Why Can't WHM Have An Enmity Lowering Stance?

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Originally Posted by enthauptet

They had to add enmity reduction to AST because it was having so many problems compared to how easy reduction is on WHM with shroud. SCH doesn't have the issue since half their enmity is split to the fairy.

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I am not being aggressive with this I just want to know how AST had trouble with enmity. To my knowledge they always had Luminiferous Aether which is better than Shroud in the first half of a fight. What was the problem with AST heals that made them give so much aggro?

Pls someone respond I actually want the answer.

How are people saying this is fair? A WHM has no way of maximizing their DPS output without hampering the tanks DPS. Neither of the other healers have this. Both AST and SCH are capable of pushing out some decent personal DPS since their aggro kits are hean and shoulders above the other two at the start. Tank wanting to pull in DPS stance using a Ninja shadwalker? Sure, easy to do with an AST or a SCH. A AST is gonna provide a ton of DPS due to card boosts and a SCH broiling after its opener is also gonna not endanger themselves at all while doing damage. Now a WHM? When they go ham after keeping the party sustained, I have to stop near the end of fight or flight. How is this fair? The healer thats burst honestly isn't that much higher than the output of an AST card cannot play to their maximized potential. Either they stop themselves, or I have to hold back. No other class has this, and I play the best class for maintaining constant aggro. It's plain not fair.

Also, who said ASTs needed a reduction stance? Before the buffs they were shittier WHMs and still had Luminiferous Aether. I also want to know what they did that needed such DRASTIC aggro reduction tools, since mathematically it didn't work or AST players just sucked.

SE could just lower WHM's dps power then enmity problem is solved :P

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

SE could just lower WHM's dps power then enmity problem is solved :P

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Trueeee but they already bring the lowest PARTY DPS to the table. This would just make WHM even rarer in raid content.

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Originally Posted by Velcan

I am not being aggressive with this I just want to know how AST had trouble with enmity. To my knowledge they always had Luminiferous Aether which is better than Shroud in the first half of a fight. What was the problem with AST heals that made them give so much aggro?

Pls someone respond I actually want the answer.

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okay, i'll try my best xD

Luminifeous Aether reduces the enmity you generate for 24 seconds by half and has a 120 seconds cooldown.
Shroud of Saints reduces your current enmity by half and has also a 120 seconds cooldown.

for better comparsion i just assume that every GCD 100 enmity is generatet (the potencys of WHM and AST, at least for healing, are mostly the same anyway).

120 seconds are 48 GCDs.
24 seconds are 9,6 GCDs, but lets just say 10, wich is wrong, but sounds better than 9, and it's a bonus for the AST for our comparsion ^^
sooo...

a 10 min fight?

AST aggro:
10 casts with lumi aether for 50 enmity are 500 enmity, another 38 casts for 100 enmity are 3800 enmity, together 4300 enmity in 2 mins.
after the 2 mins lumi aether is back from cd and you wll generate another 4300 enmity in the next 2 mins. that's 8600 enmity after 4 mins, 12900 after 6 mins, 17200 enmity after 8 mins and 21500 enmity at the end of the fight.

WHM aggro:
48 casts for 100 enmity are 4800 enmity after 2 mins. reduced by half 2400 enmity.
another 48 casts in the next 2 mins are again 4800 enmity, 2400 + 4800 are 7200, reduced by half 3600 enmity after 4 mins, 4200 after 6 mins, 4500 after 8 mins and 4650 enmity at the end of the fight.

yes, WHM generates more enmity than AST, so the numbers are not absolute correct, but the difference is not that big and i just wanted to compare the 2 skills.

WHM spikes higher with 4800, but if you use shroud after 1 min instead of 2, you get 60/2,5=24x100=2400/2=1200 enmity after 1 min (AST is at 1900 after 1 min), another 2400 enmity in the next minute, together 3600 enmity after 2 mins. AST stays at 4300 enmity...

Shroud of Saints >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luminifeous Aether
and that's why AST needs an enmity lowering stance and WHM don't

That's fascinating and all Tint, but the problem lies all in the first minute or two of the fight. Which is where the crux of the problem lies. And shroud being better at the end is irrelevant when aggro is flying out the ass at the start. NOONE should have problems with aggro near the point. But the opening when WHMs can pull off a 3k DPS opener? Nah man, Shroud is fucked for that.

What content are you even talking about? In normal / expert dungeons you barely need any healing, so your aggro will be much lower than the DPS'. If you're having aggro issues in savage raids then you're probably doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

SE could just lower WHM's dps power then enmity problem is solved :P

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Are you trying to kill WHM?

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Originally Posted by Tint

AST got the enmity lowering stance later, because AST had much more trouble with enmity than WHM ever had...

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It's funny because, the reason why they drew so much enmity in the first place was because of healing spam due to lower potency heals. Yet after they buffed their enmity control, they buffed their healing potency so the extra healing which made them aggro monsters in the first place was solved....All it did was give AST massively unneeded aggro control.

Same with their MP. The buffed Luminiferous Aether was taking into account the lower potency healing, yet after their potencies were buffed, and they didn't have to heal as much, they just have massively unneeded MP restoration.

AST is a mess and SE really doesn't seem to know what to do with it.

It's the tank's fault if they lose agro to a healer. Granted, WHM has respectable burst damage, but compared to casters like BLM and SMN, if a tank can't keep agro from WHM DPS, they're going to have big troubles down the road.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of thought into it. If you're DPSing and keeping everyone on their feet, you are doing your job.

You are missing the whole point Gemina. WHM just straight up CANNOT use their burst a the opening which is where they would inflict the most damage. It doesn't matter how hard I'm hitting even with shadewalker on me, I won't hold the boss when Velcan does his burst opener and I'm in Sword Oath. "just use shield oath" you may say, but that's not necessary if he plays SCH or AST. HE can go full blast on those while I'm in sword oath, but not in sword oath. How is that fair?

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Originally Posted by Daranion

You are missing the whole point Gemina. WHM just straight up CANNOT use their burst a the opening which is where they would inflict the most damage. It doesn't matter how hard I'm hitting even with shadewalker on me, I won't hold the boss when Velcan does his burst opener and I'm in Sword Oath. "just use shield oath" you may say, but that's not necessary if he plays SCH or AST. HE can go full blast on those while I'm in sword oath, but not in sword oath. How is that fair?

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Stop lying. Most DPS jobs have a higher burst than WHM.

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

Stop lying. Most DPS jobs have a higher burst than WHM.

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Didn't you know? WHM has more burst than BLM.

You guys are forgetting the fact that DPS have Quelling strikes which makes the burst enmity in the opener lower than WHM.

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Originally Posted by Velcan

You guys are forgetting the fact that DPS have Quelling strikes which makes the burst enmity in the opener lower than WHM.

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This thread is getting to a point where it's either an 10/10 false flag or just hilariously stupid.

But he's absolutely right! A regen on the tnak ot prevent the need for heals and then going all out with DPS spell while the party boosts damage and using PoM, a WHM WILL rip aggro. Have you ever done a 3k opener as WHM with regen on? You'd know it's only possible to hold hate with a ninja smokescreening the WHM AND boosting the tank and even then it's manageable. The tank would have to go into tank stance without all that when it's just plain old not necessary with the other healers. WHM is just too damn bursty with no way to shed that hate outside of their shroud which only shines later in the fight. But for optimal openers? It's just not fair

I like trains.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

But he's absolutely right! A regen on the tnak ot prevent the need for heals and then going all out with DPS spell while the party boosts damage and using PoM, a WHM WILL rip aggro. Have you ever done a 3k opener as WHM with regen on? You'd know it's only possible to hold hate with a ninja smokescreening the WHM AND boosting the tank and even then it's manageable. The tank would have to go into tank stance without all that when it's just plain old not necessary with the other healers. WHM is just too damn bursty with no way to shed that hate outside of their shroud which only shines later in the fight. But for optimal openers? It's just not fair

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Can you tell me this optimal WHM opener you're talking about? Also how fast is the WHM getting the aggro? Instantly? After 5 seconds? After 10?

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Originally Posted by Daranion

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so at first... there is this never ending discussion if healers should dps or not... now we are on the point that whms shouldn't dps on pull (with reg, med2, stoneskin, and aoe ground heal to give themselves the timewindow to do so) cause the main tank has to be in tank stance (what is actual their job?!) to stand this amount of enmity?... Accelerating is just right:

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This thread is getting to a point where it's either an 10/10 false flag or just hilariously stupid.

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You seem to be misunderstanding. I'm not saying the healer SHOULDN'T DPS. Quite the opposite. I'm saying that WHM get unfairly shafted in teams trying to push out as much damage as possible since either the WHM or the tank can go all out, This is a situation unique to the WHM and quite unfair. I know it's the tanks job to hold aggro, but if it's possible to be even better then you should. We're just trying to get some sort of solution for both the WHM AND the tank to enjoy a full powered opener, rather than one holding the other back

This is the opener for a fight where you have to get close to the boss. You have to pop sprint at around the 8 second mark, regen at around 5 seconds, swap to cleric, start casting Aero 3 at the 3 second mark, cast aero 2, then start running toward the boss while casting Aero, and while you are waiting for your next GCD to come back pop presence of Mind and Fluid Aura. At this point you stone 3 until you see Trick Attack then assize so it always lines up with every other Trick Attack.(assuming you have a ninja if, not then just cast assize right after the first stone 3) At this point just keep up Aero 3 and 2 when they go off, and try to use Aero before you fluid Aura, presence of Mind, or just any of your OGCDs so you dont clip GCDs as much.

There is a stronger set up for bosses that dont move like Zurvan at the start and Refurbisher but ima only type it out if anyone even cares. This is all I do to pull off of PLDs in Sword oath, and DRKs that dont use Grit or Dark Arts a Power slash. I have never had one of these tanks hold against me for long in a heal intensive fight without these cooldowns cause as soon as heals are needed like in A12S mega holy storm at the start of the battle things get bad. You could say the tanks should just switch stances but if I were any other class the tanks would not have to switch stances.

I can see at a quick glance over your logs you're fairly well optimized for the fight. I personally don't see why you would have hate issues if you're popping Shroud at the junctures you are since it's a 50% hate shred. At the one log I saw in Refurbisher I did notice an abnormally high amount of overheal on Asylum and even 50% overheal on Medica II. It sort of feels like you might need to have Whispering Dawn handle more healing since there isn't a lot of AoE healing necessary for Refurbisher outside of Acid Rain + Panzerfaust during Full Metal Faust.

I would just say open the fight with your Warrior. They can maintain high initial DPS in tank stance due to Unchained and thus will giving the tanks a larger hate lead. If you're looking at total group DPS optimization, you're better off opening with WAR just because of Unchained + Berserk gives massively lovely enmity spikes. I'd also say have your SCH use Deployment Tactics more often since the one log I saw had zero deployment tactics and that'll just mean less healing requirement overall too. Take advantage of as many kits as possible to optimize for the group.

Just my 2 cents~ I will admit I'm in agreement with the vast majority of posters in the thread that I'm not sure why you're having enmity issues. As others have said, I also personally don't see a need for a passive -enmity on WHM when you have a 50% hate reduction but I do see based on the few logs I glazed over you're optimizing very well for CD usages so I feel it's just a matter of potentially just reducing your overheal and thus enmity and also making use of other toolkits to optimize the group as a whole.

You guys seriously taking into account random DRKs who refuse to turn Darkside on because 'it spends MP'?

^Well that's pretty much the opener I used and we never had any aggro issues. WHM's damage spike falls off pretty quickly after using Assize and Fluid Aura. Also there are barely any fights which require much healing in the beginning (except for a12 I guess? But that shouldn't really be that much of an issues either). Either your healers are overhealing like crazy or your tanks are generating too little aggro (and your DPS players are so bad that they can't take your shitty tank's aggro).
Edit: Looking at that posted a9s link pretty much proves my point that the DPS players are awful lul.

ty for the compliment. That might have just been a random group I was in I dont know how much my healer partner will heal sometimes they heal a lot and I end up overhealing, and sometimes they don't. But because I never know I just heal like i'm solo healing. Ironically the fights where the boss is immobile I never take aggro :/ (on a side note I need to check these logs cause I never know when they are updated randomly)
Edit: Oh I know that run I did not have aggro trouble on that one at all. plus that just happened to be a PF that I happened to find a pretty good SCH so I uploaded that one cause our DPS together was pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

^Either your healers are overhealing like crazy or your tanks are generating too little aggro (and your DPS players are so bad that they can't take your shitty tank's aggro).
Edit: Looking at that posted a9s link pretty much proves my point that the DPS players are awful lul.

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You have to keep in mind I don't have a static. I run stuff in random PFs and I run into huge numbers of DRK tanks THAT I SEE who complain about WHM in general cause it means they have to turn on grit I have been told on several occasions that I should not DPS just heal because I am a WHM. I know you are a good WHM with a good team to run with but I dont have that. All im trying to say is that I find it sad that a WHM has to work the hardest and smartest for the smallest pay out of the 3 healers.
Edit: Just making sure you get my point. I find randoms in PF. you will not find logs of the parties I complain about cause they were not clears in the first place. I am also sure almost every log you find in FFlogs will not have a WAR puling to start the fight.
Edit again: I also really want you to get this the main complaint is how WHM is treated different in PF they have the lowest party DPS, and the highest aggro anyways. It is not fair how you can find a random tank in PF not be able to hold against you cause you are a WHM, AND they use the fact that your a WHM against you.

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Originally Posted by Velcan

You have to keep in mind I don't have a static. I run stuff in random PFs and I run into huge numbers of DRK tanks THAT I SEE who complain about WHM in general cause it means they have to turn on grit I have been told on several occasions that I should not DPS just heal because I am a WHM. I know you are a good WHM with a good team to run with but I dont have that. All im trying to say is that I find it sad that a WHM has to work the hardest and smartest for the smallest pay out of the 3 healers.

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That isn't WHM's issue then, but tanks being not good enough to play with you. If you can easily steal a tanks aggro by just dpsing too much then any good dps player would get that aggro first. Have you ever seen a good BLM or MCH?

yes true it is the tank players I have been finding and yes I have seen good MCH, BLM, and Bards that maintain over 3k DPS but almost all of them have groups they run with anyways. I just find it kinda sad that if I were forced to play with that random PF tank I would have been fine if I were one of the other 2 healers.
Edit: Also just in case you missed it, I think you are a pretty awesome WHM who has some pretty good skills, and teammates. I'm off to bed now night.

Honestly, the only way you should be pulling aggro from a tank is if you overgear them or are overhealing. Some tanks don't realize if the group is taking needlessly high avoidable damage, it'll force the healer to spam healer more and therefor generate more aggro than they otherwise would.

Enmity Lowering Stance? I'd prefer a stance where they manipulate the HP bar. Such as increase it and fill it. Kind of like SCH shields but it increase max HP % rather than shield.

But yeah I understand the enmity issue with WHM when you don't have a good tank. Maybe use SoS when you see your enmity bar blinking in orange? Just like how DPs are using Quelling Strikes at the beginning of their opener, you use SoS depending on your enmity bar.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Just like how DPs are using Quelling Strikes at the beginning of their opener, you use SoS depending on your enmity bar.

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...never see randoms with QS but a lot of e-penis dds like "HA! FIRST on Enmity!!11 HA DMG" - especially Brds... which is kinda ironic cause they don't even need a xskill for that... but most likely it's a Brd who pulled first or will take the aggro in the opener ^^ (that's why I stopped Lightfarming after the 3rd Anima... can't stand these idiots... who can't give the tank 2 secs for his aggro-rota - its just massiv bullshit if every 2-3 run the opener-pull is messed up by a range-dd...)

@neela
Well... every guide says thet the first hit has to land with the first hit from the tank cause DPS!!!
Which is bullshit when you're not progressing but ppl read this and think "akai"

Every guide!
Of every class!

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Originally Posted by Neela

...never see randoms with QS but a lot of e-penis dds like "HA! FIRST on Enmity!!11 HA DMG" - especially Brds... which is kinda ironic cause they don't even need a xskill for that... but most likely it's a Brd who pulled first or will take the aggro in the opener ^^ (that's why I stopped Lightfarming after the 3rd Anima... can't stand these idiots... who can't give the tank 2 secs for his aggro-rota - its just massiv bullshit if every 2-3 run the opener-pull is messed up by a range-dd...)

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As a tank I'm 100% fine with someone else pulling. Just means we clear it faster. It's not like I wouldn't do my job and take the mobs, letting the dps die.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

As a tank I'm 100% fine with someone else pulling. Just means we clear it faster. It's not like I wouldn't do my job and take the mobs, letting the dps die.

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well having Faust in your grp for the first few seconds doesn't mean you will clear it faster - especially if the tank has problems to get Fausts ass of the Brds one without screaming ; ) Running in a grp for several hours where either the tank didn't solve his enmity loss in the beginning nor the Brd was empathy enough to wait with or reduce his opener (QS) was just a nightmare - giving the solo healer a hard night ^^'

Yeah since Creator Savage has been unlocked, I've even ripped off easy aggro just blasting Stone III on A9S Faust Z because of subpar DPS, add-in being a BiS WHM vs crappy Kinna weapon, non-melded tanks. This stuff didn't happen when it was on lockout because you had people who actually know how to pull correctly.

Even with good shroud use you'll sometimes get greedy tanks dropping tank stances and/or aggro combos when they don't have Ninja Shadewalker support on a pull so they don't start off with a large amount of threat, think it's cool to drop tank stance right away, but didn't bother to build it up enough with combos to keep threat. Add-in subpar DPS, you will quickly move to #1 on the threat.

You'll even see this in 24-man Dun Scaiths with tanks that don't know how to pull worth their life.

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Originally Posted by technole

Yeah since Creator Savage has been unlocked, I've even ripped off easy aggro just blasting Stone III on A9S Faust Z because of subpar DPS, add-in being a BiS WHM vs crappy Kinna weapon, non-melded tanks. This stuff didn't happen when it was on lockout because you had people who actually know how to pull correctly.

Even with good shroud use you'll sometimes get greedy tanks dropping tank stances and/or aggro combos when they don't have Ninja Shadewalker support on a pull so they don't start off with a large amount of threat, think it's cool to drop tank stance right away, but didn't bother to build it up enough with combos to keep threat. Add-in subpar DPS, you will quickly move to #1 on the threat.

You'll even see this in 24-man Dun Scaiths with tanks that don't know how to pull worth their life.

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exactly this ^