual/legal obligations in those countries, and putting them on the cash shop is the only way they can make it fair for all players in all territories.

But no one is going to read or appreciate that fact. There are two kinds of customers in this world, the reasonable people who understand that they're getting exactly what they're paying for, and the people who believe paying a company money to access their servers entitles them to dictate development and budgetary decisions.

The Cancel Subscription button is a few tabs to the left of the Optional Items tab. If you hate cash shop exclusive items that much, there's the door. Tell SE with your wallets.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Person/s go to Theme/Rollercoaster Park: "I/we paid $60 a person to get in! What do you mean food and drink isn't free?! I HAVE to pay for merchandise as well?!? I HAVE to pay to play games?!? This is highway robbery!!"

Person/s join country club (golf course membership) : "I STILL have to pay for food and drink?!? I STILL have to pay greens fees?!?" (charge for actually playing golf on the course)

The complaints about mogstation sound just as ridiculous to me as the above.

Just because you paid to get access doesn't mean there will not be any other charges.

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You're comparing digital items to physical items, but let's roll with that for a second.

Imagine if you were at a Theme Park and water came free and was that way for over 10 years, then out of nowhere they charge you 5$ per bottle of water one day you show up. Wouldn't you first reaction be "what the?".

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Originally Posted by Talraen

So if a company ever offers something for free, it can never decide to charge for it? How about raising prices? Is that allowed, or is it a problem because we're paying more than we used to before?

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You're misrepresenting the point.

If a company goes "This is our service and this is what is included in our service charge" and then starts taking items out of that package for no reason than to charge separately for them you can be sure there will be consumer blowback.

In fact its the exact reason that when cable, internet, and phone providers update their packages for new subscribers they dont go back and ninja the customers on existing plans, they keep them as they were for previous subscribers, because thats what they signed up for (also contracts but y'know).

So can they decide to charge for it? Sure, they can.

Most companies however deem the practice unethical (lol they don't want to deal with the blowback) so they don't do it and consumers have the right to voice an opinion if they disagree with the service.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

And I'm sorry if having "literally no other alternatives" doesn't convince me. The "compromise" you suggest would completely cut the legs off of whatever revenue stream Square Enix is trying to create. One of the main reasons for charging for old event items is to incentivize players to stay subscribed. Your proposal would remove both that incentive and the incentive to buy older items, effectively making the whole thing moot.

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Except that it costs them nothing on the development end to re-issue annual event items, I'm not talking about events that were deemed exclusive like the "Lightning Returns", Dragon Quest, or Yokai Watch crossovers.

Allowing players to re-obtain seasonal event items in-game was something this game allowed before the Mogstation, it was a feature of the game one could count under what their subscription covered. Then when the next year came around suddenly the vendors no longer provided those items and you could "look forward" to them being charged for an additional fee on the Mogstation.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I understand that this system costs players money and the previous system did not. I too would prefer if everything was free. Who wouldn't? But you're taking a stand on principle when the debate is purely economic. Your argument boils down to "I don't want to pay for this" - which, again, is an economic argument. So make that argument.

If you're not going to unsubscribe if they offer optional items you won't pay for, then what exactly is your angle here? If the items are optional, and you won't buy them, so what?

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You're once again misrepresenting the point, either that or you simply don't understand it (which is okay).

The argument isn't "I dont want to pay for this!"

The argument is "Why am I suddenly paying an additional fee for something I didn't have to before?"

Am i required to buy items off of the Mogstation? of course not, hence why i don't.

But if I'm paying a monthly fee for something and over time have been led to expect certain things where included under the umbrella of that monthly fee, as a consumer it is within my right to disagree or voice an opinionm if the company wants to remove some of those items and charge me additionally for them instead.

You're saying "well speak with your wallet" but i dont play the game for the items on the mogstation so outside of not buying them already (which i dont) unsubbing wont really say anything.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Except that it costs them nothing on the development end to re-issue annual event items,

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How do you know this? Are you on the FFXIV development team?

Considering MMO sub prices have stayed constant for the last 20 years, a cash shop or increased sub pricing is the only way for them to continue. People would quit in droves if a sub suddenly went from 12.99-14.99/mo to 24.99-34.99/mo.

Any of you saying otherwise are delusional.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

You're comparing digital items to physical items, but let's roll with that for a second.

Imagine if you were at a Theme Park and water came free and was that way for over 10 years, then out of nowhere they charge you 5$ per bottle of water one day you show up. Wouldn't you first reaction be "what the?".

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Uh are you talking about drinking water or water used in a water park for attractions? Pretty sure bottles of water are usually sold and not handed for free but who knows.

If you mean attraction water well that would be more like the games content. Dungeons, fates, raids, crafting etc. Guess what, that comes with your entry (sub) fee. They are charging for 100% optional glamour items in a way similar to food and drinks at a theme park. Funny enough I would probably get more enjoyment out of a $10 outfit then a $10 pretzel.

Edit: It always amuses me that people will pay insane amounts of money to see a movie in theaters where you get maybe 2 hours of enjoyment and you actually enjoying said movie isn't guaranteed, But for extras being charged in game suddenly it is a horrible thing. I don't splurge in any way on cash shops but don't consider them an evil unless it starts invading the core game. When that time comes I be grabbing my torch and pitchfork with the rest of the mob.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

You're comparing digital items to physical items, but let's roll with that for a second.

Imagine if you were at a Theme Park and water came free and was that way for over 10 years, then out of nowhere they charge you 5$ per bottle of water one day you show up. Wouldn't you first reaction be "what the?".

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Have you ever been to Cedar Point? Water used to be free there. Now it's sold. Though you can still get water from fountains. Times change. No part of business operates in complete stasis.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Have you ever been to Cedar Point? Water used to be free there. Now it's sold. Though you can still get water from fountains. Times change. No part of business operates in complete stasis.

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This metaphor is incredibly apt, considering we're playing Final Fantasy: The Theme Park.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Have you ever been to Cedar Point? Water used to be free there. Now it's sold. Though you can still get water from fountains. Times change. No part of business operates in complete stasis.

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And thats what I'm proposing with both but not entirely equal

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Yes, but then there's no reason to buy it if it can be obtained in game.

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I don't think you're getting the point. All the dyes on Mog Staton can be obtained in game. You just can't sell the MS ones. But. As I just said, they're in game too. What's the point of buying the red magitek on MS when the original is in game? It's just a reskin... and can fly. But the original, by all means, can be received for free in game. They're both very well the same, just not equal.

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

How do you know this? Are you on the FFXIV development team?

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Nope, don't need to be.

The assets were already created and budgeted or they wouldn't have been in the previous year's event, they already exist. The code, the ID strings, the NPC dialogue are all there. Unless you're going to say that the entire game is continuously operating at a loss to the point that creating and reissuing event items is what's keeping them in the black?

Not likely or we would have seen a massive merging of servers as i can assure you those are costing the developers far more money than a broomstick mount.

I also know this because had you paid attention to the post in full you would realize that the practice of reissuing event items is one they used to do, interestingly enough it's also a practice almost every single subscription based MMO on the market continues to do.

So unless SE is doing something massively wrong... then no. It costs them nothing to re-issue annual event items.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

If a company goes "This is our service and this is what is included in our service charge" and then starts taking items out of that package for no reason than to charge separately for them you can be sure there will be consumer blowback.

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Can you show me where Square Enix ever said that? They used to give people a second chance at seasonal items, now they don't. There was no formal policy in place for the former, nor the latter. What basis do you have for assuming they would remain free forever?

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Originally Posted by Ryel

In fact its the exact reason that when cable, internet, and phone providers update their packages for new subscribers they dont go back and ninja the customers on existing plans, they keep them as they were for previous subscribers, because thats what they signed up for (also contracts but y'know).

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Contracts are kind of important in this case, since they are literally the reason this happens at all.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

So can they decide to charge for it? Sure, they can.

Most companies however deem the practice unethical (lol they don't want to deal with the blowback) so they don't do it and consumers have the right to voice an opinion if they disagree with the service.

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No company considers charging for something unethical. Because if they did, they would go out of business pretty quickly. Companies split off products that were previously included in a package, or stop giving things away for free, all the time.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Allowing players to re-obtain seasonal event items in-game was something this game allowed before the Mogstation, it was a feature of the game one could count under what their subscription covered. Then when the next year came around suddenly the vendors no longer provided those items and you could "look forward" to them being charged for an additional fee on the Mogstation.

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If you counted on that to be part of your subscription, that's on you. That was never promised. And they gave subscribers a chance to get every item from 1.0 before they started charging for anything.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

The argument is "Why am I suddenly paying an additional fee for something I didn't have to before?"

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That's not an argument, that's misunderstanding how business works. And besides, you're not paying an additional fee, since you indicated you don't buy the cash shop items. What they have done is stop offering something they used to offer for free. Much like they stopped offering the original version of Diadem, or the entirety of 1.0 (which free for some time before they started charging for it, I might add). It's their game, they can do that, and every user should expect it. One day they'll shut down the servers and everything you ever earned or even paid for will be gone.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

And thats what I'm proposing with both but not entirely equal

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Yes, but then there's no reason to buy it if it can be obtained in game.

Here's the issue. It costs money to create content. That we can all agree on. Looking back to the Theme Park and water example. The park can continue to hand out free water in cups, but the issue is they're giving away the cups for that water, and those cups are not obtained for free, they have a price. So should the park just write those cups off as an expense, or charge for it to increase profits. Most would; and do, now charge for that cup.

So transposing that over to XIV, if it costs more to create extra content, where then would you suppose the coverage of those costs would come from if everything can be obtained in game? If you increase the monthly sub cost, you drive customers away. If you add it as DLC/Mogstore people get angry sure, but typically stick around.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

I don't think you're getting the point. All the dyes on Mog Staton can be obtained in game. You just can't sell the MS ones. But. As I just said, they're in game too. What's the point of buying the red magitek on MS when the original is in game? It's just a reskin... and can fly. But the original, by all means, can be received for free in game. They're both very well the same, just not equal.

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You're right, I'm not sure I'm getting your point. = /

The dyes at best are extremely random to obtain in game. And even though you may get one, there is no certainty that it's the one you are after. So adding them to MS eases that if you have that extra change to throw at SE.

And I might be wrong on this point so please do correct me if I'm wrong, but the Red and White Magitechs; while they are in the game, are no longer obtainable. Therefore were added to MS to give those that missed their chance to get them, so they could have the chance to have them, albeit at a cost.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

You're comparing digital items to physical items, but let's roll with that for a second.

Imagine if you were at a Theme Park and water came free and was that way for over 10 years, then out of nowhere they charge you 5$ per bottle of water one day you show up. Wouldn't you first reaction be "what the?".

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Well there is a big difference. Water is something we need to survive. We NEED it. That is like selling provoke in the cash shop.


The more appropriate argument is something we want, like saying there is a shirt the theme park gave for free for years and then all of a sudden started to give out a new shirt. The old shirt would be placed in a shop where it was still purchasable. While this may be unfair for those who did not get the shirt, they were still given the same amount of time for those who did get it for free. They are also given the chance to get the shirt for currency and still have the chance of getting the new shirt for free.

Really...everyone wins. The regulars get a new shirt every year or so, the company makes money from the old shirts, and the new goers have the opportunity of buying the old shirts they missed out on.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Can you show me where Square Enix ever said that? They used to give people a second chance at seasonal items, now they don't. There was no formal policy in place for the former, nor the latter. What basis do you have for assuming they would remain free forever?

If you counted on that to be part of your subscription, that's on you. That was never promised. And they gave subscribers a chance to get every item from 1.0 before they started charging for anything

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If you're asking for a clause in the ToS or the EULA then no you won't find one.

But generally the practice you're asking about falls under consumer-business goodwill. That the expectation, quality, and cost of services rendered wont suddenly change.

It's the same reason players don't expect them to suddenly start charging for any other number of game interactions that we currently have access to even though they technically could, according to the ToS and EULA nothing really stops them, they have the option should they wish. However we dont expect them to start charging for raids resets (some free to play games actually do charge for this) or various other game features, because we pay a recurring subscription. It's one of the draws of the game itself.

Its part of the subscription based MMO model.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

No company considers charging for something unethical. Because if they did, they would go out of business pretty quickly. Companies split off products that were previously included in a package, or stop giving things away for free, all the time.

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And it doesn't always work, you know why?

Because people speak up about it or take their business elsewhere.

If everyone just shrugged their shoulders anytime it happened it would be far more commonplace. Its why we give feedback, surely such a concept isn't that foreign is it?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

That's not an argument, that's misunderstanding how business works. And besides, you're not paying an additional fee, since you indicated you don't buy the cash shop items. What they have done is stop offering something they used to offer for free. Much like they stopped offering the original version of Diadem, or the entirety of 1.0 (which free for some time before they started charging for it, I might add). It's their game, they can do that, and every user should expect it. One day they'll shut down the servers and everything you ever earned or even paid for will be gone.

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In all honesty it doesn't affect me, I have the items, I was there for the events.

But judging by the thread it effects other people, and as a consumer I can speak up for and agree with them as well.

When I used the quote for the statement of the argument I don't mean myself personally, but it is an illustration of what the situation actually is. And it's not about whether or not you take something with you when the servers shut down or what content is no longer in the game but the user experience and consumer/business interaction.

SE as a company wont know what is and isn't okay if people don't give feedback on the matter, which is... exactly what I'm doing. I'm not sure how you haven't picked up this point across 3 posts, it hasn't exactly been subtle.

But if you wish to sit there and say "Well it's fine the way it is!" then by all means continue to do so, that's your right as a consumer, just as it's mine to disagree with the practice.

This thread is so full of back and forth circle jerk it's ridiculous. These threads pop up with every new cash shop addition too. Aren't everyones arms tired yet? It's really quiet simple. SE is a business, they are in it to make a profit, and the cash shop obviously works because the stuff sells. I see TONS of the cash shop items being used in game every day. It's not going to change any time soon and SE isn't getting rid of the cash shop or scaling it down at all. Might as well get used to it or just quit if it upsets you that much.

I hate the cash shop as well but putting your thread in all caps just makes you look like a tool if anything.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

SE as a company wont know what is and isn't okay if people don't give feedback on the matter, which is... exactly what I'm doing. I'm not sure how you haven't picked up this point across 3 posts, it hasn't exactly been subtle.

But if you wish to sit there and say "Well it's fine the way it is!" then by all means continue to do so, that's your right as a consumer, just as it's mine to disagree with the practice.

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Exactly. You all might be okay with getting less than before for your subscription, but don't expect everyone to share that sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

(a bunch of good stuff)

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I'm not going to comb through the EULA, but I think we've both made our points here. I do want to clarify that I have no issue with people complaining about the cash shop, or being unhappy with it. It just bothers me that people try to make it into an ethical argument. All that does is escalate things and divide people. I think we'd all be better off if we were just honest about what we want, particularly with ourselves.